Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ascian 03-29-04, 05:42 PM	I've searched and read, and nobody seems to give any kind of conclusive answer, so I'm bringing it up myself. 1. Why does the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost triple regular weapon enhancements? I realize enhancements are more powerful in (on) the hands of a Monk, but triple seems rather excessive. 2. In your opinion, could one get enhancement effects such as Flaming or Vicious on their Amulet? Why or why not? Now tell me if they should (in other words, first question asks about mechanics, second question asks about balance and ethics). It seems fair to me, so I'm looking for someone to give me a good reason not to allow it. 3. I also intend to allow Gloves of Mighty Fists. Thoughts? Also, please don't suggest the Necklace of Natural Attacks; since it and the Amulet of Mighty Fists effectively do the same thing, and the Amulet is both more recent and more core, the Amulet is obviously a replacement for the Necklace.
Seeker95 03-29-04, 08:03 PM	1. You answered the question yourself. They are more powerful. 2. No reason not to. But I would follow the same pattern as the base item. Triple the cost. 3. Your call.
mean_liar 03-29-04, 11:40 PM	Actually, the Amulet was first introduced in Sword and Fist, which came much earlier than Savage Species' Necklace. By your logic, the original Amulet was the first thing, which was replaced by the Bracers of Striking from Magic of Faerun, which was replaced by the Necklace of Natural Attacks from Savage Species, which was then re-replaced by the Amulet of Natural Attacks. I think you're presuming too much design intent. All three items (Necklace, Bracers, and Amulet) offer enhancement bonuses to unarmed strikes, with the Necklace and Bracers offering the capability to be outfitted with enhancement abilities (Corrosive, Sweeping, etc), and the Necklace costs x1, the Bracers x2, and the Amulet x3. There's no real progression in here, just a smattering of items in different supplements that all attempt to rectify the lack of ooopmh in the enhanced monk category. All were written by different writers in different settings for different books, and I highly doubt they were instituted as a master plan by the RnD department to deal with monks getting all out of hand and uppity. I think its more a case of a culmination of factors: one hand not really paying attention to the others, the desire to reintroduce early splatbook material into the game for those joining into v3.5 (who resumably wouldnt be purchasing the v3.0 splatbooks), and the general hands-off policy WotC has as regards the relationship between Monk unarmed strikes and natural attacks. Now, you're welcome to debate the relative merit of a x3 multiple on the item, but I don't think that designer intent is going to be a magic bullet that forecloses any discussion on the matter. To answer the original question, I believe that they do not offer enhancements to monks because they feel that is what Monk weapons are for. I imagine the designers did not like the idea of doing 2d10 base damage and then being able to add in all the goodies a sword can get, on top of the Flurrying that would be going on. Hence the x3 price multiple as well. I found that the bonuses a Monk can get on their unarmed attacks are best spent on DR-defeating measures, which is a monk's greatest weakness. I would suggest that if you're unsure but want to throw your monks a bone, allowing Players Guide to Faerun's "Sure Striking" and Underdarks "Mettalline" , and the DMG's "Ghost Touch" properties to be added to Amulets/Gloves/etc as a minimum shouldn't present too many difficulties with game balance.
Lady Ishtar 03-30-04, 01:25 AM	there is a big difference between amulet of mighty fists and necklace of natural attacks necklace of nat att is specific to certain natural weapons, such as claw and bite, which is specific to each amulet. monk uses every part of her body for combat, not only fists or feet, so a necklace of nat att that would apply to all of monks natural weapons would be bogusly expensive amulet of mighty fists on the other hand adds an enhancement bonus to ALL your natural attacks, but doesnt let you add any special abilities to it if your monk wants cool special abilities, settle for a monk weapon, is enough that you can deal more damage withyour bare hands than a greatsword hope this helps as for gloves of mighy fists... sounds reasonable to me
Ascian 03-30-04, 03:08 AM	Thank you, Liar. Your response was the most well-formulated and sensible I've seen in any discussion of this topic. Also thank you for the suggested enhancement properties; I was already considering those very elements for that precise reason. Also, metalline fists would be the baddest of bad-:censored:. Oh, and thank you too, Lady Ishtar, for that clarification on the difference between the two items. Definitely food for thought. No thanks to Seeker95, though. He always chimes in on my posts, so I pretty much expect it. :D Just kidding. To throw things in a slightly different direction, Seeker has always said the element which keeps one from simply adding enhancements to natural weapons is the requirement that the weapon in question be masterwork. So the simple question is... how would one get Masterwork Fists? Or, for the truer interpretation of Monkish Unarmed Strike, a Masterwork Body? I suggest getting Flesh to Stoned, Stone Shaped by a true artist, and then Stone to Fleshed back into the perfect masterpiece you now are. :P
Seeker95 03-30-04, 09:14 AM	Originally posted by Ascian I suggest getting Flesh to Stoned, Stone Shaped by a true artist, and then Stone to Fleshed back into the perfect masterpiece you now are. :P Just pray to all the gods that the true artist makes his craft check on the first try!
Mr.Waesel 03-30-04, 10:48 AM	Originally posted by Ascian I realize enhancements are more powerful in (on) the hands of a Monk, You do? Could you tell, me since when I look at the monk class, all the blood rushes to my head and all I can think is "three-quarters bab".
TaisharMalkier 03-30-04, 11:32 AM	Zug Zug. It makes a lot of sense if you're TWFing with a monk. You only need one amulet instead of two weapons, so 1.5x the normal cost of 2 weapons. Cheers
Ascian 03-30-04, 12:38 PM	Originally posted by TaisharMalkier It makes a lot of sense if you're TWFing with a monk. You only need one amulet instead of two weapons, so 1.5x the normal cost of 2 weapons. I've seen this argument before, and I must say that, while sound in theory, it breaks down at the claim that one must have two weapons to TWF. There *are* feats (such as Two-Weapon Defense) that specifically call for a second weapon, but when Two-Weapon Fighting you only need one weapon that you can pass from hand to hand as a free action (free action to go from one-handed to two-handed, free action to go from two-handed to one-handed). As for the ways that enhancements on Monk's unarmed strike are superior to those on normal weapons, let me count the ways. 1. A Monk can deliver an unarmed strike with any part of his body. This means that where the party Barbarian carrying an armload of party loot is out of the fight, the Monk is at no disadvantage and still delivers nasty magical/elemental/etc damage. 2. A Monk cannot have his unarmed strike stolen, misplaced, rusted, sundered, repelled, disarmed, disintegrated, or any other such weapon-specific danger. When the party's fighting a werebear Druid who simply uses Repel Metal to scatter their silver weapons to the winds, the Monk will still be hammering away with his +1 Metalline fists. 3. A Monk's unarmed strike can be used, without penalty, in a grapple. Damage-wise, with the Amulet, this would be like bringing a Large +1 Keen Greatsword into the grapple with you. 4. Let's not forget the gigantic damage die the Monk's unarmed strike develops. Many argue that he doesn't need a damage boost, and they're probably right, but when one has 3/4 BAB one wants one's hits to really count. There are probably other factors, but I just woke up and this is the best I can do before coffee.
Lady Ishtar 03-30-04, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel You do? Could you tell, me since when I look at the monk class, all the blood rushes to my head and all I can think is "three-quarters bab". because being immune to poison and disease, dimention door, walk faster than a greased weasel, having all good saves, and WIS bonus to AC are worthless compared to getting full BAB:twitch:
Mr.Waesel 03-31-04, 03:40 AM	And not being able to wear armor AND not being able to have enhancements on your weapons. And yeah, 3/4 bab is the suck for a fighting class.
Lady Ishtar 03-31-04, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel And not being able to wear armor AND not being able to have enhancements on your weapons. And yeah, 3/4 bab is the suck for a fighting class. you make the monk sound worthless, if you dont like them dont play them. and sacrificing at most +5 to your BAB isnt that much considering you can get extra 2 attacks from flurry. lets not forget stunning fist. if you want to level the playing field even more, use weakening touch from CW to drop their STR by 6 points if you want some cool enhancements get necklace of natural attacks for your fists and there you go, just make sure that you can always use your fists
Mr.Waesel 03-31-04, 11:02 AM	I'm seriously considering giving them full bab...
Josh Wilhoyte 03-31-04, 11:57 AM	An interesting point to consider when thinking about the Amulet of Natural Fists is the Magic Fang Spell (and the Greater version). Magic Fang makes a single portion of the Monk enchanted. You have to declare whether it is a hand or a knee or the forehead or an elbow or whatever. Greater Magic Fang allows one to make the whole body a +1 weapon or a single attack function (the fist, knee, foot, etc.) a +X weapon. Obviously WOTC considers the "natural attacks" of a monk to be different than picking up a single weapon. The monk is at least nine separate weapons all rolled into one, so they want it to cost more to enchant them (plus the whole unsunderable, unrusting, no cost issue for a monk's natural weapons).
Seeker95 03-31-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel I'm seriously considering giving them full bab... If you do that, you would never see another fighter in your campaign again. A monk with a full BAB is a no brainer!
Ascian 03-31-04, 01:27 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 If you do that, you would never see another fighter in your campaign again. A monk with a full BAB is a no brainer! True dat. What do you think would be balanced for a Monk to surrender in order to get full BAB? Someday I'll probably use Unearthed Arcana as a guideline for cooking up a Brawler class...
lanilifar 03-31-04, 02:12 PM	A 20th level monk using flurry gets 5 attacks at 15/15/15/10/5 deals 2d10 base damage pays triple cost to make all 5 attacks magically enhanced A 20th level fighter with a short sword and dagger, and all core TWF feats 18/18/13/13/8/8/5 dealing 1d6, 1d4 base damage pays double cost to make all 7 attacks magically enhanced IMO, the amulet should be double cost, not triple.
Lady Ishtar 03-31-04, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by lanilifar A 20th level monk using flurry gets 5 attacks at 15/15/15/10/5 deals 2d10 base damage pays triple cost to make all 5 attacks magically enhanced A 20th level fighter with a short sword and dagger, and all core TWF feats 18/18/13/13/8/8/5 dealing 1d6, 1d4 base damage pays double cost to make all 7 attacks magically enhanced IMO, the amulet should be double cost, not triple. said fighter has 2 weapons, so he pays full cost of enchanting each weapon, hence double the cost.... 400,000gp for 2 +10 weapons the monk on the other hand uses different body parts as separate weapons: 2 hands, 2 elbows, 2 knees, 2 feet, 1 head (unless youre an ettin), thats 9 separate weapons. paying triple the cost for enchanting 9 separate weapons is dirt cheap if you ask me.... 150,000gp for 9 +5 weapons
Ascian 03-31-04, 03:57 PM	Charging Monks for every body part that could be used in an unarmed strike serves only to punish the flavour of Monks. I can just see it; 'Lao jumps into the air, palm-strikes the BBEG, and then does a critical hit whirlwind kick when he lands! That guy's finished!' 'Well, he *would* be, except you've only got your *fists* enchanted, so his damage reduction soaks everything your kick would have dealt.' 'All right, fine. Next round, I punch him. And then I punch him again. And then I punch him again. Whee.' Now don't get me wrong; I think that's a good way to apply the Necklace, as a cheaper way to have just one bodypart enhanced (even though the Unarmed Strike is, itself, the only Natural Weapon the Monk has, and should thus count for his whole body). I just don't like the rationale that a Monk has nine different weapons when really he just has one weapon he uses in different ways.
Seeker95 03-31-04, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by Ascian What do you think would be balanced for a Monk to surrender in order to get full BAB?Nothing. If you want an unarmed fighter at full BAB, play an unarmed fighter.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-31-04, 05:13 PM	D20 Modern has a great martial artist class. It doesn't do 2d10 points of damage with its fists, has cool abilities like flying leap and +1 BAB/level, and doesn't have pointless abilities like slow fall and wholeness of body. (Yes, wholeness of body can save your life, but what does it have to do with martial arts?) As for the Amulet, I think it's fine on it's own. IMC I hate the monk's belt so much that I replaced it with an item of the same name. It has the double (not triple) cost, but it only works for monks. Not thri-kreen, not monk/druid crosses, just monks.
Lady Ishtar 03-31-04, 05:33 PM	d20 modern martial artist is really cool, but... monk gets slow fall, wholeness of the body, etc. because they work to perfect body and mind, while the d20 modern martial artist perfects only the body i think the d20 modern martial artist would be a great PrC for an unarmed fighter after some modifications to fit D&D (and i beleive its not good enough to make monks obsolete)
Jaerom Darkwind 03-31-04, 07:20 PM	Originally posted by Ascian I've seen this argument before, and I must say that, while sound in theory, it breaks down at the claim that one must have two weapons to TWF. There *are* feats (such as Two-Weapon Defense) that specifically call for a second weapon, but when Two-Weapon Fighting you only need one weapon that you can pass from hand to hand as a free action (free action to go from one-handed to two-handed, free action to go from two-handed to one-handed)... !!! I've never heard that. Is this true, or were you making it up? It's possible for a character to TWF with a single weapon? That would be awesome if true, but like I said, i've never seen or heard of that before. Where did you read it?
Tonus 03-31-04, 07:57 PM	Originally posted by Ascian To throw things in a slightly different direction, Seeker has always said the element which keeps one from simply adding enhancements to natural weapons is the requirement that the weapon in question be masterwork. So the simple question is... how would one get Masterwork Fists? Or, for the truer interpretation of Monkish Unarmed Strike, a Masterwork Body? At 20th level, a monk gains the Perfect Self class feature. Perfection has got to be at least masterwork, does it not?
lanilifar 03-31-04, 08:22 PM	thats 9 separate weapons. paying triple the cost for enchanting 9 separate weapons is dirt cheap if you ask me Who cares? It could be 20 weapons, and the monk is still only getting 5 attacks. It would be different if you were enchanting all nine of those parts with different special properties (left foot of flaming, right foot of frost, left fist of screaming, ghost touch right fist of undead bane, Brilliant Energy head of speed, etc.). That is not what is happening. What you are getting is 9 weapons which must all have the same enchantment for triple the cost giving you 5 attacks. Vs the TWF, with 2 weapons, which can be enchanted differently, but you must pay for each (thus in essence doubling the cost), giving you 7 attacks (with a better BAB). It is obscene that the amulet costs as much as it does.
Mr.Waesel 04-01-04, 05:38 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 If you do that, you would never see another fighter in your campaign again. A monk with a full BAB is a no brainer! I'd make it a core-only camapign, so the fighter would deal more damage and have a higher AC. EDIT: and noone wants to be a fighter IMC anyway...;)
Ascian 04-01-04, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by Jaerom Darkwind On an unrelated note: !!! I've never heard that. Is this true, or were you making it up? It's possible for a character to TWF with a single weapon? That would be awesome if true, but like I said, i've never seen or heard of that before. Where did you read it? The best answer I can give is that I don't see why not. The feat does mention a second weapon, now that I look again, but it seems particularly rules lawyery to me to say that a second weapon is actually required just to get iterative attacks. In real life, you pass the weapon to the other hand and strike. And mechanically it works as well, since swapping hands is a free action. The only justification I can see for requiring a second weapon is if one feels that the cost of an additional weapon balances out the feat. Since I think one feat to get one attack is balanced, I don't see that any further material cost is required.
Seeker95 04-01-04, 02:38 PM	Originally posted by Ascian The best answer I can give is that I don't see why not. The feat does mention a second weapon, now that I look again, but it seems particularly rules lawyery to me to say that a second weapon is actually required just to get iterative attacks.You think it is rules lawyery to view "two weapon fighting" as requiring two weapons? That explains a lot. :whatsthis
TaisharMalkier 04-01-04, 05:34 PM	Zug Zug. "I've seen this argument before, and I must say that, while sound in theory, it breaks down at the claim that one must have two weapons to TWF. There *are* feats (such as Two-Weapon Defense) that specifically call for a second weapon, but when Two-Weapon Fighting you only need one weapon that you can pass from hand to hand as a free action (free action to go from one-handed to two-handed, free action to go from two-handed to one-handed)." Monks can TWF: Monk TWFing (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686).
Seeker95 04-01-04, 08:40 PM	Originally posted by TaisharMalkier Monks can TWF: Monk TWFing (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686). Monks have many weapons all the time.
Lady Ishtar 04-01-04, 09:54 PM	monks may not get as many attacks as TWF fighter, but in average they have a better overall to hit, and they deal more damage
Lago AM3P 04-01-04, 10:16 PM	There are two straw men here. First of all is comparing amulet of mighty fists to a TWF with gauntlets; no sane monk would ever pay the costs, considering how frickin' expensive real armor is. Most monks I know suck up greater magic weapons from the clerics and wizards, and though this spell was heavily nerfed, this is still a much better deal than actually paying for those damn things. However, a TWF with fists is not going to just be satisfied with two +5 gauntlets. For not too much money, a twentieth level fighter-type could pick up a pair of +1 flaming, shocking, icy, subdual gauntlets, get them enhanced by GMW, and then run around doing 1d4+4d6 damage, average 16.5 damage to a monk's 11. Even worse case (a monster immune to one of the elements AND to the subdual property), that's still 9.5 to 11. And in all honesty, the fighter-type is looking to dish out much better than that. The only time a monk will pull ahead of an average case scenario is if he enlarges himself to at least huge size, which causes many adventuring problems in standard D&D. Secondly, even if a monk had full BAB, they are still sort of a straw man compared to regular fighter types. Single-classed Fighter types have numerous problems, such as the last 10 levels of every goddam full-BAB class being WORSE than the first four levels and being unable to take on challenges of appropriate CR (due to, with one exception, poor saves and a decline in per-level abilities) without gigantic amounts of buffs or magical weaponry handed out by the DM. The monk would join the ranks of these fighters if they had full BAB, but at least some of their levels would show up in builds. The 'real' contributing fighter-type is massively multiclassed, and, if they're past level 8, have levels in PrCs. The fact that the monk really starts to take off at around this level highlights the fact that they still won't be as good as real fighters people have done all along.
Lago AM3P 04-01-04, 10:18 PM	monks may not get as many attacks as TWF fighter, but in average they have a better overall to hit, and they deal more damage No. Not even to a TWF 'fighter', who is almost definitely going to walk away with weapon focus and a better BAB. Compared to multiclassed fighter-types, the monk comes out a clear, undisputable loser in attack schemes among classes whose basic, plot-advancing function is to hurt things.
lanilifar 04-01-04, 10:28 PM	monks may not get as many attacks as TWF fighter, but in average they have a better overall to hit, and they deal more damage Uhm. No, not really. Monk - 15 15 15 10 5 - avg = 12 TWF - 18 18 13 13 8 8 5 avg = 11.86 Pretty much the same on average. I also find the two 18s will be really valuable (+3 to hit is a big deal, many times).
Lago AM3P 04-01-04, 10:45 PM	That's also considering the fact that the monk's attack ability is compared to an NON-PLAYER CHARACTER CLASS, THE WARRIOR, and the monk is in fact using at least eleven levels worth of class abilities to get that high. Screw that noise. If I had eleven levels to make a comparable unarmed fighter, it would not be pretty at all. Let's go with /druid/.
TaisharMalkier 04-02-04, 01:32 AM	Zug Zug. "Monk - 15 15 15 10 5" TWF - 18 18 13 13 8 8 5" You're doing it wrong. If you're comparing TWFing, it's: Monk - 13 13 13 13 8 8 3 3 TWF Fighter - 18 18 13 13 8 8 3 Cheers
Lady Ishtar 04-02-04, 01:42 AM	i think ive read somewhere that TWF and flurry cant be used together, but im not sure if ive read it somewhere or im just imagining things
Lago AM3P 04-02-04, 05:40 AM	Even if monks have 8 attacks to a real TWF's 7, and all of the attacks are made with such a lower attack bonus that it makes us cry--this actually serves to make the monk worse. And this is, again, comparing the monk to an NPC class. Something which even fighters and bards have enough dignity to avoid.
Mad Miso 04-02-04, 09:52 AM	I have to agree on Lago on this. Too many assumptions are being thrown around here, including: 1. Monks fight as well as Full-BaB classes. They don't. 2. Full-Bab classes are even good. They aren't, comparitively. 3. A sane Monk would consider blowing most of his 7 feats on two-weapon fighting so he can suck more. 4. A monks unarmed damage is "uber" because it does more damage as he levels. Here's a quick comparison for you. 20th level Monk fist vs Greatsword. 1. Monkfist requires 20 class levels. Greatsword requires Martial Proff. 2. Monkfist does 2d10(Av11) damage. Greatsword does 2d6(Av7)damage. 3. Monkfist cannot be used with a sheild. Greatsword weilder can use an animated sheild.(an item I despise, but still core) 4. Monkfist has worst possible crit range. Greatsword has 19-20x2. 5. Monkfist can only be enchanted at x3 cost, with no special abilities. Also takes up some sort of body slot. Greatsword has no such restrictions. 6. Greatsword gets twice as much bonus damage from power-attack. 7. Greatsword gets a 1 1/2 Strength bonus. 8. Greatsword gets more favorable modifier when attempting to disarm. 9. Monkfist can't be disarmed. 10. Monkfist can be used in a grapple. As far as the amulet itself, lets just say a Monk could invest that money it almost anything else and still get a better return for his money. Too many people jump to conclusions without looking at this in depth. I'm hard pressed to even consider a 20th level Monks unarmed damage superior to a Masterwork Greastsword, much less one that has been enchanted to the hilt.
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-02-04, 10:29 AM	Originally posted by Lady Ishtar i think ive read somewhere that TWF and flurry cant be used together, but im not sure if ive read it somewhere or im just imagining things I believe you're imagining things. ;) Check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686) thread. It's the most official answer to that question I've come across so far.
Lady Ishtar 04-02-04, 10:53 AM	thanks Heron_Marked_Blade although it seems to me like a waste of feats, but thats just me also with all the monk bashing, everyone seems to forget that monk gets an insane amount of abilities, at least one each level, not counting faster movement. but i guess those are worthless compared to 5 point lower BAB at 20th lvl as for the amulet, instead of looking at a monk, lets look at a tiger instead they have 5 different weapons: bite, 2 claws, 2 rakes +5 amulet costs 150Kgp, gives the bonus to all attacks enchanting all those weapons separetley, so they can have cool abilities: 50Kgp per weapon = 250Kgp total (for an overall +5 bonus to each) if i have to equip myself and my animal companion, the amulet starts to look very good
Jaerom Darkwind 04-02-04, 01:20 PM	I'm an advocate of cutting the price down to 2 weapons, and allowing the addition of other enhancements, just for the record. I've never found it to be unbalancing in my games, whatever the paper-analysis seems to suggest. Of course, all of this is moot if a monk does the smart thing and takes VoP. (I'm working on a Lawful adaptation of that feat, BTW, so non-good monks can also discover the joys of voluntary poverty.) :smirk:
lanilifar 04-02-04, 02:01 PM	if i have to equip myself and my animal companion, the amulet starts to look very good It is still only 5 attacks. The amulet should be based on/limited by number of attacks in a round. The amulet looks really good on a creature with 20 tentacle attacks, which is kind of ridiculous. An amulet that gave a bonus to all your natural attacks, but can only be used on 3 attacks per round could be priced as the weapon chart. Increase it to 7 attacks per round and price it double the weapon chart, make it the greater amulet. This would keep the amulet from being abused by druids, without making it nonsensically expensive for monks (the class for whom the amulet was designed).
Xeviat-DM 04-02-04, 02:24 PM	The biggest problem with the amulet of mighty fists is that it is granting +x to hit and +x to damage ontop of an already much higher base damage. Monks increased base unarmed damage is there to make up for the lack of an enhancement bonus. 1d8 (average damage for a light martial weapon, 4.5) compared to 2d10 (11) is a difference of 6.5 points of damage. Sure, it doesn't entirely make up for the lossed to hit, but it's something. Stacking extra to hit and extra damage ontop of that would be sick.
Ascian 04-02-04, 02:30 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 You think it is rules lawyery to view "two weapon fighting" as requiring two weapons? That explains a lot. :whatsthis Oh, yes, and when you do a Whirlwind Attack you obviously spin around like the Tasmanian Devil, and I forgot about the Spring Attack prerequisite that requires that you affix metal coils to your feet so as to bounce properly. :bored: Maybe the adjective I should have used was 'pedantic'. As for the 'that explains a lot' jab, care to explain? You've never been uncivil to me before, so if there's some longstanding beef to which this applies, I am unaware of its nature.
Staver 04-02-04, 02:37 PM	Originally posted by mean_liar Actually, the Amulet was first introduced in Sword and Fist, which came much earlier than Savage Species' Necklace. By your logic, the original Amulet was the first thing, which was replaced by the Bracers of Striking from Magic of Faerun, which was replaced by the Necklace of Natural Attacks from Savage Species, which was then re-replaced by the Amulet of Natural Attacks. Hey mean_liar, I've seen the Necklace of Natural Attacks. Where is this Amulet of Natural Attacks? -Thanks, Staver :confused: