An array of questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

An array of questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pentar
06-29-04, 12:18 PM Hello everyone,

I have some questions I wanted to ask about several things, so I'll put them forward here for answers. :)

1. The Twin Spell feat (Player's Guide to FR), allows a caster to cast the same spell used with this metamagic feat twice at the same time for double effect. If I had a Metamagic Rod of Maximizing and casted a Twin-Spell while using the rod, would the both spell effects get maximized? e.g.: I prepare Lightning Bolt as a Twin spell (takes a 7th-level slot) and then I cast it using the Rod of Maximizing - does this mean I do 60 damage + 10d6, or 120 damage (2 reflex saves, half for each).

This, of course, would apply for using it with any other metamagic rod. I'm just using Maximized as an example.

2. The Shadow Adept PrC level 10 ability is to create a Shadow Double of himself. It says the Shadow Double comes in with all the attributes, abilities and stats of the original, but none of the functioning equipment. Does this also mean prepared spells? Can the Shadow Double begin casting spells already prepared by the original Shadow Adept at the time the double was created?

3. Craft Contingent Spell Feat (from Unapproachable East) allows you to create "contingency-like" magical items that do not take up any magical item slot and hang around until discharged. It mentions the base cost but does not indicate how to calculate it. Specifically, it says;

Crafting a contingent spell takes 1 day for each 1000gp in its base price. To craft a contingent spell, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing half its base price.

A little later on, in the Magic and Spells chapter of the book, it mentions;

The market price of a contingent spell is spell level x caster level x 100gp

Does market price = base price? I don't think so, since I would believe market price is what it sells for and base price is the cost of actually doing it. I would imagine the market price has a mark-up value.

So what would be the base-price of crafting a contingent spell? I looked up Contingency (which, oddly enough, is -not- a pre-requisite spell for taking this feat) and it does not make any mention to costs there either.

That's it for now, although I'm sure I've got a couple of more questions. :)
Beamup
06-29-04, 12:32 PM Originally posted by Pentar
1. The Twin Spell feat (Player's Guide to FR), allows a caster to cast the same spell used with this metamagic feat twice at the same time for double effect. If I had a Metamagic Rod of Maximizing and casted a Twin-Spell while using the rod, would the both spell effects get maximized? e.g.: I prepare Lightning Bolt as a Twin spell (takes a 7th-level slot) and then I cast it using the Rod of Maximizing - does this mean I do 60 damage + 10d6, or 120 damage (2 reflex saves, half for each).

This, of course, would apply for using it with any other metamagic rod. I'm just using Maximized as an example.

I believe both would be maximized, barring language in Twin Spell to the contrary.

2. The Shadow Adept PrC level 10 ability is to create a Shadow Double of himself. It says the Shadow Double comes in with all the attributes, abilities and stats of the original, but none of the functioning equipment. Does this also mean prepared spells? Can the Shadow Double begin casting spells already prepared by the original Shadow Adept at the time the double was created?

Based on what you've quoted, I'd have to say yes, since prepared spells certainly are not equipment, but could potentially be considered an "attribute."

3. Craft Contingent Spell Feat (from Unapproachable East) allows you to create "contingency-like" magical items that do not take up any magical item slot and hang around until discharged. It mentions the base cost but does not indicate how to calculate it. Specifically, it says;

Base cost = Market price, just like all of the items in the DMG.
Pentar
06-29-04, 01:22 PM Originally posted by Beamup
I believe both would be maximized, barring language in Twin Spell to the contrary.

Thanks, that's what I figured. :)

Based on what you've quoted, I'd have to say yes, since prepared spells certainly are not equipment, but could potentially be considered an "attribute."

Here's the direct quote:

The double has the ability scores, base AC, hit points, saves and attack bonuses of its creator, but no equipment. (Any apparent clothing or equipment is nonfunctional.) Since it can use anything its creator can, the double can attack the creator's enemies if given a weapon or item with which to do so. Alternatively, it can function as the target of a Project Image spell, duplicating the creator's actions and functioning as the origin of the creator's spells when it is within his direct line of sight.

Hmm, I was using "attribute" in the sense of attribute scores - but it does not clearly state that they possess the abilities (i.e. class abilities, spell-like, supernatural, or otherwise) - only the ability scores.

It doesn't say one way or another specifically...

Base cost = Market price, just like all of the items in the DMG.

Ahh, thank you!
Beamup
06-29-04, 01:26 PM Originally posted by Pentar
Hmm, I was using "attribute" in the sense of attribute scores - but it does not clearly state that they possess the abilities (i.e. class abilities, spell-like, supernatural, or otherwise) - only the ability scores.

It doesn't say one way or another specifically...

OK, with the actual quote for reference, I now have to say "no." Since everything in the quote that the double has is a specific, clearly defined, game-mechanical term (unlike "attribute", which is not a term with defined meaning in 3.5... there are no 'attribute scores', just 'ability scores'), there is no basis for saying it can do anything other that what is specifically stated.
Pentar
06-29-04, 01:34 PM Yah, I tend to agree. It would be a little ... broken, if the Shadow Adept could double himself and instantly have a "twin" with all the same abilities and spells.

Basically, the double is a nice target that can absorb some spells/damage for the Adept and make fire off some magic missiles from a wand. :P
tarkin
06-29-04, 03:02 PM 1. Sorry, but he was wrong about the maximize. Only the original spell is maximized. The core books explain how to do when they discuss Empower + Maximize: a maximized and empowered fireball does 60 + 10d6/2, not 90 points.. The Sage has specifically said that you treat Twin, Repeat, Admixture etc. the same way you treat Empower, they create secondary spell add-ons based on the original, unmodified spell. I.E. they over-lap, not stack.

2. I believe, that I don't know the answer to this question.

3. Market price = 2x cost to make it.

P.S. The sage has gone on to say that Extend, unlike Maximize, DOES stack. If you extend a maximized Melf's Acid Arrow it does 8 points every round for as long as 14 rounds.
Pentar
06-29-04, 03:15 PM Originally posted by tarkin
1. Sorry, but he was wrong about the maximize. Only the original spell is maximized. The core books explain how to do when they discuss Empower + Maximize: a maximized and empowered fireball does 60 + 10d6/2, not 90 points.. The Sage has specifically said that you treat Twin, Repeat, Admixture etc. the same way you treat Empower, they create secondary spell add-ons based on the original, unmodified spell. I.E. they over-lap, not stack.

Ahh.. Ok. Where does The Sage put all this information? I'm a bit of a newbie to the boards, so I don't know where these rule clairifications exist. Please link it for me?

In otherwords though, using a Twin Fireball with a Maximized Rod will result in 60+10d6 damage, with a separate save for each damage effect.

3. Market price = 2x cost to make it.

Ok, so what beamup said was incorrect? That base cost does not equal market price?

I sort of thought that was wierd, since it seems to me that base cost would be what it cost the wizard (crafter) to make the item, and market cost is what they're selling it at, at mark-up in order to make profit.

So, to figure out the base cost of a Contingent item, I have to calculate the market cost first, and then divide by 2. Silly D&D writers... :)

P.S. The sage has gone on to say that Extend, unlike Maximize, DOES stack. If you extend a maximized Melf's Acid Arrow it does 8 points every round for as long as 14 rounds.

Ahh, thanks. Good to know that as well... Odd, it sort of contradicts the logic, that Extend spell is an exception to the otherwise universal rule.
Beamup
06-29-04, 03:33 PM Originally posted by Pentar
Ok, so what beamup said was incorrect? That base cost does not equal market price?

I sort of thought that was wierd, since it seems to me that base cost would be what it cost the wizard (crafter) to make the item, and market cost is what they're selling it at, at mark-up in order to make profit.

So, to figure out the base cost of a Contingent item, I have to calculate the market cost first, and then divide by 2. Silly D&D writers... :)

Nope. Tarkin and I are both correct, just saying it in different ways.

Base Price = Market Price = 2*Cost to Create

leaving aside the XP cost.

Thanks for the Maximize+Twin correction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pentar 06-29-04, 12:18 PM	Hello everyone, I have some questions I wanted to ask about several things, so I'll put them forward here for answers. :) 1. The Twin Spell feat (Player's Guide to FR), allows a caster to cast the same spell used with this metamagic feat twice at the same time for double effect. If I had a Metamagic Rod of Maximizing and casted a Twin-Spell while using the rod, would the both spell effects get maximized? e.g.: I prepare Lightning Bolt as a Twin spell (takes a 7th-level slot) and then I cast it using the Rod of Maximizing - does this mean I do 60 damage + 10d6, or 120 damage (2 reflex saves, half for each). This, of course, would apply for using it with any other metamagic rod. I'm just using Maximized as an example. 2. The Shadow Adept PrC level 10 ability is to create a Shadow Double of himself. It says the Shadow Double comes in with all the attributes, abilities and stats of the original, but none of the functioning equipment. Does this also mean prepared spells? Can the Shadow Double begin casting spells already prepared by the original Shadow Adept at the time the double was created? 3. Craft Contingent Spell Feat (from Unapproachable East) allows you to create "contingency-like" magical items that do not take up any magical item slot and hang around until discharged. It mentions the base cost but does not indicate how to calculate it. Specifically, it says; Crafting a contingent spell takes 1 day for each 1000gp in its base price. To craft a contingent spell, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing half its base price. A little later on, in the Magic and Spells chapter of the book, it mentions; The market price of a contingent spell is spell level x caster level x 100gp Does market price = base price? I don't think so, since I would believe market price is what it sells for and base price is the cost of actually doing it. I would imagine the market price has a mark-up value. So what would be the base-price of crafting a contingent spell? I looked up Contingency (which, oddly enough, is -not- a pre-requisite spell for taking this feat) and it does not make any mention to costs there either. That's it for now, although I'm sure I've got a couple of more questions. :)
Beamup 06-29-04, 12:32 PM	Originally posted by Pentar 1. The Twin Spell feat (Player's Guide to FR), allows a caster to cast the same spell used with this metamagic feat twice at the same time for double effect. If I had a Metamagic Rod of Maximizing and casted a Twin-Spell while using the rod, would the both spell effects get maximized? e.g.: I prepare Lightning Bolt as a Twin spell (takes a 7th-level slot) and then I cast it using the Rod of Maximizing - does this mean I do 60 damage + 10d6, or 120 damage (2 reflex saves, half for each). This, of course, would apply for using it with any other metamagic rod. I'm just using Maximized as an example. I believe both would be maximized, barring language in Twin Spell to the contrary. 2. The Shadow Adept PrC level 10 ability is to create a Shadow Double of himself. It says the Shadow Double comes in with all the attributes, abilities and stats of the original, but none of the functioning equipment. Does this also mean prepared spells? Can the Shadow Double begin casting spells already prepared by the original Shadow Adept at the time the double was created? Based on what you've quoted, I'd have to say yes, since prepared spells certainly are not equipment, but could potentially be considered an "attribute." 3. Craft Contingent Spell Feat (from Unapproachable East) allows you to create "contingency-like" magical items that do not take up any magical item slot and hang around until discharged. It mentions the base cost but does not indicate how to calculate it. Specifically, it says; Base cost = Market price, just like all of the items in the DMG.
Pentar 06-29-04, 01:22 PM	Originally posted by Beamup I believe both would be maximized, barring language in Twin Spell to the contrary. Thanks, that's what I figured. :) Based on what you've quoted, I'd have to say yes, since prepared spells certainly are not equipment, but could potentially be considered an "attribute." Here's the direct quote: The double has the ability scores, base AC, hit points, saves and attack bonuses of its creator, but no equipment. (Any apparent clothing or equipment is nonfunctional.) Since it can use anything its creator can, the double can attack the creator's enemies if given a weapon or item with which to do so. Alternatively, it can function as the target of a Project Image spell, duplicating the creator's actions and functioning as the origin of the creator's spells when it is within his direct line of sight. Hmm, I was using "attribute" in the sense of attribute scores - but it does not clearly state that they possess the abilities (i.e. class abilities, spell-like, supernatural, or otherwise) - only the ability scores. It doesn't say one way or another specifically... Base cost = Market price, just like all of the items in the DMG. Ahh, thank you!
Beamup 06-29-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Pentar Hmm, I was using "attribute" in the sense of attribute scores - but it does not clearly state that they possess the abilities (i.e. class abilities, spell-like, supernatural, or otherwise) - only the ability scores. It doesn't say one way or another specifically... OK, with the actual quote for reference, I now have to say "no." Since everything in the quote that the double has is a specific, clearly defined, game-mechanical term (unlike "attribute", which is not a term with defined meaning in 3.5... there are no 'attribute scores', just 'ability scores'), there is no basis for saying it can do anything other that what is specifically stated.
Pentar 06-29-04, 01:34 PM	Yah, I tend to agree. It would be a little ... broken, if the Shadow Adept could double himself and instantly have a "twin" with all the same abilities and spells. Basically, the double is a nice target that can absorb some spells/damage for the Adept and make fire off some magic missiles from a wand. :P
tarkin 06-29-04, 03:02 PM	1. Sorry, but he was wrong about the maximize. Only the original spell is maximized. The core books explain how to do when they discuss Empower + Maximize: a maximized and empowered fireball does 60 + 10d6/2, not 90 points.. The Sage has specifically said that you treat Twin, Repeat, Admixture etc. the same way you treat Empower, they create secondary spell add-ons based on the original, unmodified spell. I.E. they over-lap, not stack. 2. I believe, that I don't know the answer to this question. 3. Market price = 2x cost to make it. P.S. The sage has gone on to say that Extend, unlike Maximize, DOES stack. If you extend a maximized Melf's Acid Arrow it does 8 points every round for as long as 14 rounds.
Pentar 06-29-04, 03:15 PM	Originally posted by tarkin 1. Sorry, but he was wrong about the maximize. Only the original spell is maximized. The core books explain how to do when they discuss Empower + Maximize: a maximized and empowered fireball does 60 + 10d6/2, not 90 points.. The Sage has specifically said that you treat Twin, Repeat, Admixture etc. the same way you treat Empower, they create secondary spell add-ons based on the original, unmodified spell. I.E. they over-lap, not stack. Ahh.. Ok. Where does The Sage put all this information? I'm a bit of a newbie to the boards, so I don't know where these rule clairifications exist. Please link it for me? In otherwords though, using a Twin Fireball with a Maximized Rod will result in 60+10d6 damage, with a separate save for each damage effect. 3. Market price = 2x cost to make it. Ok, so what beamup said was incorrect? That base cost does not equal market price? I sort of thought that was wierd, since it seems to me that base cost would be what it cost the wizard (crafter) to make the item, and market cost is what they're selling it at, at mark-up in order to make profit. So, to figure out the base cost of a Contingent item, I have to calculate the market cost first, and then divide by 2. Silly D&D writers... :) P.S. The sage has gone on to say that Extend, unlike Maximize, DOES stack. If you extend a maximized Melf's Acid Arrow it does 8 points every round for as long as 14 rounds. Ahh, thanks. Good to know that as well... Odd, it sort of contradicts the logic, that Extend spell is an exception to the otherwise universal rule.
Beamup 06-29-04, 03:33 PM	Originally posted by Pentar Ok, so what beamup said was incorrect? That base cost does not equal market price? I sort of thought that was wierd, since it seems to me that base cost would be what it cost the wizard (crafter) to make the item, and market cost is what they're selling it at, at mark-up in order to make profit. So, to figure out the base cost of a Contingent item, I have to calculate the market cost first, and then divide by 2. Silly D&D writers... :) Nope. Tarkin and I are both correct, just saying it in different ways. Base Price = Market Price = 2*Cost to Create leaving aside the XP cost. Thanks for the Maximize+Twin correction.