Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ithamar 07-09-07, 11:49 AM	Very simple question, though slightly more than a "Yes" or "No" would be appreciated. Will an antimagic field block any of the Orb or Lesser Orb spells from Complete Arcane / Spell Compendium?
Kobold Paladin 07-09-07, 12:02 PM	No if cast from outside the field entering it, yes if from within.
Dalthbar 07-09-07, 12:08 PM	And the reason is that when you cast the spell, you bring that element into existence and it's non-magical at that point. Then when you throw it, you're throwing a bunch of that "stuff" (though it's clear that this is where some people have an issue with the spell). So when that "stuff" (pending the specific spell) enters the AMF, it's non-magical and doesn't get dispelled.
jaelis 07-09-07, 12:09 PM	The relevant rule is The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result. The orb spells are, of course, instantaneous conjurations.
Thiez 07-09-07, 12:16 PM	The relevant rule is The orb spells are, of course, instantaneous conjurations. Thus RAW allows for nonmagical balls of [Force] (a nonmagical ball that affects things in another plane (ethereal) :))
jaelis 07-09-07, 12:23 PM	Well hey, AMF doesn't bring down a wall of force either, it's not like there's no precedent :)
Thiez 07-09-07, 12:26 PM	But Wall of Force is still *magic*. The Orb isn't.
jaelis 07-09-07, 12:47 PM	Hmm, you're saying that an orb of force is "nonmagical" in a way different from a wall of force? I don't think you are forced to interpret it that way. You could say the orb is still magical, but just by it's nature not subject to SR or AMFs. (Just as a wall of force is not.) Or I suppose you could say a wall of force is nonmagical. It radiates magic, but you could interpret that an effect of the ongoing spell. One could then imagine an instantaneous version of wall of force that created a nonmagical wall. I'd go with the first way, myself though.
Ithamar 07-09-07, 01:30 PM	Thanks for the answers, everyone. That is basically what I figured, but wanted to be sure. Secondary question, mainly related to secondary effects of the Orb spells, would the blinding, entangling or dazing effects still set in if the target is in an AMF? Seems like there is good reason to think so, but wasn't sure.
CantripN 07-09-07, 02:27 PM	Thanks for the answers, everyone. That is basically what I figured, but wanted to be sure. Secondary question, mainly related to secondary effects of the Orb spells, would the blinding, entangling or dazing effects still set in if the target is in an AMF? Seems like there is good reason to think so, but wasn't sure. Yup. Would still work.
thorofasgard13 07-09-07, 02:37 PM	No. It would wink out just as conjured animals and monsters do. I can't see how this conjured thing would stay while another conjured thing would go away.
CantripN 07-09-07, 02:45 PM	No. It would wink out just as conjured animals and monsters do. I can't see how this conjured thing would stay while another conjured thing would go away. It's an Instantaneous Conjuration, like Create Water. It just creates the stuff with magic. The stuff itself is perfectly natural - just odd.
Empiro 07-09-07, 05:12 PM	There's a good amount of debate, but my interpretation is that since an AMF blocks life of effect, you can't target an Orb inside or through an AMF. To put it an another way, if you cast create water into a cup and bring it into an AMF, the water doesn't disappear. You cannot, however, cast Create Water into a cup in an AMF (while standing outside), even though it's an instaneous conjuration. Ruling this way also significantly reduces the amount of cheesiness you can do with an AMF (shaping an AMF to exclude you and then casting orbs through). I think it fits the flavor of the orb spells much better too. i.e. Even though you have a non-magical ball of fire or force (!?), magic is still needed for that ball to remain coherent, and if it enters into an AMF, the orb kind of splatters in all directions, harming no one.
Nephlite 07-09-07, 05:16 PM	There's a good amount of debate, but my interpretation is that since an AMF blocks life of effect, you can't target an Orb inside or through an AMF. To put it an another way, if you cast create water into a cup and bring it into an AMF, the water doesn't disappear. You cannot, however, cast Create Water into a cup in an AMF, even though it's an instaneous conjuration. Ruling this way also significantly reduces the amount of cheesiness you can do with an AMF (shaping an AMF to exclude you and then casting orbs through). I think it fits the flavor of the orb spells much better too. i.e. Even though you have a non-magical ball of fire or force (!?), magic is still needed for that ball to remain coherent, and if it enters into an AMF, the orb kind of splatters in all directions, harming no one. Not 100% on topic: But wall of force blocks line of effect too: are you saying a Ring of Force Shield blocks the Orbs? It says it is a minature wall of force... Orbs are illogical though.
Empiro 07-09-07, 05:27 PM	Not 100% on topic: But wall of force blocks line of effect too: are you saying a Ring of Force Shield blocks the Orbs? It says it is a minature wall of force... Orbs are illogical though. It does not block line of effect to the wielder (it's too small). If it did, it would also protect you against pretty much anything (magic missile, dominate, power word: kill, etc), because all those spells require line of effect. To put it another way, if it blocked line of effect, we'd all be here discussing how overpowered Rings of Force Shield are. and orb spells would be the last thing on our mind.
Nephlite 07-09-07, 07:29 PM	It does not block line of effect to the wielder (it's too small). If it did, it would also protect you against pretty much anything (magic missile, dominate, power word: kill, etc), because all those spells require line of effect. To put it another way, if it blocked line of effect, we'd all be here discussing how overpowered Rings of Force Shield are. and orb spells would be the last thing on our mind. Maybe I'm the first to think this up? :D Yes, I have an ego.
Nezkrul 07-09-07, 09:44 PM	I don't know why plain as day written rules are so hard to understand. Antimagic Field ... The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result. and From Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium, the "Orb" line of spells has Duration: Instantaneous. Don't over think, or pick apart. All you do is begin to confuse yourself and others, and it requires more book keeping than is required.
runestar 07-09-07, 10:38 PM	I believe one can lob an orb of acid into an AMF. My rationale is this - if you can throw a flask of mundane acid at someone protected by an AMF, there should be nothing stopping one from doing the same with an orb of acid. They both really work on similar principles and mechanics.:)
jaelis 07-09-07, 10:58 PM	Hmm. Create water is an instantaneous conjuration (creation) spell. But I kind of doubt anyone would let you cast it so as to create the water inside an AMF. The orb spells do have the flavor of creating the orb at the caster's location, and then magically hurling it toward the target. But I suppose a DM would be in his rights to say that you hurl the "magic" at the target, and the orb is actually created there. With that logic, it would make sense for AMF to stop it.
Thiez 07-09-07, 11:12 PM	I believe one can lob an orb of acid into an AMF. My rationale is this - if you can throw a flask of mundane acid at someone protected by an AMF, there should be nothing stopping one from doing the same with an orb of acid. They both really work on similar principles and mechanics.:) Can I save orbs of Acid in a bottle, I wonder:)
runestar 07-09-07, 11:24 PM	Can I save orbs of Acid in a bottle, I wonder That would be some bottle...:)
Radiun 07-09-07, 11:26 PM	Can I save orbs of Acid in a bottle, I wonder:) You could, but would be embarrassed when such powerful acids ate through your glass bottle and left a "mess" on the front of your trousers...
Thiez 07-10-07, 08:34 AM	I'll just use some custom item based on Telekinesis/Mage Hand/Reverse Gravity/Prestidigitation (Acid has no listed weight...) that holds the Acid orb so it floats in midair ;) Now, to find a way to transmute the air so the acid won't react with it...
Leilond 07-10-07, 08:49 AM	The first issue that come to my mind is that "orb of force" cannot be thinked as "not magical". That is cleary wrong... a force effect is magical, noway to consider it another way The second issue is that AMF rules was written before the orb spells, and I think the problem is within the orb. Those spells started to create problems since the first day Starting from here we have to choose a ruling, pheraps an "house ruling" because if you follow RAW, a orb of FORCE pass throw an AMF and I cannot admit it
runestar 07-10-07, 09:01 AM	The second issue is that AMF rules was written before the orb spells, and I think the problem is within the orb. Those spells started to create problems since the first day Also, AMF might have been referring to another sort of instantaneous conjuration. I believe they were referring more specifically to spells such as gate or creation spells. This brings to mind another question. Melf's acid arrow is functionally similar to orb of acid, except that it has a duration over which it slowly deals damage. But because of this duration, it means that even the initial damage will not work in an AMF....:confused:
jaelis 07-10-07, 09:04 AM	Starting from here we have to choose a ruling, pheraps an "house ruling" because if you follow RAW, a orb of FORCE pass throw an AMF and I cannot admit it So what is your feeling about a wall of force?
Leilond 07-10-07, 09:45 AM	So what is your feeling about a wall of force? Wall of force isn't an "istantaneous" effect so, BY THE RAW cannot be casted into an AMF This greate incongruence make clear that, when they created the orb, the totally forgot the AMF I can admit that a "orb of acid" isn't magical. But how can a orb of fire burn without any fuel and no magical support? How can you call "not magical" a "orb of force"? I think that the creators of the orb spells totally missed the point here So, by the RAW, orb pass AMF My ruling, all orb has a special rule that say "These spell do not benefit of the rule that let istantaneous conjuration spell work inside an AMF" Pheraps (and only pheraps) I can delete this rule from "orb of acid" but surely not from "force", "fire", "electrical", "cold", "positive", "negative" and other energies that cannot exist without a "fuel" or "magic" Nor I admit a "orb of force" to pass spell resistence
jaelis 07-10-07, 09:54 AM	But the wall of force certainly can exist inside an AMF, if you create the wall first. I agree that you shouldn't be able to cast an orb spell into an AMF, but the common interpretation is that you create the orb at your location, and then project it into the AMF. Is that so different from moving an AMF onto a wall of force?
Leilond 07-10-07, 10:15 AM	But the wall of force certainly can exist inside an AMF, if you create the wall first. I agree that you shouldn't be able to cast an orb spell into an AMF, but the common interpretation is that you create the orb at your location, and then project it into the AMF. Is that so different from moving an AMF onto a wall of force? [/Quote] The difference is that in wall of force is plain written that ignore spells. Mage armor is a force effect, but it doesn't work in an AMF Magic missile is a force effect, but i doesn't work in an AMF All force effect that doesn't specify that ignore AMF are subjected to AMF A special rule never demostrate a general rule. It is the opposite. The fact that they need to write that force wall ignore spells, demostrate that the normal rules is different So, I still thing that, like all force effect (except those with special rule), orb of force cannot work inside an AMF nor can be casted outside and thrown inside It's an house rule, but I think that the other ruling is totally absurd and it's only a bad writing of people that forgot the AMF interaction The same for fire, cold, electrical, positive, negative and all other "things" that cannot "exist on their own" The acid is the only things that look like to be consistent working, that's the reason the "acid spalsh" and "acid arrow" are the only "ranged touch attacks" that ignore the SR in the PHB
jaelis 07-10-07, 10:28 AM	The difference is that in wall of force is plain written that ignore spells. Fair enough.
ArcTan 07-10-07, 04:34 PM	There's a difference between how it does work according to RAW and how I personally think it should work. By RAW it does work. I personally dislike the Orb spells for that reason.
TaiSharShaidar 07-11-07, 10:38 AM	The real problem I see with the orb spells is the simple question: What keeps them as orbs capable of being thrown? If the spell summoned an orb of acid and nothing constrained it wouldn’t it just splash all over the wizard that summoned it? Would not a orb of fire, cold, electric, force, or sound just dissipate if nothing held them together? Thus my ruling is that an orb spell comes apart at the edge of an AMF and only deals damage to creatures in the square just inside the AMF. So the orb spells can never effect the caster of an AMF.
Bukowski 07-11-07, 11:17 AM	So, I still thing that, like all force effect (except those with special rule), orb of force cannot work inside an AMF nor can be casted outside and thrown inside It's an house rule, but I think that the other ruling is totally absurd and it's only a bad writing of people that forgot the AMF interaction It all depends on how you perceive the force descriptor. If you look at force as a nonmagical substance that doesn't exist naturally in most planes, then using a conjuration spell to lob an orb of the stuff into an AMF would make sense. It would also explain why you could conjure force rather than only being able to evoke it. Don't get me wrong; I agree with you... just playing devil's advocate.
Leilond 07-11-07, 11:29 AM	It all depends on how you perceive the force descriptor. If you look at force as a nonmagical substance that doesn't exist naturally in most planes, then using a conjuration spell to lob an orb of the stuff into an AMF would make sense. It would also explain why you could conjure force rather than only being able to evoke it. Don't get me wrong; I agree with you... just playing devil's advocate. And it can work... What about FIRE? Fire alone, without magic, will vanish immediately. How can you lob "Fire" And cold? How can exists an "orb of cold"? And electricity? How can electricity be throwed? I think that "force" is strictly related to magic. There aren't things made of "force" in the reality, except those created with magic, but I can arrive to accept that in D&D there are things made of force in the nature, so that force is like stone, a material and an energy in the same time But no way an orb of electriticy can exist without any magic force that mantain it alive, and thus magic force cannot enter AMF, so when you trhow that orb to the caster it will vanish touching the AMF I like devil's advocates, they are the best way to see whan I'm saying stupid things ;)
Kursk 07-11-07, 11:58 AM	But Wall of Force is still *magic*. The Orb isn't. And how do you "throw" these "non-magical" balls of elemental stuff? Obviously a ball of "force" is magical. The designer who thought this up had less knowledge of the game that my 6 month old child.
Witch 07-11-07, 12:01 PM	Wall of force isn't an "istantaneous" effect so, BY THE RAW cannot be casted into an AMF This greate incongruence make clear that, when they created the orb, the totally forgot the AMF I can admit that a "orb of acid" isn't magical. But how can a orb of fire burn without any fuel and no magical support? How can you call "not magical" a "orb of force"? I think that the creators of the orb spells totally missed the point here So, by the RAW, orb pass AMF My ruling, all orb has a special rule that say "These spell do not benefit of the rule that let istantaneous conjuration spell work inside an AMF" Pheraps (and only pheraps) I can delete this rule from "orb of acid" but surely not from "force", "fire", "electrical", "cold", "positive", "negative" and other energies that cannot exist without a "fuel" or "magic" Nor I admit a "orb of force" to pass spell resistence Such a rule doesn't make sense. If you want to fix the issue, just have them be Evocation spells, and change Spell Resistance to say "Yes". Or if you don't want to go that far, give them a duration of "1 round", which is long enough to throw them, but they wink out inside the antimagic field. This is far more consistent than adding a rule ad hoc.
Pentar 07-11-07, 12:08 PM	And it can work... What about FIRE? Fire alone, without magic, will vanish immediately. How can you lob "Fire" And cold? How can exists an "orb of cold"? And electricity? How can electricity be throwed? I think that "force" is strictly related to magic. There aren't things made of "force" in the reality, except those created with magic, but I can arrive to accept that in D&D there are things made of force in the nature, so that force is like stone, a material and an energy in the same time But no way an orb of electriticy can exist without any magic force that mantain it alive, and thus magic force cannot enter AMF, so when you trhow that orb to the caster it will vanish touching the AMF I like devil's advocates, they are the best way to see whan I'm saying stupid things ;) While the text of the spell (I believe) does indicate that you "throw" the orbs, you could also imagine that as part of the spell, you "project" the orb upon completion of the spell. After all, you cannot "hold" the Orb to throw it in a later round. You have to attack with the orb in the same action that you cast it. Rather than looking at it that you're "throwing lightning", instead consider that as part of the conjuration, the spell is launching the orb at your opponent. It is raw elemental energy, but the projectile force initially used to launch it, is magical. However, once it's traveling through the air, all "magic" is gone from it - it is a pure blob of elemental energy that deals damage upon striking. Just a thought :)
Kursk 07-11-07, 12:11 PM	However, once it's traveling through the air, all "magic" is gone from it - it is a pure blob of elemental energy that deals damage upon striking. Just a thought :) So, an Orb of Force would disappear once launched. :)
Pentar 07-11-07, 12:14 PM	So, an Orb of Force would disappear once launched. :) Not really. Instantaneous conjuration of elemental "Force". HAHA - how the heck should I know? Technically a "ball of sound" should disperse and leave everyone's ears ringing, right? Yet no one seems to be having a hard time with Orb of Sound... The point is, we cannot apply physical laws to this game. Otherwise, we're going to get into a lot of trouble. The Orb spells are instantaneous conjurations, so they bypass AMF. I'm merely giving a suggestion as to why this may occur to help ease the transition of the suspension of disbelief. No one can argue how it operates by RAW. How people want to handle it in their own campaigns is, as always, up to them.
Kursk 07-11-07, 12:34 PM	Not really. Instantaneous conjuration of elemental "Force". HAHA - how the heck should I know? Technically a "ball of sound" should disperse and leave everyone's ears ringing, right? Yet no one seems to be having a hard time with Orb of Sound... I just rule that magic is magic. AMF's have effects on magic as per core rules. I just fix mistakes as they are published.
Radiun 07-11-07, 01:11 PM	Hmmm, how about this: The orbs deal 1 less die of damage for every 5 feet/1 round the are in an AMF they travel through. This is due that, though the magic is gone, the effects are still present, though they would be disappearing over time. Or you could just think of the "orb or force" as an orb only upon conjuration, when it is thrown, it just becomes a non-magical blast, kinda like a bomb's shock waves. Or does the spell say that they travel in orb form? I forget ^_^;
Kursk 07-11-07, 01:15 PM	Hmmm, how about this: The orbs deal 1 less die of damage for every 5 feet/1 round the are in an AMF they travel through. This is due that, though the magic is gone, the effects are still present, though they would be disappearing over time. Or you could just think of the "orb or force" as an orb only upon conjuration, when it is thrown, it just becomes a non-magical blast, kinda like a bomb's shock waves. Or does the spell say that they travel in orb form? I forget ^_^; Those "balls" of force would have to be kept in their "shape" by magic while in flight otherwise they would act like the material they are supposedly made of once conjured. Thus an AMF would cause them to "go off", dissipate, etc., when they hit the AMF. So, just mark the boundary of the AMF and have them act accordingly when they hit that.
Radiun 07-11-07, 01:49 PM	Those "balls" of force would have to be kept in their "shape" by magic while in flight otherwise they would act like the material they are supposedly made of once conjured. Thus an AMF would cause them to "go off", dissipate, etc., when they hit the AMF. is Force material? :S What makes you think that force with direction just dissipates instead of following it's course? Wouldn't the force continue of it's own volition until something stopped it? It's still there, it's still energy, it's just not magically held in orb form... Hm, what IS DnD Force? I know that it can be held magically, and I always just pictured it as being potential kinetic energy. A wall of Force would meet any attack with an equal and opposite reaction, therefore being virtually immune to all attacks. (I know Wall of force has weaknesses, but it's helped it make sense to me :P)
Pentar 07-11-07, 01:58 PM	I just rule that magic is magic. AMF's have effects on magic as per core rules. I just fix mistakes as they are published. Sure, fixed in your campaigns. The OP's question was how AMF interacted with Orb spells. By RAW, they do not interact at all. Orb spells go right through AMF. RAW does not have to make sense, RAW is just that... Now we are all free to houserule as it pleases us and the OP's original question is still answered. :) Personally, I think Antimagic field is a bit overpowered anyway, so having something that can bypass it isn't too bad. Nothing in D&D should be a catch-all vs. everything. Hell, there are Domain abilities that let you cast spells in magic dead zones for crying out loud... proof positive that Magic doesn't even obey the rules of magic.
Kursk 07-11-07, 02:08 PM	RAW does not have to make sense, RAW is just that... Now we are all free to houserule as it pleases us and the OP's original question is still answered. :) I just rule that Core supersedes non-core when dealing with fundamental issues.
Kursk 07-11-07, 02:11 PM	is Force material? :S What makes you think that force with direction just dissipates instead of following it's course? Wouldn't the force continue of it's own volition until something stopped it? It's still there, it's still energy, it's just not magically held in orb form... Hm, what IS DnD Force? I know that it can be held magically, and I always just pictured it as being potential kinetic energy. A wall of Force would meet any attack with an equal and opposite reaction, therefore being virtually immune to all attacks. (I know Wall of force has weaknesses, but it's helped it make sense to me :P) A "ball" sound "sonic" will hang together? Electricity? "Force" is a magical effect in D&D so that can't be argued anyway. Maybe I misunderstood you.
Radiun 07-11-07, 03:22 PM	I just reread the spell descriptions and it does seem that the spell intends for the orbs to stay spherical until impact, which is silly. And from the description of Orb of Force, it's an Energy Ball from DBZ Those aren't affected by magic, only Cheeze :P
Kursk 07-11-07, 03:29 PM	I just reread the spell descriptions and it does seem that the spell intends for the orbs to stay spherical until impact, which is silly. And from the description of Orb of Force, it's an Energy Ball from DBZ Those aren't affected by magic, only Cheeze :P Yeah, the rules for these spells are screwed up. It's magic but it isn't magic, but, but. Designers screwed the pooch on these.
redscizor 07-11-07, 03:45 PM	i am think in ki blast of phbII (alias kame hame ha) this work in AMF??
Kursk 07-11-07, 03:48 PM	i am think in ki blast of phbII (alias kame hame ha) this work in AMF?? If it is magic no, if not magic then yes. Stuff in splat books wasn't necessarily designed to comply with the Core rules though.
Jherid 07-11-07, 05:07 PM	i am think in ki blast of phbII (alias kame hame ha) this work in AMF?? It would work because, as it is a feat, it is an extraordinary ability. Hrm, also it's a force effect, so there's another bit of "nonmagical force" in D&D.
Witch 07-11-07, 05:17 PM	I just rule that Core supersedes non-core when dealing with fundamental issues. That's only when there's a contradiction. There isn't one here. There's just a lack of common sense. If it is magic no, if not magic then yes. Stuff in splat books wasn't necessarily designed to comply with the Core rules though. Actually, yes, it was.
Thiez 07-11-07, 05:18 PM	Actually, yes, it was. Especially the PHB2.
Kursk 07-11-07, 05:20 PM	Actually, yes, it was. What was?
Witch 07-11-07, 05:21 PM	What was? Stuff in splat books.
Kursk 07-11-07, 05:22 PM	Stuff in splat books. All stuff in splat books? :rofl:
Witch 07-11-07, 05:29 PM	All stuff in splat books? :rofl: Yes, all stuff in splat books. ":rofl:"
DM Denubis 07-11-07, 05:45 PM	All stuff in splat books? :rofl: That's the point of calling them supplements. I'll just also throw my hat in with the "Yes, it goes through AMF." crowd. I wish it didn't, but it does.
Kursk 07-11-07, 05:52 PM	That's the point of calling them supplements. Correct, they don't necessarily comply with core. That's why a spell of this type, from this splat book, ignores an AMF. I agree.
Witch 07-11-07, 05:54 PM	Correct, they don't necessarily comply with core. 1. Your statement was that they were not designed to comply with core. They are. That's exactly the point. Whether they fail or succeed is irrelevant to that point. 2. This spell ignores an AMF, and doesn't contradict core in doing so. In fact, the reasons why it can ignore an AMF is because of rules detailed in core books.
Kursk 07-11-07, 05:55 PM	2. This spell ignores an AMF, and doesn't contradict core in doing so. In fact, the reasons why it can ignore an AMF is because of rules detailed in core books. Really? I checked PHB & DMG and didn't find a/g about these orb spells. Do you remember the page #? Thanks!
locustechpriest 07-11-07, 05:56 PM	Simple solution. Let me define force for you in a way that works with precedent. A wall of force has a durration and is still unaffected by dispel magics. This leads me to believe that it is actual, physical, and non-magical stuff, constructed by magic, but inherently unstable. It falls apart eventually. Magic missile and mage armor are different. They require continuous magic to coordinate them. The missiles need to be guided to their target, and the armor needs to shape around the caster continuously as (s)he moves. A possibility for flavor purposes, I suppose. Kursk, try not to be a troll. I think his meaning was very clear.
Kursk 07-11-07, 06:02 PM	A wall of force has a durration and is still unaffected by dispel magics. This leads me to believe that it is actual, physical, and non-magical stuff, constructed by magic, but inherently unstable. It falls apart eventually. Except there isn't anything to say that a Wall of Force can exist in an AMF...
DM Denubis 07-11-07, 06:04 PM	Correct, they don't necessarily comply with core. That's why a spell of this type, from this splat book, ignores an AMF. I agree. I'll thank you not to deliberately misinterpret what I say. If I release software that does something for people, and then later on I say that I'm going to release an expansion for it, you're saying that you would not automatically expect these two things to work together? Except there isn't anything to say that a Wall of Force can exist in an AMF... Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions) Wrong. Please try again.
Witch 07-11-07, 06:05 PM	Really? I checked PHB & DMG and didn't find a/g about these orb spells. Do you remember the page #? Thanks! Because you insist on being a wiseguy: p173 of the Player's Handbook clarifies: [Conjuration:] Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence. p200 of the Player's Handbook, on the description of antimagic field: The effect of instantaneous conjurations, such as create water, are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result. Now, if you're going to say that making a spell of the Conjuration (Creation) school/subschool with a duration of Instantaneous makes it incompatible with the core rules, then yes, the orbs are incompatible with the core rules. Ofcourse, you can't reasonably defend that statement.
Witch 07-11-07, 06:08 PM	Except there isn't anything to say that a Wall of Force can exist in an AMF... Open your eyes. Learn to look better. p.200, antimagic field: "Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field."
Kursk 07-11-07, 06:11 PM	Because you insist on being a wiseguy: p173 of the Player's Handbook clarifies: p200 of the Player's Handbook, on the description of antimagic field: Now, if you're going to say that making a spell of the Conjuration (Creation) school/subschool with a duration of Instantaneous makes it incompatible with the core rules, then yes, the orbs are incompatible with the core rules. Ofcourse, you can't reasonably defend that statement. Thanks. My only contention is that in order to function as described there would have to be magic involved until impact. Other than that I don't have a problem. In my earlier post I described what would actually happen to an Orb that hit an AMF based on Core mechanics.
Witch 07-11-07, 06:14 PM	Thanks. My only contention is that in order to function as described there would have to be magic involved until impact. That's difficult to determine, though - just like swinging a filled bucket around doesn't cause the water to drop out of it, but keeps it in the container, the speed the spell gives the orb might be sufficient to keep it together. The spell doesn't clarify where the magic stops and where it begins - it comes down to personal interpretation. This is why I find the orb spells (aside from being boring) badly designed. I recommend houseruling according to my earlier suggestions.
Kursk 07-11-07, 06:18 PM	I know. I'm thinking about the Sonic one as an example. Imagine conjuring a tightly coiled spring. Something has to contain it until it releases. In the case of the Sonic one I can only come up with a magical effect that keeps it from prematurely dissipating before contact. [edit] I think I'll just rule it detonates when contacting an AMF
Dog_As_A_Devil_Deified 07-11-07, 06:34 PM	But how can a orb of fire burn without any fuel and no magical support? Because "fire" in an element in D&D (along with earth, air, and water), not the luminous emissions accompanying a chemical reaction. There is a whole Plane of Fire, not just a Plane on Fire. How can you call "not magical" a "orb of force"? This is trickier because force is not an element itself in D&D. Still one can imagine non-magical forces (think gravity or electromagnetism) even in the D&D world and one could probably stretch to imagine a coherent ball of electromagnetic energy akin to the Star Trek-style force field. What I've never understood is why being hit with such a raw force does "force damage" and not "bludgeoning damage"
Visigo7h 07-11-07, 07:32 PM	Everyone on here is under the assumption that these spells were written without looking at AMF... Is it not also possible, if not probable that they were written as such to get around AMF. Just a thought there. And as for how they stay together, well it could be in a skin like a water balloon that burst on impact, or how about a thin glasslike substance that breaks upon hitting but can contain non-magically pure energy? The way I view Orb of Force is like (I am ashamed to say it) as the technique Narito learns that twists energy and when it hits causes there body to twist and contort. The energy is twisting and spinning already and has the curve as its set path so that until another object of equal or greater energy and mass hits it, it still spins in the same spherical pattern. Same thing as with sphere of Sound or Electricity. And Sphere of Fire would either be superheated air spinning like that (which cause fire damage) Or maybe like alchemist fire. Same thing with Cold but only for Cold damage. And as to what is force... well I would think of it in game terms as just energy hitting you like the resulting kinetic energy flow of a punch. Because the energy is being exerted onto the body in its purest form, and because it is not being lost to outside forces and even sinks through the toughest of skin, it passes through DR which bludgeoning and other non-energy based damage types can’t (as demonstrated by the force magical property for weapons). I do tend to think scientifically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force) about it though.
dragynson1 07-11-07, 07:59 PM	Ruling this way also significantly reduces the amount of cheesiness you can do with an AMF (shaping an AMF to exclude you and then casting orbs through). I think it fits the flavor of the orb spells much better too. i.e. Even though you have a non-magical ball of fire or force (!?), magic is still needed for that ball to remain coherent, and if it enters into an AMF, the orb kind of splatters in all directions, harming no one. thats the way i would veiw it , if the magic goes away wth is holding the force or acid or fire in shape and propelling it? your obviously not throwing it. you point it goes. i dont give a crap who you are you cant throw water cupped in your palm 25 ft +5 feet per two levels much less keep it in a nice ball shape. magic is still involved. it hits the amf the magic propelling it goes away. the magic keeping it in the ball shape goes away.
Leilond 07-12-07, 06:02 AM	There are no doubts that strictly by the RAW you can fire an "orb of whatever you want" into an AMF I simply laught and do not admit it.
Kursk 07-12-07, 01:03 PM	There are no doubts that strictly by the RAW you can fire an "orb of whatever you want" into an AMF I simply laught and do not admit it. Of course you can. What happens when it hits is what we were discussing.
yrogerg 07-12-07, 08:13 PM	There are no doubts that strictly by the RAW you can fire an "orb of whatever you want" into an AMF I simply laught and do not admit it. Well, no. There's actually a subtle contradiction in the RAW here. The RAW state explicitly what a Conjuration with duration: Instantaneous is, and what the effect is: it creates something that, while persisting, is completely nonmagical in nature. The AMF-Instantaneous Conjuration interaction derives from this definition of the Effects of Instantaneous Conjurations: even though a spell created them, the Effect is nonmagical, and not nullified by AMF. This makes sense for spells like Create Water, Wall of Iron, and Wall of Stone. It even makes sense for Acid Splash. The Orb spells violate the initial definition, creating effects that cannot conceivably be holding their form without magic (Sound...?). Thus, by the definition set out for Instantaneous Conjuration spells, Orb spells should not be, and are either mislabeled Evocation spells, or already an exception to the rules for Instantaneous Conjurations. In the latter case, there's no reason not to expand that "exception" to spell interactions, and allow AMF to block them.
redraven 07-13-07, 12:57 AM	There are two contradictory rules issues at stake: 1. AMF says it has no effect on Instantaneous Conjurations. 2. AMF blocks Line of Effect (per multiple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a) RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a) articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a)). I keep wishing every day that the Ask Wizards article will settle this debate, as it has become almost as defining a question as anything else on these boards. Bottom line is that the rules are absolutely no help in coming up with authoritative answer - Rules As Intended are the only way to go. Personally, I think the designers wanted a direct damage spell that did not have to check for SR (so blaster mages weren't useless against golems and high-SR monsters), and the Conjuration school is pretty much the only place you can go for such things. I do not think the designers intended for the Orbs to be tech versus AMF. In any event, the Orb spells have created a huge mess of the rules. If you let Orbs defeat an AMF but get stopped by a Globe of Invulnerability, you are conceding to a world of madness with nonmagical orbs of [Force] that still somehow count as a magical effects.
yrogerg 07-13-07, 01:11 AM	2. AMF blocks Line of Effect (per multiple (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a) RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a) articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a)). I keep wishing every day that the Ask Wizards article will settle this debate, as it has become almost as defining a question as anything else on these boards. The big problem is that neither Rules of the Game nor The Sage have a strong history of being either self-consistent, or consistent with known rules published elsewhere. Few people consider either to be adequate as the final word on rules disputes. Bottom line is that the rules are absolutely no help in coming up with authoritative answer - Rules As Intended are the only way to go. Personally, I think the designers wanted a direct damage spell that did not have to check for SR (so blaster mages weren't useless against golems and high-SR monsters), and the Conjuration school is pretty much the only place you can go for such things. I do not think the designers intended for the Orbs to be tech versus AMF. In any event, the Orb spells have created a huge mess of the rules. If you let Orbs defeat an AMF but get stopped by a Globe of Invulnerability, you are conceding to a world of madness with nonmagical orbs of [Force] that still somehow count as a magical effects. Again, the easy solution is to just say that they're really Evocation spells. You can even keep the bit about ignoring SR if you're keen on it. Honestly, giving the high-level DD spells to Conjuration manages to make Evocation even more obsolete a school than it would be otherwise, anyway. After all, Conjurers hardly have a problem with SR creatures, since all of their other combat spells ignore SR. Evokers, on the other hand, are right hosed by SR.
Leilond 07-13-07, 04:00 AM	The big problem is that neither Rules of the Game nor The Sage have a strong history of being either self-consistent, or consistent with known rules published elsewhere. Few people consider either to be adequate as the final word on rules disputes. This answer make always me laught a lot. They make 2 rules of the game articles each week, it is normal that every now and then they commit a mistake, but: They're the game designer. They're the designers, and their opinion is more offical than ours. Their opinions are the way they intend the rule should work They can make mistake, like everyone, but theire opinion is the most official opinion out there, and simply ignoring because "I'm better than them" make me laught The "rotg are always wrong" way of reasoning was born from those that cannot accept they're wrong (I'm not talking about you now=)
Kursk 07-13-07, 10:42 AM	In any event, the Orb spells have created a huge mess of the rules. Not really. Anything from a splat book that screws with core concepts is automatically wrong unless you want it in as a house rule anyway.
Witch 07-13-07, 12:39 PM	Not really. Anything from a splat book that screws with core concepts is automatically wrong unless you want it in as a house rule anyway. The orb spells do not screw with core concepts. At all. Try and get that inside your brain, now. Once you point out a core rule which they contradict, I'll give you a acookie. Until then, noone's going to take you seriously, because you simply don't provide any facts.
Kursk 07-13-07, 12:44 PM	The orb spells do not screw with core concepts. At all. Try and get that inside your brain, now. Once you point out a core rule which they contradict, I'll give you a acookie. Until then, noone's going to take you seriously, because you simply don't provide any facts. How about MAGIC DOESN'T FUNCTION INSIDE AN AMF?
Witch 07-13-07, 12:48 PM	How about MAGIC DOESN'T FUNCTION INSIDE AN AMF? And the orbs that are thrown towards the target aren't magical, because they're Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic, which is explicitly defined within the core rules as not requiring magic to be sustained, and can hence function perfectly in an antimagic field, which is also explicitly defined within the core rules.
Kursk 07-13-07, 12:54 PM	because they're Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic, No, they are called Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic but clearly aren't. If they were they'd go off as soon as they were conjured. Mis-labeling s/g doesn't change what it is.
Witch 07-13-07, 12:56 PM	No, they are called Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic but clearly aren't. Prove it. In any case, I agree with you on the fact that they belong in another school and don't make sense. I don't agree that they contradict the core rules. If you want to make an argument about them, state facts or admit that you're showing personal bias. There is no flat-out contradiction with the core rules, there is simply something that doesn't go well with our own common sense.
Kursk 07-13-07, 01:00 PM	Prove it. In any case, I agree with you on the fact that they belong in another school and don't make sense. I don't agree that they contradict the core rules. Your statement just proved it. :)
primemover003 07-13-07, 01:02 PM	While problematic the Orb spells don't break the rules (they break traditions, but not rules). The orbs are actual objects conjured by magic and fired by magic but that's where the magic stops. Once you hurl the orb it's a physical object that can pass through the AMF... Not working in the Globe's of Invulnerablitiy is whole nother monster. Personally, I think the designers wanted a direct damage spell that did not have to check for SR (so blaster mages weren't useless against golems and high-SR monsters), and the Conjuration school is pretty much the only place you can go for such things. I do not think the designers intended for the Orbs to be tech versus AMF. This is where the designers broke tradition... Blaster mages (and all spellcasters really) should be less than useful against Golems and High SR creatures. These encounters are where Warrior types are meant to shine. It's a chance for the less powerful Fighter to earn his pay at higher levels and it's a shame the designers took that away from him by adding in the Orb line of spells.
Kursk 07-13-07, 01:19 PM	While problematic the Orb spells don't break the rules (they break traditions, but not rules). The orbs are actual objects conjured by magic and fired by magic but that's where the magic stops. Not really. To hold a ball of "sonic" together so it doesn't instantly dissipate would require magic...
Pentar 07-13-07, 02:16 PM	No, they are called Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic but clearly aren't. If they were they'd go off as soon as they were conjured. Mis-labeling s/g doesn't change what it is. So the entire basis of your argument is that WoTC mislabeled the spells and therefore you are right. Except that... WoTC has not indicated this in any errata or FAQ. They have not said, "Oops, we will be fixing that soon". In fact, they re-printed the god forsaken spells in Spell Compendium exactly as they first appeared in Complete Arcane... and yet you still say it's "mis-labeled". You must be privy to some divination or inside scoop at WoTC that the rest of us aren't... because you're able to read into intentions and "What Should Have Been", despite the physical evidence of "What It Actually Is".
yrogerg 07-13-07, 07:09 PM	You must be privy to some divination or inside scoop at WoTC that the rest of us aren't... because you're able to read into intentions and "What Should Have Been", despite the physical evidence of "What It Actually Is". Well, no. He's just privy to the part of the Instantaneous Conjuration description that says that the effect is nonmagical, even though it's created by magic. The PHB *says* what the effects of Instantaneous Conjurations are. Somehow, creating a coherent orb of *Sound* that travels in a straight line in a single direction and is able to damage its target is completely nonmagical. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how that approaches moderately plausible without the continual application of magic.
redraven 07-13-07, 07:10 PM	And the orbs that are thrown towards the target aren't magical, because they're Instantaneous Conjuration Creation Magic, which is explicitly defined within the core rules as not requiring magic to be sustained, and can hence function perfectly in an antimagic field, which is also explicitly defined within the core rules. And yet they still count as spell effects, do they not? Or would you agree that Orbs bypass Globes of Invulnerability? So, again, we have nonmagical [Force] Orb spell effects. If GoI treats Orbs as spell effects, I have no idea why AMF would not likewise treat the Orbs as spell effects that need Line of Effect to get to where they are going.
yrogerg 07-13-07, 07:15 PM	This is where the designers broke tradition... Blaster mages (and all spellcasters really) should be less than useful against Golems and High SR creatures. These encounters are where Warrior types are meant to shine. It's a chance for the less powerful Fighter to earn his pay at higher levels and it's a shame the designers took that away from him by adding in the Orb line of spells. It also gives the best Direct Damage spells to the Conjuration School, in addition to the Best field control spells they already had, and the summons and indirect damage spells they already had. This screws pretty heavily with balance between schools, as Conjuration outlcasses Evocation at its own schtick.
Kursk 07-13-07, 07:18 PM	Well, no. He's just privy to the part of the Instantaneous Conjuration description that says that the effect is nonmagical, even though it's created by magic. The PHB *says* what the effects of Instantaneous Conjurations are. Somehow, creating a coherent orb of *Sound* that travels in a straight line in a single direction and is able to damage its target is completely nonmagical. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how that approaches moderately plausible without the continual application of magic. Seems a lot of people here aren't familiar with this little part of the magic system which CORE... :lightbulb BTW - no one can explain how it is not CONTINUALLY a magical effect, because it clearly is.
primemover003 07-13-07, 07:26 PM	Anyone ever query the designers about this question??? It'd be nice to just ask whomever worked on CA and SpC and get an answer. Somebody should try at Gencon.
Kursk 07-13-07, 07:30 PM	Anyone ever query the designers about this question??? It'd be nice to just ask whomever worked on CA and SpC and get an answer. Somebody should try at Gencon. The answer would probably be s/g like, "It can work that way because it's magic." Now, wouldn't that be ironic! :rofl:
nepence 07-13-07, 08:03 PM	Well, the one problem that I see in this debate is a very simple one: Why are people trying to explain how magic works? Anyone care to explain how gravity works? How about electromagnetism? If someone came up with a field in which one worked, but not the other, are you in a position to discuss how such a field worked?
Kursk 07-13-07, 08:06 PM	Well, the one problem that I see in this debate is a very simple one: Why are people trying to explain how magic works? Anyone care to explain how gravity works? How about electromagnetism? If someone came up with a field in which one worked, but not the other, are you in a position to discuss how such a field worked? Exactly. If it is MAGIC it can't operate inside an AMF. You do realize the core argument/problem being discussed here, right?
ravenshrike 07-13-07, 08:45 PM	You could, but would be embarrassed when such powerful acids ate through your glass bottle and left a "mess" on the front of your trousers... There are very, very few acids that will eat through glass given the nature of glass itself. And if it's powerful enough to eat through glass, it probably does the same amount of damage as a pool of lava.
dirkformica 07-13-07, 10:07 PM	I don't really see why anyone needs to explain how the Orbs work. At a strictly RAW level, the game is purely mechanical. The mechanics of the Orb spells state they are Instantaneous Conjurations. These kinds of spells can pierce an AMF. It doesn't matter if it makes sense (again, strictly from a mechanical POV,) they just work. House Rules, Rule zero, etc. are all fine, but from the strictly mechanical RAW, the spells just work.
Radiun 07-14-07, 12:58 AM	There are very, very few acids that will eat through glass given the nature of glass itself. And if it's powerful enough to eat through glass, it probably does the same amount of damage as a pool of lava. It's a Magical Sphere of Acid, about 2 inches wide, strong enough to deal 5-40 points of damage in one round... Lava raining down directly on a party from Transmute Rock to Lava deals 2-12 damage... It's pretty powerful acid ;)
The Crimson Dawn 07-14-07, 01:04 AM	It appears that some people are talking about how the orbs are not core but have this issue with the AMF. Core has a spell like the orbs if I recall correctly which is melf acid arrow. Conjouration effect that has to hold its form and is not effected by an AMF so there is no reason to bring up core vs non core because a spell like the orbs existed they were just rarer. Even more fun in core it even says that is magical in the description yet is still not affected by the AMF!
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:20 AM	It appears that some people are talking about how the orbs are not core but have this issue with the AMF. Core has a spell like the orbs if I recall correctly which is melf acid arrow. Conjouration effect that has to hold its form and is not effected by an AMF so there is no reason to bring up core vs non core because a spell like the orbs existed they were just rarer. Even more fun in core it even says that is magical in the description yet is still not affected by the AMF! Melf's acid arrow *is* affected by AMF. The acid arrow has a duration (it isn't Instantaneous) so it vanishes if an AMF touches it. And no, Melf's acid arrow says NOTHING about being unaffected by AMFs. Normally I'd stop by just saying that, but your tone is really irritating, so -- do some damn research next time before you start making fun of other people.
yrogerg 07-14-07, 02:13 AM	NM
GAMBLE_d13 07-14-07, 04:05 AM	*scratches head* I do not get why people are having such a hard time with this? The Orb Spells conjure raw elements in a way that allows to exist indefinantly in a sphereical shape without the aid of Magic. It's what they do! Its why they are in the book! If it helps, try and find similar phenomenon in real life and apply it to the game, then swallow your pride and admit you don't know everything about the D&D universe. For instance: Orb of Electricity = Ball Lightning. Orb of Fire = The Sun. Orb of Acid = A hunk of acid with a high melting point (perhaps 37degrees celsius) thus it would be shards of solid acid eating through the target, and melting oncontact with the targets blood. Apply similar explanations and remmeber it is a Fantasy Multiverse with limitless possiblities and one can begin to see how it is "possible" to conjure and element or energy in a form that it can be physcially, non-magically manipulated. Hope this helps.. PS: as a side note, I rarely have my books with me when I post (my home doesn't have internent access), so I was just wondering, does the Orb Spells state that the energy breaks up once it hits its target, or are there countless orbs of force just lying arround the D&D Multiverse?
yrogerg 07-14-07, 10:37 AM	*scratches head* I do not get why people are having such a hard time with this? The Orb Spells conjure raw elements in a way that allows to exist indefinantly in a sphereical shape without the aid of Magic. It's what they do! Its why they are in the book! If it helps, try and find similar phenomenon in real life and apply it to the game, then swallow your pride and admit you don't know everything about the D&D universe. For instance: Orb of Electricity = Ball Lightning. Orb of Fire = The Sun. Orb of Acid = A hunk of acid with a high melting point (perhaps 37degrees celsius) thus it would be shards of solid acid eating through the target, and melting oncontact with the targets blood. Apply similar explanations and remmeber it is a Fantasy Multiverse with limitless possiblities and one can begin to see how it is "possible" to conjure and element or energy in a form that it can be physcially, non-magically manipulated. Sound? Force? Sound, in particular, is pretty much marked by its inability to do things like travel in a straight line in only one direction as a coherent ball of stuff. Meanwhile, every core [Force] spell (Magic Missle, Wall of Force, Forcecage, Mordenkainen's Sword...) I can think of makes it clear that it works by magic. If Orb of Force does, somehow, create a nonmagical ball of Force damage, I think the designers ought to bother explaining how it's possible, as it runs counter to the trends of every other [Force] spell in D&D. PS: as a side note, I rarely have my books with me when I post (my home doesn't have internent access), so I was just wondering, does the Orb Spells state that the energy breaks up once it hits its target, or are there countless orbs of force just lying arround the D&D Multiverse? It doesn't say anything, and because it doesn't have a duration, the orbs don't vanish after the casting. Moreover, even if it does break up on contact, this still means that misses lead to random Orbs sitting around. If I miss with an Orb of Sound, can I walk over after combat and pick it up? If I trip over it, does it do Sonic damage?
Pentar 07-14-07, 01:34 PM	Well, no. He's just privy to the part of the Instantaneous Conjuration description that says that the effect is nonmagical, even though it's created by magic. The PHB *says* what the effects of Instantaneous Conjurations are. Somehow, creating a coherent orb of *Sound* that travels in a straight line in a single direction and is able to damage its target is completely nonmagical. I'm still waiting for somebody to explain how that approaches moderately plausible without the continual application of magic. Had you read my previous posts, you will see that I agree that it is silly an Orb of Sound can hold together after it has been conjured. In reality, following the physical laws of the universe, the Orb of Sound should fly apart and give everyone a mild headache because of the noise. However; BY RAW, which is what Kursk is saying, the Orb of <whatever> would not penetrate an AMF. In this, he is wrong. In this, if he were to say (and not unreasonably) that AMF stops Orbs from entering, he would be house ruling it. Again, it is not an unreasonable house rule. But it is, technically, a house rule.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:51 PM	*scratches head* I do not get why people are having such a hard time with this? The Orb Spells conjure raw elements in a way that allows to exist indefinantly in a sphereical shape without the aid of Magic. It's what they do! Its why they are in the book! If it helps, try and find similar phenomenon in real life and apply it to the game, then swallow your pride and admit you don't know everything about the D&D universe. For instance: Orb of Electricity = Ball Lightning. Orb of Fire = The Sun. Part of the point of how the Sun works (i.e. how nuclear fusion works) is that you can't make one small enough to hold in your hand and fling at things. Orb of Acid = A hunk of acid with a high melting point (perhaps 37degrees celsius) thus it would be shards of solid acid eating through the target, and melting oncontact with the targets blood. You know that acid has to be dissolved in water to work, right? At least by the definition of "acid" most widely used by chemists, an acid *works* by increasing the concentration of hydronium ions in water (by donating a hydrogen ion in solution). You can't *have* "solid" acids -- crystallized H2SO4 is not "sulfuric acid" but merely "hydrogen sulfate", and is not dangerous until it comes in contact with water. Of course, D&D's use of the term "acid" is very loose and might encompass any corrosive chemical substance at all. But still. It's this kind of thing that makes me shake my head and sigh when D&D geeks try to argue science. Apply similar explanations and remmeber it is a Fantasy Multiverse with limitless possiblities and one can begin to see how it is "possible" to conjure and element or energy in a form that it can be physcially, non-magically manipulated. Of course it's possible. Anything is possible. The question is whether some new fantasy element, which we all agree is *possible*, 1) is helpful for game balance 2) feels stupid The Orb spells are openly bad for game balance, and feel stupid. That's why I don't like them. PS: as a side note, I rarely have my books with me when I post (my home doesn't have internent access), so I was just wondering, does the Orb Spells state that the energy breaks up once it hits its target, or are there countless orbs of force just lying arround the D&D Multiverse? It doesn't say either way. It appears to imply that the Orbs break or explode in order to deal damage when they hit something, but this of course carefully avoids the "What if I carefully miss and fire my Orb of Force into a big soft pillow?" question.
The Crimson Dawn 07-14-07, 04:36 PM	:( Well ArcTan after rereading the book a little more I will agree with you. I just looked at spell resistance and decided that meant it would work but I was wrong. That shows why I should not post late at night;) . But hey this will not be the first or last time I have been or will be wrong I admit. I also apologize for apparently having an attitude that made some people mad. I swear that was not my intention. The attitude was probably my dislike of people talking about how non-core stuff is balanced but core stuff is balanced and I do not agree to that. Unfortunately when I tried to find an example of core having the same problem I failed. Oh well better luck next time for me. Unfortunately even though I agree that these orbs would have to be magical to actually work they still go through an anti-magic field. Funny normally I chalk this stuff up to magic but I cant because after the orb is formed there is no more magic (or else it would be affected by the AMF) so yea I guess I will have to live with my mind just not understanding.
redraven 07-14-07, 04:37 PM	Globe of Invulnerability Abjuration Level: Sor/Wiz 6 This spell functions like lesser globe of invulnerability, except that it also excludes 4th-level spells and spell-like effects. [...] The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty. Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled. If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it. For every single person who says Orbs can damage people within an AMF, I ask this question again: can a standard Orb damage someone inside a Globe of Invulnerability? Yes or no?
bigbythewise 07-14-07, 04:43 PM	If the effect of the spell is already *gone* then yes, it can.
The Crimson Dawn 07-14-07, 04:47 PM	Well there are a very few number of spells that create instant conjurations that are permanent 4th level and lower that is probably why there are so few responses to your question of globe of invulnerability though I can not say for sure. Personally I would say that they would go through as the orb is no longer a spell after it is cast. It is an orb of some energy and so the globe could not affect it. Do I like that not so much but I think that is how the rules work. On another point could somebody tell me that this is true or not...Acid splash the 0th level spell I think that is works like the orb spells and is core thus (if I am correct) showing a preexisting core use of the orbs ability. Of course acid splash sucks but thats because it is 0th level rather than 4th. If I am wrong please let me know though nicely this time if possible as I do bruise easily.
bigbythewise 07-14-07, 05:01 PM	Another question. Is it possible for an arrow or bolt transmuted by Flame Arrow spell to go trough AMF or GoI, dealing fire damage normally?
yrogerg 07-14-07, 10:25 PM	Had you read my previous posts, you will see that I agree that it is silly an Orb of Sound can hold together after it has been conjured. In reality, following the physical laws of the universe, the Orb of Sound should fly apart and give everyone a mild headache because of the noise. However; BY RAW, which is what Kursk is saying, the Orb of <whatever> would not penetrate an AMF. In this, he is wrong. In this, if he were to say (and not unreasonably) that AMF stops Orbs from entering, he would be house ruling it. Again, it is not an unreasonable house rule. But it is, technically, a house rule. Had you read my previous posts, you would be aware that conflict exists between how Orbs are supposed to work and the PHB description of Instantaneous Conjurations and why AMF does not affect them. This information is still a part of RAW. AFAICT, *this* is the RAW that Kursk is pointing to. And he's right: The PHB states in no uncertain terms that the reason Instantaneous Conjurations are not affected by AMF is because they are not magical effects, even though they were created by magic. So, a Fabricated sword doesn't wink out of existence, nor does Created Water. However, if, by some stretch of the imagination, there existed an Instantaneous Conjuration that somehow created an effect that was obviously and self-evidently magical in nature, then it stands to reason that the rationale given would not apply and thus, such an Instantaneous Conjuration would still be subject to AMF.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 10:37 PM	Well, the one problem that I see in this debate is a very simple one: Why are people trying to explain how magic works? Anyone care to explain how gravity works? How about electromagnetism? If someone came up with a field in which one worked, but not the other, are you in a position to discuss how such a field worked? You misunderstand. I'm not at heart claiming that it's a logical impossibility that Orb of Sound can exist inside an AMF or that that can't be the way D&D works. I'm willing to accept that, just like I accept that Golems aren't magical, and work in an AMF. I just think it's *stupid*. It's bad for game balance, and it makes the magical world I picture in my head look that much more like an unimaginative roguelike or MMORPG.
yrogerg 07-14-07, 10:37 PM	On another point could somebody tell me that this is true or not...Acid splash the 0th level spell I think that is works like the orb spells and is core thus (if I am correct) showing a preexisting core use of the orbs ability. Of course acid splash sucks but thats because it is 0th level rather than 4th. If I am wrong please let me know though nicely this time if possible as I do bruise easily. Since it a) does as much damage as nonmagical acid, b) is fired from close range, c) doesn't scale damage based on caster level, and d) is called Acid Splash, it's a lot easier to believe that it's a spell that creates a small bit of non-magical acid that splashes the target, rather than that Orb of Acid creating a coherent orb of more-damaging-than-magma acid that gets stronger when cast by more powerful spellcasters that is still soemhow non-magical.
yrogerg 07-14-07, 10:52 PM	Hey, I just realized something: If Orb of Fire has a nonmagical effect, that means it creates non-magical Fire, right? That means it can't be cast underwater (no spellcraft checks allowed), A Frost Brand automatically counters it (extingquises all nonmagical fires in the area), and a readied manifesting of Control Flames can turn it back on its caster. Among other things.
Nephlite 07-14-07, 11:50 PM	Hey, I just realized something: If Orb of Fire has a nonmagical effect, that means it creates non-magical Fire, right? That means it can't be cast underwater (no spellcraft checks allowed), A Frost Brand automatically counters it (extingquises all nonmagical fires in the area), and a readied manifesting of Control Flames can turn it back on its caster. Technically, yeah, that makes sense. Granted, the caster would/should be able to know these limitations.
yrogerg 07-15-07, 04:54 AM	Technically, yeah, that makes sense. Granted, the caster would/should be able to know these limitations. Part of my point is that I suspect that very few DMs play by these rules, relative to the AMF issue, even though if one applies, the other definitely does.
nepence 07-15-07, 07:04 AM	I don't really see why anyone needs to explain how the Orbs work. At a strictly RAW level, the game is purely mechanical. The mechanics of the Orb spells state they are Instantaneous Conjurations. These kinds of spells can pierce an AMF. It doesn't matter if it makes sense (again, strictly from a mechanical POV,) they just work. House Rules, Rule zero, etc. are all fine, but from the strictly mechanical RAW, the spells just work. You see, it's rather simple. There are a bunch of people who believe they have an understanding into the full workings of magic, and therefore are able to say what should and shouldn't work. The rules are only a guideline to these people, since they have IQs of 160, at least. (This is the IQ required to cast a 6th level spell, such as antimagic field.) These people, therefore, are perfectly qualified to describe under what circumstances an Anti-magic Field works. Anyone else fails to understand the full powers of such a spell. Or, they could just be idiots who can't accept that WotC created a set of spells that (a) affects creatures with high SR, and (b) affects creatures inside an Antimagic Field. Whichever works.
Kursk 07-15-07, 09:43 AM	Or, they could just be idiots who can't accept that WotC I don't know how long you've been around these boards but, you should read the Code of Conduct... No one on either side of this issue is an idiot.
Kursk 07-15-07, 09:54 AM	So, it comes down to two viewpoints: Those who think it is fine as WoTC printed it in a splat book and it doesn't need to follow the previous RAW on Instantaneous Conjuration, and those who find it, as written, to violate RAW on the same above point. There are of course other viewpoints that don't draw such stark lines. Well, fortunately, it's a from a splat book and not core, and either way a DM has to decide whether or not a player can use it. I do hope that in the future, the staff who do this type of work learn the core game system so that we the customer aren't left to figure out the mess.
yrogerg 07-15-07, 09:55 AM	You see, it's rather simple. There are a bunch of people who believe they have an understanding into the full workings of magic, and therefore are able to say what should and shouldn't work. The rules are only a guideline to these people, since they have IQs of 160, at least. (This is the IQ required to cast a 6th level spell, such as antimagic field.) These people, therefore, are perfectly qualified to describe under what circumstances an Anti-magic Field works. Anyone else fails to understand the full powers of such a spell. Or, they could just be idiots who can't accept that WotC created a set of spells that (a) affects creatures with high SR, and (b) affects creatures inside an Antimagic Field. Whichever works. 1) Calling people idiots is a great way to get the thread locked. If that's your goal, great. Otherwise, try to stay away from the personal attacks, mm'kay? 2) Nobody here's arguing over what the "workings of magic" are. At most, people are insisting that non-magical stuff should act like non-magical stuff -that is to say, act somewhat as one would expect normal stuff to act in the real world, albeit abstracted, rather than like something that really is magic but it isn't. 3) The reason that it's not a simple matter of "it's an Instantaneous Conjuration, so here's how it works" is because, WotC conveniently explained to us the reason why most Instantaneous Conjurations work that way, and that reason fails to apply in the case of Orb spells, in a big obvious way. The problem arises because the reason why Instantaneous Conjurations work that way is just as much a part of RAW as the Orb spells being part of the school. 4) I noticed you forgot to mention that some people have a problem with them being of the Conjuration school, as it screws up the balance between schools even more than it already is.
Radiun 07-15-07, 12:21 PM	2 things: 1: When I said the orbs are 2 inches wide, that's wrong. They're three inches wide, lesser orbs are 2 inches and deal the damage I said. The "normal" orb can deal from 15-90 damage (high level caster) Still more than acid ;) 2: If I remember right (just woke up), someone mentioned that the range was unrealistic... I agree, throwing something that small should have much larger range, especially if it's given a magical boost when you first let it loose ;)
ArcTan 07-15-07, 12:44 PM	Or, they could just be idiots who can't accept that WotC created a set of spells that (a) affects creatures with high SR, and (b) affects creatures inside an Antimagic Field. Whichever works. The latter, although instead of "idiots who can't accept" it, it's "people who find it broken and stupid".
ArcTan 07-15-07, 12:45 PM	So, it comes down to two viewpoints: Those who think it is fine as WoTC printed it in a splat book and it doesn't need to follow the previous RAW on Instantaneous Conjuration, and those who find it, as written, to violate RAW on the same above point. There are of course other viewpoints that don't draw such stark lines. It's not about the "violation of RAW" per se, it's about breaking the flavor of the schools of magic and making spells that are too good for what they do (while, at the same time, being totally uninteresting on their own merits).
Kursk 07-15-07, 01:25 PM	It's not about the "violation of RAW" per se, it's about breaking the flavor of the schools of magic and making spells that are too good for what they do (while, at the same time, being totally uninteresting on their own merits). I'll agree with that
Bozeroth 07-15-07, 01:49 PM	I only read the first two pages, but I wanted to throw out a point that may not have been mentioned. A LOT of problems with MANY rules simply go away if you eliminate Anti-Magic field. That's removing one spell to solve MANY problems. It's worth considering.
Nezkrul 07-15-07, 03:08 PM	1. Nothing in any printed book states that the orbs are non-magical, only the ill-informed players have been stating that. If it wasn't magical, Globe of Invulnerability wouldn't stop it - but it does. Deal with it. 2. Orbs go through antimagic fields, deal with it. Antimagic fields are only a 10' radius emanation anyways 3. Orbs aren't broken, deal with it. Only someone's narrow view of the very broad range of printed spells prevents them from realizing this. That, and they seem to ignore fighters. 4. Overthinking, and nitpicking the rules creates long drawn out wastes of time, like say... this thread. If you don't want to play DnD, you don't have to.
yrogerg 07-15-07, 11:47 PM	1. Nothing in any printed book states that the orbs are non-magical, only the ill-informed players have been stating that. If it wasn't magical, Globe of Invulnerability wouldn't stop it - but it does. Deal with it. 2. Orbs go through antimagic fields, deal with it. Antimagic fields are only a 10' radius emanation anyways And you don't see the inherent contradiction? AMF says that the effects of Instantaneous Conjurations go through because the effects are non-magical, since the Conjuration itself is already completed. If the effects are magical, they don't go through. It's not a matter of being ill-informed, is a matter of things either being non-magical or magical, not both at the same time or whichever happens to be more convenient at a particular moment. 3. Orbs aren't broken, deal with it. Only someone's narrow view of the very broad range of printed spells prevents them from realizing this. That, and they seem to ignore fighters. They *are* broken in the sense that they tip school-school balance strongly in favor of Conjuration. (What? They didn't have enough ways to do damage while ignoring this stuff already?) Though, personally, I find that "broken" is a ridiculously vague word, and I prefer the term "unbalanced" for this particular sort of problem. Seriously, if a Conjurer can do everything an Evoker can do, just better, and to more things (Between the ability to ignore SR, and the easy access to Sonic damage), and also do some other important things that Evocation can't do at all (the majority of Battlefield Control spells, for example, NTM Summoning and Calling spells), then you just eliminated the Evoker as a class. There's never a reason not to make Evocation a banned school, and there's never a reason to make Conjuration a banned school, as it's irreplacably good. If you don't want to play DnD, you don't have to. Neither do you. Which is to say, nobody's suggested that they don't want to play D&D. It's possible to disagree over the rules, or think that certain of the content is stupid and still enjoy the game overall. Frankly, a "love it or leave it" sort of statement like this is pointlessly obnoxious.
Pentar 07-16-07, 01:36 AM	Had you read my previous posts, you would be aware that conflict exists between how Orbs are supposed to work and the PHB description of Instantaneous Conjurations and why AMF does not affect them. This information is still a part of RAW. AFAICT, *this* is the RAW that Kursk is pointing to. And he's right: The PHB states in no uncertain terms that the reason Instantaneous Conjurations are not affected by AMF is because they are not magical effects, even though they were created by magic. So, a Fabricated sword doesn't wink out of existence, nor does Created Water. However, if, by some stretch of the imagination, there existed an Instantaneous Conjuration that somehow created an effect that was obviously and self-evidently magical in nature, then it stands to reason that the rationale given would not apply and thus, such an Instantaneous Conjuration would still be subject to AMF. No, you see... I understand where you guys are coming from. I'm simply saying that by RAW, they are instantaneous conjurations. Thus they are non-magical. Part of why, I suppose, they offer no Spell Resistance. How a ball of "non-magical sonic energy" hold together to be used as an attack... I Have No Freakin' Clue. Be that as it may, that it makes no sense that an Orb of <anything> should hold together after it is cast, it simply does it. Until errata'd or some bizarre explanation is put forth, they technically do work against AMF.
Leilond 07-16-07, 04:11 AM	1. Nothing in any printed book states that the orbs are non-magical, only the ill-informed players have been stating that. If it wasn't magical, Globe of Invulnerability wouldn't stop it - but it does. Deal with it. Sorry, but the MANUALS say that "istantaneous conjuration" bring to reality "non magical things". Before talking, accurately read the manuals 2. Orbs go through antimagic fields, deal with it. Antimagic fields are only a 10' radius emanation anyways First of all there are also "death magic" and you can have "3 or four AMF one after the other", so your orb can bass 40' before hitting his tharget Secondary, the people that don't like orbs already said that by the RAW orbs pass AMF. The RAW are clear and the orb pass the AMF. We don't like and we won't admit that in our games. Luckly the DM has the power to do that 3. Orbs aren't broken, deal with it. Only someone's narrow view of the very broad range of printed spells prevents them from realizing this. That, and they seem to ignore fighters. Luckly I can say what is broken and what it isn't in my games. So, in my games, orbs are completely broken and concede SR and do not pass an AMF 4. Overthinking, and nitpicking the rules creates long drawn out wastes of time, like say... this thread. Luckly you cannot say us what is a "waste of time". We think we're using our time very well If you think you're wasting your time, why are you posting here at all? If you don't want to play DnD, you don't have to. Luckly we can play D&D, enjoying it, and changing some rules that we don't like
yrogerg 07-16-07, 09:09 PM	1. Nothing in any printed book states that the orbs are non-magical, only the ill-informed players have been stating that. If it wasn't magical, Globe of Invulnerability wouldn't stop it - but it does. Deal with it. Erm, it may just be my penchant for reading text literally, but Globe of Invulnerability doesn't say anything about only stopping "magical" effects. It simply says that it blocks all spell effects of level 4 or lower. Period. Orbs don't need to be magical to be stopped by the GoI, they just need to be effects created by spells.
noctivagus 07-16-07, 10:13 PM	How do orbs hold together without magic? I haven't the slightest, but I haven't the slightest as to how to summon one in real life, either. I'm pretty sure elementals aren't dissolved by AMFs, but they are clearly pure element being held together somehow.
Radiun 07-16-07, 11:16 PM	Orb of Acid Acid bullet projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. Orb of Cold Blue Liquid Nitrogen bullet projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. Orb of Electricity Ball Lightning. I don't know how it works in real life, so :P Orb of Fire Orb of Magma projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. I know it says it's basically a dart of white flame, but this is easier. Orb of Force Actually a Concussion Grenade that looses it's potency really quickly. Orb of Sound Actually creates a small one time use ThunderStone-like item that detonates on impact. It looses it's potency really quickly Should I take over the job of whoever wrote these orb spells?:P
NobodyRemembersThis 07-17-07, 01:14 AM	3. Orbs aren't broken, deal with it. Only someone's narrow view of the very broad range of printed spells prevents them from realizing this. That, and they seem to ignore fighters.I call bull pucky. Are they overpowered? arguable - the lesser versions deal more damage than most core 1st level spells. The higher level versions are almost ok. But the fact that the Orb spells are really an Evocation that has a ridiculously flimsy core justification for being labeled Conjuration (Creation) is the problem. See the discussion >HERE< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=886121) for more reasons why designers of the Orb spells willingly and willfully violated the core rules when creating the Orb spells. The Orb spells should be SR: yes and Evocation, not SR: no and Conjuration.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-17-07, 01:18 AM	Orb of Acid Acid bullet projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. Orb of Cold Blue Liquid Nitrogen bullet projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. Orb of Electricity Ball Lightning. I don't know how it works in real life, so :P Orb of Fire Orb of Magma projected at high enough speeds to retain it's cohesion. I don't think people really mind this one. Could even be encased in a small fragile shell to break on impact. I know it says it's basically a dart of white flame, but this is easier. Orb of Force Actually a Concussion Grenade that looses it's potency really quickly. Orb of Sound Actually creates a small one time use ThunderStone-like item that detonates on impact. It looses it's potency really quickly Should I take over the job of whoever wrote these orb spells?:PClose. Acid is fine. Just change it to create actual acid and you are fine. Fire is Alchemists Fire. Sonic is good as a thunderstone on crack. Thunder should actually be a small ball of ironm with a heavy static charge. Force should strictly be Evocation - there is no way to mimic it outside of magic. Concusion grenades are just heated metal and a blast of sound to stun. Not pure force. ;)
Radiun 07-17-07, 01:32 AM	Force should strictly be Evocation - there is no way to mimic it outside of magic. Concusion grenades are just heated metal and a blast of sound to stun. Not pure force. ;) I realize Wiki shouldn't be the basis for this, but it's what I looked up for a quickie research before posting :):P "The shock wave overpressure produced by this grenade when used in enclosed areas is greater than that produced by the fragmentation grenade. Therefore, it is especially effective in enclosed areas." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure If this is correct, I think increased atmospheric pressure could count as "Force";)
ArcTan 07-17-07, 01:43 AM	I realize Wiki shouldn't be the basis for this, but it's what I looked up for a quickie research before posting :):P "The shock wave overpressure produced by this grenade when used in enclosed areas is greater than that produced by the fragmentation grenade. Therefore, it is especially effective in enclosed areas." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure If this is correct, I think increased atmospheric pressure could count as "Force";) Er, no, it couldn't. Can you make an impenetrable, indestructible wall out of "increased atmospheric pressure"? Can you make a barrier of it that surrounds someone that absolutely no amount of energy can break through? Manipulating waves in the air is pretty clearly *sonic* damage, not force damage. Force damage is some weird kind of Star Trek force field that doesn't exist in real life.
ArcTan 07-17-07, 01:44 AM	Close. Acid is fine. Just change it to create actual acid and you are fine. Fire is Alchemists Fire. Sonic is good as a thunderstone on crack. Thunder should actually be a small ball of ironm with a heavy static charge. Force should strictly be Evocation - there is no way to mimic it outside of magic. Concusion grenades are just heated metal and a blast of sound to stun. Not pure force. ;) It still begs the question how this particular mundane acid can become increasingly corrosive based on the potency of the spellcaster casting it, in contrast with all other mundane acid found anywhere. It's energy damage being evoked from the power of the spellcaster making it. By rights it should be Evocation.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-17-07, 02:07 AM	It still begs the question how this particular mundane acid can become increasingly corrosive based on the potency of the spellcaster casting it, in contrast with all other mundane acid found anywhere. It's energy damage being evoked from the power of the spellcaster making it. By rights it should be Evocation.Possibly. However, as all of the current acid spells are conjuration (Acid Splash, Acid Arrow, et all) it makes more sense for Acid Orb to create a magically enhanced acid and remain conjuration. Personally, I'd love the orb spells to deal acid damage over rounds instead of increase the dice. Say 1d8 acid, and 1 point per round for 1 round/2 levels for Lesser Acid Orb. Then have Acid Orb deal 5d6 on the first round, and 3d6 each round for 4 rounds. Scrap the rest of them. But that's just me. It would make them more in line with the current Acid spells. Also would make them more decently balanced IMO.
Radiun 07-17-07, 05:02 AM	Er, no, it couldn't. Can you make an impenetrable, indestructible wall out of "increased atmospheric pressure"? Can you make a barrier of it that surrounds someone that absolutely no amount of energy can break through? Manipulating waves in the air is pretty clearly *sonic* damage, not force damage. Force damage is some weird kind of Star Trek force field that doesn't exist in real life. I never said it was the only application/incarnation of Force, but being squeezed by an increasingly dense atmosphere does seem like something very few creatures could resist. Besides you could change it too "only the creature hit by the "grenade" is close enough to take damage because the Force dissipates quickly. Doesn't really matter to me. But conjuring a (fairly) mundane transportation device for Force and Sonic energy does make them passing an AMF more believable no?
Leilond 07-17-07, 05:52 AM	But "force" has nothing to do with pressure or other "natural beings" Force is like the "magic missile", "wall of force" and the like effects. It is an ENERGY itself, not the effect of pressure or other energies I think the spells are bad designed. You can make a lot of strange reasoning to justify the way they work, but all this reasoning demostrate itself that those spells do not stay in the rules and aren't coerent with the rest of the magic system Make them "evocation" and "SR: yes" and all with go in his place
Optimator 07-17-07, 06:30 AM	How do orbs hold together without magic? I haven't the slightest, but I haven't the slightest as to how to summon one in real life, either. *I'm pretty sure elementals aren't dissolved by AMFs, but they are clearly pure element being held together somehow.* I think this is a very good point. Maybe the orbs just stay together however elementals do?
Leilond 07-17-07, 06:40 AM	I think this is a very good point. Maybe the orbs just stay together however elementals do? Not quite The fire elementa isn't "pure fire". He deliver "blunt damage" with his "slam", that means there is a solid matter that "burn". The orb create a "orb of fire" and do not deal any "blunt damage". It's "pure fire" and cannot use the "fire elemental" way to mantain coesion. And most of all, elementals are CREATURES, with living metabolism that take them alive Too much reasoning and assumptions have to be made to justify these spells within the rest of the magic system. They're simply bad designed.
Radiun 07-17-07, 06:49 AM	But "force" has nothing to do with pressure or other "natural beings" Force is like the "magic missile", "wall of force" and the like effects. It is an ENERGY itself, not the effect of pressure or other energies I think the spells are bad designed. You can make a lot of strange reasoning to justify the way they work, but all this reasoning demostrate itself that those spells do not stay in the rules and aren't coerent with the rest of the magic system Make them "evocation" and "SR: yes" and all with go in his place Unfortunately Force has no clear cut definition ingame that I could find, though if you want to define it as "Raw Magical Energy" (I think that's what you were saying), then a Magic Grenade still works... unless you can explain Wall of Force working in an AMF but no other Force effects working. It's just altering flavour to make a bit more sense. Note: I wouldn't be opposed to WotC altering the Orb Spells to Evocation, but am trying to work within RAW
Leilond 07-17-07, 07:16 AM	Unfortunately Force has no clear cut definition ingame that I could find, though if you want to define it as "Raw Magical Energy" (I think that's what you were saying), then a Magic Grenade still works... unless you can explain Wall of Force working in an AMF but no other Force effects working. It's just altering flavour to make a bit more sense. Force is clearly stated as an energy. The wall of force work in AMF because it has a special rule. Pheraps that spell is so strong to not being influenced by an AMF. I prefer to justify a single spell that has a special rule, that to invent a reasoning to make an entire bounch of spells work in a system that do not admit their existence. There's a reason because only "acid" is "SR: no" in the PHB, because the idea of magic is that all energies cannot "live alone". Orb break that idea, making all the other spells (like fireball) lack of effectiveness in AMF totally unjustified. Note: I wouldn't be opposed to WotC altering the Orb Spells to Evocation, but am trying to work within RAW I too try that... until playing within RAW make the game system fly from the windows.
NobodyRemembersThis 07-17-07, 08:04 AM	Note: I wouldn't be opposed to WotC altering the Orb Spells to Evocation, but am trying to work within RAWI too try that... until playing within RAW make the game system fly from the windows.Ah. Then, sneek a peak at the errata file on book precedence. When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.So, since the PHB is correct in this and the spells violate the PHB rulesset, you are completely with the rules to modify the spells so that they observe the PHB. :)
Leilond 07-17-07, 09:26 AM	Ah. Then, sneek a peak at the errata file on book precedence. When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.So, since the PHB is correct in this and the spells violate the PHB rulesset, you are completely with the rules to modify the spells so that they observe the PHB. :) Unfortunately not In this situation no book "violate the PHB". The RAW are clear: orbs ignore SR and pass AMF An house rule that say: orbs do not ignore SR and do not pass AMF is better, more within the general idea of magic and more in the same ground with all the PHB spell
ArcTan 07-17-07, 08:45 PM	I never said it was the only application/incarnation of Force, but being squeezed by an increasingly dense atmosphere does seem like something very few creatures could resist. Creatures who aren't made of anything solid at all and don't exist on this plane ought to be able to resist such a thing, and yet Ethereal creatures are vulnerable to Force damage, so that's not it. Also, Force damage works in environments where there's no atmosphere at all, so that also can't be it. Besides you could change it too "only the creature hit by the "grenade" is close enough to take damage because the Force dissipates quickly. Doesn't really matter to me. But conjuring a (fairly) mundane transportation device for Force and Sonic energy does make them passing an AMF more believable no? Yes, if you want to reinterpret what Force damage is so that it's not an interesting fantasy concept anymore but just the equivalent of bludgeoning damage. And, frankly, I never cared about "believable vs. unbelievable", I cared about "stupid vs. non-stupid". Saying that orb of force makes a military-issue concussion grenade with a chemical explosive inside is THE STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD. That's why I dislike the Orb spells -- they feel *stupid* to me. I don't care whether you can justify them or not, they look and sound and act *stupid*.
sh0ck-wav3 12-08-07, 09:56 PM	Looks like I'm in the same boat as a lot of people here .. Orb spells just don't seem to be 'right'; their rules are sound as per the Core rule books, but the spells themselves just seem to be a favourable interpretatoin of the rules to make a number of powerful and difficult to resist spells. The only Orb spells that I think 'work' are the Orb of Acid and Lesser Orb of Acid. Leaving anything to do with Acid in Conjuration makes sence to me, its a non-magical substance rather then an energy so to be able to create it magically and then hurl it as a non-magical projectile is acceptable for conjuration, and definately allows a ranged touch attack with no SR. My thoughts are that an Orb of Acid could therefor go through an AMF and strike targets inside. However it could not be created inside the AMF since it's creation is through magic which is being suppressed. I just have a big problem with the 'energy' Orbs. Casting a fireball or lightning bolt or what ever is perfectly fine because its 'magic' .. and magic can do all these wonderful things and doesn't need to make any sence. However with the Orb spells they're saying that the effect is NOT magical, and so needs to then come under some semblence of logic. A ball of electricity can be brought into being and controlled through magic, but once that magic is removed how exactly is the lightning being controlled and held together ? With Acid you have the precedence of Melf's Acid Arrow and Acid Splash, but all the other Lightning and Force and Sonic effects are Evocation as you'd assume they require a level of magical control to hold them together. There's been a few examples on how an Orb of Fire or Cold or whatever could exist (however flaky and dodgy), so I'm reluctantly happy to keep those spells as they are. But I have a big problem with the Orb of Force spell, as I don't see any way in which you can create non-magical 'force'. (If they called the spell 'Brick of Force' or something like that and hurled a physical object at the target then even that would make more sence). The spell is difficult to counter, easy to hit with, and its range is too long. The only saving grace is that DR should work completely against an Orb of Force as its a non-magical attack. So even a measily ole Grick gets to take 10 points of damage off an Orb of Force attack because it has DR 10/Magic. As a cast spell its fine, but the first thing my party did was make wands and wands and wands of it and just hit everything with an Orb of Force. As it has no other effects and isn't counterable some encounters just end up being anoying slug fest with a single, boring spell thats too easy to hit with and does large amounts of damage .. AND can get a critical. Keep Orb spells as they are, but remove Orb of Force .. and probably Orb of Sound aswell (non-magical balls of sound floating through the air ??).
ravenshrike 12-09-07, 10:03 AM	Thanks. My only contention is that in order to function as described there would have to be magic involved until impact. Other than that I don't have a problem. Does a pitcher hold on to the ball on the way to the plate? No? Then that's how the magic manipulates the orb spells.
yrogerg 12-09-07, 11:36 AM	Does a pitcher hold on to the ball on the way to the plate? No? Then that's how the magic manipulates the orb spells. Is a baseball a solid object that's capable of holding itself together without having an external force that's acting on it? Yes?
ravenshrike 12-09-07, 01:47 PM	Is a baseball a solid object that's capable of holding itself together without having an external force that's acting on it? Yes? If there's enough force behind a spurt of water, does it continue moving, although it may not end up as an orb? Yes? It starts as an orb, compressed by the magic. The magic accelerates the orb. The magic vanishes. In between vanishing and hitting, the most that would happen with an orb of acid would be some slight distension in the orb.