Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pitiless_Interfector 06-12-07, 05:51 PM	Complete Mage was nice, but for those of you yearning for an in-depth look at what magic could be, look no further:
Pitiless_Interfector 06-13-07, 02:25 PM	Mordenkainen's Magical Manual (Arcanabula Magica) Magic is a form of energy that can be used to accomplish wondrous things by those with the necessary ability. Spells consist of energy patterns that are sculpted by the mind of their caster. On its own, magic is just energy, intangible and invisible. What gives it its power is the pattern of that energy. Whether they arise naturally as products of the relentless advance of time and probability, or as the work of a dynamic (though not always intelligent) entity, these patterns are what makes magic emerge from its intangible torpor to effect change in the physical world. These changes can be trivial, such as telekinetically rearranging books on a shelf, or transcendent, such as spurring the genesis of another plane of existence. This power can be yours to learn, if you choose to do so. There are many paths to arcane power. Most learn their magic from tomes such as this one, studying intricate formulae with fervent dedication. But a few are born to it. Drawing upon a font of power that comes from a hereditary attunement to the ebb and flow of magical energy, they can work magic with ease. They memorize patterns of magic that they can then sculpt with less effort due to the familiarity that comes from endless practice. At the price of versatility, they gain the ability to cast spells with greater frequency than those who learn their magic from books. Their understanding of patterns is more intuitive than intellectual, and their hereditary gift allows them to do without the intricate equations that allow the less gifted to manipulate magic. Thus, they have little to gain from the study of tomes such as these. But there are things all mages should learn about magic: Magic is difficult: Any idiot can learn to play a song, cook a dish, or even speak a language, given time, but learning to cast even the simplest of spells requires months and years of study for even the most gifted minds, and progressing to the highest levels of magical power requires an intellect and strength of will few people can ever hope to possess. The practice of magic requires the deepest commitment and the most serious mind. It is not to be undertaken lightly, and success is not guaranteed. Magic is dangerous: Accidents happen. This is a fact of life, and nowhere is it more apparent or costly as magic. The patterns that make up spells are complex to begin with, and grow exponentially more convoluted the greater their effect. Even the smallest mistake in visualization or lapse in concentration can cause the spell to fail, with nothing to show for your effort other than substantial mental fatigue. And if you are able to generate an effect anyway, you’ll probably wish you hadn’t. From embarrassment to inconvenience to injury to death, the effects of a miscast spell are almost invariably unpleasant, far more costly than any other mistakes you have made in your lifetime. And if you attempt to create an entirely new spell, the probable will become the inevitable. Magical experimentation is fraught with tales of disaster and death. And furthermore, the mere act of manipulating magic is innately damaging; the mortal mind was not designed for such levels of detailed concentration on alien ways of thought. Every time you cast a spell, successfully or not, you cause damage to your neurons proportional to the spell’s complexity. Reckless use of magic will lead to headaches, nausea, and, eventually, insanity, as the neurons in your brain begin to burn out from electrical overload. There is a preset limit to how much magical energy a mind can manipulate in one day; overuse will cause the neurons you use to visualize the patterns to burn out from fatigue. You will find yourself with a splitting headache that makes it impossible to concentrate hard enough to tie your breeches, much less cast a spell. Only a full, uninterrupted night’s sleep can refresh your mind sufficiently to regain your magical powers. Magic is powerful: The use of magic is the path to ultimate power. There is simply no better method to manipulate reality on such a massive scale. One skilled in magic can topple buildings, control the weather, or rearrange the landscape the way a child might play with blocks. Beware the skilled mage, for there is scant little in this world that can stand in his way, save those who, like him, have mastered magic. Now that those concepts have been illuminated, we will move on to the basics of magical study. These, too, are useful regardless of how you work your magic. First, find a quiet, well-lit place to study, away from other people (and flammable or fragile objects, if you are going to actually practice with magic). Distractions are a huge impediment to your studies and are likely to prevent you from accomplishing anything at all. Avoid them if you can. (Also, most people would rather not hang around while an apprentice mage is experimenting with their first spells, just in case.) Second, keep a good supply of materials on hand. These will vary depending on the specifics of your studies, and many aren’t strictly necessary, especially if you have an inborn gift for magic. The basic materials every aspiring mage should have on hand: 1. A supply of paper, quills, and ink 2. A transparent prism of crystal or mineral 3. A copy of this manuscript (or other arcanamacha) (None of these are strictly necessary if you have an innate gift with magic. But for the most part this book will be written for the benefit of the average person). Third, make sure you’ve had a good night’s sleep, or else you will be unable to concentrate. Now we will discuss the magical theory that every mage should learn. Magic itself has no form or function; it is merely an ambient energy that is present to a lesser or greater degree. Most places have a natural background of magical energy that a mage can draw from to power their spells. Certainly it is not a bottomless font of power, but rest assured that you will be exhausted long before the localized magical energy is. But some places are aberrant; magic at these locations functions differently, or not at all. There are places where there is little or no magical energy to draw upon, making spellcasting difficult, if not impossible. (Obviously not a good place to study). Conversely, there are some places where there is an excess of magical power. At such places, it is possible to accomplish more with less. These places are a boon to mages, and if you can find such a place, it would be wise to keep a note of it. Last, but not least (and possibly the most dangerous) are areas where magic itself is unpredictable. Here, random patterns that change unpredictably are already inherent in the magic; attempting to reshape the energy into a spell will likely disrupt the ambient patterns, triggering an effect quite different from what you had in mind. Sometimes the effect is a boon (in fact, it’s possible that you may be able to cast a spell without fatiguing yourself), sometimes it is inconvenient (the spell fails) or even amusing (having your spell produce a rain of rotten fruit that pelts you with spoiled cabbage, for example), but often it is downright harmful (having a deep pit appear beneath your feet). Avoid these areas if you possibly can. Magic itself is a featureless continuum, devoid of pattern or purpose; to study magic is to study the patterns by which magic is manipulated. These patterns take a bewildering array of forms, but overall, there are certain similarities that can be cataloged. It is from these similarities that mages have devised the system of schools, a way of categorizing a given spell by the overall structure of its pattern. All spells of a certain school share certain structural characteristics, and by reading and analyzing these characteristics, one can identify the school or schools of magic involved. There are 8 known schools: abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation. Each school has a certain theme or function, as befits a grouping of spells with a similar structure. Some schools can be further divided into subschools, which are groupings of spells within a school of magic that share a particular structural element. There are also themes, such as fire or darkness, which are embodied by particular mental patterns but can be found among several schools. And certain spells include elements from two schools or more, though for the most part such spells are for advanced mages with many years or decades of practice under their belt. Magical study involves feats of mental visualization that boggle the mind. And, in truth, no ordinary human could hope to learn more than a handful of spells in their entirety; without the hereditary gift that lends their brains the highly-developed structures necessary for magic, most spells are just too complex to hold in one’s mind all at once. To facilitate the study of magic, mages have developed a system of symbols and nomenclature that serve as a sort of mental shorthand for various concepts. In effect, each symbol takes on a concrete meaning akin to a word, much like certain languages in the far-off lands of Rokugan, Kara-Tur, or Kharaka. These symbols can be combined to form a string of related mental images that, when concentrated on in the proper sequence, create a spell. More complicated spells might be arranged in a diagram, with each symbol’s position relative to another denoting its order and importance in the sequence. There are countless variations on these arcane languages; in fact, each mage’s system is different. No matter how greatly they might have taken after their master, eventually their grimoire develops idiosyncrasies unique to them, and unintelligible to others without substantial effort. Of course, with the right application of magic, these writings can be deciphered like any ordinary text. Learning to read magical script is difficult; each symbol must be laboriously analyzed and linked with a particular mental exertion. No ordinary human has developed the proper brain structure to cogitate these patterns in any useful fashion. Therefore, these structures must be developed through constant experimentation and practice. It can take weeks or even months to learn a single sigil, and there are dozens of sigils that must be memorized before one can begin to develop even a rudimentary understanding of basic spellcasting practice. However, these first few dozen provide all the foundations necessary to continue on to the full breadth of arcane scripture. Most sigils include combinations of elements from different basic sigils to form a single, more complex sigil. These compound symbols typically correspond to a “middle-ground” between two or more mental patterns and see more and more use as spells increase in complexity and power. The mental effort of spellcasting can be lessened through the use of certain rituals and incantations. In effect, one is supplementing their ‘magic lobe,’ or dweomerlobe, by shifting some of the burdens of concentration and visualization onto more mundane neurological structures. A spoken incantation and ritual gestures can serve as a ‘placeholder’ for one’s concentration. The words and gestures both follow their own syntax and rules, similar to those involved in arcane script, and in fact spawned from the same root. However, if they are disrupted, your concentration (and thus, the spell) fails. Thus, practice is essential. The words and gestures of magic have both given rise to derivative languages. A good working grasp of Draconic and the sign language of the drow are tremendous aids for any student of the arcane. However, bear in mind that either or both of these components can be forgone in a pinch. Unfortunately, this places additional stress on your dweomerlobe, causing it to burn out more swiftly. Beyond words and gestures, certain props can be utilized in the process of spellcasting. Rather than serving as a ‘mental crutch,’ these items function as more of an ‘imprint,’ interacting with the budding magical pattern as it materializes, and imbuing it with similar qualities, much the way a flamingo’s plumage turns bright pink by consuming krill and shrimp and absorbing their pigmentation. Certain items are absorbed and consumed totally by the pattern, which requires their energy to manifest itself. Certain items, however, simply serve as ‘lenses,’ focusing the magic in a certain manner and imbuing it with similar properties. These items can be reused again and again, and the more expensive and finely-crafted of these items are treasures sought after by all manner of mages and wizards. Most such props are not truly necessary, but the task of realigning the pattern to do without them requires considerable practice and is thus consequently ignored by many arcanists, who usually find ways to leverage their abilities to acquire what they need. Finally, certain spells involve channeling such massive energies that they cause permanent brain damage. These spells destroy the delicate neurochemical traceries required for spellcasting, in a way no amount of rest and recuperation can heal. These connections can be reforged, but it requires that one practice magic by casting spells in new and unusual circumstances, stimulating the brain to begin knitting new neurons to replace those that were lost. While these setbacks make for a strong disincentive, in most cases the power offered by the spell is worth the sacrifice. Certain creatures possess naturally-developed dweomerlobes that enable them to work magic much like an ordinary mage. However, in general, they lack the flexibility of arcane education; their abilities take the form of naturally (or artificially) evolved brain structures that are designed to accomplish a few specific tasks. Because of this intense focus (whether a result of evolutionary pressure or magical experimentation), their dweomerlobes are conditioned for the task of utilizing a specific spell-like pattern, without the need for external crutches. Some creatures can utilize a magical ability at will, while others require time for their dweomerlobes to recuperate and recharge. However, regardless of usage constraints, their dweomerlobes are designed to handle the stress of channeling vast amounts of energy and imprinting it with the necessary qualities without experiencing permanent damage or resorting to props. Despite the degree of effort required to master them, spells form only part of a skilled mage's arsenal. Equally important are dweomered talismans; objects which interact with the background magical energy, channeling it into useful patterns. The art of constructing these items is difficult and arduous, but extremely rewarding. A mage who lacks the erudition to construct such artifice is little more than a hedge wizard. Magic items gain their power not from their materials but from their structure. Magic is a form of energy; a tenuously physical one, but physical none the less. It can be gathered, refracted, amplified, and shaped almost like light. It is interesting to note that items with an already high degree of inherent structure, such as crystals and living organisms, possess a great degree of magical potential and see frequent use in the construction of talismans such as wands and staves. Of course, few objects ever realize their arcane potential; they haven't been properly refined to the degree required to direct magic in any appreciable capacity. There are a few exceptions, including caverns and geodes filled with magically resonant crystal, but these are extraordinarily rare and usually only occur in areas where the magical energy itself is strongly concentrated and unusually mutable, such as near gateways to other worlds or the lairs of powerful mages and monsters. And, of course, there are many examples of living organisms that harness their magical ability without benefit of arcane schooling; mythical creatures such as dragons and unicorns that are nonetheless quite real, though growing steadily rarer as the common races continue to expand their dominion over the face of the world. But by and large, most potential talismans must be refined and shaped by a skilled magewright before they can hold a magical charge, or dweomer. This is where the difficult craft of artifice holds sway. The process of weaving a dweomer into an item is complex and difficult. Even the simplest of talismans require the better part of a day to complete, and the mightiest of magics may take a year or more to craft. While certain techniques can cut these times down significantly or even drastically, they can never entirely eliminate it. The construction of an item occurs in two stages: refining and attunement. Only the best materials hold enough magical potential to craft great works of artifice, and such items do not come cheap. Even the purest gemstone requires precise cutting and alchemical polishing to achieve a suitable degree of refinement for magical crafting purposes; cutting that requires a skilled hand and expensive supplies to perform. Even more daunting, however, is the task of properly attuning the materials to the magical charge, or dweomer, with which you wish to imbue the item. This process requires that you channel vast amounts of magical energy of an appropriate pattern into the item. While very similar to casting a spell, this process requires specialized knowledge and creates tremendous stresses on your mind. However, the effect is substantial: the massive infusion of magical energy permanently alters the structure of the item on a fundamental level, reshaping it to accommodate the massive surge of arcane power and wiping away the impurities that inhibited the flow of magical energy. While this process is extremely convoluted, draining, and arduous, it has considerable rewards. Magical crafts take a bewildering array of forms. One of the most common and fundamental is the spell scroll; a sheet of fine parchment that stores a single use of a specific spell in a manner that enables one skilled in spellcraft to cast it without stressing their minds. These items are essentially like a set of instructions; they contain magical sigils that instruct the mage on how to mentally trigger the dweomer latent in the scroll. Once the scroll has been triggered, the magical pattern assembles itself. Just as a seed holds all the knowledge of how to grow into a mighty oak on the bounty of earth and sky, so a single nugget of arcane power draws upon ambient magical energy to blossom into a greater pattern that then acts as any ordinary spell. The economy of scrivening is impressive; a single sheet of paper can contain all the ingredients necessary to rederive the greatest of spells. Of course, it is not a perfect system; if it were, mages would surely use it in preference to the bulky syntax of arcane grimoires. The pattern of the scroll is a very intricate one, and knowing what the sigils on the parchment describe does not tell the whole story. While it is possible to convert a scroll one encounters in their travels into a form that can be scribed into the initiate's personal spellbook, the process requires that the mage tease apart the pattern and discern its inner workings, providing the missing pieces of the puzzle that complete the pattern's bibliography. This process liberates the energy inherent in the scroll, turning it into blank parchment; like eating a peanut, it leaves nothing but an empty shell behind. Slightly more complex than scrolls are potions; alchemical concoctions that contain a magical effect that is bestowed upon the drinker. These items are advantageous in that they can be used by even the most idiotic of servants and in the efficacy of their brewing; no matter the complexity of their enchantment they can all be brewed within a single day. Rare herbs and minerals are usually incorporated in their construction; the process of attunement is rendered considerably quicker by means of various quasi-magical and alchemical techniques that provide much of the magical conductivity via the process of brewing the potion. However, there is a limit to the complexity of enchantment that can be brewed into a potion; alchemy only goes so far in the absence of magic. More complex (but far greater in utility) than either of these items is the wand; a receptacle for a particular spell that can be used over and over again dozens of times before running dry. The wand is completely self-contained, requiring only a modicum of spellcasting ability and a simple command to activate it. The wand draws on ambient magical energy to create a spell effect, using a pattern that is stored inside it during its creation. The wand's attunement to its magical dweomer is bound up within the structure of the item; each time it is used, a portion of the item's attunement decays, losing its magical powers. When the final nugget of useful matter is exhausted, the wand becomes nothing more than a stick. It can be recharged, but the process must begin anew, as the wand now holds no more attunement than any other carved wooden stick. There is, however, a variety of wand that holds inexhaustible energy; such wands, known as eternal wands, require specially tuned crystals to focus the local magical energy to a useful concentration. These wands are even more limited than normal in the complexity of enchantment they can hold, but they never run dry. A trickle of power is always running through them, and while it can only crest a handful of times before running thin, the power always returns. The staff is akin to a wand, being a repository of arcane power that can be accessed by anyone with the appropriate knowledge to produce magical effects a set number of times before it is depleted. However, staves are both larger and generally more ornate than wands, and the power they contain is not as rigidly structured or focused. Indeed, a powerful magician can wield a staff with great skill, producing a greater effect than that which was bound within the staff by its creator. And while wands store a single spell of relatively limited complexity, staves can store more than half a dozen spells of astronomical complexity simultaneously. Staves are much more difficult to construct, and there is a set minimum of magical power required to bind the dweomer in the appropriate manner. Like the wand, there are many variants on the common staff as well, the most prevalent being the runestaff, which allows a spellcaster to channel their own power into the form of a spell that they might not otherwise been able to cast a set number of times per day, rather than relying on a finite charge. However, unlike the flimsy wand, if all else fails, a stave can be used quite effectively to simply bludgeon foes into submission. Beyond these, dweomers can take a bewildering array of forms. Enchanted jewelry, swords, bows, shields, armor, tools, buildings, clothing, books, and more can all be used to store a magical charge, from a humble feather to a majestic galleon. Surprisingly, however, the basic techniques required to enchant all of these items are virtually identical. As they say, "If you've crafted one, you've crafted them all."
Red Dragon 06-15-07, 05:00 PM	Very good, but it may not apply to every world or situation. However, for generic D & D, or FR, excellent. Well done. (I can't speak for Eberron, because I don't know it).
Pitiless_Interfector 06-15-07, 07:18 PM	Very good, but it may not apply to every world or situation. However, for generic D&D or Forgotten Realms, excellent. Well done. (I can't speak for Eberron, because I don't know it). You think so? Wow, thank you! It's SO nice to actually get recognition on these boards.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-16-07, 12:13 PM	Very good, but it may not apply to every world or situation. However, for generic D & D, or FR, excellent. Well done. (I can't speak for Eberron, because I don't know it). I mentioned Kharaka, so it quasi-fits for Eberron. Of course, Kharaka isn't canon, so it still doesn't apply universally, but, well, you can't have everything.
Optimized_Commoner 06-16-07, 01:32 PM	I'm just about to head out, so I didn't have time to read it fully. However at a glance this looks great. Can't wait to get back and finish reading it. Plus it's inspired me to do something similar that's specific to the campaign world I'm working on.
Elana 06-16-07, 01:40 PM	Well, I have to say I disagree with that text :) it claims intelligence would be needed to do arcane magic. But strangely that sorcerer with int 3 can do it quite well :P (Okay, mordenkainen might have been biased towards wizards, just thought Imention it)
Optimized_Commoner 06-16-07, 02:10 PM	I've now read it in its entirety and I must say it's very good. The only thing I wouldn't use from it is the idea of the Dweomerlobe, it seems too scientific and psionic. I prefer a more mystical view. I see spells as being more like a twist and a knot in the mage's soul which holds power until the knot is 'untied' by the actions of casting a spell.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-16-07, 03:38 PM	Well, I have to say I disagree with that text. :) It claims intelligence would be needed to use arcane magic. But strangely that sorcerer with Int 3 can do it quite well. :P (Okay, Mordenkainen might have been biased towards wizards, just thought I'd mention it.) It doesn't. If you have the right heritage, your brain already has the necessary tissue structures to utilize magical energy, much like a creature with an innate dweomerlobe (AKA spell-like abilities). No intelligence required. I've now read it in its entirety and I must say it's very good. The only thing I wouldn't use from it is the idea of the Dweomerlobe, it seems too scientific and psionic. I prefer a more mystical view. I see spells as being more like a twist and a knot in the mage's soul which holds power until the knot is 'untied' by the actions of casting a spell. Dweomerlobes were mentioned in Lords of Madness, in the section on Beholder anatomy. And psionics and magic are (in the core rules) virtually interchangeable, at least from a focused Abjuration specialist's point of view (poof! your effect go by-by now! Hee....). Leonardo da Vinci had an intimate understanding of the brain and nervous system by the early Renaissance; it would be easy to imagine that a world with both magic-obsessed mages and aberrant psion technicians would have enough working knowledge of the nervous system to comprehend the idea of neurons and the dweomerlobe. Nevertheless, this text has little to do with abilities such as invocations and soulmelds. I'm working on a similar text to handle the idea of souls, but, seeing as how we still can't agree on those in real life, I'm having understandable difficulty avoiding the infamous cognitive error known to debate teams and philosophers as the "Big Prick Bias;" though the idea of the 'soul-knot' bears a remarkable similarity to my theories on the invocations of warlocks and dragonfire adepts.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-16-07, 03:57 PM	Follow the arrow to the original post. 2 characters.
ArcTan 06-19-07, 02:38 AM	I didn't want to be too critical when reading this, but it is pretty much the same as Complete Mage only wordier, and with the annoying idea that there's some physical "dwoemerlobe" in the physical brain that's responsible for making one able to cast magic, which Kills the Mystery in the same way as the Star Wars prequels and "midi-chlorians". (Did Lords of Madness actually say *everyone* had a "dwoemerlobe" who could use magic? How does that work for disembodied spirits who are mages, and such?) Also, you lose points for perpetuating the canard that there's anything really fundamentally different between an alphabetic script like the Roman alphabet and a logographic script like Chinese characters. (*Both* English words *and* Chinese characters are symbols that take on deep and direct connection to the idea they stand for thanks to repeated use in language.) Extra minus points for treating Kharaka like it actually exists as part of Eberron as opposed to being some crap a forum poster made up.
hiryuu 06-19-07, 01:15 PM	D&D doesn't have any standard, core rules for magic users going crazy, injuring themselves, or anything else to show that magic is dangerous to use. In fact, it's actually very safe, at least compared to, oh, say, fairy tales, where use of magic ends with you in an oven, your eyes pecked out, crushed unde a marble table, and so on, or in a situation way over your head, or even in more modern sotries like Full Metal Alchemist where the use of alchemy brings hubris and suffering. Every time you cast magic missile, you get a magic missile, and you're not any crazier than when you started, and there's no possible way to hurt yourself doing it. Some spells have built in things, like planar binding but that's more because outsiders are jerks than the magic itself being dangerous (though, if I were in the tub and there's a knock at the summoning circle, I might be angry, too). And for the record, put me down for not liking the dweomerlobe, also.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-20-07, 11:50 AM	D&D doesn't have any standard, core rules for magic users going crazy, injuring themselves, or anything else to show that magic is dangerous to use. In fact, it's actually very safe, at least compared to, oh, say, fairy tales, where use of magic ends with you in an oven, your eyes pecked out, crushed under a marble table, and so on, or in a situation way over your head, or even in more modern stories like Full Metal Alchemist where the use of alchemy brings hubris and suffering. Every time you cast magic missile, you get a magic missile, and you're not any crazier than when you started, and there's no possible way to hurt yourself doing it. Some spells have built in things, like planar binding but that's more because outsiders are jerks than the magic itself being dangerous (though, if I were in the tub and there's a knock at the summoning circle, I might be angry, too). And for the record, put me down for not liking the dweomerlobe, also. The "insanity" was more of a nod to the sanity mechanic in Unearthed Arcana. If you don't use that book, then the issue is moot anyway, because you run out of spell slots (from 'mental fatigue') long before you risk going crazy. The warning is meant to scare you away from trying to squeeze more spells per day out of your brain than what you're given on the table. Now, I will explain the purpose of this post so nobody else is tempted to follow in ArcTan's footsteps. This post (and others like it) is an attempt to dissect the workings of the D&D multiverse, much like scientists dissect the workings of our own. Many of you will take umbrage at my "taking the mystery" out of magic. I am not, no more than whoever assigned "levels" and "damage dice" to mystic dweomers of thought and memory. I am simply providing a look at how someone with no knowledge of "abstractions" such as XP costs or spell slots would view their obvious impact on how magic is manifested in the game. For those of you who are still not convinced, and see me as "the worst sort of 'role'-player," "more concerned about scientific deduction than having fun," I have two answers. One: I find "scientific deductions" to be quite 'fun', so they are obviously not mutually exclusive; and Two: THE D20 SYSTEM IS ABOUT TAKING THE MYSTERY OUT OF THINGS! IT IS ABOUT USING SIMPLE, UNDERSTANDABLE RULES TO APPROXIMATE THE WAY THE WORLD WORKS, WITH A FEW ALLOWANCES FOR IMAGINATION! IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISPUTE THAT, THEN YOU ARE NOT PLAYING D&D, YOU ARE PLAYING MAKE BELIEVE! Now that the unpleasantness is over, I would appreciate further comments. To get things going, I will now present my original ideas about magic, so one does not have to read the post and pick through what they “already know, from a metagamer’s perspective.” The biggie: the dweomerlobe. Most of you find the very idea reprehensible; “lobes are for psionics, not magic!” That is nonsense, and I will draw up a reasoned argument as to why that is so. First: the dweomerlobe in canon. The dweomerlobe is mentioned in Lords of Madness, the Book of Aberrations (Chapter 3, Pages 39-40) under the paragraph on the central nervous system of the beholder. It absorbs magical energy from the beholder’s eyes as it watches spell effects in action (the apparent correlation between magic and electromagnetism will be ignored for the moment as it is neither here nor there). It is clearly stated that the beholder uses its central nervous system and brain to employ its various magical eye rays (though the lenses actually perform the brunt of the task of sculpting the magic into viable patterns). “But,” you say, “that doesn’t mean humans [or anything else besides beholders, for that matter] have a dweomerlobe!” And you would be right. The average human is not born with a dweomerlobe. “But then,” you continue, “how can it use a dweomerlobe to manipulate magic if they don’t have a dweomerlobe?” Ahh, I said they weren’t born with one. Just because you’re not born with something doesn’t mean you can’t develop it. “But how does that apply to something as completely alien as a dweomerlobe? If I can't grow eyestalks by trying, then why should I be able to develop any other structures from an aberration? How do you expect me to swallow this neo-Lysenkoist, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck bullsh!t?” Oh, but the brain can adapt to virtually anything! If you were born with four arms, three legs, and two eyes on the back of your head, you would quickly learn to use them all. Just imagine what you could do with an extra pair of arms, an extra leg (look up Francesco Lentini if you want to know what that looks like), and eyes in the back of your head! Certain animals, such as birds and electric fish, can sense electromagnetic fields using biological magnetite. Humans also share this anatomical peculiarity; we have magnetite in the ethmoid bone of the nose. The reason we can’t sense electromagnetic fields is due to the ethmoid deposit withering and atrophying over generations until it became vestigial. If one were born with a functional magnetoceptor, the possibilities would be endless. You could locate electronic devices without even having to see them, even if they’re behind you or hidden inside a cabinet or a wall. You could even sense the electromagnetic fields given off by living things, much like certain species of shark. You could dodge bullets with your eyes closed! You would be almost superhuman. And the reason you could use any of those things is because your brain is plastic; it can reshape itself to perform tasks. While it is most plastic in infancy, and becomes increasingly rigid with age, it is reasonable that with sufficient practice one could reshape their brain to develop a dweomerlobe similar to (but smaller than) the beholder's. Of course, this takes a great deal of time and effort. No one has attempted brain retraining of this magnitude in real life before (the lack of any perceivable benefit in the absence of magical energy being an obvious reason), but it is at least conceivable. After all, the brain has been under evolutionary pressure for plasticity since the dawn of time; a brain that was more plastic would be able to take advantage of any random beneficial mutations (such as extra limbs or an entirely new sense organ), without the genes that control the brain having to evolve to catch up. The chances of the random mutation being accompanied by another random mutation on a different chromosome of the exact type needed to benefit the organism is vanishingly small. Thus, a plastic brain is more likely to be evolved than a rigid one. This is a truism, so if evolution by natural selection occurs at all in your world (and in the absence of continuous, universal micromanagement by manipulative deities or mad archmages, evolution is an obvious fact of life), plastic brains can be considered the norm, and thus nearly all humanoids should possess such brains. Brain plasticity can be likened to Intelligence; the higher your Int score, the more skill points you have and thus the faster you learn (which you do by forging new interneural connections and cranial folds, a task more easily accomplished by a plastic brain than a rigid one). Thus, the key attribute for wizard magic is also linked to brain plasticity; another point in favor of the dweomerlobe theory. Ahh, but what of sorcerers, you say. Surely, this is a flaw in your theory! No, it is not, for the following reasons: The sorcerer does not need a particularly plastic brain, because he has inherited some of the genes of an innately magical creature; a creature such as a dragon, which can be presumed to have evolved an innate dweomerlobe that emerges without needing to be created through practice. Even the slightest bit of genetic material can presumably lend a humanoid (or other brain) a tendency towards the specific kind of plasticity needed to form a dweomerlobe; they do not necessarily ‘inherit’ their ancestor’s dweomerlobe, but they inherit the genes that allow them to form their own dweomerlobe in an almost instinctive fashion; often without their needing to even understand what they are doing or that they are wielding magic. Of course, once they discover the truth, they can easily improve their abilities with practice, since their dweomerlobe can be trained just like any other part of the brain, including the motor cortex (juggling), the ocular cortex (the old ‘goggles of upside-down vision’ trick), the aural cortex (interpreting even the most alcohol-slurred, accent-colored mumbling as speech rather than a fortuitous stirring of the air), etcetera. Now, the tricky part: Creatures that don’t have dweomerlobes (such as ghosts and warforged). These creatures are able to manipulate magic because they themselves are magical. Ghosts are simply disembodied souls; magical energy woven so tightly that it takes on form and sentience. This is lent credence by soulmeld-magic transparency [MoI 52: Incarnum and Spells], implying that incarnum (soul-stuff) is really just another aspect of magic (hence the title Magic of Incarnum). And warforged are, to put it bluntly, intelligent magic items. They channel and store magical energy because their materials were structured in such a way as to channel magical energy. They do it differently than living things, and thus they seemingly lack a soul, but it is a good enough approximation that they can be raised and resurrected just like living creatures. Ah, but this begs the question: If souls can manipulate magic due to their being composed of magic, and humanoids have souls, then why bother to include the dweomerlobe? Because surely what works for a pseudoscientific aberration campaign need not necessarily apply to a more traditional fantasy game? And here, of course, is where it becomes an issue of playing style and taste, in which there can be no final judgment (after all, de gustibus non est disputandum). But in my opinion, the dweomerlobe is perfectly reasonable. The soul and the body are bound very tightly. The advantage of this is that the soul is protected from entropic decay; it will not degrade as swiftly as many spell effects, and is not subject to being sundered by simple abjurations such as dispel magic or unshape soulmeld (or even the infamous Mordenkainen’s disjunction or soulmeld disjunction, which can tear apart even the most permanent of dweomers and melds). The bond is very tight, so that only the most powerful of magics can sever it (i.e. the epic spell Aumvor’s soulshatter). The downside of this protection is that what affects one must surely affect the other, at least partially. It is this dual connection between the soul and the body, between mind and matter, that makes manipulating the world with the mind (be it with magic, psionics, or meldshaping, as they all, in the end, spring from the same source) possible. Finis .
Pitiless_Interfector 06-23-07, 11:59 PM	Reserved.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-24-07, 02:24 PM	Added another segment on magic item creation.
Senko 06-24-07, 04:42 PM	Three things here... 1) As I understand English is one of the hardest second languages to learn because of the sheer number of special rules and contradictions it has in it. A 30k character alphabet would be harder to learn but when 29k of those 30k are actually words and concepts in and of themselves then its much like learning words in english. 2) Dweomerlobes don't work when trying to explain spellcasting in sorcerers. Dragons and other spellcasting creatures have been disected in the past and they don't possess those things so there's no reason why there descendants should suddenly require them to do what the grandsire can without them. Dweomerlobes are a beholder specific item from what I've read. 3) Once a sorcerer learns a spell that's it they can cast it over and over again till they run out of power without forgetting it. If sorcerer's and wizards are essentially the same thing then surely it would be posible for wizards to do the same thing i.e. learn fireball once to the point where you don't need to memorize it each time you want to cast. EDIT And why on earth would Mordekeinan know about neurons and the like?
Salla 06-24-07, 05:00 PM	which Kills the Mystery in the same way as the Star Wars prequels and "midi-chlorians". I know I'm in the minority, but I rather LIKED the fact that they actually tried to explain the Force in scientific terms rather than pseudomystical gobbledygook. The reason that we, in the real world, think of magic as mystical or romantic or mysterious is because it doesn't exist. As I said, in a world where magic exists, magic would be studied and every effort would be taken to take the mystery out of it, just as people studied lightning in the real world. Just as you don't look at electricity as anything more than a tool, nor should a D&D character look at magic as anything other than a tool.
Senko 06-24-07, 05:29 PM	Actually I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a modern world like ours your probably right that they'd try to quantify and measure magic (Your child has 17.4 Kilothaums of magical power I suggest you look into the magic classes available as they'll need to learn to control it when they enter puberty). In a DnD world (at least going by the books I've read) they tend to view it as more of an artform with magic being a personal thing. That is Person 1's spells may feel cold and dark while person 2's are green and growing. Where person 1 works by controlling the magical flows and forcing them into the shape desired while person 2 gently coaxes them to flow into the shape desired. Add in the fact that medieval wizards tend to try and horde their magical knowledge and it probably wouldn't really be studied scientifically in the standard DnD world.
Salla 06-24-07, 05:34 PM	Actually I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a modern world like ours your probably right that they'd try to quantify and measure magic (Your child has 17.4 Kilothaums of magical power I suggest you look into the magic classes available as they'll need to learn to control it when they enter puberty). In a DnD world (at least going by the books I've read) they tend to view it as more of an artform with magic being a personal thing. That is Person 1's spells may feel cold and dark while person 2's are green and growing. Where person 1 works by controlling the magical flows and forcing them into the shape desired while person 2 gently coaxes them to flow into the shape desired. Add in the fact that medieval wizards tend to try and horde their magical knowledge and it probably wouldn't really be studied scientifically in the standard DnD world. Which books are these? I've never read anything of the sort in any rulebook regarding any of those issues.
Senko 06-24-07, 05:38 PM	Not rulebook, book book as in the novels even DnD mages tend to treat magic as more of an artform than a science.
Salla 06-24-07, 05:41 PM	Not rulebook, book book as in the novels even DnD mages tend to treat magic as more of an artform than a science. Novels schmovels. I really don't care about the novels and discount them completely. If it doesn't say it in the rulebooks, it don't count.
Senko 06-24-07, 05:48 PM	Oookkaaayyyyyyyy.
xXOblivionXx 06-24-07, 07:25 PM	Actually I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In a modern world like ours your probably right that they'd try to quantify and measure magic (Your child has 17.4 Kilothaums of magical power I suggest you look into the magic classes available as they'll need to learn to control it when they enter puberty). In a DnD world (at least going by the books I've read) they tend to view it as more of an artform with magic being a personal thing. That is Person 1's spells may feel cold and dark while person 2's are green and growing. Where person 1 works by controlling the magical flows and forcing them into the shape desired while person 2 gently coaxes them to flow into the shape desired. Add in the fact that medieval wizards tend to try and horde their magical knowledge and it probably wouldn't really be studied scientifically in the standard DnD world. Salla is right, novels are what a person thinks of something and not what it truly is. While in a novel magic might function as you describe it, in another it might function completely different. Anyway, I like it , it explains in a very good way the workings of magic. But why a dweomerlobe? in Lords of Madness, only the Beholder has it while all the other creatures that their anatomy is described do not have it, even if they have spell like abilities
Senko 06-24-07, 08:07 PM	Well I can always dig up the descriptions of magic in the rule books if you like what few there are. I'll only be using the core books here because not everyone has the same splat books and they can introduce a wide range of variances such as gem magic, time magic, star magic, geomancy, environmental effects, racial effects, power words (not power word kill but actual words of power from a first language with 1 for each level and able to duplicate any spell of that level but with a mind of its own) etc etc and some non DnD like Arcana evolved specifically state that magic changes slightly depending on the user. The problem here is that most modern DnD books (not sure about 1st/2nd ed) are simply providing rules to run the thing and leaving description up to the GM. From the introduction in the players handbook chapter on magic ", she meditates on the pages that describe each one. The arcane symbols, which she has penned by hand, would be nonsense to anyone else, but they unlock power from her mind." The rest describes the mechanics of spell use so lets look at what it has to say on arcane magical writings as that seems applicable. "The notation constitutes a universal arcane language that wizards have discovered, not invented. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However each character uses the system in her own way." Seems to show all wizards use magical writings at least in a manner unique to them even when using the same original language although admitedly there is some research here its not necessarily universal or commonly shared. A little later on "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spells level x 50 gp, though many wizards jelously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them alltogether." Not exactly an environment for research although friendly mages trade equal level spells. From the DMG section on introducing magic to your world "Just because magic works and most people are aware of it doesn't mean they know exactly how it works or when it's in effect." Talking about superstitions and common people here not mages but still indicates that the majority of people don't know that much about magic. All in all magic seems to be very personal and hoarded, high level mages don't get together and chat about their spells assembling a scientific premise that outlines the exact workings of magic for all. I'm not saying you can't play a mage like that if you want who know's maybe one day future generations will read Salla and Oblivion's magical theories that laid the groundwork for the current understanding of magic. However what little flavour text there is in the books indicates to me at least that most mages aren't that interested in sharing and expanding the universal knowledge of magic so much as their own personal power and that even in the area's where there are universal constants (the discovered arcane writings) they aren't perceived in the same manner and indeed may only apply to wizards and not sorcerers or bards. Remember this is effectively middle ages style worlds (normally) and the more widely diseminated your works the more likely some opponent to your goals is going to use them to stop or destroy you. As for the novels I feel that the officially released novels describing the adventures of characters in this world (possibly characters and adventures someone played although I'm not sure of that) are a good place to look for how they are thematically set up. If 90% of the wizard of the coast books describe magic as slightly different for each user then maybe that's how they see it as being and they just left that out of the rulebook so you can set up your own world as you like. Afterall I could make the point that all the splatbooks are just how certain people see things take players handbook 2 which introduces different magic systems such as a mana pool. Or Forgotten realms books which describe a weave and a shadow weave with slightly different rules for each. I do agree with you on the dweomerlobe as I indicated before I think that's beholder specific and not a universal thing.
xXOblivionXx 06-24-07, 08:34 PM	Well I can always dig up the descriptions of magic in the rule books if you like what few there are.... The only think I can say is that I do not see why wizards would not share spell
Senko 06-24-07, 09:27 PM	Because its dangerous even if your allied to someone now that might change in the future if your interests come into conflict. In that case having them know what your capable of means they'll have an easier time defeating you. This varies a little depending on the game but in most DnD worlds there are usually evil mages bent on world domination. Sure they might not be able to defeat you and you certainly wouldn't give them your spells but if you teach all your apprentices/friends what you know they don't have to defeat you to find your secrets just infiltrate or eliminate one of the others who know it. The wider you spread your knowledge the easier it is for those opposed to you to get ahold of it. Even in the modern world companies can be very protective of their secrets as it allows them greater control of the market area their interested in. I know if I was a mage in the DnD world (regardless of level) I'd be reluctant to just hand out my spells. Even when it comes to trading for an equal level I'd need to trust the person invovled both to ensure it wont be used against me and to ensure I get a working spell. Even then someone might be dragged into a fight against you because of other commitments external to your relationship. Such as if they're a member of an order who are expanding their lands and are eventually going to try and take what you own. Or just a random lich who learnt your signature spells by controlling someone to apprentice to you and then steal your books/items. EDIT To take a random example say you were a powerful mage and someone you'd never met came up to you asking you to teach them how to raise or sink continents (a spell you researched for many, many years to develop a working version sinking thousands upon thousands of platinum pieces, experience and time into) would you just teach them?
xXOblivionXx 06-24-07, 10:07 PM	Because its dangerous even if your allied to someone now that might change in the future if your interests come into conflict. In that case having them know what your capable of means they'll have an easier time defeating you. This varies a little depending on the game but in most DnD worlds there are usually evil mages bent on world domination. Sure they might not be able to defeat you and you certainly wouldn't give them your spells but if you teach all your apprentices/friends what you know they don't have to defeat you to find your secrets just infiltrate or eliminate one of the others who know it. The wider you spread your knowledge the easier it is for those opposed to you to get ahold of it. Even in the modern world companies can be very protective of their secrets as it allows them greater control of the market area their interested in. I know if I was a mage in the DnD world (regardless of level) I'd be reluctant to just hand out my spells. Even when it comes to trading for an equal level I'd need to trust the person invovled both to ensure it wont be used against me and to ensure I get a working spell. Even then someone might be dragged into a fight against you because of other commitments external to your relationship. Such as if they're a member of an order who are expanding their lands and are eventually going to try and take what you own. Or just a random lich who learnt your signature spells by controlling someone to apprentice to you and then steal your books/items. EDIT To take a random example say you were a powerful mage and someone you'd never met came up to you asking you to teach them how to raise or sink continents (a spell you researched for many, many years to develop a working version sinking thousands upon thousands of platinum pieces, experience and time into) would you just teach them? I wouldn't probably teach it to them, except if they paid me an amount of PP that, from the description of the spell, not even a dragon could afford. But I do not see why I should not teach my apprentice other spells or other people that would pay for them or other wizards of my guild
Senko 06-24-07, 10:19 PM	And if your apprentice was always nice and sweet and helpful around you but everyone else who knew them described them as a vindictive bastard only out for what they could get? How about if all your current crop seemed fine but you'd had at least 1 previous apprentice who after completing their training became evil and had killed people you cared about in their attempts to make you suffer for some reason? What if someone who could pay for that Polymorph any object planned to use it to transform other members of their thieves guild into animals so they could smuggle things into and/or out of cities? How about if they wanted summon creature X so they could unleash a swarm of low level critters on random villiages for protection money or dominate to make that uppity person who'd always turned them down have sex with them? How about if there were members of your guild who kept asking for spells but never gave you any "Because you know I'm not good at research but I really need to know how to give glass the strength of steel." Although I have to admit a guild would be more likely to share spells how about with another guild who's views are directly opposite to yours in several important areas? The spell I gave is actually in the epic book and could be used by someone opposed to your country to sink parts/all of it and if multiple opposing groups banded together they probably could buy it.
Everdreaming 06-25-07, 12:26 AM	What about bards? They can use magic, but dont study years and years to do it, and also would not have used magic if they did not follow the bardic career, so how do they fit in? To clarify. Bards do not study magic soley, yet can still use it. Bards do not have innate dweomerlobes, becuase if that same person had decided to become a fighter, rather than a bard, he would not cast spells. So how do they fit in with your theories?
ArcTan 06-25-07, 05:01 AM	I know I'm in the minority, but I rather LIKED the fact that they actually tried to explain the Force in scientific terms rather than pseudomystical gobbledygook. The reason that we, in the real world, think of magic as mystical or romantic or mysterious is because it doesn't exist. As I said, in a world where magic exists, magic would be studied and every effort would be taken to take the mystery out of it, just as people studied lightning in the real world. Just as you don't look at electricity as anything more than a tool, nor should a D&D character look at magic as anything other than a tool. You can describe the Force in "scientific terms" without making it be generated by little swimmy things that live in your blood, which is an outright *contradiction* of claims that the Force transcends physical reality and is generated by life itself. There's a difference between making something more "scientific" in the sense that it follows predictable, repeatable rules and making it more "scientific" in the sense that you make up some hokey explanation for it that you think makes it more like something that could "really happen".
Soltares 06-25-07, 11:49 AM	An interesting read. It's not in line with my own thoughts on the subject, but it is well-presented, and certainly would make for a viable set of guidelines, particularly as presented in-character. (i.e. the Wizard writing it might feel that this is how it works, but he may or may not actually be correct, just as early physicians may not have quite hit the mark with theories involving sanguine / choleric / phlegmatic / etc. humors.) Given it's length, I wasn't actually going to read it until I scrolled down and saw ArcTan attacking it, and you personally, as is his wont. I've found that anyone ArcTan heaps derision upon generally has some ideas I might find interesting, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of your conclusions. His ire is my litmus test. :) That being said, I imagine he and I are in agreement about the whole midichlorian thing. I'd like to hop down to Skywalker Ranch and shake George Lucas by the collar, saying, 'What the hell were you thinking, man?'
xXOblivionXx 06-25-07, 12:30 PM	1.And if your apprentice was always nice and sweet and helpful around you but everyone else who knew them described them as a vindictive bastard only out for what they could get? How about if all your current crop seemed fine but you'd had at least 1 previous apprentice who after completing their training became evil and had killed people you cared about in their attempts to make you suffer for some reason? 2.What if someone who could pay for that Polymorph any object planned to use it to transform other members of their thieves guild into animals so they could smuggle things into and/or out of cities? How about if they wanted summon creature X so they could unleash a swarm of low level critters on random villiages for protection money or dominate to make that uppity person who'd always turned them down have sex with them? 3.How about if there were members of your guild who kept asking for spells but never gave you any "Because you know I'm not good at research but I really need to know how to give glass the strength of steel." Although I have to admit a guild would be more likely to share spells how about with another guild who's views are directly opposite to yours in several important areas? 4.The spell I gave is actually in the epic book and could be used by someone opposed to your country to sink parts/all of it and if multiple opposing groups banded together they probably could buy it. 1.I don't know. Probably trap his soul and then sell it to fiends:) 2.Honestly, I don't care 3.If the one asking wasn't a friend I would not give him the spell without something in exchange (a spell of equal power probably) and if they where of another guild who's views where directly opposite to ours in several important areas I would not give them of my spells 4.By that level I would be a lich and have moved to the negative energy plane or have created my own nation of the undead
ArcTan 06-25-07, 05:29 PM	An interesting read. It's not in line with my own thoughts on the subject, but it is well-presented, and certainly would make for a viable set of guidelines, particularly as presented in-character. (i.e. the Wizard writing it might feel that this is how it works, but he may or may not actually be correct, just as early physicians may not have quite hit the mark with theories involving sanguine / choleric / phlegmatic / etc. humors.) Given it's length, I wasn't actually going to read it until I scrolled down and saw ArcTan attacking it, and you personally, as is his wont. I've found that anyone ArcTan heaps derision upon generally has some ideas I might find interesting, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of your conclusions. His ire is my litmus test. :) Where the hell did I heap derision on him personally? I said I didn't like the ideas very much, and was annoyed that he referenced things that I didn't think deserved to be referenced. That's different.
Pitiless_Interfector 06-26-07, 07:04 PM	Three things here... 1) As I understand English is one of the hardest second languages to learn because of the sheer number of special rules and contradictions it has in it. A 30k character alphabet would be harder to learn but when 29k of those 30k are actually words and concepts in and of themselves then its much like learning words in english. 2) Dweomerlobes don't work when trying to explain spellcasting in sorcerers. Dragons and other spellcasting creatures have been disected in the past and they don't possess those things so there's no reason why there descendants should suddenly require them to do what the grandsire can without them. Dweomerlobes are a beholder specific item from what I've read. 3) Once a sorcerer learns a spell that's it they can cast it over and over again till they run out of power without forgetting it. If sorcerer's and wizards are essentially the same thing then surely it would be possible for wizards to do the same thing i.e. learn fireball once to the point where you don't need to memorize it each time you want to cast. EDIT And why on earth would Mordekeinan know about neurons and the like? 1. And look how long it takes to learn words in English! The mere existence of high school and college vocabulary and games such as Scrabble prove that there is ALWAYS something new to learn about english. 2. How do you know they don't possess those things? Nobody other than psions and aberration specialists give a damn about how a creature's brain works; they're too busy discussing things like bones and hearts and stomachs, which are infinitely more useful from a hack writer's point of view. The fact that they only call it a dweomerlobe in beholders doesn't mean the same structure couldn't have been mislabeled; if it were small enough the connection between it and the beholder's might never have been made (since even great wyrm gold dragons can't use disintegrate and finger of death at will). 3. It's called Spontaneous Spell (an epic feat). EDIT He has Int 27 and lives in a world full of psions and fleshwarpers. He's one greater plane shift spell away from Ilkkool Rrem, the mind flayer planar metropolis. It would be insulting his intelligence for him to not know how the brain works. Salla is right, novels are what a person thinks of something and not what it truly is. While in a novel magic might function as you describe it, in another it might function completely different. Anyway, I like it , it explains in a very good way the workings of magic. But why a dweomerlobe? in Lords of Madness, only the Beholder has it while all the other creatures that their anatomy is described do not have it, even if they have spell like abilities Again, the connection might not have been made, because the structure and size of the dweomerlobe can vary from one creature to another. The male and female versions of dinosaurs such as parasaurolophus were mistaken for different species for decades, due to the males possessing vastly different skull structures from the females (blowhorns and such).
Pitiless_Interfector 06-26-07, 07:29 PM	What about bards? They are the liberal arts majors of the D&D world. They "major in unemployment" by studying a wide range of subjects, therefore learning to suck at everything. They can use magic, but don't study years and years to do it, Yes, they do. Every class requires years of study to master [gaining x4 skill points for your level] and also would not have used magic if they did not follow the bardic career, They don't use it anyway. (Snicker) so how do they fit in? Poorly To clarify. THANK you. Bards do not study magic solely, yet can still use it. Nobody 'solely' studies magic. Even a 20th level wizard has learned enough about fighting to hit your average commoner with a staff twice per round 95% of the time. Bards do not have innate dweomerlobes, Neither do wizards. They have to grow them. because if that same person had decided to become a fighter, rather than a bard, he would not cast spells. How is that different from becoming a fighter instead of a wizard? A guy with Combat Expertise could have made a fine wizard, able to cast fireball and get a bonus spell slot. Anybody who decides not to learn magic does not get a dweomerlobe. Even sorcerers who decide to become pure fighter don't have a dweomerlobe, because they merely inherited an ability to develop a dweomerlobe more easily than a wizard, instead of directly inheriting a dweomerlobe. So how do they fit in with your theories? Bards suck. Their magic is weird as hell. They are physically incapable of casting spells without making some kind of noise, unlike normal casters, who simply make noise to help them cast spells more efficiently.
xXOblivionXx 06-26-07, 08:13 PM	Again, the connection might not have been made, because the structure and size of the dweomerlobe can vary from one creature to another. The male and female versions of dinosaurs such parasaurolophus were mistaken for different species for decades, due to the males possessing vastly different skull structures from the females (blowhorns and such). I have heard about parasaurolophus, dinosaurs are very interesting:) Anyway, your explanation seems very reasonable (works for me)
Auorix 06-26-07, 08:16 PM	Loved it, subscribed and will be looking for future posts from Pitiless_Interfector.
Senko 06-30-07, 06:37 AM	Oh don't get me wrong I fully agree this is a very creative work and I'm thoroughly impressed I'm just offering my comments on the areas that sound wrong to me. If it makes you feel better I can write up my disagreements as scholarly argument presented by Khelban Blackstaff in refutation of certain claims by Mordekainen. That said I'll now address myself to the reply's I didn't get notified about. 1 to Oblivion: Now your not sharing spells freely which was my point, no matter how generous you are there's almost always a point where you say no. 2. With regard to Dweomerlobes: I'm not even going to bother discussing this with you any more. Your quite right about most DnD books not going into detail on those subjects and since I don't have the lords of madness (or whatever its called) one I can't actually look at what it say's on beholders and other aberations and I make it a point not to try and debate subjects I can't research beyond a certain point (my previous arguments being that point, consider yourself victorious if you wish, however said lobes will remain beholder only in my campaigns). Although I will point out they may have misidentified the function of that particular lobe by your argument. I will also post the following from the 1st ed monsters manual simply because I found it highly amusing "i.e. a beholder with 45 hit points can withstand 30 points of damage to its body before dying." 3) With regards to Modekeinan knowing about Neurons: I recently had a friend mention in one book a couple of those high powered wizards (I think one was Elminster) met to discuss things on neutral ground, said ground being a coffee shop in London, Earth so I suppose he could have a medical degree lurking in his closet after all.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-30-07, 02:37 PM	Just a note on Dweomerlobes: Whether someone's magic is based on CHA or INT just means they developed one on the other side (creative/intuitive vs logical). Note on Bards: just use a dweomerlobe on the creative/intuitive side and learned to focus it through music instead of geometry/symbols/etc. Basically, I think it was well written and like one person said before, just because Mordenkainen said it was so, doesn't mean it is correct. It's what he believes to be true, and is a very good presentation from him. Good work, Pitiless Interfector.
WizO_Cat 07-20-07, 11:21 PM	Ok, let's keep the posts to the topic of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, it is considered baiting which is against the Code of Conduct, and in the future disciplinary actions will follow. Fair warning.
strange_person 08-11-07, 04:03 PM	What about bards? They can use magic, but dont study years and years to do it, and also would not have used magic if they did not follow the bardic career, so how do they fit in? To clarify. Bards do not study magic soley, yet can still use it. Bards do not have innate dweomerlobes, becuase if that same person had decided to become a fighter, rather than a bard, he would not cast spells. So how do they fit in with your theories? Bards study magic encoded in songs.
Pitiless_Interfector 08-22-07, 12:38 AM	Ok, let's keep the posts to the topic of the thread, not other guests. Otherwise, it is considered baiting which is against the Code of Conduct, and in the future disciplinary actions will follow. Fair warning. Fair warning? Hah! THIS is a fair warning: http://www.abc.net.au/schoolstv/animals/img/ground/swombatdig.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEWARE! Never climb down into wombat burrows. They are unstable and full of poisonous animals such as snakes and spiders. Wild dogs use the tunnels as hiding places and wombats themselves are dangerous animals when cornered--easily able to crush intruders against the roof of their homes. ---from The Secret Life of Wombats, by James Woodford. (c) 2001 James Woodford. Printed by the Text Publishing Company LTD, Melbourne, Australia Consider yourselves warned.
ArcTan 08-22-07, 01:18 AM	Gratuitously bumping your own thread after over a week is bad form.-
BaseDeltaZero 08-22-07, 09:09 AM	:D :D I love doing this... I've got an elaborate write up about my own campaign setting, which works a little differently, but it's great to see someone asking the Most Important Question of All (that'd be 'Why?', not 'How much damage does it do?') I could post my writings if you wanted, but in the meantime, I'll ask... what about divine casters. PS. To the person who said it was too scientific & 'Psionic'... what the hell? Psionics is not scientific, it is the very oppositie of scientific. It ignores the Laws of Thermodynamics (You know, you can't get something from nothing), as psions are supposed to conjure effects equivalent to a wizard's channeling of Mana (an outside energy source) with the millijoule of electricity in their brain. Besides, spellcasters are using the 'power of their minds' to control the energy flow, a far more reasonable proposal. In conclusion, psionics should die.
Pitiless_Interfector 08-22-07, 12:08 PM	Gratuitously bumping your own thread after over a week is bad form.- But bumping it every 48 hours is less obnoxious? Need I remind you that this is the first time in almost 2 months that I have been able to get at a computer? I have the sneaking suspicion that you are abusing the "find all posts by this user" command (AKA the Stalker Button).
Yadot 08-22-07, 09:51 PM	But bumping it every 48 hours is less obnoxious? Need I remind you that this is the first time in almost 2 months that I have been able to get at a computer? I have the sneaking suspicion that you are abusing the "find all posts by this user" command (AKA the Stalker Button). And I think you're taking this way to personally. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism. It's like feeding fuel to a fire to make it burn brighter. As for the work itself, it presents a more coherent, in-game look at magic than Complete Mage, but delves into pseudoscience a bit to much. Fantasy and science just don't mix. http://www.telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/angrywizard.jpg
Pitiless_Interfector 08-24-07, 01:03 AM	And I think you're taking this way to personally. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism. It's like feeding fuel to a fire to make it burn brighter. As for the work itself, it presents a more coherent, in-game look at magic, but delves into pseudoscience a bit too much. Fantasy and science just don't mix. http://www.telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/angrywizard.jpg What in the NINE HELLS is that? It's the funniest thing I've seen in a long, long time.
NorthWind 08-24-07, 09:44 PM	Alright, to respond to many things: a.) I read the first post, and liked it. I didn't agree with it at all - I have a much different approach to magical theory in my games, but it was well written. You did a fine job at what you set out to do, namely, rewrite the rules on magic from a character's perspective. I will be quite plain about the dweomerlobe: I hate it, personally. I'd prefer to keep magic being romanticized and...well, magical, not scientific. But these are all personal aesthetics. Which brings me to... b.) It's all flavor and description, so if you don't like the way it sounds, post why...but does one need to be so caustic? Again, it's just someone's take on magic, it's not as though you need to assault it. c.) a'course, like Yadot said, criticism is a good thing in many cases. If someone complains about your creation, there's no real need to rebuff them point for point, as though you need to defend your thoughts. Nor should you try to discourage people from posting their dissent. Accept that they just don't like the concepts, (I know I don't) and go on. Discuss reasons if you like. But there's no need to force the issue. All in all, even though I don't like the flavor, it was well put together and it's easy to see that a lot of effort went into that post.
Yadot 08-24-07, 11:48 PM	What in the NINE HELLS is that? It's the funniest thing I've seen in a long, long time. I believe it's a module for AD&D 1ed. In it somehow Eliminster winds up in the real world and I think you have quest for something to bring him back. Plus I just love the frothy beer.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-01-07, 05:29 PM	It's been awhile now, and I decided to have another go at it. What follows is the translation of an ancient Draconic text, written by the elven archmage Torasceine Culessa many millennia ago. It was one of the first attempts at a magical omnibus, written in Draconic (the universal language of magic) and geared towards those with little or no prior experience with magic. Though concise, brief, and to the point, the work shows the remarkable thoroughness and attention to detail common to gray elven literature. The work is remarkably integrated, with theory and practice woven together into a seamless whole. The work was so exemplary that it became one of the standard textbooks for beginning mages at all major arcane academies. Sorcerers, warmages, dread necromancers, and even hexblades and spellthieves can all benefit from the book [though not as much as a prospective wizard]. Its success has spawned numerous translations, imitations, and adaptations, though the peculiar qualities of High Draconic raise the original text head and shoulders over its competitors. The Book of Magic (Turasjir Arcanix) Magic is the world. It is the beauty of the sunset, the majesty of a waterfall, the brilliance of tree leaves in autumn. Magic is the breath of life. Now, breathe deeply, and let me teach you to sing. Over the years, master wizards have developed a basic curriculum for use with the text. The first stage in the education of most apprentice wizards is learning Draconic, beginning with subject-verb agreement, sentence structure, conjugating the tenses, and declining the nouns, before moving on to the subjunctive and the passive periphrastic, followed by irregular verbs, and finally the Dracomentis, the mental dialogue of multiplicities of meaning that lend Draconic so well to describing the mental acrobatics of arcane spellcasting. The more ambitious among them also learn Elven and study Elven literature, to give them a better handle on Elven magical writings, which include some of the most profound works on magical theory ever written. Those interested in alchemy or engineering must also become passably fluent in Dwarven and Gnome so they may read some of the best treatises on these subjects. Classes in the sign language of the drow are occasionally available for those looking for every possible edge in their magical education, and truly circumspect academies will even offer instruction in Truespeech for their most promising students (usually meaning those who would have gotten a scholarship anyway if their parents weren't already extremely wealthy and well-connected). Their training begins with a basic introduction to magical theory (something akin to the arcanabula magica, only without the physiognomy of the arcane brain). However, they are not yet mentally capable of spellcasting, so the professors must work to expand their minds. Studying Draconic helps, but additional work is needed. It begins with giving them an arithmetic problem, then immediately launching into a two-minute lecture. At the end of the lecture, the professor immediately asks the students the answer to the math problem. Then he asks them to summarize his lecture. No quill or parchment is allowed; it must all be done mentally. The mathematics and lectures grow longer and more complex as the year goes on, until eventually every student can be given a system of twelve trinomial inequalities with eight variables, then lectured to for an hour, then be asked to immediately give the values for all eight variables and summarize the lecture in a minute or less. Similar mental gymnastics that they must practice in their free time include attempting to visualize something as all-black and all-white simultaneously (not as gray) and playing boardless chess games with each other while translating passages in Draconic (which looks like several children hunched over leatherbound tomes, scribbling madly away, while barraging each other with "Pawn to E5." "Knight to D6." "Bishop to A3," etc.) Also required is an eidetic memory. To help develop this, the professors will ask their students for the exact words of a statement said a minute or two ago. The time lag between the words and the forced recall are gradually increased until students can recall the exact phrasing and intonation of a passing remark on the weather the professor made five months ago. They also study the history of arcane magic (which most of the bimental lectures consist of), from the dragon kings to the first elven wizards to the archmagi of the early human kingdoms to the development of the first independent arcane guilds. The history of arcane magic itself is also covered simultaneously, as the development of new magical techniques often dictated the rise and fall of wizard-kings and sorcerer-priests. Individual assignments on the biography of a historical figure or the significance of a magical innovation round out the history lessons. The lectures eventually move from Common to Draconic, and the professor can use the intonation and multilayered meanings of Draconic to give each individual student different assignments and instructions with the same words that are giving the lecture. During this period, they spend what little free time isn't given to studying or practicing Draconic performing odd jobs for the senior wizards. The youngest apprentices perform dull work, such as cataloging the books in the library, sweeping the halls and chambers clean of dust and debris, and carrying messages, packages, and other odds and ends. When they have completed their history lessons, they move on to more practical pursuits. Every apprentice is required to master [or at the very least, become quite proficient in] a craft or trade, including metalworking, bowyering and carpentry, masonry and gemcutting, paper and textiles, or alchemy. The vast majority choose to study alchemy, learning to concoct corrosive and pyrotechnic substances along with more utilitarian items such as sunrods or auran hoods. Also taught in alchemy are basic skills in collecting and preparing material components and arcane foci (in more necromancy-focused schools, poisonmaking is also taught with alchemy, and engineering classes often teach the nuances of trapsmithing). Those with the patience for a highly-advanced class that doesn't involve incendiaries frequently study anatomy and surgical procedures or architecture and engineering. When they have acquired enough discipline through practical study (and become as fluent in Draconic as in Common), they finally move on to basic spellcraft with their introduction to the Turasjir Arcanix. Their first task is to study arcane runes, learning to hold an entire line of characters in their mind simultaneously, concentrating on their meanings individually and in the significance of their interrelationship on the page. It is here where the value of their boardless chess tournaments becomes apparent, as the runes progress from short lines to simple patterns to intricate diagrams spanning several pages. It is these exercises that open up a wizard's mind enough for him to have room to prepare and store spells. However, this degree of mental elasticity requires focus and concentration to initiate and maintain. Reading and comprehending pages upon pages of arcane runes takes anywhere from fifteen minutes to eight hours, and without putting in the necessary mental effort, the runes are as incomprehensible to them as anyone else at first glance. It is impossible to read runes 'by accident.' Of course, this is a problem for wizards, who may need to decipher runes in a hurry. It was for this purpose that the spell read magic was developed, and wizards spend much of their first year of spellcasting attempting to embed the entirety of this spell in their memory. Again, without the benefit of their professor's mind games, no human would have a chance of memorizing the entire spell. Spells that are memorized are planted deep within the recesses of the wizard's mind, which has been compartmentalized like the hull of a ship to help protect his personality, which would otherwise be drowned out by arcane susurrations, snuffing out his humanity like a candle in a hurricane. Different wizarding schools take different approaches to this compartmentalizing. Many [especially in good or lawful communities] teach wizards how to completely segregate the personality they were born with from the alien thought patterns they learn in school. Others merely teach a wizard how to wall off the parts of their minds that manipulate spells from the rest of their brain. Such wizards can at times seem creepy or inhuman, as they can split their full attention between a dozen or more trains of thought simultaneously and record everything they see, hear, touch, taste, smell, think, or feel and recall it with perfect accuracy decades or even centuries (remember, elves are wizards too) later. [Sound an awful lot like a living computer, don't they?] While greater magical power can be obtained by weakening the barriers between compartments, most wizards choose to wall off their abilities until needed [the walls can be breached in the time it takes for an electron to jump between two cells, so there is no sense worrying about being prepared]. An effect of this compartmentalizing is an unnatural resistance to mental intrusions. Their multiplicative minds are difficult to control, as pieces of their mind slip away just as others snag, like water in a sieve. The compartmentalizing usually results in relegating the most difficult tasks of spellcasting to the unconscious mind. [In effect, wizardry is almost like "brain hacking."] There are two stages of spell memory, short-term and long-term. Short-term spell memories form faster but decay more quickly. In fact, after only a couple of uses [usually only once, in fact], a given memory will fade away until it is renewed by reviewing a spellbook. Long-term memory is more complex. Memories take longer to form but remain there for good. A spell in long-term memory can be used without recourse to a spellbook. While nearly every wizard has read magic in long term memory, it takes time and practice to add more spells. But enough about that. Back to the training regimen. The runic training is followed by arcane scrivening, where they learn how to scribe spellbook pages and arcane scrolls. Then, once they have mastered bookkeeping, they move on to verbal and somatic components. The process of learning to use verbal and somatic components takes time, as they form something of a key that unlocks and shapes the inner spellpower. After memorizing read magic, wizards then move on to other cantrips. Most wizards at this point discover an affinity for one particular school, while having difficulty with others. This is the point where they choose a school of specialization. Coming soon: A "Day in the Life" that shows how much better Harry Potter could have been if J.K. Rowling hadn't had to worry about straining the suspension of disbelief; plus write-ups on specialist training in various schools of magic.
xXOblivionXx 09-02-07, 12:03 AM	I love you soooooooooooooooo much:bow: (well, I don't love you with the literal meaning of the word but you understand what I mean).
Dex 09-02-07, 08:29 AM	I have to say that is an interesting perspective on magic, Pitiless_Interfector. Like many others here there are parts that I don't agree with or have different interpretations of, for example, I have a much more elemental vision of magic (i.e. magic composed of different mixes of different elements), and I can hardly blame someone from thinking differently about something that doesn't exist. For those that didn't like it, think of it like this: Mordenkainen wrote this. As in, one Mordenkainen from one possible alternate of an infinity of planes. Different gods, different spells, different magic systems. He wrote what he saw in his world, and that may have absolutely nothing to do with how magic works in any others.
ManTimeForgot 09-02-07, 08:43 AM	Pseudo-scientific explanations for warping the laws of physics will always pale in comparison to pseudo-mystical explanations exactly because the former is trying to explain BS via reason whereas the latter is trying to explain BS with BS. Case in point: there is no conceivable reason for the force to work in space if there aren't any "midichlorians" to reach out and "activate" to create energy with. Ergo midichlorians fails to explain how Vader can choke somebody on another starship with no linking chain of causality. Dweomerlobes suffers from the same problems as midichlorians there are just too many exceptions to accept this as a logical grounding. And with no campaign basis to support such an explanation things like the "tapestry" and "mystic energy fields" are always going to come across as more palatable. If you want a pseudo-scientific explanation for magic in your roleplaying world (forget D&D or starwars), then you are going to have to build it from the ground up so to speak. Your metaphysics will have to specifically tailored to allow for such things. EX: In real life if someone could somehow directly manipulate strings (assuming string theory is correct), then they could produce a whole multitude of effects which we might in common parlance refer to as magic. A pseudo-scientific explanation for this might be "This person happens to be a hyper-dimensional being whose native faculties allow his race to interact with strings directly." High fantasy and pseudo-science just aren't made for each other anyway. Sci-fi and Steampunk (gaslamp) fantasy maybe, but not knights and shining armor. For what its worth I do respect the effort to try and create an all encompassing theory of magic and ground it in reason, but I honestly don't think D&D is the right place to do that in. MTF
strange_person 09-02-07, 10:43 AM	Dweomerlobes suffers from the same problems as midichlorians there are just too many exceptions to accept this as a logical grounding. Nope; magical streams of energy, unlike microorganisms, don't have to travel through normal space
Pitiless_Interfector 09-02-07, 01:53 PM	Nope; magical streams of energy, unlike microorganisms, don't have to travel through normal space Guys, guys, guys.... Guys. Guys! GUYS! Guuuys... ...guys? At any rate, midichlorians are mitochondria that can pluck energy from the Force instead of wringing it from the lard in your ass. Almost everything the Force does can be explained as electromagnetism. Sensing people without seeing them? Sharks do it all the time; they sense the electric fields created by muscle contractions and the nervous system itself. Moving objects? Magnetically align them and then move them via shifting magnetic fields. Supernatural reflexes? Just speed up the conduction rate of your nervous system. Shooting lightning from your fingers? It's not really all that different from an electric eel. In fact, it's entirely possible that within the next 50 years geneticists will use recombinant DNA from electrophoretic fish such as eels and catfish to create a human Jedi. But let's not change the subject. Back to BS.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-02-07, 02:11 PM	I love you soooooooooooooooo much:bow: (well, I don't love you with the literal meaning of the word but you understand what I mean). Ummm... What? Why? When? Who? How? Whoa.
strange_person 09-02-07, 02:36 PM	Guys, guys, guys.... Guys. Guys! GUYS! Guuuys... ...guys? At any rate, midichlorians are mitochondria that can pluck energy from the Force instead of wringing it from the lard in your ass. Almost everything the Force does can be explained as electromagnetism. Sensing people without seeing them? Sharks do it all the time; they sense the electric fields created by muscle contractions and the nervous system itself. Moving objects? Magnetically align them and then move them via shifting magnetic fields. Supernatural reflexes? Just speed up the conduction rate of your nervous system. Shooting lightning from your fingers? It's not really all that different from an electric eel. In fact, it's entirely possible that within the next 50 years geneticists will use recombinant DNA from electrophoretic fish such as eels and catfish to create a human Jedi. But let's not change the subject. Back to BS. Interesting agrument, but how do you explain strangling someone over the holographic equivalent of a telephone, without scrambling the signal?
ManTimeForgot 09-02-07, 08:55 PM	Nope; magical streams of energy, unlike microorganisms, don't have to travel through normal space I wasn't suggesting that they had the same logical problems. They do indeed have different problems. The problems for dweomerlobes rest in inhuman races, undead, and incorporeal beings with capability of magic casting. This shouldn't be possible if there is a fundamentally biological reason for casting. If one were to try and come up with a "reason" for magic casting in D&D, then I would start by looking at what the D&D cosmos looks like. Just what is an "element" in D&D? I'm not sure how many people really give credence to the elemental system in D&D, even though most recognize it as something akin to medieval alchemy. Everything in D&D is composed of the 4 basic elements (air, earth, fire, and water) in varying combinations; with the presence of negative energy and positive energy determining life and death status and light versus darkness; and finally cosmic alignment/functionality (how a "thing" relates to the cosmos) is determined by the presences of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. If I were to try and "justify" D&D magic rationally I would probably start with a being or capability of directly manipulating elemental properties (possibly through planar strings or elements being receptive to thoughts and desires of "cosmically aware" beings). If magic were a capability rather than an inherent trait of dimensional beings, then it stands to reason that that knowledge could be taught or be encoded in one's soul or spirit. This is still BS, but its much more consistent with the D&D cosmos than any kind of genetic or pseudo-scientific answer. Remember D&D physics and real-world physics are not the same even if the outputs are comparable. MTF
strange_person 09-02-07, 09:17 PM	I wasn't suggesting that they had the same logical problems. They do indeed have different problems. The problems for dweomerlobes rest in inhuman races, undead, and incorporeal beings with capability of magic casting. This shouldn't be possible if there is a fundamentally biological reason for casting. Undead are made of people parts. If there is a Dweomerlobe in a human's brain, and that human is turned into a vampire, does the Dweomerlobe suddenly atrophy or something? Incorporeal creatures don't have Dweomerlobes because they don't need them. They manipulate magic by being made of magic. Inhuman races… well, the Beholder is an inhuman race. Need I say more?
xXOblivionXx 09-02-07, 10:38 PM	Ummm... What? Why? When? Who? How? Whoa. I love you in the same way I love Tolkien or the people that made KH. Although there are some things I don't agree with you, I always wanted to see something like this, so there. Undead are made of people parts. If there is a Dweomerlobe in a human's brain, and that human is turned into a vampire, does the Dweomerlobe suddenly atrophy or something? Incorporeal creatures don't have Dweomerlobes because they don't need them. They manipulate magic by being made of magic. Inhuman races… well, the Beholder is an inhuman race. Need I say more? Undead don't make sense because many of them tend to have a rotten brain or none at all. Incorporeal creatures seem logical. Inhuman races include intelligent creatures without a brain, like treants or elementals.
strange_person 09-03-07, 12:32 AM	Regardless of it's subjective state of decay, the undead creature's brain is apparently still capable of it's original function. If it's not, and some magical force or structure has replaced it, then that magical structure or force can also take over the job of manipulating other magical forces. Elementals are even more made of magic than incorporeal creatures are. If plants have the capacity for movement and thought, they probably have internal structures analagous to nerves and brain, and thus a structure analagous to a Dweomerlobe. If they're normal plants with some kind of magical animating force, then they fit under elementals.
ManTimeForgot 09-03-07, 02:11 AM	Saying that something can cast magic "because they are creatures made of magic" is inconsistent with the theory that dweomerlobes are responsible for all magic in the universe. Beyond this hitting a Treant with blight (which rots it) doesn't ever diminish its ability to cast. Chopping off the top half of an undead's head, doesn't decrease it's mental stats (... :( the logician cries for D&D) and therefore won't effect its' casting abilities. The existence of the Dweomerlobe is wholly inconsistent with the elemental theory of substantiation, and possesses at best a dubious connection with the mental states necessary for casting in druids, clerics, bards, sorcerors, paladins, rangers, and wizards. The Dweomerlobe needs to be able to explain differences in mental ability requirements for the different classes, and so this as far as I can see necessitates different kinds of Dweomerlobes (or mutations). And this has no basis in D&D. Mutations exist in Sci-Fi and maybe "Cyberpunk", "Steampunk"/Gaslamp fantasy, but not High Fantasy. Exposure to "Solar Rays" doesn't do diddle spit in D&D because light is not radiation in D&D; its positive energy, maybe a little law/good (explains why vampires bite it), and it might have elements of fire and air associated with them. The Dweomerlobe might be something to implement in a campaign where psionics are the only form of supernatural occurrence, and this world takes on the form of some other kind of fantasy (it is no longer high fantasy). Seriously how many high fantasy novels (witches, warlocks, wizards, knights, priests, kings, damsels in distress, etc) have magic that is bound up in parts of their brains? It is far more remniscent of the comic/show the Shadow (definitely reminds me of watching the movie the Shadow with Alec Baldwin, where at the end the guy is missing a "part of his brain that humans don't ever use; unless you believe in telepathy..." MTF
Auorix 09-07-07, 06:13 PM	I am glad I subscribed to this thread. I have done so to very few threads, and each time Pitiless_Interfector adds a new segment it makes the wait well worth it. Cant wait to see the next installment. Dont listen to the nay-sayers and people shooting it down...they might not agree, but in the end it is still top notch creative and immensly detailed. Love how you went into the beginings...how those "normal" young students are morphed by their instructors to be able to even begin to understand the building blocks of learning magic. My god are you actually just creating this stuff? This has got to be luck and good eye piecing together of many many different bits and pieces about magical theory found all over. Would really like to know the answer to that question. As a frequent player of the vancian arcane caster types I must say these fill many gaps that I HAVENT EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT! Ok, enough blowing sunshine up yer arse. Good job.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-08-07, 05:50 PM	There is a nipple on page 76 of Complete Arcane. The following spells were developed to aid in the teaching of young wizards: Arcane Renewal, Least Universal Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One arcane spellcaster Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You speak the words and make the gestures, and you transfer your magical power into the target, whose eyes flash blue for the briefest instant before returning to normal. You allow the target to regain a single 0-level arcane spell or spell slot of their choice, as if they had activated a memento magica or pearl of power. This ability only affects arcane spells; it has no effect on divine spells, shadow magic mysteries, psionic powers, maneuvers, spell-like abilities, or artificer infusions. Arcane Renewal, Lesser Level: Sor/Wiz 2 As least arcane renewal, but enables the target to recall up to two 0-level arcane spells or spell slots or one 1st-level spell or spell slot. Arcane Renewal Level: Sor/Wiz 3 As lesser arcane renewal, but the target regains up to four 0-level arcane spells or spell slots, two 1st-level arcane spells or spell slots, or one 2nd-level arcane spell or spell slot. Arcane Renewal, Greater Level: Sor/Wiz 4 As arcane renewal, but the target can regain up to four cantrips as well as up to two 1st-level spells or spell slots and one 2nd-level spell or slot. Arcane Renewal, Superior Level: Sor/Wiz 5 As greater arcane renewal, but the target regains all arcane spells or spell slots of 2nd level or lower. Arcane Renewal, Mass Least Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Targets: Up to 1 arcane spellcaster/level, no two of which may be more than 30 feet apart. As least arcane renewal, except as noted above. Arcane Renewal, Mass Lesser Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Targets: One arcane spellcaster/level, no two of which may be more than 30 feet apart. As lesser arcane renewal, except as noted above. Arcane Renewal, Mass Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Targets: One arcane spellcaster/level, no two fo which may be more than 30 feet apart. As arcane renewal, except as noted above Arcane Renewal, Mass Greater Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Targets: One arcane spellcaster/level, no two of which may be more than 30 feet apart. As greater arcane renewal, except as noted above Arcane Renewal, Mass Superior Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Targets: One arcane spellcaster/level, no two of which may be more than 30 feet apart. As superior arcane renewal, except as noted above. Arcanamatrix Price: n/a (eldritch machine) Caster Level: 20th Aura: Overwhelming universal (DC 25) A massive edifice of crystal and cast iron, the device fills the entire central half of the massive chamber, towering to the ceiling far above. The quartz crystals, ranging in size from fingernail-sized to larger than a man, shimmer with prismatic light, and runic patterns covering the machine from head to foot dance with pulsing magical power. Metal pipes radiate from it at fixed intervals, conducting the eldritch energy throughout the complex. An arcanamatrix is one of the most powerful magical artifacts crafted by mortal hands. The device is dweomered with earth-shaking theurgy, and only a handful exist throughout the planes. These devices take decades to construct, even for dozens of skilled artificers working together, and they usually form the heart of wizarding academies and arcane guildhalls. The only arcanamatrix known to be currently in use is located in the bowels of the Kaddastrei Royal Academy for the Eldritch Arts, having been constructed by the first wizard-king of Kaddas, back when it had been a mighty empire spanning the length and breadth of a world. The Kaddastrei Arcanamatrix functions in many ways like the Spellpool of the Arcane Order, though far larger and more complex. (In fact, teachers and staff at the Royal Academy advance in a prestige class mechanically identical to the Mage of the Arcane Order) A character with a properly-attuned focus (consisting of a quartz gemstone that glows with prismatic light when it conducts spell energy) is considered to be "connected" to the arcanamatrix. Characters connected to the arcanamatrix can cast Cooperative spells and participate in circle magic without having to be adjacent to one another [or possess the Tattoo Focus feat]. A character connected to the arcanamatrix can also channel spell energy into an eldritch node without having to be within the area of the node itself. Characters skilled in Spellcraft and physically present in the matrix chamber can use the device to power more profound feats of arcane magic. The area within 100 feet of the arcanamatrix is a wild magic zone. However, a character with an attuned focus who casts an arcane spell of a level equal to or less than his Mage of the Royal Academy level -1 while within 100 feet of the arcanamatrix can draw magical energy from the device to substitute for a costly material, focus, or XP component, provided he makes a Spellcraft check (DC 15, 10, or 25 + twice the spell's level, respectively; they must check for each type of component omitted). They can also attempt to spontaneously modify a spell with a metamagic feat, as if by an appropriate greater metamagic rod, with another Spellcraft check (DC 20 + twice the effective level the spell would be if the feat had been applied normally). Eldritch nodes are magically-charged crystals that collect and discharge magical energy to produce a desired effect. They range from two to eight feet wide and four to sixteen feet tall, and cost approximately 10,000 gp. They are immobile, weighing from two to five tons, with hardness 6 and 1,500 hp. An energy transformation field centered on the node can be cast without the material components, and energy can be channeled into it remotely through the arcanamatrix. The crystal is a focus, and can be reused (or even house multiple fields simultaneously). The XP cost still applies, however.
strange_person 09-08-07, 10:12 PM	Replacing an XP cost with a spellcraft check (and a pretty easy one, at that)? Not okay. Other than that, interesting stuff.
xXOblivionXx 09-09-07, 01:35 AM	I would like to thank you for doing all those things, they are very useful and well written.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-09-07, 03:53 PM	Cael Tempest swept his gaze over the sunlit hill. A sea of brilliant emerald rippled in the breeze before him, stretching to the horizon. Resting calmly in the shade of an ancient linden tree, he picked absentmindedly at the grass beneath him, letting the green blades be carried away by the wind as he turned the problems and pressures of his new life over and over in his mind. He had never once dreamed he would even meet a wizard, let alone become one, but all that had changed, three years ago, on the first Friday after his twelfth birthday. A grim-faced, dark-skinned man had shown up on their doorstep, apparently having materialized out of thin air. His appearance had been unsettling--in more ways than one. Clad in robes that were half tan, half imperial violet and wearing an asymmetrical purple skullcap crowned with a jagged lightning bolt and a curving sickle that peeked up over the top of his head like bizarre metal rabbit ears, the pouches and pockets hanging from his belt and the leather strap over his right shoulder had seemed gravid with mystery. His leonine beard had grayed as if from age, but the neatly-trimmed mustache and the tightly-braided hair dangling from beneath his skullcap in tentacle-like dreadlocks festooned with beads were the shining black color of a stallion's mane. His thick lips were pursed in a faint grimace, and the bridge of his broad nose sported spectacles, with one lens a perfect circle, and the other in the shape of a square. The spectacles seemed to perch on the bridge of his nose without the aid of straps, almost as if they had been glued there. The man had told him he would be attending the Kaddastrei Institute for the Eldritch Arts, one of the finest academies of wizardry in Kaddas. King Rumeius IV himself had once studied there, and its location in the heart of the Empire's capital city had lent it to produce more than its fair share of royal wizards. Thrilled to escape his abusive master (who, Cael later discovered, had sold him to the wizard in exchange for ten gold coins), Cael had journeyed from his meager lodgings in Sutulak to the grand avenues and plazas of Kaddastrei. The man who had brought him there, he later learned, was Professor Drapar, the academy's custos arcanorum and professor of advanced magical theory, applied metamagical studies, and high arcana. Cael had not spoken to him since his arrival. The classes had been difficult, the studies demanding. The rewards, however, were immeasurable. The excitement he had felt, when he first caused a simple rock to glow like a torch, had stayed with him ever since that day in Professor Salavert's class, when he had cast his first evocation. After a few minutes, Cael decided he wouldn't be having any stunning insights that night, realized he had dawdled enough, and decided it was time to go. He lay down on the soft soil, savoring the feel of the suns rays on his sallow skin. Then he opened his eyes. His quarters were sparse; The walls and floor were hewn stone, the door was simple oak with an iron ring for a handle, and the only window was positioned too high up on the wall for Cael to look through comfortably without standing on his chair. Apart from it and the cot on which he reclined, the only furnishings in the room were a wooden chest of drawers (filled with tunics, trousers, robes, and socks, all made of cheap cloth), a small bookshelf (home to scrivening supplies, parchment, and textbooks arranged haphazardly at various heights), and a simple wooden desk set against the wall opposite his cot (on which lay the previous night's homework, fully deciphered and ready for preparation). Cael slid out of bed and ambled over to the worktable. He sank down into the wooden chair. Fidgeting in the vain hope of finding a comfortable position, he leaned forward over his spellbook. Then, with one last fidget, he began to prepare the day's spells. His birth eyes swept over the lines of arcane coda, gracefully tracing every last line and arc connecting and framing the symbols on the parchment. The true wizardry, however, occurred in a part of his mind that few men alive could comprehend. The sense is not sight, but 'see' is the closest word Common has for it. Of course, in Draconic, the word is hazror. In his hazrox, Cael warped and folded the pattern of thought for which his years of long training had given him a canvas. Lines and arcs of magical energy twined and knotted together, forming a tapestry of thought that thrummed with power. After an hour of deep concentration, Cael closed the book. Feeling like he once had when waking from a dream, back when there had still been a difference between dreams and reality, he dressed hurriedly and marched out the door to his first class. Due to the potential for catastrophic structural damage (not to mention the distractions that the bursts of brilliant energy would cause indoors), evocation was taught in the courtyard. When Cael arrived, he sidled over to stand beside Jarn, his former bunkmate and close friend, as the professor began to speak. "Now, as you are all well-versed in the basics of evocation, I believe it is time to move on to more advanced and interesting magic. Today, we will begin practicing elementary combat spells." A ripple of excitement swept through the assembled students as the significance of the announcement sank in. "Now, I will be absolutely clear on this: any student proven to have used offensive magic against an unauthorized target will be expelled. Are we clear on this?" There was a general murmur of agreement. "I still can't hear you!" Salavert responded irritably. "YES, PROFESSOR SALAVERT!" the class cried in unison. The professor, oblivious to the simmering resentment stirred up by his childish methods, gave a satisfied smile before continuing. "You will pair off and take turns attempting to cast the spell I assigned you yesterday. Remember, you must use a shielding spell. Is anyone not taking abjuration?" He glanced around, saw no one raise their hand, and continued. "Well, that settles it. Be sure your partner has a functioning shield active before trying to cast the spell." Cael and Jarn paired off, picking a quiet, shady spot in the corner of the courtyard where they could practice undisturbed. "So," Jarn began, "do you want to go first? My shield spells are very good, according to Professor Gorell." Cael inclined his head, and watched as Jarn spoke a brief incantation, paired with a short, circular gesture. Nothing visible happened. Cael furrowed his brow. "Are you su-" he started, but stopped abruptly when Jarn picked up a loose cobblestone and hurled it straight at Cael. It barely went half-a-yard before colliding with an invisible object, bouncing off with a dull thump and clattering unceremoniously to the ground. "Oh," said Cael, suppressing a twinge of jealousy. Try as he might, his shield spells always seemed to create ripples in the air, like glass in water. Professor Gorell would alway chastise him for this, saying that if he were going to cast a defensive spell he should either make it completely undetectable to enhance the element of surprise, or loud and flashy, to intimidate opponents. 'A barely-visible shield not only fails to intimidate, but it tells your opponent exactly what kind of defense you are employing, allowing him to pick you apart with facile ease.' Cael deeply resented his having had to look up 'facile' in the library after class. Even though no one but him knew, it was still a blow to his pride to rifle through the dictionary simply to comprehend the meaning of an admonitory remark from an annoyed professor. "Ready?" he said, a grin alighting upon his face like sunshine on a rainy day. Jarn nodded, grinning just as broadly. After taking a moment to calm himself, Cael launched into the incantation he had memorized the previous night, simultaneously going through the proscribed motions to refine and focus his power. Meanwhile, another part of his brain was simultaneously unbinding the magical potential he had locked away in his mind earlier that morning. With a crack like a gnome hand-cannon, a foot-long bolt of brilliant blue energy burst from his index finger, shooting through the air with an unearthly, high-pitched whine. With a hissing, sizzling, snapping bang, it impacted Jarn's invisible shield, washing over it like a raindrop on a flagstone and outlining the perfect, convex oval of the shield itself. Cael whooped with joy, while several of the other students glared over at the pair with envy. "Excellent!" cried Salavert, his voice magically magnified to resound throughout the vast courtyard. He flickered into nothingness and reappeared beside them an instant later. "See these men?" he cried, twisting around to address the other apprentices. "They will be great wizards, mark my words! Never have I seen such a magnificent missile produced on a first attempt! And this defensive shield is magnificent! If I hadn't seen it a moment ago, I wouldn't know it was there!" Cael moaned inwardly. The glares of the other students were so hot it felt like they were scorching his face. To his horror, he realized he was blushing, which caused his face to redden still further. Salavert raised his hand, and Cael felt the magical pattern reassemble itself inside his mind. "Again!" barked Salavert, beaming with pride. Cael took a deep breath. Eyes shut tightly in concentration, he gesticulated wildly and gabbled out the incantation. He opened his eyes just as the missile emerged. It went wild, arcing up and to the left. It burst in midair, accompanied by a tinny squawk. Something small toppled out of the air and hit the ground with a pathetic little thimp! The other students howled with laughter, and Salavert's grin turned into a barely-disguised grimace. "Find out what that was and bring it to me, please," he said stiffly, all warmth gone. Rather than point out that Salavert could have summoned it hence with a word and a flick of his hand, Cael dutifully trotted over to where the creature had fallen. When he saw it, his stomach flip-flopped. There, lying on the grass a few feet from the edge of the pavement, was a black, smoking heap of fur that could have fit in Cael's palm. It was unmistakeably a dead fruit bat. But no ordinary fruit bat would be out at midmorning. With a horrible sinking feeling, the truth of what he'd done slowly dawned on him. He'd just killed someone's familiar. Finis Parti Uni Arcane education begins to kick into high gear with divination. These initial explorations into spellcasting again focus on the art of elementary Spellcraft and magical theory, so students don’t actually experience a real sense of accomplishment until they begin to study prestidigitation. However, their early divination practice helps expose them to a broad spectrum of magic, as the professors demonstrate simple spells from a wide variety of schools. The students must identify the school of magic of each spell as well as its strength. This is accomplished via detect magic and Spellcraft. After the lesson, the professor gives them spells in written form and tasks them with identifying their general properties (a task that requires read magic) before class the next day. Both detect magic and read magic are in the third chapter of the Turasjir Arcanix. For major tests, the students must enter class and decipher ten page’s worth of spells in an hour without recourse to their workbooks. The only way to score high enough on the tests to pass is to memorize read magic so thoroughly that they can prepare it (with 15 minute’s concentration, sans spellbook), cast it, read the ten pages of spells in ten minutes, and answer the questions during the remaining half-hour or so. When students have passed the divination tests with flying colors, they move on to basic prestidigitation. Though they are no longer specifically tested on detect magic or read magic, these spells are necessary to succeed in their studies and so are practiced continually. Basic prestidigitation includes all the various effects described for the prestidigitation spell, as well as developing their own personal rune, as described for arcane mark. They pass basic prestidigitation when they complete the prestidigitation exam, which consists of conjuring a small pebble from nowhere and lifting it into the air without touching it, turning a dust-covered white dishrag into a brilliant green, unsoiled washcloth, making a flask of pure water taste like the professor’s favorite dish, playing the professor’s favorite tune without an instrument, creating a marble-sized ball of glowing light for every color of the rainbow, and finally scribing their personal arcane rune invisibly on a sheet of vellum. All future tests must be signed with your personal rune . [I]Prestidigitation is used to help with cleaning duty, which not even the older apprentices escape. At this point, many students choose to specialize in one school of magic, and/or in a certain field of magical practice. They have already mastered their mundane skills (Concentration from the mind games, Knowledge [history, arcana, archiecture and engineering] from the lectures, Decipher Script from the scrivening classes, Craft and Profession from the practical apprenticeships, Spellcraft from the magical theory, etc.] as well as memorized read magic, become fluent in Draconic, learned how to scribe scrolls and keep spellbooks, etc. Most wizard schools require students to attend 1-hour classes for each of the 8 schools of magic. Students who apply for specialist training trade in two or three of their ordinary classes for an extended 2-to-3-hour class on their chosen field. 8 hours are reserved for sleeping, and the remaining third of the day is personal time. However, this personal time is almost entirely devoted to studying, as each of the wizard’s 6-8 classes assigns homework. They will be assigned to study a spell from their course textbook (which they have attuned themselves to, as stated in Complete Arcane pg 140), prepare it, and then cast it in class the next day. To help students meet the demanding spellcasting requirements, students are supplied with a bevy of wondrous items, including pearls of power and amulets of spell conversion. Needless to say, these items are kept heavily guarded, and are only let out of the classroom to students receiving personal tutoring from one of the department heads. Stealing these items results almost invariably in expulsion, which is accompanied by erasing the student’s spellbook and placing a mark of justice (most schools have at least one faculty member with levels in archivist, allowing him to use divine scrolls freely) on them that is triggered by casting an arcane spell. Students who specialize in a school take extended classes in their specialty and are excused from one or two other subjects. Specialist classes assign spellwork more frequently, and eventually a budding specialist learns the ins and outs of a given school’s energy patterns well enough to store more of them in his mind at once than an ordinary wizard. However, specialists are more born than made; a wizard who was born with an affinity for evocation and struggles with enchantment and illusion generally discovers his stumbling block in his first few months or so and drops out of his weakest subjects. While almost all wizarding academies allow for specialization in any school, generally they themselves specialize in one or two schools (usually those of the headmaster’s specialization). Some academies offer even more intensive training for specialists of these schools, offering students with a real affinity for a school to truly pour all their efforts into it. These wizards eschew even more of the spectrum of wizardry to truly focus on a single school, to the point at which they are not only illiterate in more schools than an ordinary specialist, but they perform more poorly than unspecialized wizards in any school other than their chosen major. However, suggest to such a wizard that they are intellectually short-changing themselves, and they will be quick to remind you that their skills are frequently in more demand than those of other wizards, since sellspells are typically hired only once for a specific assignment and those with the greatest proficiency in the task at hand generally get the job in preference to those who are more versatile but less adept at fulfilling the client’s needs. The afterschool period not taken up by preassigned homework is usually given over to private study. Students are expected to show the initiative to research and develop peripheral skills. These skills take a wide variety of forms. Some students drill constantly, learning to memorize spells without need for a spellbook. Others focus on a particular school, learning to make their spells from that school more difficult to resist. Some learn to cast spells without relying on material components. Almost every wizard learns to summon a familiar during this period, though some choose instead to study the interactions of the heavenly bodies and magic, or gain an even more profound grasp on their chosen specialty. Abjuration study typically begins with simple wards. The first spell they typically master is alarm, followed by hold portal. [Occasionally, students will learn to bring down wards via dispel ward, but this is rare.] Though some schools (particularly those run by wizivist theurges) follow these with protection from evil, most move on directly to shield. In schools located far from civilization or in extreme climates, endure elements is a required part of the curriculum, but academies located in or near cities and in temperate climates typically eschew it [though it’d be a poor academy indeed that didn’t have the spell in its library]. Conjuration begins with the acid splash spell. When that has been mastered, they move on to grease and obscuring mist. When the student has mastered conjuring substances out of thin air, they move on to more complex conjuring with the unseen servant spell. Finally, their studies kick into high gear with the summon monster I spell. Though mage armor is rarely taught in school [due to its primary purpose as a long-lasting defense against mundane attack], nearly every wizard who intends to use his magic to make his name as an adventurer adds it to his spellbook before heading into danger. Divination students focus largely on auras. Detect magic and read magic having already been covered, the remaining entry-level divinations have little use in academic Spellcraft. Detect poison, detect secret doors, detect undead, and true strike are all unsuitable for academic study, and identify requires 100 gp worth of materials every time it is cast. Little is done in class, and thus many wizards disparage diviners as having specialized in unemployment. Still, many students [even those in other specialties] learn not to scorn divination, as the school contains many spells (such as spontaneous search, scholar’s touch, and comprehend languages) that considerably simplify the task of arcane study. Enchantment studies begin with the daze spell, then move on to hypnotism, sleep, and finally charm person. Enchanters practice their spells on volunteers in class and willing friends after school. Students of enchantment are closely monitored, as the spells taught to prospective enchanters can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Bone devils, ghaele eladrins, and djinn patrol invisibly, while astral devas, leonals, and night hags walk among them in disguise, all conjured by the professors to be on patrol for troublemakers inside and out. Most charms are ferreted out by such creatures, which become intimately familiar with the student body (without its knowledge) and are alert to any sudden and suspicious change in attitude. Evocation is one of the most popular specialties for wizards (followed closely by illusion and transmutation). The first evocation most wizards ever cast is light. While a simple and uncomplicated spell, it still manages to give students a thrill of amazement when they cause an ordinary pebble to glow like a torch. From here, wizards progress to the dancing lights spell. Where light turns an ordinary object into a heatless torch, dancing lights creates four balls of light that zoom about at phenomenal speed, or a glowing, human-shaped apparition that flits about with the swiftness of a hummingbird. At this point, students usually can’t wait to learn more, and the professors indulge them with magic missile. The abjuration students usually begin practicing shield spells at the same time, so they pair off, with the evokers pelting the abjuration students with magic missiles and the abjurers blocking them with shield spells. After magic missile come the ever-popular burning hands and luminous gaze. (Honestly, what teenager wouldn’t be excited about learning to make their eyes glow like searchlights or shoot fire out of their open palms?). Advanced evocation students progress to ray of flame, sonic blast, shocking grasp, ice dagger, Tenser's floating disk, and persistent blade. Illusion studies begin with ghost sound. Typically, auditory illusions are easier to produce, since visualizing sounds is less complicated than visualizing images. However, wizarding mental training permits them to visualize anything so clearly it almost seems like a lucid dream. From here, it’s simply a matter of mastering a short spell (silent image) before they begin making the image come to life. Disguise self is rarely taught in class, as it frequently proves distracting and becomes an unwanted temptation to make trouble. Polymorphed astral devas must frequently ask students and staff to identify themselves, using their discern lies power to determine if the being is lying or not. If it is, the deva follows up with dispel magic. Necromancy is frequently perceived in a negative fashion by students and commoners alike. Most schools focus on the power of necromancy to arrest decay, destroy undead and stop fights before they start via fear effects. Thus, the first spell taught to them is preserve organ, followed by disrupt undead, touch of fatigue, cause fear and ray of enfeeblement. More evil-tolerant schools delve into the sinister aspects of necromancy (which often ousts evocation as the top specialty among students). Such schools progress from ray of enfeeblement to chill touch, spirit worm, death’s call, and reaving aura. Transmutation is one of the most popular schools of specialization in most wizard academies, as the spells taught to transmuters have a deep impact on a wide variety of economic activities. They start out with mending, then progress to stick, launch item, open/close, mage hand, amanuensis, erase, greater mage hand, animate rope, feather fall, jump, expeditious retreat, reduce person, enlarge person, and magic weapon. Most wizards graduate in their late teens. The requirements for graduation vary, depending on both the school's policy and the individual wizard's magical education. In predominately human schools, students must display adequate mastery of their skills, spells, and feats. Usually, they must successfully cast one spell from each school that they have studied (and two or even three from their speciality), succeed on a DC 20 check with each skill they have purchased ranks in, and demonstrated their feats in action, such as by casting spells without material components or preparing them sans spellbook. Upon graduation, a handful of students will move out, returning to their parent's home (or wherever they lived prior to enrollment) for a time before moving out in search of either a career or a life of adventure. However, most students stay on. Many academies are sponsored by wizards guilds. Students who graduate are offered a position within the guild. They perform jobs assigned by their superiors, turning over a portion of their earnings to the guild in exchange for access to guild facilities and services, including free room and board, libraries of arcane lore, magical workshops and alchemical laboratories, and the fellowship of other wizards, including their friends from basic spellcraft.
xXOblivionXx 09-10-07, 04:29 AM	Someone is going to be very angry for that familiar...
Pitiless_Interfector 09-10-07, 05:06 PM	Someone is going to be very angry for that familiar... True. But a single magic missile could only deal 5 points of damage. That 5 points had to have knocked the familiar unconscious, causing it to fall (which is what actually killed it). So the master can't have had more than 10 hp, and probably less than 6. So, chances are good it was actually the familiar of another student. And since girls think bats are icky, it was probably a boy.
Auorix 09-10-07, 06:39 PM	*Later that night, a teenage boy cries in his room for his poor bat familiar and is now in the hole exp wise* lol
Pitiless_Interfector 09-10-07, 06:52 PM	Saying that something can cast magic "because they are creatures made of magic" is inconsistent with the theory that dweomerlobes are responsible for all magic in the universe. Beyond this hitting a Treant with blight (which rots it) doesn't ever diminish its ability to cast. Chopping off the top half of an undead's head, doesn't decrease it's mental stats (... :( the logician cries for D&D) and therefore won't effect its casting abilities. The existence of the Dweomerlobe is wholly inconsistent with the elemental theory of substantiation, and possesses at best a dubious connection with the mental states necessary for casting in druids, clerics, bards, sorcerers, paladins, rangers, and wizards. The Dweomerlobe needs to be able to explain differences in mental ability requirements for the different classes, and so this as far as I can see necessitates different kinds of Dweomerlobes (or mutations). And this has no basis in D&D. Mutations exist in Sci-Fi and maybe "Cyberpunk", "Steampunk"/Gaslamp fantasy, but not High Fantasy. Exposure to "Solar Rays" doesn't do diddle spit in D&D because light is not radiation in D&D; its positive energy, maybe a little law/good (explains why vampires bite it), and it might have elements of fire and air associated with them. The Dweomerlobe might be something to implement in a campaign where psionics are the only form of supernatural occurrence, and this world takes on the form of some other kind of fantasy (it is no longer high fantasy). Seriously how many high fantasy novels (witches, warlocks, wizards, knights, priests, kings, damsels in distress, etc) have magic that is bound up in parts of their brains? It is far more reminiscent of the comic/show the Shadow (definitely reminds me of watching the movie the Shadow with Alec Baldwin, where at the end the guy is missing a "part of his brain that humans don't ever use; unless you believe in telepathy..." MTF Regardless of it's subjective state of decay, the undead creature's brain is apparently still capable of it's original function. If it's not, and some magical force or structure has replaced it, then that magical structure or force can also take over the job of manipulating other magical forces. Elementals are even more made of magic than incorporeal creatures are. If plants have the capacity for movement and thought, they probably have internal structures analogous to nerves and brain, and thus a structure analogous to a Dweomerlobe. If they're normal plants with some kind of magical animating force, then they fit under elementals. Dweomerlobes are NOT responsible for all magic in the universe. You have CLEARLY not been paying attention. Dweomerlobes are one of several structures that enable a creature to manipulate unrefined magic. You can perform magic without a dweomerlobe; however, for most living corporeal creatures with a discernible anatomy, the dweomerlobe is the principal theurgical structure used to accomplish this. That is not to say that other tissues might not be involved with magic (dragons, for example, have a magical metabolism that enables arcane energy to help drive many of their biochemical processes), but just like with all voluntary actions, the brain is what directs the elements required to perform the action in a certain way. Without a dweomerlobe, it is impossible to gain sufficient command of the arcane arts to approach the flexibility of a full spellcasting class. Any creature may sport tissues that refine magical energy towards a specific purpose [much like magic items can be structured to refine mystic energies to a particular goal], but these will have evolved naturally and unintelligently. Without a dweomerlobe, the creature cannot commandeer its arcane powers to produce effects other than the ones it was born with the ability to produce. Now, about the issue of different key abilities... First, we must be absolutely clear on what the key abilities represent: Intelligence represents thought, memory, reasoning ability, judgment, pattern recognition, problem-solving, intuition, and every other mental function in which humanity outperforms the other lifeforms on this planet. Intelligence also represents the brain's ability to form (and continually maintain) new connections between neurons that result in improved cognitive efficiency and memory retention. Hence, high Int allows you to improve your skills; thus, an Int that provides the extra skill points to spend on Spot [the investment of which represents the formation of improved sensory processing ability in the brain] is better than a Wisdom that provides a bonus on the skill check, which is usually considerably less than the bonus that additional ranks would provide. Wisdom represents sensory acuity (not 'perceptiveness'). It is here where the inadequacy of the game's vernacular becomes apparent. Every instance of wisdom or wise insight is in truth a product of intelligence. The fantasy trope of learned intelligence versus folk wisdom is really a case of dogma versus innovation (though this particular choice of words paints a picture where innovation is preferable; in truth, stupid ideas that spontaneously spring from a flawed mind far outnumber stupid ideas that stand the test of time long enough to become dogma). Wisdom represents instinct and the ability to filter sensory stimuli. While it is not possible (via 4-level Wisdom increases) to change the structure of your sensory organs to improve their receptivity, it IS possible to improve the parts of your brain that filter those stimuli, providing more useful information with which to make decisions via your Intelligence. Wisdom represents instinct, which is why most animals (despite Int scores of 1 or 2) have high Wisdom; they needed good, preprogrammed instincts to react to their environment more quickly and accurately. Divine magic is controlled by Wisdom because it does not come from you. The power is not the product of your own mind; it is provided by an external agency. Thus, it is not your ability to 'visualize' magical energy and memorize thought patterns, but your attunement to your environment; your receptivity to outside forces; the greater your environmental perceptiveness, the more magic you are able to absorb from your divine patron, which hears your prayers and answers them with magical patterns preprogrammed into spell form; they are stored in your brain or body; which has been conditioned to store magical energy (much like a mundane item is 'attuned' to become a magic item). To use a computing analogy, Wisdom is bandwith, while Intelligence is processing speed and memory capacity. The reason insanity is linked to Wisdom damage is because of a fundamental attribution bias. Madmen never think of themselves as mad; if they did, they would know they were wrong in their thinking and would endeavor to change it. Most of the extreme cases of insanity result from a departure from normal perceptions of reality. Hallucinations are the product of your own mind independent of other stimuli. A low Wisdom equates to a diminished ability to perceive reality in addition to difficulties in distinguishing objective reality from your own thoughts and visions. The reason why Will saves are Wisdom-based is because mind-affecting effects must disguise their external origins; if they are not indistinguishable from your own thoughts, you will recognize their departure from reality; in effect, you cannot notice the fact that you are 'mad,' whatever the form the madness takes. Thus, it also follows that having a Wisdom score equates to having a Charisma score. Charisma equates to emotion. Emotion is more basic than reasoning; thus many animals have Charisma scores significantly higher than their Intelligence scores (though few have scores that are the equal of ordinary humans). Charisma represents the drive to pursue your own self-interest. It equates to the ego, as well as leadership ability; those with Charisma scores higher than their fellows have a stronger desire to pursue their own self-interests (whatever [possibly unselfish] form those interests may take) than their lower-Charisma followers, who pursue the interests of higher-Chas rather than their own, because they choose to submit. Low Charisma equates to low self-esteem, lack of confidence (which results in a tendency to cave in to external pressures and more frequent displays of fear and cowardice), and fragile emotional balance (essentially, their happiness is largely dependent on external factors, and they have no control over their own emotions). Higher Charisma represents greater control over your own emotion-hey, that's it! Charisma represents your ability to control your own emotions. Emotions are triggered by outside forces. In the absence of strong internal control, these emotions cause you to react, rather than act. With better control of your emotions, however, you can choose to control your own life and pursue your goals in spite of negative feedback from your environment (which is picked up by Wisdom; thus, low Wisdom equates to a lessened perception of negative feedback and consequently a reduction in the frequency of inhibiting emotions such as fear. As an example, the madness of the derro provides +6 Cha in addition to their -6 Wis penalty; both of which vanish upon their return to sanity). The reason Charisma-based casters have more raw magical power is because their dweomerlobes form in a different part of the brain; an organism's drive to pursue its self interest is a primal instinct; it is what drives evolution. Thus, emotion arrived tens of millions of years before intelligence, and has grown more powerful through natural selection than emotion (I doubt many of you contest that emotion is a more potent force for determining your course of action than reason. If you do contest, please glance over the Wikipedia articles on 'cognitive biases,' then rethink your position). However, emotional thinking does not lend itself well to complex thought; thus, sorcerers learn more and more powerful spells less ably than wizards. An inborn talent for magic arose through evolutionary processes; thus, it more likely evolved in parallel to Intelligence rather than as a consequence of it. Thus, humans with a touch of magical ancestry inherit their ancestor's more potent and primal magical talents, which are usually developed in preference to exploring Int-based magic as well (which explains why Ultimage Magi can be so powerful [this statement may not be refuted with arguments about character optimization]). Well, there you have it, Auori--people: another installment in the Saga of the Temporarily Unemployed.
strange_person 09-10-07, 08:33 PM	True. But a single magic missile could only deal 5 points of damage. That 5 points had to have knocked the familiar unconscious, causing it to fall (which is what actually killed it). So the master can't have had more than 10 hp, and probably less than 6. So, chances are good it was actually the familiar of another student. And since girls think bats are icky, it was probably a boy. It's also possible the familiar was already wounded, or that rather than being knocked unconscious it simply failed a Concentration roll to keep hovering while taking damage.
ManTimeForgot 09-11-07, 01:58 AM	Pitiless: It is obvious you are an intelligent guy, but you aren't playing the same game as the rest of us or you would realize that your descriptions of everything have nothing to do with the way the D&D universe works. Metabolisms, genetics, brain chemistry... all of these things don't exist as far as D&D is concerned. It is not that science isn't advanced enough in D&D to invent the disciplines; it is that they do not exist period. D&D's science is that of elemental forces: earth, air, fire, and water. Earth is the reason why things have hardness. If you strip the earth element from something it becomes soft. Fire is the reason why things burn. If you strip the fire element from something it won't burn. Air is the reason why things move. If you strip the air element from something it is paralyzed. Water is responsible for what we would call friction. If you removed the water element from something it looses its slipperiness. So while I applaud you for trying to come up with pseudo-scientific reasons for D&D mechanics; it is a fundamentally flawed endeavor. Pseudo-science has its place in certain forms of fantasy, but D&D aspires to be High Fantasy, and in High Fantasy science is not the way of things. Medieval Alchemy is the "science" of the age. And your definitions of the attributes also don't conform to D&D. Yet again it is a fundamental attribution error stemming from your desire to alter D&D into something more scientifically grounded. Your assessment of intelligence is close. You over-emphasize the associations with intelligence. Intuition (low level/sub-conscious assessment) is a function of wisdom. Creativity is Intelligence, because learning is under intelligences purview, but intuition is specifically mentioned as being a function of wisdom. Wisdom is something you got mostly wrong. Perception is a function of wisdom because for the most part wisdom = mental clarity. Wisdom for D&D is the mental/spiritual defense stat, so when your "essence" or "mind" comes under attack it is your mental toughness (aka wisdom) which resists it. Intelligence is indeed how fast you process information, but wisdom determines how accurately you do so. Clarity (both intellectually and spiritually) and the wisdom stat are very good analogues. Charisma is something that almost everyone gets wrong in D&D, so I don't really hold it against you for having a bad interpretation of it, but you did really over simplify the stat. Charisma is no where close to "just a measure of one's emotional control." There are characters who control their emotions a great deal, becoming cold, calculating individuals suppressing their personality, but do not have a high charisma. A person can be attractive to others without being in control of his emotions. He could be the wildest person ever and not be attractive, and on that same note this wildly emotional individual could also be unattractive, so there exists no logical association. Ergo "emotional control" is clearly an incorrect explanation. A much better definition of D&D Charisma is "Social Prowess." Personal magnetism/attractiveness falls under the notion of "Social Prowess" fairly easily, as does the ability to lead and convince others of things. But this too falls a little short when you consider the ancillary associations charisma has: like the paladin's saving throw bonus or turn undead attempts. You could argue that the cleric receives bonus attempts and stronger turning because his deity likes him more (better personality), but even this is stretching things, and this fails to take into account paladins who do not even need deities, or even a world with deities or celestials in them. D&D charisma attempts to take into account the quality of heroes that the ancient greek heroes possessed. To the ancient greeks heroes were all larger than life: literally. They were all of great stature, stronger, faster, and better than all of us. And so for D&D charisma is a kind of divine attribute which makes people seem better than they are, makes their everything just that much more prominent. Charisma is force of personality... But what is that in D&D? D&D does very little to dissociate personality, mind, and spirit/essence. So Charisma in D&D is force of spirit or force of essence. The charisma stat is how prominent your spirit is, how divine is it. Wizards in D&D wield magics because they possess the knowledge of the secrets of creation, how to manipulate the elements, carefully squirreled away behind arcane and esoteric writings so that the uninitiated cannot learn them. The formulae for the governing of existence is complex and requires memory and reasoning skill capable of grasping multiple interactions amongst the elements and planes, such that only the intelligent can hope to learn them. And wizards are limited in how many alterations they can prepare exactly because memory is only so good, and the secrets of existence so large that encompassing many is extremely difficult. Clerics and Druids wield magical power because of their connection with the divine. And it is exactly because by its very nature the divine transcends human existence that wisdom governs divine casting. It is only with great clarity, great insight, great mental endurance, a wide scope and understanding of things beyond the mortal, that one may hope to channel the power of the divine. Too much divine power would quite simply drive a lesser man insane, and it is this great clarity, this ability to withstand the power of the great truths and otherworldly power that allows the clerics and druids of this world to wield divine power. And last of all charisma' that's the easy one. Force of spirit; how much of one's spirit does or can be projected outward or the ability to attract/influence friendly spirits are all plausible explanations for magical ability, but it is the former that D&D uses most. Remember in D&D souls are a divine or otherworldly essence. Magic in D&D has to control the elements not electricity. Magic in D&D has to be rooted in an understanding of souls and cosmology not biochemistry and particle physics. I honestly think you have done a good job coming up with a method of explaining magic, but it just isn't D&D magic. Take it to a Rifts or Technomage fantasy and your methods are Golden. But here... not so much. MTF
strange_person 09-11-07, 09:05 AM	Charisma is something that almost everyone gets wrong in D&D, so I don't really hold it against you for having a bad interpretation of it, but you did really over simplify the stat. Charisma is no where close to "just a measure of one's emotional control." There are characters who control their emotions a great deal, becoming cold, calculating individuals suppressing their personality, but do not have a high charisma. A person can be attractive to others without being in control of his emotions. He could be the wildest person ever and not be attractive, and on that same note this wildly emotional individual could also be unattractive, so there exists no logical association. Ergo "emotional control" is clearly an incorrect explanation. Someone who compulsively represses all emotions is no more demonstrating emotional control than am I weilding this chair by sitting in it. Someone who is physically attractive but has little emotional control with have a hard time persuading anyone of anything, because they can't even persuade themselves.
Auorix 09-11-07, 02:55 PM	Metabolisms, genetics, brain chemistry... all of these things don't exist as far as D&D is concerned. It is not that science isn't advanced enough in D&D to invent the disciplines; it is that they do not exist period. D&D's science is that of elemental forces: earth, air, fire, and water. Earth is the reason why things have hardness. If you strip the earth element from something it becomes soft. Fire is the reason why things burn. If you strip the fire element from something it won't burn. Air is the reason why things move. If you strip the air element from something it is paralyzed. Water is responsible for what we would call friction. If you removed the water element from something it looses its slipperiness. I dont recall reading much of what you wrote above, and dont believe it is a better answer than what Pitiless_Interfector has come up with. Hell, I think what Pitiless wrote is far more logical and creative than what you came up. The things Pitiless came up with have as much a place in D&D as your elemental theory. Wizards in D&D wield magics because they possess the knowledge of the secrets of creation, how to manipulate the elements, carefully squirreled away behind arcane and esoteric writings so that the uninitiated cannot learn them. The formulae for the governing of existence is complex and requires memory and reasoning skill capable of grasping multiple interactions amongst the elements and planes, such that only the intelligent can hope to learn them. And wizards are limited in how many alterations they can prepare exactly because memory is only so good, and the secrets of existence so large that encompassing many is extremely difficult. Sorry, I dont buy the words of creation bit. Its just not a simple answer. Now a university devoted to expanding ones brain to be able to hold and shape magical energies that must be deciphered and memorized....that sounds more logical. That says that normal people cannot learn magic...what stops a commoner from overhearing some of these secrets of creation and mimic them? Again not recalling anywhere in D&D saying that this is how magic is either. Saying your entitled to your own opinion is said too often...and your point of view is a little creative I suppose...but I think you are dead wrong saying Pitiless was incorrect...when in my opinion was far more logical and creative than most things I have read here and in source books. To Pitiless, dont let people come here and derail you from what your doing. I understand the need to defend your writings, but dont put too much emphasis on it. I would advise to just stay focused on the creative writings...cant please everyone. Lots of people like what your opinion is on the subject. PS It was prob the bats fault...what was it doing flying over the evocation fields anyways? That is just asking for it! I can remember being back on some ranges in the military and man, if something moved down range it would draw fire from like 25 lanes of shooters sometimes.
Funnytom 09-12-07, 01:04 AM	This is a fascinating thread, I must say! Good work by Pitiless_Interfector on the quality of writing, and for that matter most of the points he makes! The one point I wasn't so sure about was the bit about developing the dweomerlobe. Is it just a case of brain training (so teaching onesself how to visualise and hold the symbols and words so that they can be recited ect to channel magic) or are you thinking more of puropsely modifiying a large chunk of the brain to store and cast spells? Now, onto a few recent quotes... Sorry, I dont buy the words of creation bit. Its just not a simple answer. Now a university devoted to expanding ones brain to be able to hold and shape magical energies that must be deciphered and memorized....that sounds more logical. Er, why? I find the idea of a brain being able to store a fireball (or the magical bits of it at least) a little difficult to credit, whereas simply storing the knowledge to tap into the magical field (or whatever...) at a given time seems a bit more reasonable to me. A much better definition of D&D Charisma is "Social Prowess." Personal magnetism/attractiveness falls under the notion of "Social Prowess" fairly easily, as does the ability to lead and convince others of things. But this too falls a little short when you consider the ancillary associations charisma has: like the paladin's saving throw bonus or turn undead attempts. I do like your description of charisma here, but I must ask how that fits in with the charasima associated skills (persuade, bluff ect.). Isin't that at least partly a case of using control over facial features, words ect to swing someone over to your side? Charisma represents your ability to control your own emotions. Is that really all a likeable person does? Make their emotions work how they want them too? It seems a little too simple to me (though it does nicely explain the turn undead bit, as well as some other charisma based skills) as far as explainations go.
ManTimeForgot 09-12-07, 04:36 AM	You all are right to point out that I am only speculating on just how spellcasting works with regard to specific classes, but I'm not "making things up" when it comes to cosmology. Just what precisely do you all think the elements are in D&D? Just what do you think positive and negative energy are? Just what do you think the forces of law, chaos, evil, and good do? Are you all seriously prepared to tell me that you believe that Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good do nothing, and that alignment has nothing to do with anything? Why do so many spells care about alignment? You all don't honestly believe that so many spells are targeted based on morality do you? Elemental manipulation isn't theory for D&D; it's how the bloody game is written, has been since the start of 2ed (and from what I have been told by my uncles who played First edition this was just as true in 1ed). Did you all even bother to read the manual of the planes? The descriptions of the quasi-elemental planes do a very good job of showing how the various elements and forces interact. Or are you all still laboring under the notions that Positive and Negative energy are "energy" in name only? Do you suppose that "Positive Energy" heals people because biochemical reactions are powered by "positive energy?" Try again guys. Positive energy is closer to "chi" than it is to "electrical impulses" or "a body's signal to heal itself." I repeat; I do not think this is a bad explanation for magic period. It just cannot possibly explain magic in D&D. Yes, magic and to a lesser extent cosmology vary by campaign, so I can't say that this explanation has no place in your campaign (play however you damn well please, you don't need my permission), but all cosmologies in D&D share certain immutable characteristics, and amongst those is the presence of Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Positive & Negative Energy, Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good as Forces (which necessitates the feature of alignment as people's essences become associated with Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos respectively). If your game doesn't use the 4 alchemical elements, positive energy driven life forms, negative energy driven death/undead, Law as a force fomenting order, Chaos as a force fomenting dischord, Evil as a force fomenting selfishness and unnatural death, and Good as a force fomenting selflessness and a desire to prevent unnatural death, Then you are not playing the game of D&D, and therefore cannot generalize any of your claims to the game in general. It's one thing to say like the Forgotten Realms does: that a specific planar construct is responsible for magic (planar construction is not a constant in D&D), but it is very different to try and introduce science beyond newtonian mechanics (or anything for that matter which violates the principles of alchemy: don't tell me you all missed the presence of alchemy in the game too?) because alchemical "science" is written into the core rules. And that said I'm done. I like the guys work; it would work great in a steampunk or sci-fi/magic hybrid work, so I have a lot of respect for the work put in, and that's where the line is drawn. If you guys want it in your D&D by all means, but that won't change the fact that what you call D&D will be wholly and irrevocably different and incompatible with everyone else's D&D. MTF
Senevri 09-13-07, 03:02 PM	How does that work for disembodied spirits who are mages, and such?) I'm quoting all over the place, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse... *ahem* Spirits _Are_ magic, as can be seen in the fact that incorporeal beings do not exist in Antimagic Field. The specific meat their brain had is of little consequence at that point. You can describe the Force in "scientific terms" without making it be generated by little swimmy things that live in your blood, which is an outright *contradiction* of claims that the Force transcends physical reality and is generated by life itself. Well... Do the bugs-in-blood generate Force, or are they in fact something that's attracted to a living organism who's strong in the force? Remember, Qui-Gon was considered somewhat of a heretic, when it came to his world-view. Also, let's not get into Ysalamiri.
BaseDeltaZero 09-13-07, 07:49 PM	kay, I've been tempted. I'm going to launch into an explanation of another viewpoint of magic... - it's similar, but not the same, to that proposed by pitiless interfector. It's written from a scientific, rather than mythopaeic, veiwpoint, so some won't like it. I'm off the opinion that things are generally better when you can answer 'why'. Now, it's not standard D&D - it's a modern D&D campaign (different from D20 Modern), but it's the way magic has always worked in this campaign. I'll start with an explanation of some misconceptions (basically, how it doesn't work like conventional D&D). But first, quotes. "Magic is the supernatural ability to tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit in the corner." - Anonymous citizen, revealing a profound ignorance of how magic actually works. “Magic is not contrary to reason. Magic is not a new phenomenon. It is simply a new way of controlling old forces.” - Dr. Stan Falstaff, Professor of Physics at MIT and Archmage The average bookstore might have a hundred books on magic, and likely none of them would contain anything resembling the truth. (Those that do usually do so by accident). As such, it is unsurprising that those citizens who know anything about magic usually know the wrong things. First of all, Type B spellcasting has nothing to do with dragons – it is a matter of willpower alone. Dragons do claim to have (and probably did) invented sorcery, however. This superstition can only be assumed to have been started by ‘casters hoping to make themselves sound more impressive. Secondly, on the subject of Psionics – the term is often thought to refer to a mysterious discipline that somehow performs the same things magic does without using mana, and instead merely utilizing ‘the power of the mind’ (though it otherwise behaves exactly like magic, and even has a slightly different but exactly parallel vocabulary)… this is patent nonsense. First of all, the concept of being able to perform the rather significant effects of spells with the milliwatt of energy in the average brain (but see #3) is an atrocity against the laws of thermodynamics… (and see #4). However, the term psionics does exist. It means ‘magic’. For that matter, all magic uses the ‘power of the mind’ (see #3) in a very real way. The terms are interchangeably – Psionics is often used as a technical term for magic; the word psychic (or for short, psyker) and to a lesser extent, psion, are all appropriate terms for a spellcaster. ‘Power’ is sometimes used in place of ‘spell’ and ‘manifest’ is considered a more sophisticated term than ‘cast’. One possible source of this misconception is the Order of the Crystal Eye, a mysterious Nepalese group which has developed a new (Type F) spellcasting discipline that offers unprecedented versatility… but they remain mages. #3 – A popular, and probably deliberate, error among mundane scientists and especially, atheists (a dwindling population, as it’s becoming more and more apparent they are, in fact, totally wrong), is that magic is directly linked to the brain. This belief originated in the middle ages, where ‘physicians’ of the era regularly claimed to have identified the brain area responsible, leading to a ‘temporal’ reputation that resulted in arcane spellcasting being a somewhat… unpopular career choice. Part of the problem is that the true source of spellcasting can only be seen by magic – the soul. The realization that the mind is in fact independent of the body was gradual and revolutionary, beginning in 1830 at the end of the Fade, but it eventually become obvious, at least to the initiated, that magic was not dependent on the body. The soul, and only the soul, can channel and control the Mana – they are, in fact, similar ‘energies’. This fact is made somewhat obvious by the fact soulless creatures cannot cast spells, regardless of how complex their bodies might be, and incorporeal spirits can. Note also how the reanimated body of even the most powerful spellcaster is incapable of even a cantrip, and an Awakened Golem (A homogenous construct) can learn to cast spells. #4 – The laws of physics cannot be broken. Goodbye, the end. Magic can deceive the gullible into thinking so, however. All magic does is control a different kind of energy. Conjuration spells (the ones most often accused), bring objects from other planes, assemble them from existing matter, or simply sublime after a brief interval (these items are either taken from the Void or assembled from raw mana). Although a spellcaster is braced against the worst of the reactions from spells, and most do not actually originate at the caster him/herself, any ‘caster can testify that almost all spells have ‘recoil.’ The handful of spells that interfere with time or space are among the mosot dangerous of spells, and should be used with caution, and in moderation. However, they do not break the laws of physics - they simply warp space-time – the danger is in causing a spacial rift. On a final note, actually attempting to break the laws of physics is almost certain to result in a swift and probably painful death. (If the consequences of failure don’t kill you, the Inevitables will) The first and most crucial information to know about magic is thus – it exists. The Great Dragon Koryialstratz said as much, but few believed her then. Magic is widely believed to exist, but far more rarely known to exist. Magic is the conventional name for an energy field that pervades the universe. Called Mana, after the equally omnipresent life force of Hawaiian myth, this energy is drawn to objects, creatures, and locations – nearly everything. The more intelligent (and remember that intelligence comes in many varieties) the creature, or the more emotion and significance invested in the thing, the more Mana accumulates. Mana is difficult to precisely measure, but the quantity in any given 10 cubic meter area is widely thought to exceed a terajoule. It is also worth noting that planes or areas without life are devoid of Mana. With training (i.e. practice), it is possible for humans (and probably all other sentient creatures) to learn to sense the Mana. Though often called ‘seeing’, it is not – Mana is not actually visible per se, and in any case the eyes are not involved at all – it is simply the closest term. A more accurate, and perhaps more poetic explanation would be ‘imagining reality’. It is also possible to view Mana, in a sense, through a non-magical means – Kyrlian photography – the tendrils seen are caused by mana emissions. When this crucial step in a spellcaster’s training is completed, the individual can learn to gather the Mana around them, and, with practice (I.E. trial and, especially, error), control it. The energy gathered in this manner is not harmful – but the gathering itself is stressful. It can only be done so often, and only so much energy can be contained. In any case, a spellcaster ‘running hot’ as it is called, resembles a supernova when viewed with Manasight. For their part, a spellcaster with full Mana feels more energetic, healthier, and just better than normal, and becomes tired as they lose Mana. A spellcaster can use this gathered energy to act as a catalyst, activating larger quantities of Mana (on a more or less linear basis) to act on subjects as he or she chooses. These effects are known as spells, and each one requires a great deal of concentration, precision, and control, as the mage must control mana through mental power alone - easier than it sounds, as it responds to thought, but it's still challenging to get it to respond in the way you want. To help manage their energy, most spellcasters organize their Mana into separate ‘packages’, each one powering a spell. Most spellcasters (a slim majority) do not memorize specific spells, per se, but instead devote their efforts to mastering the general mechanics of magic. These individuals are commonly known as wizards, though numerous other titles exist. We’ll simply use ‘Type A’. With a quick glance at an arcanogram, they can shape a mote of magic (called simply, well, a mote. (or a dweomer by those with more fancy words than sense)) that allows them to quickly cast a specific spell when needed. Later they can normally restore spells they had previously cast when they evoke (gather Mana) by recreating the spell from rudiments – the leftover Mana ‘strands’ from the last casting – a ghost of a spell. Eventually they can learn spells well enough that they don’t even need a rudiment to assemble an appropriate mote – they can simply assemble it from memory, as many learn to do with simple spells like Read Magic or Detect Magic. Mana - the primal energy responsible for magic. Shares properties of electromagnetic energy and X-Entities, in that it can interact with both the 'real' as electromagnetism and the 'spiritual' as an X-Entity Manasight - the state of consciousness which allows an individual to sense and interact with raw Mana. The exact nature of this state varies from individual to individual, but generally involves achieving a sort of 'heightened awareness'. Mage - from the term 'Magus/Magi', meaning 'wise man'. This refers to any individual capable of spellcasting, though it is usually reserve for those who focus on it. Wizard - A wizard is a mage skilled in the principles of magic. Because of his (or her - female wizards are not called witches. Ignore this at your own peril.) knowledge of these principles, he can assemble a mote capable of producing almost any effect. The primary disadvantage over most other types is that wizards are not able to reassemble motes on the fly. Arcanogram - An arcanogram is technically any image used to represent the forces involved in a spell, or a geometric structure used to guide those same forces. The most common arcanograms, however, are complex three dimensional images used to record spells for later reference - either stored electronically (cheaper) or by using enchanted books (easier). Dweomer - Technical term for a pre-assembled structure of mana that is used to power a spell, dating back to the 8th century. A more contemporary term, and more common one, is simply 'mote'. Rudiment- <<Characters in this setting get spells per hour, rather than per day. Furthermore, a character is capable of re-preparing an expended spell, if he or she so chooses.>> Other spellcasters take a different approach, memorizing by heart a few specific spells. With considerable effort, a spellcaster of this type can choose the spells they learn, but for the most part, the spells mostly develop themselves, though they very, very, very rarely demonstrate effects beyond the normal domain. If they do, it is still quite difficult for others to learn it… Disregarding that detour, the spells a ‘caster of this type masters are essentially determined by personality, circumstance, necessity and to a lesser degree willpower and exposure. Thus, their spells are in a way a reflection of themselves. In any case, their mastery of these spells means that they can utilize unspeciated motes of Mana to cast any mastered spell on the fly – a tremendous advantage, that, coupled with their greater Mana levels, is somewhat mitigated by their lack of flexibility. This activity generally normally takes less of the logical thinking immanent in Type A spellcasting and more brute mental force… many spellcasters of other varieties think this ‘Type B’ spellcasting distasteful if not profane. Type B spellcasting exhibits perhaps the most variety, however. In addition the typical, full-scale Type B1, it contains one of the more exotic disciplines, B2. B2 Spellcasting takes direct focus on the specific characteristics of spells, even if an unconscious one. Every spell behaves in a set manner – it has a geometric ‘design’, and a frequency. In B2 spellcasting, by careful (or perhaps intuitive), direct emulation of either the frequency or layout, spells can be accomplished with less investment of mana. Although B2 ‘casters can never reach the power of a more devoted spellcaster, this remarkably simple style (it’s possible to learn accidentally) results in an astonishing variety of spells that are rarely mastered by arcane spellcasters, with a focus on spells that replicate frequencies (that is, sonic spells) or control information (or other objects), and additionally can create minor magical effects of an entirely unique type… the flaw is that either the Verbal or Somatic component can never be ignored. B2, however, is only one of several sub-disciplines of Type B Spellcasting. B1-1, a variety that focuses on a specific aspect of magic to the exclusion of all others, is a rumored variety. And then, there are divine spellcasters (Type C). Most claim the power of their spells comes from God(s?), and they certainly seem to need less effort. A divine caster prays for spells at a designated time of day (usually), and they are restored throughout the day with naught but a short prayer. Those who observe this (and priests can see Mana too, although arguably not as well) claim the Mana seems to come to them of its own accord. The common theory is that the power does not so much come from a specific ‘deity’, but more from the ‘caster’s own faith. In the same way as a wizard masters spells through intellect, the divine spellcaster controls spells through a more mystic, intuitive knowledge and his belief that he (or his god, at least) can do it. Divine spells are further divided into Type C1 (Deific) spells and Type C2 (Naturalistic) spells, but many argue the distinction is arbitrary. Divine spells will be covered in greater detail later on. Stranger still are the various disciplines an experienced Arcanist (or divine spellcaster) can learn, but all operate on similar principles. Some will be covered in more detail later on. More than one individual has been observed, after seeing a spell casting, fervently imitating the gestures and speech the ‘caster performed, under the impression that if they get it right, the spell will work. This is, needless to say, untrue. The complex gestures and phrases used by spellcasters are useful mental exercises – nothing more (except when they’re Command Words, but that’s another story). They help the spellcaster focus (remember, they can see the manastreams, and their hand movement appears to be interacting with it from their perspective). The ‘verbal component’ operates on the same principle as a martial arts battle cry - it focuses the caster's attention, giving the spell an extra mental 'boost'. The verbal/somatic components are not specific to each spell – different ‘casters use different ones, and even the same ‘caster may use different ones at different times. Without these components, casting the spell becomes considerably harder – more Mana is wasted, thus resulting in an overall worse spell. Therefore, spellcasters with the skill to do so reserve their ability to go without for when they really need it (i.e., when restrained or shouting something would endanger them). Far fewer spells require an item to function. Often, this item is consumed in the casting, but not always. This can work one of three ways… - The caster thinks the item helps, and therefore it does. This decision is usually based on principles of alchemy, elementalism, sympathetic magic or other nonsense (though not entirely... however, most of these disciplines that people know of are incorrect). However, because the caster imbues it with meaning, its effect is very real. - The object is actually used in the spellcasting. It might become part of a projectile, be multiplied, or some useful property extracted. Some theorize a spell could be made to use matter simply as annihilable material, but this has not been done yet. - The object is charged, or given properties in the preparation of the spell. Some also theorize that the object has a structure inherently beneficial to the spell, which is imitated in casting. Certainly, crystals (a popular item) have extremely intricate structures and are very good channels of mana. It is possible to overcome this, to a certain degree. However, the more complex the spell, the more difficult it is to go without the object - especially as many of these more advanced spells actually use objects with inherent properties. Even these hurdles, however, can be overcome by the sufficently determined mage - though it is far more difficult. Some of the most powerful spells cannot be accomplished by mana alone, and require an infusion of Vita to work properly. This is the true 'life-force' to Mana's 'mind-force', and is arguably more powerful - expending it allows accomplishments beyond the norm, but leaves the caster weakened - potentially injured. Furthermore, this results in a permanent reduction of their CEL Reading, generally believed to correspond to mana output. More esoteric components exist, ranging from the odd (spells that sap their casters in body and mind) to the bizarre (spells which require use of a particular drug). All About Souls Any discussion about spellcasting is eventually drawn onto the subject of souls. First and foremost, it is incorrect to say that a person ‘has’ a soul. You are a soul; you have a body. Secondly, the soul is difficult to describe with any preexisting scientific principles – though it does not, of course, break the laws of physics. It is not mass, it not energy – it is something else: an X-Entity. When ‘viewed’ magically (a formidable task), it is best described as resembling a shimmer of thought – usually in at least the general shape of the body belonging to it. The soul is massless (the famous experiments of Duncan MacDougall notwithstanding), self-controlled, it is not a wave, and does not consist of particles (although perhaps it could be thought of a single particle… just one that doesn’t act like a particle). It is capable of controlling objects and forces (like mana!) without touching or even interacting with them by means of Vita. Very similar to Mana, Vita is the life-energy, ‘spirit’ as it might be called. The Vita surrounds the soul, and souls are commonly thought to be composed of a variant. It obeys the commands of the soul without traditional interaction, like it is an extension of it. In any case, a soul is like energy – it cannot be destroyed – ever (nobody’s quite sure about creation). The Vita binds it to the body, and some magic can sever this link (as can death). By manipulating the Vita, the soul can be controlled, in a sense… nothing can control the mental aspect of soul (Charm/Dominate spells rely on a peculiar delusion/direct severance of its control of the body). This control is the foundation for such spells as Trap the Soul. The Vita attached to a soul could be a potent power source (magic attests to this), but the act of harvesting it would be reprehensible. While a soul cannot be destroyed, it can be harmed. Vita, the spirit energy, is the source of the technical appellation ‘spirit’ to numerous creatures. Outsiders, Elementals, incorporeal undead, Fey, and for that matter, most incorporeal creatures, are all spirits. Vita can emulate matter, as is the case with Outsiders, Elementals, and Fey (which are essentially more ‘human’ elementals). All of these creatures, for the most part, lack an anatomy – they are homogenous Vita. Outsiders in particular, are much more intelligent, in every manner, than mortals. This is for a simple reason – not only the does soul not depend on the body, it is actually hindered by it. The severity of this discrepancy cannot be overstated. X-Entity: An X-Entity is a peculiar item that defies classification as either matter or energy. It is not even a particle, but a single, non-dimensional object. Self contained, it has no interaction with matter and energy, but can interact with some intermediate energies, such as mana. "The westerners are fools! They understand not the power of the five elements!" "The only elements relevant to magic can be found on the periodic table." Not all mana is the same - it is capable of speciation. Being essentially thought energy, it, or perhaps the Vita (the distinction is not entirely clear) becomes attached to other concepts. This attachment results in the forces commonly known as Elemental Energy, although the term is not technically correct as these entites have little in common with electromagnetism. Eventually mana speciated in this way condenses into a physical manifestation of the specific element. Until then, this elemental mana assumes the 'properties' of the specific element. By manipulating speciated mana, instead of raw mana, effects relevant to that element can be made to function more efficiently. It is generally believed that the atrribution of properties to these elements is, in fact, a thought driven proccess, in that they have these traits because people believe them to have these traits. Like all mana, speciated mana comes from within the fabric of reality, creating non-quantum realities composed almost entirely of this energy. Though first created by thought, these energies can combine and evolve, achieving hybrids sharing the properties of several... By and large, the elemental nature of magic is poorly understood and anarchic, but the properties of several different elements/energies are understood. The most prominent elements are the Greek Classics - Earth - representing solidity, stillness; Water - representing amorphousness, but also both placidity and power; Fire - represnting will, creation and destruction; and Air, which represents travel, etc. Added to those are Wood (Nature) and Metal, as well as Lightning, Frost, and other interactions. It is unknown wether the material associations came first, creating the elements, or the materials were simply associated with different elements. In any case, they perform best at manipulating that 'substance' and elementals are composed of it. Negative Energy is the force associated with death and decay - anti-Vita. It is associated with negative emotions but actually is not caused by them (in fact, it causes them - not exclusively). Negative Energy is best known for creating undead - but alone, it does not create, it destroys. Undead are actually powered by a combination of trapped Vita and negative energy. Elements also align themselves along ethical lines - it is possible to have 'Elemental Good' or 'Elemental Evil'. In this case, however, it is clear that these forces are created by sentient creatures - 'Good' and 'Evil' are not independent entities, though they are essentially forces dependent on other creatures. The case of elemental magic is clear example of the chicken coming before the egg. Elemental XXX does not beget XXX, XXX becomes associated with other concepts and begets Elemental XXX. Those who think they understand magic because they understand alchemical mythology (it didn't work then, it doesn't work now. Granted, many alchemists were mages, but they were wrong in their estimations of how it worked. Comments? Questions? Insults?
Novem 09-16-07, 11:45 AM	You can describe the Force in "scientific terms" without making it be generated by little swimmy things that live in your blood, which is an outright *contradiction* of claims that the Force transcends physical reality and is generated by life itself. There's a difference between making something more "scientific" in the sense that it follows predictable, repeatable rules and making it more "scientific" in the sense that you make up some hokey explanation for it that you think makes it more like something that could "really happen". The "Medichloriaons" are based on Mitochondrion, a REAL symbiotic creature THAT REALLY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL OF OUR PHYSICAL ENERGY! Perhaps some people don't like their Science Fiction to be based on, well, Science I love this thread. The OP's Mordenkainen was logical and accurate, and the idea of a Dweomerlobe makes sense. In a fantasy setting, realism is very important- Fantasy is about taking the world as-is, and making some changes to the laws of Physics, etc., and then watching them interact with the rest of the laws, which remain unchanged.
Novem 09-16-07, 11:52 AM	Some people seem to want to tell us that Physics doesn't apply to D&D. BS. In my campaign, the laws of Physics are as they are, with the changes mentioned in the rules. If someone honestly thinks they can come to the forum, tell us we're not playing D&D, and explain that this is because D&D is the way HE SAYS IT IS, without the rules saying so, I have a problem. Pitiless makes much more sense than his detractors. Please, those who disagree, stop telling us how to play the game.
BaseDeltaZero 09-20-07, 10:56 PM	Some people seem to want to tell us that Physics doesn't apply to D&D. BS. In my campaign, the laws of Physics are as they are, with the changes mentioned in the rules. If someone honestly thinks they can come to the forum, tell us we're not playing D&D, and explain that this is because D&D is the way HE SAYS IT IS, without the rules saying so, I have a problem. Pitiless makes much more sense than his detractors. Please, those who disagree, stop telling us how to play the game. I agree, although I'd say that if the rules contradict the laws of physics too severely (some abstraction is okay), it either needs an explanation... or, the rule is flawed. Also, the detractors to Interfector seem to be basically saying 'OMG! You got your logic in my D&D!' The "Medichloriaons" are based on Mitochondrion, a REAL symbiotic creature THAT REALLY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL OF OUR PHYSICAL ENERGY! Perhaps some people don't like their Science Fiction to be based on, well, Science It's Midi-Chlorian in Star Wars, and the Mitochondria you're thinking of aren't symbiotic creatures, they're a part of cells. They're responsible, as you say, for converting stored nutrients into energy. Fantasy is about taking the world as-is, and making some changes to the laws of Physics, etc., and then watching them interact with the rest of the laws, which remain unchanged. Science Fantasy, which is what most 'modern' fantasy really is, is as you describe - it makes assumptions, often within reasons, and then extrapolates conclusions in at least a psuedo-logical manner (although many authors start with the conclusions). True traditional Fantasy, is about just making stuff up as you go (i.e. fairie tales and the like). I.E - The Kingdom of X is like this, because Y (where Y is generally its history, geography, people, etc, and Z (let's say, magic) works like A, vs The Kingdom of X is like this because I say so and Z does whatever I say at this moment. Also, let's not get into Ysalamiri. They never troubled me at all. I imagine they emit a kind of 'interference pattern' that makes using the force difficult. Palpatine could do the same thing, extrapolating from the novels and how he managed to slaughter 3 Jedi Masters like pushovers in RotS. Replacing an XP cost with a spellcraft check (and a pretty easy one, at that)? Not okay. That'd be why it's an artifact. Final Note: The 'Alchemical Items' in D&D might as well just be called 'Chemical Items'. They do nothing beyond the capablities of simple chemical agents (even ones available in
ArcTan 09-21-07, 04:33 AM	The "Medichloriaons" are based on Mitochondrion, a REAL symbiotic creature THAT REALLY IS THE SOURCE OF ALL OF OUR PHYSICAL ENERGY! Perhaps some people don't like their Science Fiction to be based on, well, Science I was aware of "midi-chlorian"/"mitochondrion", yes. I've played Parasite Eve, and I've taken high school bio -- how could I not be aware? And I thought it was dumb in Parasite Eve, and I thought it was dumb in Star Wars too. I'd rather that they just let the magic be magic than give it a "science-sounding" explanation that, to anyone who knows the science, is just as dumb as no explanation at all. I mean, yes, mitochondria are the "source of all our energy". This is chemical energy in the form of ATP that cells use. It is not magical energy in the form of telepathy and predicting the future and zapping things with lightning bolts. There is no connection between the two. It just feels like they're trying too hard. Magic telepathy energy coming from mitochondria makes no more sense than magic telepathy energy coming from your cells themselves, or from your brain, or from your skin. It only *sounds like* it makes sense if all you've read is the definition of "mitochondrion" in a dictionary and have no idea what they actually are. It feels lame, like they're trying to sound like they know what they're talking about but don't actually, like lame TV shows that show a human being "catching a virus" from their computer. It's dumb. It's especially unforgivable because the unexplained Force in the original Star Wars trilogy was kinda cool. I can actually get behind the non-scientific, quasi-Buddhist philosophy of idealism that Yoda was talking about when Yoda told us how the Force worked -- that it worked because the physical world was an illusion and sentient minds that can grasp that the world is illusion can see past it and make anything they want to happen, happen. That's *cool*. It's not scientific at all, by definition. That's what's cool about it. Making it come from midi-chlorians muddles that elegant, crystal-clear explanation of how the Force works. What's *worse*, it *implicitly contradicts* it. If real, physical creatures called midi-chlorians are responsible for the Force, then the Force really is energy in the real physical world. Seeing past the illusion of samsara has nothing to do with it. The capacity to comprehend reality has nothing to do with it -- the Force doesn't come from sentient thought overriding perception, it comes from little things in your blood. I'm not saying the idea is unsalvageable, but the way it was presented collapsed a very central part of what made people like the Star Wars fiction, and did it in one fell swoop, for *no good reason* -- so they could have a pseudo-scientific "test" on Anakin Skywalker to confirm how awesome he was, again undermining the concept of the Force being something intrinsic to life and sentience, rather than chemicals and microorganisms. It was really lame. There is a reason most people didn't like it who liked Star Wars.
ArcTan 09-21-07, 04:36 AM	I love this thread. The OP's Mordenkainen was logical and accurate, and the idea of a Dweomerlobe makes sense. In a fantasy setting, realism is very important- Fantasy is about taking the world as-is, and making some changes to the laws of Physics, etc., and then watching them interact with the rest of the laws, which remain unchanged. See, this is what I don't get. Even if there was a dweomerlobe, the things it did would be physically impossible. Nothing about having a special node in your brain makes the kind of transmission of energy arbitrarily over distances plausible at all. It just takes all the impossibility and puts it in one physical box. Why is that really more preferable, or more "realistic"? In the absence of any *real* way to wave my hand and make an explosion take place hundreds of yards away, we're in no position to say, based on reality, what's more realistic. I just find it *easier to imagine* this kind of thing happening in a world where this is just how the world works and is part of everyday existence, rather than a world exactly like our own but with this one special black box in it that makes these things occur.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-21-07, 09:35 PM	See, this is what I don't get. Even if there was a dweomerlobe, the things it did would be physically impossible. Nothing about having a special node in your brain makes the kind of transmission of energy arbitrarily over distances plausible at all. It just takes all the impossibility and puts it in one physical box. Why is that really more preferable, or more "realistic"? In the absence of any *real* way to wave my hand and make an explosion take place hundreds of yards away, we're in no position to say, based on reality, what's more realistic. I just find it *easier to imagine* this kind of thing happening in a world where this is just how the world works and is part of everyday existence, rather than a world exactly like our own but with this one special black box in it that makes these things occur. Damn, you made the saving throw already? What's the point of learning Extend Spell if they just get twice as many chances to end the effect early? But in all seriousness, DROP THE STAR WARS DISCUSSIONS. Though it was ArcTan who instigated this off-topic tangent, I am partly responsible and duly apologizing for adding fuel to the fire.
BaseDeltaZero 09-22-07, 07:28 PM	Ignoring the command to stop the Star Wars discussion, I'd just like to note that I (and most of the people on Star Destroyer.net used the justification that a high Midi-Chlorian count was a symptom, not a cause, of force sensitivity). Nothing about having a special node in your brain makes the kind of transmission of energy arbitrarily over distances plausible at all. Thank you. I would just like for Wizards of the Coast to realize this now. (Die psionics, die.)
robertliguori 09-22-07, 08:59 PM	See, this is what I don't get. Even if there was a dweomerlobe, the things it did would be physically impossible. Nothing about having a special node in your brain makes the kind of transmission of energy arbitrarily over distances plausible at all. It just takes all the impossibility and puts it in one physical box. Why is that really more preferable, or more "realistic"? In the absence of any *real* way to wave my hand and make an explosion take place hundreds of yards away, we're in no position to say, based on reality, what's more realistic. I just find it *easier to imagine* this kind of thing happening in a world where this is just how the world works and is part of everyday existence, rather than a world exactly like our own but with this one special black box in it that makes these things occur. Pitiless_Interfector, I agree with ArcTan, and would like to also point out that given the way D&D magic works, this isn't even an effective black box. With so many other types of magic, and so many different ways of harnessing it, such an organ creates more problems than it solves. Moreover, you don't need years of study to become a wizard or a magic-user of any kind. If every single first-level commoner in the game world gained enough XP, then every single person could gain a level of wizard or sorcerer. Also as mentioned above, the concepts and flavor for which you are writing simply do not map to the D&D rules as written. A fair number of people view the rules as starting places, from which you can add your own variants and build your own reality, with rules and interactions in the world that didn't make it into the game. I understand and respect this view, but my own feelings are that rules should define reality. As the rules are written, you are not at risk of insanity or death if you attempt to overextend your arcane power; you simply fail. I think that if you want there to exist the fluff possibility for a wizard misjudging his own capacity and bringing forth a powerful spell, but damaging himself, you should include rules for it (possibly a variant of the Overchannel feat from the Psi side of things, for instance.) I really like your writings. However, (also as has been noted above), you are changing many fundamental rules of the game in your writings.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-22-07, 10:35 PM	See, this is what I don't get. Even if there was a dweomerlobe, the things it did would be physically impossible. Nothing about having a special node in your brain makes the kind of transmission of energy arbitrarily over distances plausible at all. It just takes all the impossibility and puts it in one physical box. Why is that really more preferable, or more "realistic"? In the absence of any *real* way to wave my hand and make an explosion take place hundreds of yards away, we're in no position to say, based on reality, what's more realistic. I just find it *easier to imagine* this kind of thing happening in a world where this is just how the world works and is part of everyday existence, rather than a world exactly like our own but with this one special black box in it that makes these things occur. Yet again, my simple little friend, you have missed the (quite literally) quintessential fact of the matter. The dweomerlobe doesn't make the magic itself, any more than a sailboat makes the wind. A dweomerlobe obeys the fundamental physical law of conservation of energy. It transforms a particular kind of energy (magical energy) into another (or, to put it clearly enough for my detractors, it manipulates the magical energy just enough to form it into a pattern that then interacts with other forces, which is where the actual transformation occurs). The thing that makes magic "magic" is the fact that it obeys a set of equations that would make James Clerk Maxwell's head explode like a frickin' Thool thrall. We don't know what the Grand Unified Theory will look like, but if it doesn't allow for the influence of consciousness (which seems to directly influence [possibly even create] reality through mere observation), it won't be the Theory of Everything (yes, they're two different things. Read the book by that wheelchair guy). In any event, magic is the quintessential force, the pentanumeral complement to the tetrad of electromagnetism, gravity, and the nuclear forces, a force whose equations happen to include numerous clauses that involve consciousness, because consciousness (in most cases) is accompanied by a soul, which is essentially an incredibly complicated pattern of magical energy similar to (but exponentially more complex than even the most planeshaking of) spells. The interaction between the other four forces at work in the brain and the fifth force that comprises the soul is the source of magic for most wizards and sorcerers. Magic in D&D is just as real and physical as the trillions of neutrinos that just blasted through your brain at nearly the speed of light in the time it took you to read this sentence (they could breeze through a trillion miles of lead without hitting anything if they felt like it). However, to avoid incensing you further, I will not bother to christen the fundamental quanta of magical force with a name; the 'theurgon' is better off as a baatezu than a boson. Funny. I guess magic really IS "a knot in [someone's] soul... ...untied by casting a spell". (I think Optimized_Commoner might have some cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device!) And for those of you who still believe "scientifically quantifying" magic is an exercise in futility, need I point out that the way I just described magic could, in fact, be completely real. For that matter, so could everything in this thread. And until you can hold five conversations and three Fourier transforms in your head (or prove that doing so is impossible), you can SHUT the HELL UP!, or move on to fresher, more productive counterarguments than simply claiming this discussion to be pointless (which is NOT a correct argument in any form of logic). Or go back to the 9th grade; I don't give a rat's ass. Absentia probationis absentiam non probat. Si hoc legere potes, futue tuum! And I swear to God, if the Star Wars crap doesn't STOP, I'll ****ing BLOW MY TOP!!!!! :headexplo:headexplo:headexplo:headexplo :headexplo:headexplo:headexplo:headexplo :headexplo:headexplo:headexplo:headexplo :headexplo:headexplo:headexplo:headexplo :headexplo:headexplo:headexplo:headexplo .
Pitiless_Interfector 09-22-07, 11:19 PM	Pitiless_Interfector, I agree with ArcTan, and would like to also point out that given the way D&D magic works, this isn't even an effective black box. With so many other types of magic, and so many different ways of harnessing it, such an organ creates more problems than it solves. Moreover, you don't need years of study to become a wizard or a magic-user of any kind. If every single first-level commoner in the game world gained enough XP, then every single person could gain a level of wizard or sorcerer. Also as mentioned above, the concepts and flavor for which you are writing simply do not map to the D&D rules as written. A fair number of people view the rules as starting places, from which you can add your own variants and build your own reality, with rules and interactions in the world that didn't make it into the game. I understand and respect this view, but my own feelings are that rules should define reality. As the rules are written, you are not at risk of insanity or death if you attempt to overextend your arcane power; you simply fail. I think that if you want there to exist the fluff possibility for a wizard misjudging his own capacity and bringing forth a powerful spell, but damaging himself, you should include rules for it (possibly a variant of the Overchannel feat from the Psi side of things, for instance.) I really like your writings. However, (also as has been noted above), you are changing many fundamental rules of the game in your writings. No, I am not. Any commoner can gain enough XP to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, but if they don't have Int 10 or Cha 10, they're not going to do jack. And more importantly, how many commoners actually take levels of wizard or sorcerer? The numbers are so low that they become the exception that proves the rule. How many real people earned masters degrees at age 12? Michael (& Maeghan) Kearney (both half-Japanese, BTW), Tathagat Avatar Tulsi... yeah, the rest is all MySpace pages. (cl ICK!). There you go; those commoners are just naturally gifted enough to pick up magic in their adult years despite having spent their childhood as dirt-farming pig handlers. And there's no rule that says "if you attempt to cast a spell when you have no spells left, you fail," because the players all understand (what with their keeping track of the spells on their character sheet) that the DM's answer will be "No (and on repeated offenses, "are you ****ing kidding me?"). Thus, there is no rule that says you can't, just like there's no rule that says you can't simply get back up again after being killed by hit point damage inside an antimagic field, because the game rules understand that even if somebody's dumb enough to try it, their DM will say no. And furthermore, using the rules to define reality is logically self-referential, because the players define the rules. Thus, the DM and the players together define the reality of the game. The rules were not written to be played in a vacuum; they (like all games) require human intervention. In short, you have added your name to a rapidly growing list of people who seem cognitively incapable of changing their mind (colloquially known as "asshoIes), yet strangely insist on taking part in a forum founded on the principles of open discussion. Hah! "Rapidly growing." Christ, you people are coming out of the woodwork. (I knew I should have kept a closer eye on that scroll of Chained Heightened feeblemind.)
robertliguori 09-22-07, 11:53 PM	*sighs* Card syndome. A bad case, if ever I've seen one. Pitiless_Interfector, you appear to be missing a few fundamental points in this discussion. This is not your homebrew D&D-based game. This is not your novel. This is the Internet. You are a poster. You are not the DM, or the storyteller, or the author. You do not get to dictate how things are in D&D. At best, you can speculate as to how things might or should be. You really do not get to dictate how things are in reality. ArcTan is not your simple little friend. Writing that he is doesn't make him so; it shows you to be needlessly condescending and abrasive. When you tell him to shut up and go away, he gets to laugh at your rather juvenile insults and remind you that anger leads to hate, which leads to suffering, which leads to the Dark Side of the Force. As to your follow-up statements: Science is not a body of facts like E=MC^2 and the atomic number of cesium. Science is a method of observing the universe, making predictions, and testing and refining them. If magic exists and can be demonstrated, then science can be applied to it, and vast swathes of our current understanding of the universe evaporate. If magic doesn't exist, or exists but cannot be applied (no actual observable supernatural effects happen ever), then you can't apply science to it, and there is no practical difference between magic existing and not existing. Also, at no point did you actually come near to ArcTan's point; why is the nature of magic such that a lobe is necessary for (some) wizards to cast spells, but not sorcerors, binders, warlocks, clerics, gnomes and their spell-like abilities, etc.? If all of those creatures can just be magic in an unidentified way, why can't humans? Why can't everyone and everything simply be magic? And what the heck does the ability to hold multiple conversations and do multiple math problems in your head have to do with correctness? Are you attempting to argue that magic could exist, but we're just not smart enough to perceive it? Well, I can address that theory straightaway. .... OK, I have failed to invoke Pazuzu and transform myself into a kobold (and subsequently assume mastery over everything.) I have therefore demonstrated that magic, as published in the set of D&D materials, is in some areas at least partially incomplete, or does not apply to our universe; if you wish claim that it is partially complete or partially accurate, you are more than welcome to attempt to so demonstrate. Oh, yes, as a final point: I can't speak for the rest of the people here, but I have Google. Posting Latin taglines strikes me personally as a shibboleth annoying as it is useless. Or: Absence of evidence when evidence is logically necessary is evidence of absence, and absence of evidence when evidence is logically impossible is not only the default, but not worth examining, because there is no actual difference between presence and absence. ...Oh, look, you responded to me. No, I am not. Any commoner can gain enough XP to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, but if they don't have Int 10 or Cha 10, they're not going to do jack. And more importantly, how many commoners actually take levels of wizard or sorcerer? The numbers are so low that they become the exception that proves the rule. Oh...dear...god. You have the smug, self-satisfied temerity to post Latin taglines at the end of your posts, to insult the intelligence of other posters, and you go and write this? Have the gods of irony have no mercy? Are you perhaps unaware that the phrase 'exception that proves the rule' is a bastardization, closer rendered as 'It's the exception that proves the rule wrong?' Moreover, what the C:-drive-fscking hell use is a rule like "Wizards develop a special node that lets them use magic through intense study...except the ones who don't."? Since you appear to be having trouble with advanced concepts of the English, allow me to give you a helping hand; the previous was a rhetorical question, and the answer is 'None.' If it's of no use, and isn't considered generally flavorful or adding to the enjoyment of the game, then it's not much good as a rule. If you like it, well, feel free to keep it. The rest of us don't, and won't. Also, how rare are Int-10 people anyway? You only need to be Int-10 to cast cantrips; this is being of average intelligence. How many real people earned masters degrees at age 12? Michael (& Maeghan) Kearney (both half-Japanese, BTW), Tathagat Avatar Tulsi... yeah, the rest is all MySpace pages. (clICK!). There you go; those commoners are just naturally gifted enough to pick up magic in their adult years despite having spent their childhood as dirt-farming pig handlers. Look, are you arguing for D&D magic or aren't you? If you are, it's fairly obvious and trivial to disprove. If you are arguing for your own system, based solely on what you've said...well, extraordinary claims and all that. And there's no rule that says "if you attempt to cast a spell when you have no spells left, you fail," because the players all understand (what with their keeping track of the spells on their character sheet) that the DM's answer will be "No (and on repeated offenses, "are you ****ing kidding me?"). Thus, there is no rule that says you can't, just like there's no rule that says you can't simply get back up again after being killed by hit point damage inside an antimagic field, because the game rules understand that even if somebody's dumb enough to try it, their DM will say no. And furthermore, using the rules to define reality is logically self-referential, because the players define the rules. Thus, the DM and the players together define the reality of the game. The rules were not written to be played in a vacuum; they (like all games) require human intervention. Uh...yes. I agree that there is no literal rule stating that you can't cast a spell when you're out of spells, because it's implied in the Vanican spell system of fire-and-forget. My point (which you may want to consider addressing) is that you included, in your fluff, the possibility of real, game-measurable consequences for an undefined act. If it is possible to achieve dramatic (in the story and the of-great-effect sense) results by performing a certain action, and you want a gaming system, then you should document the action, its results, and its consequences in rules. There are no rules for dying or going insane from failing to cast a spell; if you want this to be a possibility, you should include rules for it. (Or admit 'I am the storyteller; things happen solely because I decide they should be so, with only the vaguest recourse towards internal consistency and even less towards the documented D&D rules.) In short, you have added your name to a rapidly growing list of people who seem cognitively incapable of changing their mind (colloquially known as "asshoIes), yet strangely insist on taking part in a forum founded on the principles of open discussion. Hah! "Rapidly growing." Christ, you people are coming out of the woodwork. (I knew I should have kept a closer eye on that scroll of Chained Heightenedfeeblemind.) ... Congratulations, sir; the use of the capital I in the word 'asshoIe' above is an excellent (if not particularly socially-accepted or appreciated by the mods) way of communicating despite obstacles in the medium (to wit, a word-filter.) That being said, if you would like to change people's mind, you might perhaps have better luck cutting down on the verbiage and the formatting and perhaps including a bit of actual content in your posts. Who knows, you might even go wild and address a point. The sky's the limit! Or, you could continue to post in this vein, at which point people who disagree with you not changing their minds will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just IMO. Also, in case anyone hasn't heard the term: Card syndome describes the malady common to many authors and creative types who get so used to writing about beautiful, complex fictional worlds that they forget that reality isn't one of them, and that they can't actually change the way reality works by writing it so. The premier example is Orson Scott Card; read some of his recent essays for a rather sad look at someone who really, really wants the world to be a certain way, and is trying to make it so just by assuming it is.
BaseDeltaZero 09-23-07, 12:13 AM	I agree with Robert. And what the heck does the ability to hold multiple conversations and do multiple math problems in your head have to do with correctness? Are you attempting to argue that magic could exist, but we're just not smart enough to perceive it? He's saying that's what's needed to become a wizard. Frankly, that's asking a lot. The minimum INT to cast spells is 10, not 30. Pitiless, you seem to be arguing that in order to become a wizard, you need to do impossible things, and therefore, that's why magic doesn't work, even though it actually does (i.e, no one can use it even though it exists in the real world). Okay, what the hell. D&D magic does NOT work in the real world. In any event, magic is the quintessential force, the pentanumeral complement to the tetrad of electromagnetism, gravity, and the nuclear forces, a force whose equations happen to include numerous clauses that involve consciousness, because consciousness (in most cases) is accompanied by a soul, which is essentially an incredibly complicated pattern of magical energy similar to (but exponentially more complex than even the most planeshaking of) spells. Wow. That sounds like something I would say... No, I am not. Any commoner can gain enough XP to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, but if they don't have Int 10 or Cha 10, they're not going to do jack. And more importantly, how many commoners actually take levels of wizard or sorcerer? The numbers are so low that they become the exception that proves the rule. Enough that there are significant numbers of sorcerors and wizards... as there are no examples of multiclass commoner/Xs, even in cases where someone learned their skills later in life, it's safe to say it overrides it. I.E - you're a commoner until you're something else. Also, most people would be able to cast spells of some type, because odds are one of their mental ability scores is above 10. How many real people earned masters degrees at age 12? Michael (& Maeghan) Kearney (both half-Japanese, BTW), Tathagat Avatar Tulsi... yeah, the rest is all MySpace pages. (clICK!). And look! He's a racist, too! I'm also detecting just a hint of elitism. Maybe I should start my own thread... Also, Star Wars.
ArcTan 09-23-07, 12:46 AM	Thank you. I would just like for Wizards of the Coast to realize this now. (Die psionics, die.) Well, psionics isn't caused by a "special lobe in the brain" either -- an ordinary person can take a level of Psion as easily as they can take a level of Wizard or Sorcerer, by strict RAW. That aside, it's no more impossible than Magic, or, really, *different* from magic. It's just different flavor for what is essentially the same concept.
ArcTan 09-23-07, 12:50 AM	No, I am not. Any commoner can gain enough XP to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, but if they don't have Int 10 or Cha 10, they're not going to do jack. Int 10 or Cha 10, by the way, is average. Int 11 -- the minimum necessary to cast a 1st-level spell -- is slightly above average, not the ability to do Fourier transformations in your head or visualize 5-space or whatever it is you're trying to claim it is. Whatever the dweomerlobe is, it has no RAW-based existence -- no rules are affected by assuming it doesn't exist, that is. Nothing prevents me from having 11 Int and taking one level of Wizard and being able to cast shield. Indeed, this is how certain gish builds work. (Keith Baker's description of the Valenar Elves in Eberron, for instance, says most of them are Fighters who take one level of Wizard so they can use buffs like shield and true strike. Not the most optimal multiclassing option, but certainly viable, and doesn't require that your Int be any higher than 11.)
ArcTan 09-23-07, 12:57 AM	We don't know what the Grand Unified Theory will look like, but if it doesn't allow for the influence of consciousness (which seems to directly influence [possibly even create] reality through mere observation), it won't be the Theory of Everything (yes, they're two different things. Read the book by that wheelchair guy). That's a very common misinterpretation of the Copenhagen interpretation, and Stephen Hawking would roll over your toes in his wheelchair for promoting it (and for calling in "that wheelchair guy"). *Consciousness* does not collapse waveforms. *Measurement* does. The measurement can be done by purely unconscious entities -- all that needs to happen is for the system to interact with another system (which is all "measuring" is -- the electron leaves a traceable trail through a medium, etc.) In any event, magic is the quintessential force, the pentanumeral complement to the tetrad of electromagnetism, gravity, and the nuclear forces, a force whose equations happen to include numerous clauses that involve consciousness, because consciousness (in most cases) is accompanied by a soul, which is essentially an incredibly complicated pattern of magical energy similar to (but exponentially more complex than even the most planeshaking of) spells. While I certainly can't do Fourier transformations in my head, I know enough about physics to say that while this all sounds cool, it's essentially meaningless. It's essentially meaningless in the same way as saying that midi-chlorians are the "source of all our energy" is meaningless as a way to explain the Force, or saying that the X-men are the "next step in evolution" was meaningless as a way to explain their powers. I mean, if it makes you feel better to use lots of crunchy (thematically inappropriate) Greek and Latin-based words and make reference to real-life scientists to describe magic in your games, go ahead. It doesn't work for me. And nothing at all is intrinsically "better" about it. And for those of you who still believe "scientifically quantifying" magic is an exercise in futility, need I point out that the way I just described magic could, in fact, be completely real. The moment they start saying "Magic could be real! It could be happening all around us! How do *you* know I don't have magic powers?!" you know you're in trouble. (I don't know what my Intelligence score is, but I'm betting it's higher than 11. I'm betting, moreover, that Professor Stephen Hawking's is higher than 15. However, neither I nor Dr. Hawking can cast spells of any level. Therefore D&D magic does not work the way D&D magic says it does in our world, because D&D magic does *not* require an Int of 30 to function.)
BaseDeltaZero 09-23-07, 12:59 AM	Why is that really more preferable, or more "realistic"? In the absence of any *real* way to wave my hand and make an explosion take place hundreds of yards away, we're in no position to say, based on reality, what's more realistic. I just find it *easier to imagine* this kind of thing happening in a world where this is just how the world works and is part of everyday existence, rather than a world exactly like our own but with this one special black box in it that makes these things occur. This is what I mean. It's one thing to say a wizard can make major stuff happen by manipulating outside forces through concentration and the power of his mind. It's another to say a psion can do the same through the millijoule of energy in his actual brain, without any outside influence.
ArcTan 09-23-07, 01:12 AM	This is what I mean. It's one thing to say a wizard can make major stuff happen by manipulating outside forces through concentration and the power of his mind. It's another to say a psion can do the same through the millijoule of energy in his actual brain, without any outside influence. So, instead, say a Psion does it through concentration and the power of his mind. Nothing about D&D 3.5 Psionics' flavor actually says the actual millijoule of actual energy in the Psion's brain has anything to do with it. The Psion uses the "power of her mind". The Wizard manipulates the "forces of magic". Whatever. It's the same thing. The flavor for both is intentionally very vague. Only in setting-specific materials do we have attempts at providing an ultimate source for either kind of power, and then it's also all vague, mythological stuff. (FR says that a Psion is someone who has learned to create a local Weave around themselves rather than tapping into the Weave of Mystra. I mean, whatever.) The fact that the Wizard has to wave his hands around, say some nonsense syllables and possibly eat a spider doesn't actually make his powers more realistic than the Psion's because the Psion just stands there and thinks really hard.
BaseDeltaZero 09-23-07, 01:34 AM	So, instead, say a Psion does it through concentration and the power of his mind. Nothing about D&D 3.5 Psionics' flavor actually says the actual millijoule of actual energy in the Psion's brain has anything to do with it. The Psion uses the "power of her mind". The Wizard manipulates the "forces of magic". Whatever. It's the same thing. The flavor for both is intentionally very vague. Only in setting-specific materials do we have attempts at providing an ultimate source for either kind of power, and then it's also all vague, mythological stuff. (FR says that a Psion is someone who has learned to create a local Weave around themselves rather than tapping into the Weave of Mystra. I mean, whatever.) The fact that the Wizard has to wave his hands around, say some nonsense syllables and possibly eat a spider doesn't actually make his powers more realistic than the Psion's because the Psion just stands there and thinks really hard. I actually like the 'just stand there and think really hard' approach better than the silly magic components - why, if you read my writings, I try my best to minimize them. I would have said the wizard uses the power of his mind anyways, so when I saw the psionic description, I basically assumed they were trying to make it a 'pure physical' kind of thing, which is an affront to thermodynamics (magic is silly, but it's not that silly). However, I still don't like the division - if psionics works exactly the same as magic, why isn't it considered part of magic. The pretentious faux-'technical' names for powers are somehow more pretentious than the just plain pretentious names of Spells or Techniques (somehow, 'Vengeful Gaze of God' or 'Crashing Mountain Strike' just sounds better than 'Metafaculty', and of course, crystals are cool, but it seems like a pathetic attempt to appeal to 'new-age' junkies. Also, Psicrystals are lame, as are the various psionic items. (A power crystal which is a scroll, a dorje which is a wand, a psicrown which is a staff... ugh). Also, the Weave is sensible, except for how it's in Forgotten Realms.
ArcTan 09-23-07, 03:36 AM	If you want my real opinion about what Psionics actually is, it's that it's a much better magic system than Core, simply because the mechanics were designed from the ground up and therefore felt free to shed all of the stupid sacred cows of Core. (No "memorization" or "preparation", points rather than slots, etc.) However, because they couldn't actually *replace* the core system, they instead had to come up with some flavor justification for why "psionics" was different from "magic", so they seized on the word "psionics" and extrapolated from there. (Really, that's it. The fact that there already was such a thing as "psionics" in earlier editions is irrelevant, since 3e Psionics bears as much resemblance to 2e Psionics as 3e Vampires bear to Vampires from Vampire: the Masquerade.) The fact that we have to pretend D&D is all one system and never infringe on "core" is why we have the silly parallel terminology ("manifesting powers" instead of "casting spells", "dorjes" rather than "wands", etc.) It's the exact same reason the Tome of Battle class had to have a stupid name like "Warblade" instead of a regular name like "Fighter" -- because "Fighter" was taken. In any case, Psionics' flavor doesn't bother me that much. I mean, yes, reality revision is a worse name than wish -- but wish was taken. And it's not like people in specialized disciplines in real life *don't* use gobbledygook to describe what they do just because they can. I myself don't think of New Age magic as fundamentally worse than pseudo-medieval "fantasy" magic -- I mean, more people seem to actually seriously believe in the former, which means you have a comparatively richer tradition of real-life sources to draw on for verisimilitude. I dunno about you, but I think the fact that "reddopsi" is a real thing in real-world parapsychology makes the term just slightly cooler.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-23-07, 04:32 PM	*sighs* Card syndome. A bad case, if ever I've seen one. Pitiless_Interfector, you appear to be missing a few fundamental points in this discussion. This is not your homebrew D&D-based game. This is not your novel. This is the Internet. You are a poster. You are not the DM, or the storyteller, or the author. You do not get to dictate how things are in D&D. At best, you can speculate as to how things might or should be. You really do not get to dictate how things are in reality. ArcTan is not your simple little friend. Writing that he is doesn't make him so; it shows you to be needlessly condescending and abrasive. When you tell him to shut up and go away, he gets to laugh at your rather juvenile insults and remind you that anger leads to hate, which leads to suffering, which leads to the Dark Side of the Force. As to your follow-up statements: Science is not a body of facts like E=MC^2 and the atomic number of cesium. Science is a method of observing the universe, making predictions, and testing and refining them. If magic exists and can be demonstrated, then science can be applied to it, and vast swathes of our current understanding of the universe evaporate. If magic doesn't exist, or exists but cannot be applied (no actual observable supernatural effects happen ever), then you can't apply science to it, and there is no practical difference between magic existing and not existing. Also, at no point did you actually come near to ArcTan's point; why is the nature of magic such that a lobe is necessary for (some) wizards to cast spells, but not sorcerors, binders, warlocks, clerics, gnomes and their spell-like abilities, etc.? If all of those creatures can just be magic in an unidentified way, why can't humans? Why can't everyone and everything simply be magic? And what the heck does the ability to hold multiple conversations and do multiple math problems in your head have to do with correctness? Are you attempting to argue that magic could exist, but we're just not smart enough to perceive it? Well, I can address that theory straightaway. .... OK, I have failed to invoke Pazuzu and transform myself into a kobold (and subsequently assume mastery over everything.) I have therefore demonstrated that magic, as published in the set of D&D materials, is in some areas at least partially incomplete, or does not apply to our universe; if you wish claim that it is partially complete or partially accurate, you are more than welcome to attempt to so demonstrate. Oh, yes, as a final point: I can't speak for the rest of the people here, but I have Google. Posting Latin taglines strikes me personally as a shibboleth annoying as it is useless. Or: Absence of evidence when evidence is logically necessary is evidence of absence, and absence of evidence when evidence is logically impossible is not only the default, but not worth examining, because there is no actual difference between presence and absence. ...Oh, look, you responded to me. Oh...dear...god. You have the smug, self-satisfied temerity to post Latin taglines at the end of your posts, to insult the intelligence of other posters, and you go and write this? Have the gods of irony have no mercy? (Have the teachers of English have not made they're effected on you?) Are you perhaps unaware that the phrase 'exception that proves the rule' is a bastardization, closer rendered as 'It's the exception that proves the rule wrong?' Moreover, what the C:-drive-fscking hell use is a rule like "Wizards develop a special node that lets them use magic through intense study...except the ones who don't."? Since you appear to be having trouble with advanced concepts of the English, allow me to give you a helping hand; the previous was a rhetorical question, and the answer is 'None.' If it's of no use, and isn't considered generally flavorful or adding to the enjoyment of the game, then it's not much good as a rule. If you like it, well, feel free to keep it. The rest of us don't, and won't. Also, how rare are Int-10 people anyway? You only need to be Int-10 to cast cantrips; this is being of average intelligence. Look, are you arguing for D&D magic or aren't you? If you are, it's fairly obvious and trivial to disprove. If you are arguing for your own system, based solely on what you've said...well, extraordinary claims and all that. Uh...yes. I agree that there is no literal rule stating that you can't cast a spell when you're out of spells, because it's implied in the Vanican spell system of fire-and-forget. My point (which you may want to consider addressing) is that you included, in your fluff, the possibility of real, game-measurable consequences for an undefined act. If it is possible to achieve dramatic (in the story and the of-great-effect sense) results by performing a certain action, and you want a gaming system, then you should document the action, its results, and its consequences in rules. There are no rules for dying or going insane from failing to cast a spell; if you want this to be a possibility, you should include rules for it. (Or admit 'I am the storyteller; things happen solely because I decide they should be so, with only the vaguest recourse towards internal consistency and even less towards the documented D&D rules.) ... Congratulations, sir; the use of the capital I in the word 'asshoIe' above is an excellent (if not particularly socially-accepted or appreciated by the mods) way of communicating despite obstacles in the medium (to wit, a word-filter.) That being said, if you would like to change people's mind, you might perhaps have better luck cutting down on the verbiage and the formatting and perhaps including a bit of actual content in your posts. Who knows, you might even go wild and address a point. The sky's the limit! Or, you could continue to post in this vein, at which point people who disagree with you not changing their minds will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just IMO. Also, in case anyone hasn't heard the term: Card syndome describes the malady common to many authors and creative types who get so used to writing about beautiful, complex fictional worlds that they forget that reality isn't one of them, and that they can't actually change the way reality works by writing it so. The premier example is Orson Scott Card; read some of his recent essays for a rather sad look at someone who really, really wants the world to be a certain way, and is trying to make it so just by assuming it is. Ah, yes. The chickens have come home to roost, in the form of a homunculus asinus who thinks it's okay to berate me in a condescending and abrasive manner for being condescending and abrasive, thinking he has the high moral ground because "he thought of it first". YOU are not God. You have no rank--divine, military, administrative, or otherwise--nor are you DM, storyteller, admin, author, or anything else. Since I know you have Google, I will not point out that you did not know what "interfector" meant last week, because it will be as impossible to prove as your point. (BTW, saying that I'm "not addressing your point" is logically equivalent to saying "this is pointless," which is NOT a logical statement ID!]) Yet another case of someone thinking he gets to speak for everyone because the surfeit of time to think and lack of a need for physical face-to-face contact actually gives him balls. "Sinking to the lowest common denominator" (or whatever condescending and belittling term you employ to describe conversing with me) is NOT a way to prove you are right. Your willingness to berate me for my "juvenile" tactics by employing "juvenile" tactics of your own simply proves you are no better than me, and thus whatever dark orifice you've been pulling your rebuttals from is obviously a portal to the Far Realm (whose proximity to your brain has resulted in the numerous cognitive errors, biases, and misjudgments you have thus demonstrated). And as you insist on bringing in unrelated tangents, I am utterly bewildered by your refusal to mention Harry Potter. Or, seeing as how you aren't clever or creative enough to create a worldview as complex or detailed as mine, you simply didn't think of it. In case you haven't noticed, anything can be said by anyone and the only way to make people believe what you believe if they don't want to believe is to beat it into them with a big pointy stick. In the absence of any physical way to do this (though the fact that your UserID is 'robertliguori' seems a good starting point; I have Google too), most mature posters simply make the right decision and stop making asses of themselves. And the Pazuzu example is ab homino probatum; FYHE, the actions of an intelligent entity do not constitute a viable logical rebuttal. Didn't it occur to you that Pazuzu might not like pretentious asshoIes like you? You know, he can use detect thoughts on you for 2 minutes if you attempt to call him). Ego caelipotens sum! Specta me, quod imperator omnibus sum! Deus solus sum! Futute te! Hahahae!
robertliguori 09-23-07, 09:38 PM	Ah, yes. The chickens have come home to roost, in the form of a homunculus asinus who thinks it's okay to berate me in a condescending and abrasive manner for being condescending and abrasive, thinking he has the high moral ground because "he thought of it first". YOU are not God. You have no rank--divine, military, administrative, or otherwise--nor are you DM, storyteller, admin, author, or anything else. Since I know you have Google, I will not point out that you did not know what "interfector" meant last week, because it will be as impossible to prove as your point. (BTW, saying that I'm "not addressing your point" is logically equivalent to saying "this is pointless," which is NOT a logical statement ID!]) Actually, I still don't know what Interfector means. Also, I am mildly curious how you managed to parse "You are not addressing my points." into "This is pointless." And yes, I'm not making a counterargument when I point out that you're not addressing our points. In order for me to make a counterargument, you need to be arguing. An argument, from arguer, means to debate and discuss and persuade by reason. In that vein; I feel that the inclusion of study-generated brain lobes in humans is neither in vein with the general flavor of D&D magic, necessary in a universe which features D&D everything-including-the-kitchen-sink style of magic, nor inherently more reasonable for a brain lobe to access magic than it would be for the entire brain (or, rather, for the mind) to access said magic. D&D magic, as noted, pays only the vaguest attention to anatomy as a necessity. Certain creatures (notably aberrations) monkey with it, and thus have it in great detail; other creatures (such as magical beasts) get along with only vague amounts of it, and many creatures such as elementals and undead exist without it. Anatomy is therefore not necessary for D&D magic. In addition, the explicit rules of D&D are such that you are not your body. If a non-caster, even a non-caster with the requisite Int magic-jars into the body of a wizard, said creature can't now memorize new spells (at least by default rules). In summary, if you use the existing rules, there is no gap in the existing ruleset requiring the inclusion of such a brain-lobe, the inclusion of such a rule would introduce many new complications that would need to be resolved against the existing D&D rules, and many of us simply don't like the idea. If you'd like to address any of these points, feel free; you are of course welcome to declare that you don't care how I (or others) feel and continue writing. Yet another case of someone thinking he gets to speak for everyone because the surfeit of time to think and lack of a need for physical face-to-face contact actually gives him balls. As mentioned, I'm a programmer. Style above substance in communication grates at me. You have style in almost all of your posts. You have substance in most of your posts. Those posts of yours that have style but no substance grate at me. Obviously, ArcTan and others are more than capable of speaking for themselves. "Sinking to the lowest common denominator" (or whatever condescending and belittling term you employ to describe conversing with me) is NOT a way to prove you are right. Your willingness to berate me for my "juvenile" tactics by employing "juvenile" tactics of your own simply proves you are no better than me, and thus whatever dark orifice you've been pulling your rebuttals from is obviously a portal to the Far Realm (whose proximity to your brain has resulted in the numerous cognitive errors, biases, and misjudgments you have thus demonstrated). Uh...OK. Where I'm from, it's considered good form to, if you're going to accuse someone of numerous cognitive errors, biases, and misjudgments, it helps when you include examples thereof. When you're accused of not replying to the substance of someone's arguments, it's generally a good idea to, in your reply, specifically emphasize the way in which you address your challenger's points. Claiming 'numerous' errors without naming any of them is not a winning strategy in the convincing-thinking-people department. And as you insist on bringing in unrelated tangents, I am utterly bewildered by your refusal to mention Harry Potter. Or, seeing as how you aren't clever or creative enough to create a worldview as complex or detailed as mine, you simply didn't think of it. ...OK, I'm using my lifeline. Would someone please help me parse this out into something resembling English? Am I being accused of refusing to mention Harry Potter because I didn't mention him? OK. The Potterverse exists. It's at odds with both your magic system and D&D magic systems. Didn't really see the relavence. Perhaps you're accusing me of bringing in unrelated tangents? Well, feel free to name them, if so; again, the fact that you've written that I've done so doesn't mean that I have. Finally, there is the fairly out-of-left-field statement about my own level of cleverness or creativity. I'm going to need some help with this statement, too; I'm not seeing how the conclusion follows from the premises, nor on what basis the premises are assumed. In case you haven't noticed, anything can be said by anyone and the only way to make people believe what you believe if they don't want to believe is to beat it into them with a big pointy stick. In the absence of any physical way to do this (though the fact that your UserID is 'robertliguori' seems a good starting point; I have Google too), most mature posters simply make the right decision and stop making asses of themselves. Well, yes. I'm not trying to force you to believe that the dwemerlobe is a bad idea. I'm just arguing for why I think so. And the Pazuzu example is ab homino probatum; FYHE, the actions of an intelligent entity do not constitute a viable logical rebuttal. Didn't it occur to you that Pazuzu might not like pretentious asshoIes like you? You know, he can use detect thoughts on you for 2 minutes if you attempt to call him). Ooh, you put the capital I in Arial this time. Elegantly done. And insomuch as the actions of an intelligent entity are documented and part of a rules system, yes, they can be used to disprove the rules system. It is documented that Pazuzu 'almost always' provides aid. If a statistically-significant percentage of the times Pazuzu is invoked by non-CE folk, he does not provide aid, then the description of the Su ability Temptation is inaccurate in our world. It doesn't matter that Pazuzu might actually exist, and simply be choosing not to appear every time; if you can't trust his write-up, you have no reason for assuming so. Come to that, also as mentioned, as you are the one making the extraordinary claim (magic exists in human-exploitable form). If you want to claim that magic could exist, but we wouldn't know it because no one is smart enough to access it or perceive it, well, you are welcome to do so. Ego caelipotens sum! Specta me, quod imperator omnibus sum! Deus solus sum! Futute te! Hahahae! ...... You know, let's see this post again, in instant-replay mode. ...mature posters simply make the right decision and stop making asses of themselves. Yet another case of someone thinking he gets to speak for everyone because the surfeit of time to think and lack of a need for physical face-to-face contact actually gives him balls. Didn't it occur to you that Pazuzu might not like pretentious asshoIes like you? Or, seeing as how you aren't clever or creative enough to create a worldview as complex or detailed as mine... ...and thus whatever dark orifice you've been pulling your rebuttals from is obviously a portal to the Far Realm (whose proximity to your brain has resulted in the numerous cognitive errors, biases, and misjudgments you have thus demonstrated). Futute te! Hahahae! I really have nothing to add to this.
Silver_Bulette 09-23-07, 10:04 PM	Interfectie... Robbie... you are both in the wrong. By responding to each other's mistakes with scathing insults, you are just fueling the engines of each other's war machines. Let's agree to disagree about the inner workings of a magical fantasy world, alright? Oh, and do not bother retaliating to this message. I have given up reading this once interesting thread that has become a wasteland of a flame war. Goodbye.
strange_person 09-23-07, 10:14 PM	Interfectie... Robbie... you are both in the wrong. By responding to each other's mistakes with scathing insults, you are just fueling the engines of each other's war machines. Let's agree to disagree about the inner workings of a magical fantasy world, alright? Oh, and do not bother retaliating to this message. I have given up reading this once interesting thread that has become a wasteland of a flame war. Goodbye. Seconded.
xXOblivionXx 09-24-07, 09:27 AM	Interfectie... Robbie... you are both in the wrong. By responding to each other's mistakes with scathing insults, you are just fueling the engines of each other's war machines. Let's agree to disagree about the inner workings of a magical fantasy world, alright? Thirded?
Auorix 09-24-07, 04:43 PM	Interfectie... Robbie... you are both in the wrong. By responding to each other's mistakes with scathing insults, you are just fueling the engines of each other's war machines. Let's agree to disagree about the inner workings of a magical fantasy world, alright? Oh, and do not bother retaliating to this message. I have given up reading this once interesting thread that has become a wasteland of a flame war. Goodbye. Least fourthed sounds good :) But seriously...please end the heated discussion. I enjoy the flavor and creativity that Pitiless has provided us. I do not like the fact that they are rattled so quickly by some posting here. I hope that Pitiless can move past that/ignore it and continue the creative works. I wont stop reading this threat...but will likely be skipping the trash talking...no matter how intelligent the arguements are and how well they are written from both sides... Some dont like the dweomerlobe story, but even if its wrong (opinion) please just let Pitiless be creative and not try to derail them with unconstructive posts.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-24-07, 06:53 PM	That's a very common misinterpretation of the Copenhagen interpretation, and Stephen Hawking would roll over your toes in his wheelchair for promoting it (and for calling in "that wheelchair guy"). *Consciousness* does not collapse waveforms. *Measurement* does. The measurement can be done by purely unconscious entities -- all that needs to happen is for the system to interact with another system (which is all "measuring" is -- the electron leaves a traceable trail through a medium, etc.) And there is no way to prove that the measurement has taken place unless a conscious entity examines the consequences of the measurement. I could even go so far as to say that only your observation of the measurement collapses the waveform because you have no logical reason for believing what other people tell you about their measurements, but that might be going a bit too far. (No wonder everybody's arguing whether intelligence has survival value; the only things keeping us from dissolving into solipsistic crackpots are sex and religion).
robertliguori 09-24-07, 07:16 PM	Uh, I am not a physicist, but isn't the Copenhagen interpretation a statement concerning the way our universe is organized, as opposed to an inherent fact therein? I mean, I was taught that most of what we consider quantum effects are simply our inability to operate in a nanoscale environment non-destructively. That is to say, if the only way you can observe a system is to change it, you can't make perfectly accurate observations about it, and if you can only observe a system by changing it drastically, then your ability to measure multiple attributes of the system is limited. However, this is simply a reflection of the fact that we have no non-destructive (in the informational sense) way of measuring the position and velocity of subatomic particles simultaneously. This isn't to say that the particles don't actually exist, or that a perfect/magical observer couldn't do so; simply that we, constrained by the current limits of our tools. I'd also point out that in science, you indeed can't prove that a measurement has taken place. In science, you can't prove (in the logical sense) anything at all; all you can do is simply demonstrate a preponderance of evidence, accept it as a good-enough theory until contradictory evidence, and leave the solipsistic crackpots to nutter about Descartes's garden until they get bored.
ArcTan 09-24-07, 09:14 PM	And there is no way to prove that the measurement has taken place unless a conscious entity examines the consequences of the measurement. ...Well, no way to prove it to a conscious entity. But so what? This has nothing to do with quantum physics anymore -- it's the case of *everything* that no specific observation can be proven to a conscious entity observes it -- indeed, until *that specific conscious entity* observes it. In this sense, quantum observations are no different from classical observations. The difference is that quantum observations change what is observed, sure -- but that's something inherent *to the act of observation*, not to the act of observation being "proven" to a conscious entity. I could even go so far as to say that only your observation of the measurement collapses the waveform because you have no logical reason for believing what other people tell you about their measurements, but that might be going a bit too far. (No wonder everybody's arguing whether intelligence has survival value; the only things keeping us from dissolving into solipsistic crackpots are sex and religion). Well, this is why I increasingly think stuff about "collapsing the waveform" is dumb and creates more philosophical problems than it solves, and that I'd rather use the Everett many-worlds interpretation if I'm going to bother to have any interpretation at all. All the possible measurements are *there* -- "collapsing the waveform" is just a way to talk about which particular measurement you happen to see.
ArcTan 09-24-07, 09:19 PM	Uh, I am not a physicist, but isn't the Copenhagen interpretation a statement concerning the way our universe is organized, as opposed to an inherent fact therein? I mean, I was taught that most of what we consider quantum effects are simply our inability to operate in a nanoscale environment non-destructively. That is to say, if the only way you can observe a system is to change it, you can't make perfectly accurate observations about it, and if you can only observe a system by changing it drastically, then your ability to measure multiple attributes of the system is limited. However, this is simply a reflection of the fact that we have no non-destructive (in the informational sense) way of measuring the position and velocity of subatomic particles simultaneously. This isn't to say that the particles don't actually exist, or that a perfect/magical observer couldn't do so; simply that we, constrained by the current limits of our tools. Some physicists once thought that the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle was just a result of instrumentation error -- that it was nothing but the physical by-product of problems with our tools. A lot of lay explanations of quantum mechanics say this, but they're incorrect. Physicists lay that interpretation to rest a long time ago. Instrumentation error can't explain most of the things that actually do happen when waveforms actually do collapse. You really can have an electron that really does appear as a waveform that interferes with itself and, for instance, passes through both slits in a two-slit experiment. The old "Maybe our instruments knock the electron around!" argument doesn't hold for that. Einstein, who was very very offended by the philosophical implications of quantum physics, proposed the EPR experiment precisely to overthrow it. The EPR experiment simply proposed that if you had two particles interact, and then measured only the position of one and measured the velocity of the other, you could extrapolate the position of particle B from the position of particle A, and the velocity of particle A from the velocity of particle B, and get a complete description of both particles, in violation of Heisenberg, using simple deductive reasoning. He was wrong. Measuring particle A perturbs particle B *anyway*, even though there is no direct connection between the two anymore. This is what is known as quantum "entanglement", is one of the most counterintuitive and cool things to come out of quantum physics, and throws for a loop the whole idea that the quantum world is a world just like our own that we simply have trouble seeing.
Auorix 09-25-07, 03:18 PM	Heh, is it possible for an OP to derail their own thread? Granted the other few posters arent helping.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-25-07, 04:52 PM	The ability to use magic does not require Int 30. I understand this. But the things I describe do not require Int 30. Here's your 'fatal error:' Int is not like Str. With Str, your score sets limits on how much you can do, which increase on a nice and tidy logarithmic scale. Int does not measure a 'maximum cap' of anything. Your Int doesn't limit your skill points; a half-orc with Int 3 could have a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) modifier of +36 or higher, provided he has put in the ranks. Int measures how quickly your brain forms new connections between neurons and how efficiently it organizes those connections. It does NOT mean, say, that "visualizing 4-space requires a minimum Int score of 13". Anyone, with sufficient time and training, can train their brain to do something, provided that something can be described in language (and isn't something like "learn to fly"), because language itself is a function of brain structure and is used to facilitate thought. Learning a language fundamentally alters your brain; multilingual people have consistently outperformed monolingual individuals on tests involving memorization and conceptualization skills. So don't give me any crap about needing Int 30 to converse and do calculus at the same time.
strange_person 09-25-07, 07:04 PM	This could be a case of "I can't do those things, and a test said I have an Int of 20, so obviously no human can."
robertliguori 09-25-07, 09:07 PM	The ability to use magic does not require Int 30. I understand this. But the things I describe do not require Int 30. Here's your 'fatal error:' Int is not like Str. With Str, your score sets limits on how much you can do, which increase on a nice and tidy logarithmic scale. Int does not measure a 'maximum cap' of anything. Your Int doesn't limit your skill points; a half-orc with Int 3 could have a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) modifier of +36 or higher, provided he has put in the ranks. Int measures how quickly your brain forms new connections between neurons and how efficiently it organizes those connections. It does NOT mean, say, that "visualizing 4-space requires a minimum Int score of 13". Anyone, with sufficient time and training, can train their brain to do something, provided that something can be described in language (and isn't something like "learn to fly"), because language itself is a function of brain structure and is used to facilitate thought. Learning a language fundamentally alters your brain; multilingual people have consistently outperformed monolingual individuals on tests involving memorization and conceptualization skills. So don't give me any crap about needing Int 30 to converse and do calculus at the same time. Uh, is this a statement about reality, about D&D rules, or about your set of rules? If it's a statement about reality, then it's in need of a bit of support; it does not follow that the ability to alter your brain in some ways implies the ability to alter your brain in every possible way. Moreover, some tasks can be rendered difficult or impossible by additional information or training; it's very, very difficult to train yourself to not recognize a symbol, once you've learned to recognize it. If it's a statement about D&D, then, well, wizard's spells are a fairly straightforward canonical example of a verbal effect that requires an Int score above a certain amount to use. No amount of training or practice or verbalization will allow you to cast Wish as a wizard if you don't have 19 Int. Related examples are Dark Speech and warlock invocations; unless you have certain attributes not generally granted by language skills, you won't be able to use either, no matter how hard you try. If you're removing the Int limit on wizardly spellcasting for your variant rules, justified by the fact that you should be able to understand anything you can verbalize in a complex enough language, then more power to you; I happen to intensely dislike that particular rule. I may question this assertion in reality, and point out that it flatly isn't true in D&D, but I like the flavor of it. Again, I'd personally choose to abstract it one level back, and describe the changes taking place in the wizard's mind rather than his brain, but that's just my preference.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-25-07, 10:06 PM	Uh, is this a statement about reality, about D&D rules, or about your set of rules? If it's a statement about reality, then it's in need of a bit of support; it does not follow that the ability to alter your brain in some ways implies the ability to alter your brain in every possible way. Moreover, some tasks can be rendered difficult or impossible by additional information or training; it's very, very difficult to train yourself to not recognize a symbol, once you've learned to recognize it. If it's a statement about D&D, then, well, wizard's spells are a fairly straightforward canonical example of a verbal effect that requires an Int score above a certain amount to use. No amount of training or practice or verbalization will allow you to cast Wish as a wizard if you don't have 19 Int. Related examples are Dark Speech and warlock invocations; unless you have certain attributes not generally granted by language skills, you won't be able to use either, no matter how hard you try. If you're removing the Int limit on wizardly spellcasting for your variant rules, justified by the fact that you should be able to understand anything you can verbalize in a complex enough language, then more power to you; I happen to intensely dislike that particular rule. I may question this assertion in reality, and point out that it flatly isn't true in D&D, but I like the flavor of it. Again, I'd personally choose to abstract it one level back, and describe the changes taking place in the wizard's mind rather than his brain, but that's just my preference. Yes, but raising your Int score to the level required to cast the spell is again an instance of brain training; the more connections you have created in your brain, the more easily you can build new ones. Again, while I define Int as "intraneural efficiency," it's really more abstract; I prefer to move it back one step from the neurotransmitters and ionic charges at the synapses and axon terminals and looking at the whole picture as more of the properties of neural networks performing cognitive tasks such as those involved in learning. Really, it's not the matter in your brain that gives rise to consciousness; it's the overarching structure of the matter, the pattern of the bioelectric operators and chemical signals that make thought possible. Brains have been around for hundreds of millions of years; it took an unimaginably long time for them to compound to a level of organization that permits what we believe to be conscious thought. Just imagine where it could go from there; what strange and wondrous things might be possible if only a few more levels of organization were layered over what already exists; things lesser beings might call magic.
ArcTan 09-26-07, 01:45 AM	The ability to use magic does not require Int 30. I understand this. But the things I describe do not require Int 30. Here's your 'fatal error:' Int is not like Str. With Str, your score sets limits on how much you can do, which increase on a nice and tidy logarithmic scale. Int does not measure a 'maximum cap' of anything. Your Int doesn't limit your skill points; a half-orc with Int 3 could have a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) modifier of +36 or higher, provided he has put in the ranks. Int measures how quickly your brain forms new connections between neurons and how efficiently it organizes those connections. It does NOT mean, say, that "visualizing 4-space requires a minimum Int score of 13". Anyone, with sufficient time and training, can train their brain to do something, provided that something can be described in language (and isn't something like "learn to fly"), because language itself is a function of brain structure and is used to facilitate thought. Learning a language fundamentally alters your brain; multilingual people have consistently outperformed monolingual individuals on tests involving memorization and conceptualization skills. So don't give me any crap about needing Int 30 to converse and do calculus at the same time. So wait, your argument hinges on the idea that all real-world Humans have an Int of 6 and all D&D Humans are just that much smarter than us (average Int 10) and *that's* why we don't have magic in real life? Okay. Have fun.
ArcTan 09-26-07, 01:47 AM	Just imagine where it could go from there; what strange and wondrous things might be possible if only a few more levels of organization were layered over what already exists; things lesser beings might call magic. I can imagine it, but I'm not particularly inclined to do so, at least not over and above simply imagining a world where magic is just there and people of ordinary intelligence simply use it. Humans, famously, do not do anything *physically* impossible for animals. The idea that "One level of intelligence lets you recall the meanings of symbols over long periods of time; the next lets you set things on fire by thinking about it!" has never appealed to me, even when serious-looking people in white suits on television use bigger words than you're using to try to get me to donate money in support of it.
yrogerg 09-26-07, 07:29 AM	Your Int doesn't limit your skill points; a half-orc with Int 3 could have a Knowledge (architecture and engineering) modifier of +36 or higher, provided he has put in the ranks. Except when it does. I mean, that half-orc would need to be level 36 -a mini-god- to have those ranks with Int 3. I'd call that a limiting factor on skill points.
ArcTan 09-26-07, 02:33 PM	Right. The implication seems to be that people on real Earth are Int 3 or something but are all Epic-level characters.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-26-07, 05:15 PM	So wait, your argument hinges on the idea that all real-world Humans have an Int of 6 and all D&D Humans are just that much smarter than us (average Int 10) and *that's* why we don't have magic in real life? Okay. Have fun. No, it doesn't. Where in the Nine Hells did you get that idea? That came so far out of left field, it clocked me on the right temple. Where did I say real-world humans have an Int of 6? The Int 13 prerequisite to visualize 4-space was simply a hyperbolic example that I created to facilitate the expression of one key concept; it was NOT a window on any deeper levels of meaning that I simply neglected to inform you of.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-26-07, 05:27 PM	Except when it does. I mean, that half-orc would need to be level 36 -a mini-god- to have those ranks with Int 3. I'd call that a limiting factor on skill points. He'd only have to be level 20; Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus add a total of +9 after his Int penalty is calculated; the Specialized trait from Unearthed Arcana adds +1 to a single Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill in exchange for -2 to all others of that type; membership in an engineer's guild (read: Favored and Primary Contact feats) add +2 competence and give 1 bonus rank, which is specifically noted as being allowed to raise the total rank in a skill above your level-based maximum. And this is all sans-magic items/PrCs/substitution levels/multiclassing/serious optimization of any kind. So no, mini-godhood is not required. No half-orc left behind!
Pitiless_Interfector 09-26-07, 05:34 PM	Right. The implication seems to be that people on real Earth are Int 3 or something but are all Epic-level characters. I should have waited and added this reply with my other one, but I'll just address it here: YOU TAKE TOO MUCH FOR GRANTED AND ANALYZE THINGS TO RIDICULOUS AND ULTIMATELY UNHELPFUL EXTREMES! And as for your other character flaws--wait, that was it. (Chalk one up to brevity in posting!)
ArcTan 09-26-07, 06:58 PM	Okay, P_I, then what is the point? You go on and on about how none of us can say that magic isn't a real, physical phenomenon because we're not brainy enough, when Int 11 characters in D&D *are* brainy enough, and apparently that means we're all less than Int 11, except now you say that's not what you're saying. So what's the point?
tygreen101 09-26-07, 09:43 PM	so many people are saying that it's wrong to use "scientific" terms to describe magic, but what are the elements of a formula? it has structure. it has reason. the word fire is still the word fire. the only way that you can have schools and spell levels is to have a logical break down. if it was so "mystical" then we would roll EVERY TIME we cast a spell and while we may get better at casting that spell we still don't understand how it works. but when you break the different spells into schools and levels then there MUST be logic to it. in our modern day science, I know that 2 hydrogen atoms combined with 1 oxygen atom are always water. in magic, I write the formula in a spell book and when I "memorize" a spell I "scribe" it into my mind's spell book. (that line is taken directly from one of the book.. complete something) there IS structure. the only way we could develop magic into eventually a 9th level spell is to assign structure to it. without that structure, there is no wizard. there is only sorcerer, the bard, the cleric, the druid. the sorcerer doesn't know where the magic comes from, all he knows is that it's there. the cleric? all his magic comes from his deity. how does that mean that he understands ANYTHING of magic? the druid is the same way as the cleric. the bard? it is said that the bard learns arcane spells and yet he can use light armor, and some of the bard's spells have a somatic component. so that's unusual. everytime D&D talks about learning spells, the wizard has formulas. a formula has structure, logic.. a methodology. a science. you may want to make magic something "mystical" and not understood, but there has to be a methodology and structure or the system of magic that D&D has outlined would NEVER function.
strange_person 09-26-07, 10:02 PM	He'd only have to be level 20; Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus add a total of +9 after his Int penalty is calculated; the Specialized trait from Unearthed Arcana adds +1 to a single Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill in exchange for -2 to all others of that type; membership in an engineer's guild (read: Favored and Primary Contact feats) add +2 competence and give 1 bonus rank, which is specifically noted as being allowed to raise the total rank in a skill above your level-based maximum. And this is all sans-magic items/PrCs/substitution levels/multiclassing/serious optimization of any kind. So no, mini-godhood is not required. No half-orc left behind! Technically, you'd have to be 21st level to qualify for Epic Skill Focus. DMGII has some tips on single-skill optimization.
ArcTan 09-26-07, 11:01 PM	so many people are saying that it's wrong to use "scientific" terms to describe magic, but what are the elements of a formula? it has structure. it has reason. the word fire is still the word fire. the only way that you can have schools and spell levels is to have a logical break down. if it was so "mystical" then we would roll EVERY TIME we cast a spell and while we may get better at casting that spell we still don't understand how it works. but when you break the different spells into schools and levels then there MUST be logic to it. in our modern day science, I know that 2 hydrogen atoms combined with 1 oxygen atom are always water. in magic, I write the formula in a spell book and when I "memorize" a spell I "scribe" it into my mind's spell book. (that line is taken directly from one of the book.. complete something) there IS structure. the only way we could develop magic into eventually a 9th level spell is to assign structure to it. without that structure, there is no wizard. there is only sorcerer, the bard, the cleric, the druid. the sorcerer doesn't know where the magic comes from, all he knows is that it's there. the cleric? all his magic comes from his deity. how does that mean that he understands ANYTHING of magic? the druid is the same way as the cleric. the bard? it is said that the bard learns arcane spells and yet he can use light armor, and some of the bard's spells have a somatic component. so that's unusual. everytime D&D talks about learning spells, the wizard has formulas. a formula has structure, logic.. a methodology. a science. you may want to make magic something "mystical" and not understood, but there has to be a methodology and structure or the system of magic that D&D has outlined would NEVER function. "Magic has structure" is something I can totally get behind. "Magic has structure, therefore it comes out of this lobe in my brain" is not.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-27-07, 11:05 PM	Okay, P_I, then what is the point? You go on and on about how none of us can say that magic isn't a real, physical phenomenon because we're not brainy enough, when Int 11 characters in D&D *are* brainy enough, and apparently that means we're all less than Int 11, except now you say that's not what you're saying. So what's the point? The point is, while you are certainly smart enough to perform basic calculus after receiving adequate training from a qualified instructor, it took an astronomically gifted man to codify the operations of calculus. While calculus is easy to learn provided adequate education, it took nearly a thousand years for humanity to progress beyond 9th-grade mathematics. Whether we would have discovered calculus by now without Newton is an unanswerable question, sans fortuitous plot device... No, I guess not, but in any event every significant human achievement from 1700 onward has been influenced in some way by calculus. Mathematics has rarely undergone such huge leaps; Most discoveries are small [an expression here, an equation there], and many, many different mathematicians would collect these discoveries and use them to fuel their creativity, adding their own discoveries to the mix. But some gaps are simply too large to be bridged by slow, methodical progress. In the absence of a Newton-like genius to introduce to humanity the concepts of magic, uncovering the methods on our own may prove hugely difficult if not impossible. In many worlds, magic is first gifted to the common races by the gods at the dawn of time. Perhaps, without that head start, it may take millions of years to discover magic. Perhaps, in a million years, our science will have progressed to such a degree that it essentially is magic. If you're unwilling to read the whole paragraph above, I'll sum it up for you: While you, as an Int 11(~) being, can learn calculus, could you have discovered calculus on your own in any reasonable timeframe (keeping in mind that your not knowing about it makes your discovery entirely random)? If you couldn't invent calculus and had to learn it, why is that any different from magic? "Magic has structure" is something I can totally get behind. "Magic has structure, therefore it comes out of this lobe in my brain" is not. It does NOT "come out of this lobe in my brain." You have a lobe in your brain without which you cannot use magic. Likewise, there is a lobe of your brain without which you cannot see, as well as a lobe without which you cannot speak, as well as a lobe of the brain without which you cannot judge distance or form spatial maps. Part of this spatial lobe, presumably, includes a neural structure which allows practiced golf players to map the best way around obstructions, as well as judge the precise angle and force to put behind the shot to make it follow that path. Magic is not like pro golfing; magic is as beyond normal human capacities as electroreception (the kind sharks use to detect the electromagnetic traces of its prey's nervous system in pitch-black water). We can only catch glimpses of it through our other neural structures, and as such it takes a great deal of practice to work (represented by the Trained-Only designation for Use Magic Device). However, to truly master it requires an order of training not unlike that required to hear colors, or echolocate, or see infrared (not as "red," that's just an approximation to let you get the idea; I mean a completely different color from anything in the rainbow). For sorcerers, it's a lot simpler; more like learning to think in a new language. However, their need to do it all "in their head" without ever "showing their work" limits what they are able to do, since they must relentlessly practice their magic in order to make it function, much like trying to do the math SATs without a calculator tends to lower your final score.
strange_person 09-28-07, 09:47 AM	Actually, Leibnitz published first.
ArcTan 09-28-07, 04:08 PM	The idea that it takes one super-duper-genius to create an entirely new idea is, generally, a fallacy. Inventions occur because of the march of human progress -- calculus was invented because there was a *need* for calculus where there had been none before, thanks to advances in the sciences, which themselves had been motivated by advances in technology, which themselves had been motivated by the expansion of the economy, etc. What makes an invention is luck and circumstance more than anything else. Any moderately intelligent person, honestly, could've been the person who invented the first voltaic pile, or the first functioning steam engine, or the first multi-lens refractinc telescope. It's just that most people weren't in a position to do so -- or, if they were, weren't in a position to record their discovery and have it be recognized by a lot of other people. That's all. Newton (and Leibniz) were smart men, but not on some ineffable higher level than every other human who's ever lived. That kind of thing is a myth, and shows a lack of understanding of how science and technology work. It does NOT "come out of this lobe in my brain." You have a lobe in your brain without which you cannot use magic. It is highly unlikely that evolution would actually permit a large, developed, useful structure to continue to exist in the human brain for countless millions of years without ever actually being used. This is the fundamental flaw in the (fundamentally false) "We only use 10% of our brains!" misunderstanding.
yrogerg 09-28-07, 05:09 PM	It is highly unlikely that evolution would actually permit a large, developed, useful structure to continue to exist in the human brain for countless millions of years without ever actually being used. This is the fundamental flaw in the (fundamentally false) "We only use 10% of our brains!" misunderstanding. It also doesn't seem like a pertinent or useful premise unless there's some creatures that *lack* such a lobe, as there's really no reason otherwise not to just claim that it's a fundamental ordering of the physical universe, or based on the interaction of "souls" with the "energies of the universe", or some other mumbo-jumbo that still meshes better with most D&D cosmologies (where mind-body dualism is a given), rather than something built into brain's physical structures. And, haven't we come much to far from the whole "non-magical Dwarves" thing to slide all the way back? NB also that many things that lack brains still have the ability to cast spells. Approaching spellcasting as a matter of literal biology in the game world seems like a losing premise once we consider incorporeal creatures, constructs, undead, plants, oozes, and mindless creatures that have access to spells or SLAs.
ArcTan 09-28-07, 05:38 PM	It's also not actually true that we have "one part of our brain that does X, another that does Y, etc." I mean, it's *broadly* true, but it's also true that if you survive damage to one part of your brain, it *is possible* for other parts of your brain to slowly learn to compensate for that loss and to perform those functions themselves. Different parts of the brain have different functions, yes, as a matter of *organization*, but not as a matter of fundamentally different physical properties of different parts of the organ.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-28-07, 05:47 PM	It's also not actually true that we have "one part of our brain that does X, another that does Y, etc." I mean, it's *broadly* true, but it's also true that if you survive damage to one part of your brain, it *is possible* for other parts of your brain to slowly learn to compensate for that loss and to perform those functions themselves. Different parts of the brain have different functions, yes, as a matter of *organization*, but not as a matter of fundamentally different physical properties of different parts of the organ. Please, if I'm so insistent on the idea of a dweomerlobe being fundamentally important to working arcane magic, don't you think I'd've learned enough about the brain to know that? The dweomerlobe in wizards is not fundamentally different from any other lobe of the brain physiologically; you can't change your fundamental biochemistry by playing mind games (though we are talking about magic here). Therefore, you can train yourself to do it.
Silver_Bulette 09-29-07, 03:51 PM	Can I come back? Is it safe?:hides: You know what I want? To hear the end of that story Pitiless Interfector was telling. Launch Argument Ender v.2.0!!! Yes, only an INT of 10 is required to learn wizardly arts. However, Intelligence, to a wizard, means more than to other occupations (they are studying and pulling at the threads of the universe, after all). A INT 10 person could take this path, but probably not advance beyond Remedial Abjuration. That person would be perfectly intelligent in any other setting, but to truly learn to manipulate manipulate magic like a wizard beyond the 0th level spells, they would have to become much more studious. Let's not beat this to death. C'mon guys, I got my reading lamp and everything.
Pitiless_Interfector 09-29-07, 10:01 PM	Can I come back? Is it safe?:hides: You know what I want? To hear the end of that story Pitiless Interfector was telling. Launch Argument Ender v.2.0!!! C'mon guys, I got my reading lamp and everything. Much obliged: Cael stared at the crumpled carcass for several long moments. He cringed at the sound of the other students' laughter; malicious, spiteful laughter that tore into him like knives, leaving him feeling weak and humiliated. He closed his eyes to hold back the tears of guilt and shame that threatened to leak forth, blurring the edges of his vision. With all his heart and soul, he wished he could just disappear. Gasps of shock and alarm rippled thorugh the other students, and Cael's eyes snapped open. For some reason, they all looked frightened and bewildered, and none of them were looking at him anymore; several swept their eyes right over where he stood without stopping, as if he wasn't there. The only one who hadn't flinched or glanced away was Professor Salavert, whose bespectacled eyes bored a hole straight into him even as he appeared to be listening to something Cael couldn't hear. After a moment, his wordless conversation concluded, and he flickered into nothingness. Reappearing beside Cael, he fixed a searching stare on the limpid carcass, his blue-white eyes eerie and unblinking. "Come with me, Cael," he said. Wordlessly, Cael allowed Salavert to lock hands with him, pulling him into nothingness. For an eternal instant, Cael's eyes were dazzled by images of towering clouds of quicksilver shot through with flickering stars. Cael could not feel his body; it was as if he had stepped outside time itself, a disembodied thought poised between being and nonbeing. He lingered there until the end of time, and remained as time began anew. An eternity of eternities danced and wavered before him, and as he pinwheeled through the silver sea, his eyeless gaze beheld brilliant stars twinkling in the foggy void, and the bodies of dead gods locked in eternal repose drifted on currents of purest thought. He lived there forever, forever and again, and remained outside time and space for all eternity, never to return. Cael blinked. The green lawn between his feet had become stone tiling, and he couldn't for the life of him remember how it had gotten that way. It was as if the world had changed while he wasn't looking, though it couldn't have been more than an instant since he'd been standing outside in the courtyard. Perplexed, he didn't notice that Professor Salavert had accompanied him until he felt him let go of his hand. His disorientation abated, though his vision was still blurry from holding back tears, and he glanced around at his new surroundings with fearful curiosity. He stood in a chamber lined with shelves and tables, all loaded with books, papers, beakers, skulls, and countless containers of unidentifiable exotica, including herbs, animal parts, stones of odd shapes and colors, broken glass, powders, ointments, and foul-smelling liquids. A baroque mirror in a filigreed frame was set into the far wall, taller and wider than an adult human. Professor Salavert turned his eerie, blue-white eyes on Cael. "Professor Draupar will be with you shortly." He paused, then added "Don't touch anything." The next moment he was gone. Determined not to wind up in any more trouble than he already was, Cael fixed his bleary gaze on a spot on the wall directly in front of him, determined not to even look at the contents of the room. Of course, his determination faltered after a few moments, and he turned to inspect the chamber. A few moments afterward came the realization that the room had no door. It was in the midst of his subsequent hurried double-take that he saw a familiar dark-skinned figure step out of the mirror on the far wall. Professor Draupar looked the same as he had on the day Cael had met him, so long ago. He marched across the chamber, stopping a few feet from Cael before addressing him. "Do you know what you have just done?" he asked. Though his voice was devoid of anger or disappointment, Cael's spirits plummeted at these words. Struggling not to choke on it, he responded with a trembling "Y-yes." Draupar raised an eyebrow. "Yes, sir-Professor," he amended quickly. "Do you now?" he said, his tone partly amused, partly bemused. Cael's penitent facade crumbled into a canvas of confusion. Though he certainly noticed, Draupar seemed not to care, for his tone remained unchanged as he proceeded to explain. "Very, very few wizards of your age and skill could have performed magic of the level you've just demonstrated, my young friend." Cael, even more confused, didn't reply. Draupar paused, then pointed at the wall behind him. "Look in the mirror, Cael," he said. Obediently, Cael made his way between the tables and workbenches back to the far end of the room. When he drew up in front of the mirror and gazed into it, the view elicited a disbelieving blink. In front of him were the reflections of the tables, chairs, shelves, tiling, masonry, and Draupar himself, but Cael's own reflection was absent. He brought his face within an inch of the polished surface, and still his image did not appear within the glass. "What is this?" he asked of no one in particular, though Draupar answered him earnestly. "That mirror, though very fine and well-crafted, is not enchanted in any fashion; it is my own magic that allows me to pass between mirrors. What you see in the mirror is no illusion, though in truth what it reflects is. Watch closely." After a few tense seconds, something very strange happened. His reflection materialized in the mirror, and at the same time, his vision cleared. He'd thought his eyesight had been blurry with tears, but in truth, it had something to do with his reflection in the mirror. After a few moments more of staring into the mirror, his trained intellect connected the dots. Wide-eyed with amazement, he turned to face Draupar and said "I disappeared, didn't I?" Draupar nodded, then said "You are no ordinary wizard, Cael. You were born with gifts no amount of training could grant. With training, these gifts could prove more powerful than you can possibly imagine. You are no longer a student. You will be my apprentice." Finis Parti Dvo
xXOblivionXx 09-30-07, 06:08 AM	This is so awesome!!!
strange_person 10-01-07, 12:18 PM	It also doesn't seem like a pertinent or useful premise unless there's some creatures that *lack* such a lobe, Karsites. Tome of magic. Humans who are fundamentally incapable of using arcane or divine spells, but can use psionics, truenaming, and (most notably) bind vestiges without impediment.
ArcTan 10-01-07, 12:30 PM	Karsites' curse is something specifically laid upon them by what Karsus did. I think it's far-fetched to say that their abilities come simply from "lacking a dweomerlobe", especially since their abilities deal with *resistance* to magic just as much as not being able to use magic.
yrogerg 10-01-07, 07:50 PM	Karsites. Tome of magic. Humans who are fundamentally incapable of using arcane or divine spells, but can use psionics, truenaming, and (most notably) bind vestiges without impediment. What Arctan said. Also, did you catch the part where I said things like 2e's "non-magical Dwarves" were a *bad* idea? And then there's the issue of incorporeal creatures that can cast spells without having any physical brain, and the issue of intelligent undead casting spells without an intact physical brain. A 'dweomerlobe" *might* make sense (though I'd still think it'd be a bad idea) in a cosmology where Dualism wasn't such a *fundamental* part of the way the universe works that things without physical bodies or physical brains are still capable of having minds, and souls, and casting spells.
Dex 10-01-07, 09:41 PM	Pitiless_Interfector, do you mind if I post an in-game discussion on how magic works in one of my settings on this thread? (I just thought I'd ask, since it's your thread and all even if it's started to exhibit slippage.)
Senko 10-02-07, 12:07 AM	Personally I've always preferred a world with more variety in stats the one game balance forces on us so I'd add a Magic stat (you could do this for any extra ability e.g. psionics and the like) Mag: magical ability affects how powerful you are in terms of magic i.e. roll a d12 and that's the level of magic your able to handle. 1 = cantrips 2 = 1st level spells 3 = 2nd level spells 4 = 3rd level spells 5 = 4th level spells 6 = 5th level spells 8 = 6th level spells 9 = 7th level spells 10 = 8th level spells 11 = 9th level spells 12 = 10th level/epic spells The fun thing about this approach is that allows variation for different campaigns without causing problems altering existing stats would do so consider the following examples. Normal Magic World, normal classes e.g. Greyhawk Roll 1d12 and that's your magical ability up to a maximum of 12 If you select a magic using class (cleric, druid, bard, wizard, sorcerer) add 1 to the level you can cast again to a maximum of 12 (can raise this stats like normal stats with your 1 point every four levels but only to 12). Thus you can have magic users who aren't to bright and don't really understand the workings behin their spells but are amazing practical mages i.e. have no difficulty repeating the words. Variant Magic World, normal classes e.g. Earth Roll 1d12 and add or subtract a point depending on magical levels. That is the more background magic flows through the world the more likely you are to have magic users consider the following examples. Very Low Magic world (Earth): -4 to the roll gives you a maximum magic level of 8 or 8th level spells (which match's fairly well with D20 mod) and a minimum of -3 or in other words if you roll a 1, 2, 3 or 4 you can't use magic at all. Low Magic World: -2 to the roll Normal Magic World: no modification High Magic World: +2 to the roll, maximums still 12 but the weakest magic users are at 3 or able to cast 2nd level spells. Very High Magic World: +4 the least capable here are able to use up to 4th level spells althoug the maximum remains the same. GM Option those who are 14+ on the roll have a few cantrips they can cast at will or X number of times a day e.g. you roll an 11 add 4 for 15 so the GM allows you to select either 3 cantrips you can cast once a day or 1 cantrip you can cast 3 times a day. Normal Magic World, normal classes, variant backgroud Only certain beings are able to wield magic e.g. dragons and humans with the right makeup (whether genetic or cosmological i.e. spiritual). Add a feat magical heritage you may be descended from demons, dragons or just a human geneological line with the inherent ability to work magic. The first two examples are so far in history you don't get anything from them except an ability to work magic. Clerics and the like are exceptions because their powers come from outside and can be granted or revoked at that beings will. It would be a take at first level or not at all feat and get granted for free to those who select magic classes bards, wizards, sorcerers etc who merely differ in how they use it. Its effect allows you to roll 1d12 for magical ability as in the first example. Variant Magic World, normal classes, variant background Combine the feat with the different background levels like so... You can only use arcane magic if you have the magical heritgage feat. Very Low Magic world (Earth): These worlds are the magical deserts of the universe very few beings in them have even the proper makeup to use magic and of those the vast majority aren't strong enough to overcome the lack of backround power with their own. -4 to roll, GM approval to even take the feat. Low Magic World: -2 to the roll GM approval to take the feat Normal Magic World: no modification, GM approval no longer requierd High Magic World: +2 to the roll, may at GM approval have everyone starting with magical heritage feat even if they're a fighter. Very High Magic World: +4 as above + inherent cantrips. Of course for purposes of taking the feat it'd only be if you started off in that world e.g. if your born on earth you need GM approval to take magical heritage (a visiting dragon had sex with one of your ancestors) and be at -4 for the rolls whereas in greyhawk you'd just say I'm from a magical lineage, roll 1d12, select sorcerer or wizard and off you go. It also allows itself well to other modifications i.e. if your half dragon/celesital/tanarri you have +2 to the roll as your from an inherently magical race. It even explains why earth doesn't have real magic users with the massive attempts to wipe them out (inquisition for example although there have been other events) all the magical lines have been wiped out either through the killing of those with limited mystical ability or the departure of those with a lot for more hospitable climes. Of course its always possible it my crop up again sneaking down through history as a recessive gene till someone has all the right factors in place or through a magical creature passing through and sowing its wild oats.
Pitiless_Interfector 10-02-07, 08:37 PM	What Arctan said. Also, did you catch the part where I said things like 2e's "non-magical Dwarves" were a *bad* idea? And then there's the issue of incorporeal creatures that can cast spells without having any physical brain, and the issue of intelligent undead casting spells without an intact physical brain. A 'dweomerlobe" *might* make sense (though I'd still think it'd be a bad idea) in a cosmology where Dualism wasn't such a *fundamental* part of the way the universe works that things without physical bodies or physical brains are still capable of having minds, and souls, and casting spells. I've already addressed the issue of incorporeal creatures. Since incorporeal creatures can't exist in an antimagic field, it's safe to assume they're basically akin to a living spell with a bunch of extra poky bits (and extra stats to go with said poky bits). It's NOT that lacking a dweomerlobe makes it impossible to use magic period; it's just that humans (most humanoids, in fact) learn to work magic by creating a dweomerlobe. Magic isn't like running an electrical device; the differences aren't in DC or AC, volts or amps, watts or joules or gauss or what have you; it's more like math in general; you could do it on a computer, or in your head, or by moving sticks around, or by using a sequence of pheromones to command an army of ants to march in a pattern, and have the natural self-organization of the ants perform the actual process of computation. That makes perfect sense to me, and if it doesn't make sense to you, stop posting, because there is obviously not possible for you to see things the way I do, and thus arguing with you is not going to accomplish anything. And if you post any long-winded tables, in-character discussions, or what have you, make sure to put it in an S-block so scrolling to the bottom of the page doesn't take forever.
yrogerg 10-02-07, 09:03 PM	I've already addressed the issue of incorporeal creatures. Since incorporeal creatures can't exist in an antimagic field, it's safe to assume they're basically akin to a living spell with a bunch of extra poky bits (and extra stats to go with said poky bits). Incorporeal UNDEAD wink out of existence inside an AMF. That still leaves the tiny categories of Incorporeal non-undead creatures (such as Unbodied or Brain Collectors), and Ingelligent Corporeal Undead (Liches, Vampires, Morghs, Ghouls, etc. etc. etc.), neither of which have intact physical brains. A reasonable explanation would account for these groups, but yours doesn't. My argument is further that the explanation you give relies rather heavily on a monistic view of the mind and body (that is, the brain is the physical structure that gives rise to the mind through what is ultimately a mechanical process) that is rather at odds with the explicit dualism of the standard D&D cosmology. In D&D, the soul is an actual *thing* that can leave the body, move around, and can even enter other bodies, and the mind is the product of the *soul*, not the body in this cosmology. An explanation that fits the D&D cosmology *wouldn't* rely this heavily on the idea of a brain structure that all (or nearly all, whatever) spellcasting creatures possess, but rather on a property of the soul, or of the interactions between souls, which, again, *are real and important things* in D&D.
ArcTan 10-02-07, 09:20 PM	Incorporeal UNDEAD wink out of existence inside an AMF. That still leaves the tiny categories of Incorporeal non-undead creatures (such as Unbodied or Brain Collectors), and Ingelligent Corporeal Undead (Liches, Vampires, Morghs, Ghouls, etc. etc. etc.), neither of which have intact physical brains. A reasonable explanation would account for these groups, but yours doesn't. Don't forget Psion Uncarnates, who get the Incorporeal Subtype as an (Ex) class ability (and therefore stay incorporeal in AMFs).
yrogerg 10-02-07, 09:21 PM	Don't forget Psion Uncarnates, who get the Incorporeal Subtype as an (Ex) class ability (and therefore stay incorporeal in AMFs). And Constructs. Can't believe I forgot them.
Senko 10-03-07, 12:14 AM	I assume that comment about long winded tables was aimed at me, if you'll tell me how to put them in an S-block I'll be happy to edit my earlier post.
strange_person 10-03-07, 12:28 PM	Unbodied, brain collectors, and psion uncarnates all have brain-like structures. It would not be unreasonable to think that they have dweomerlobes as well, or something equivalent. I mean, seriously. Look at this thing, and then tell me with a straight face it hasn't got a brain. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80511.jpg
yrogerg 10-03-07, 07:09 PM	Unbodied, brain collectors, and psion uncarnates all have brain-like structures. It would not be unreasonable to think that they have dweomerlobes as well, or something equivalent. I mean, seriously. Look at this thing, and then tell me with a straight face it hasn't got a brain. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80511.jpg They don't have physical brains. On account of, y'know, not being physical creatures, but disembodied souls. A physical lobe in a physical brain can't really account for this adequitely, whatever they look like. Sure, they have brain-like structures that don't exist in the physical world, but at that point, what does making magic a product of a physical region of a physical organ that many creatures capable of casting spells don't have actually accomplish? And there's still cadaverous undead, who *had* brain-like structures before they died, and no longer have anything resembling a functional brain, but still have intelligence, and can cast spells. And there's still Plants, like Treants and Awakened Trees, who are perfectly capable of casting spells, and often make fun Druids, despite having no brains whatsoever, ever. And there's still Constructs, which again, are intelligent, sometimes, and capable of casting spells, sometimes, despite never having anything like a brain. And there's still Intelligent Oozes, though admittedly rare, who have no anatomy to speak of, but can still be intelligent and cast spells. Again, a monistic explanation -one where the mind and soul arise from the functioning of a physical body- doesn't work well for an agressively dualistic cosmology where many creatures lack physical brains, but are still intelligent and capable of casting spells.
Pitiless_Interfector 10-03-07, 08:06 PM	Unbodied, brain collectors, and psion uncarnates all have brain-like structures. It would not be unreasonable to think that they have dweomerlobes as well, or something equivalent. I mean, seriously. Look at this thing, and then tell me with a straight face it hasn't got a brain. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80511.jpg S_P, you've proven once and for all that strange is good. But in any case, I'm not arguing against dualism or the existence of the soul distinct from the body. I'm just stating that the mind is not the exclusive province of the soul; it is the bridge where the magico-spiritual and the mundano-physical realms combine. I will be unable to post (or read the posts of others) until Monday. I apologize for the delay.
Pitiless_Interfector 10-08-07, 12:15 AM	I will be unable to post (or read the posts of others) until Monday. I apologize for the delay. OK, f*** that. Good to be back, people.
turalisj 10-20-07, 11:32 AM	I've now read it in its entirety and I must say it's very good. The only thing I wouldn't use from it is the idea of the Dweomerlobe, it seems too scientific and psionic. I prefer a more mystical view. I see spells as being more like a twist and a knot in the mage's soul which holds power until the knot is 'untied' by the actions of casting a spell. Since when did Merlin use potions brewed from obscure items? That seems like something you'd find a european alchemist doing.
BaseDeltaZero 10-22-07, 12:12 AM	Ego caelipotens sum! Specta me, quod imperator omnibus sum! Deus solus sum! Futute te! Hahahae! I am the [power of heaven]! [Behold me, who is] ruler of everything! I am the [only]** god! [You are brittle*]! [<Evil Laugh>] Okay, now he's claiming to be a god. Seriously, lay off the Bungie. <Puts on anti-rampancy goggles>. *Alternately, 'you are the future', but that seems unlikely. ** It more contextually means 'forsaken'. And so, I forsake this thread, before Pitiless Interfector gets any crazier.
Pitiless_Interfector 10-22-07, 06:42 PM	I am the [power of heaven]! [Behold me, who is] ruler of everything! I am the [only]** god! [You are brittle*]! [<Evil Laugh>] Okay, now he's claiming to be a god. Seriously, lay off the Bungie. <Puts on anti-rampancy goggles>. *Alternately, 'you are the future', but that seems unlikely. ** It more contextually means 'forsaken'. And so, I forsake this thread, before Pitiless Interfector gets any crazier. Dude, that post is as ancient (relative to Internet time) as the language itself. How did it take you so long? And where the hell did you get "You are brittle?" It means GFY (though not many dictionaries include Latin profanity). The only reason you dug this up was to prove you could translate it. Well, guess what: ANYbody can translate Latin; there are sites out there that do it for you. So please, no pi$$ing matches.
ArgulFraster 11-11-07, 06:12 PM	[Zoidberg Voice]Shut up with the arguing! Let us continue with the story and the magics.[/Zoidberg voice] Now, I dislike the idea of a dweomerlobe, mostly because of the work needed to develop one. ><;; Personally, I think it's all skill-anybody can do it, just most people don't. And I want more of that story, pleez. Quite good. I've always played Sorcerers, type B magic, because I prefer having a set number of spells instead of worrying which spells I'll need. Same thing with Clerics-I've only played two. A spontaneous-casting Cleric would make me happy in my pants, though. I liked the thoughts before the argumentery started. Let us return to that, shall we? esta volumen in toga, ansolum libet me videre? ;)
Warweaver 11-11-07, 06:38 PM	I second that. I've read this thread from start to finish, and want to make a plea for everyone who wants to argue (un-constructively, mind you) with P_I to just leave his thread alone. I do not agree at all with his ideas, and I worry about how much work he'll have to do to make it compatible with a campaign case-by-case. However, I find his views very creative and it is obvious P_I has put a lot of work into them. It is also obvious from his quoting of rules from UA and other sources he's using, that he is using optional rules - thus his premise is for a specialized campaign ONLY. Even if he sounds like he's trying to foist his interpretation off as a viable view of Core, don't let your hackles rise. Those who like his interpretation will use it. Those who find it irreconcilable with regular D&D (like myself) will not. However I still think it is very creative and admirable for him to make such an attempt. Please - these are boards for a game of fantasy. We should be applauding creativity, not deriding it!
BigGus 12-15-07, 02:44 PM	You can describe the Force in "scientific terms" without making it be generated by little swimmy things that live in your blood, which is an outright *contradiction* of claims that the Force transcends physical reality and is generated by life itself. There's a difference between making something more "scientific" in the sense that it follows predictable, repeatable rules and making it more "scientific" in the sense that you make up some hokey explanation for it that you think makes it more like something that could "really happen". The Mediclorians don't generate the Force; they're what connects you to the Force. I high Mediclorian count just means you're better at accessing the Force. Like having a faster internet connection or whatever.
danelsan 12-28-07, 08:22 PM	*casts flame resistance and protection from nerd rage* While I won't use this explanation in my games, I have a few questions that hopefully may help make it more capable of dealing with certain possibilities in D&D. Under this explanation for one way creatures can manipulate magical energy, used by most humanoids as you say, there is one possibility still to be explained. while incorporeal monsters, elementals and other things can handle magic because they are intrinsically magical themselves, and dragons have that magical metabolism you said (it was you right? I won't re-read the entire thread again, sorry). But consider the possibility of a human wizard, who made the efort to develop his lobe, dying. His friend uses a spell to reincarnate him. How can the wizard still cast spell in his new body? The new body instantly grows a lobe as developed as it was in the other body? that could work. But in the case of trading bodies? I know that there is some pysionic power to do so. (you use magic-psyonic transparency? Does it also includes special brain structure - I will assume so, as it makes more sense for psychism than to magic anyway). I mean, wizard soul (who developed the dweomerlobe) changes place with fighter's soul (who has never made the efort to develop it). How can the wizard still cast spells? If the spell/power that makes the trade happen is of instantaneous duration (I will not look into specific examples, mostly because I'm without my spell compendium and it could be created as Epic Spell anyway), then it could not be because the spell sustains the wizards power. Also, can a creature that needs to develop their dweomerlobe learn magic from creatures that need not, like dragons or elementals? If yes, how would that work? If not, I think that would invalidate some prestige classes for your setting. And if a wizard becomes a ghost, how he instantly adapts to the "magical sustaining existance" instead of all the study he put into using his brain to manipulate magic? Later I'll see if there is other points of doubt for me (mostly out of curiosity, since this explanation doesn't work for me... but i'd like to try help you develop your explanation, since being helpful with creative endeavours is better than complaining about such eforts considering it is a game and all :) )
Pitiless_Interfector 12-30-07, 12:53 AM	*casts flame resistance and protection from nerd rage* While I won't use this explanation in my games, I have a few questions that hopefully may help make it more capable of dealing with certain possibilities in D&D. Under this explanation for one way creatures can manipulate magical energy, used by most humanoids as you say, there is one possibility still to be explained. while incorporeal monsters, elementals and other things can handle magic because they are intrinsically magical themselves, and dragons have that magical metabolism you said (it was you right? I won't re-read the entire thread again, sorry). But consider the possibility of a human wizard, who made the efort to develop his lobe, dying. His friend uses a spell to reincarnate him. How can the wizard still cast spell in his new body? The new body instantly grows a lobe as developed as it was in the other body? that could work. But in the case of trading bodies? I know that there is some pysionic power to do so. (you use magic-psyonic transparency? Does it also includes special brain structure - I will assume so, as it makes more sense for psychism than to magic anyway). I mean, wizard soul (who developed the dweomerlobe) changes place with fighter's soul (who has never made the efort to develop it). How can the wizard still cast spells? If the spell/power that makes the trade happen is of instantaneous duration (I will not look into specific examples, mostly because I'm without my spell compendium and it could be created as Epic Spell anyway), then it could not be because the spell sustains the wizards power. Also, can a creature that needs to develop their dweomerlobe learn magic from creatures that need not, like dragons or elementals? If yes, how would that work? If not, I think that would invalidate some prestige classes for your setting. And if a wizard becomes a ghost, how he instantly adapts to the "magical sustaining existance" instead of all the study he put into using his brain to manipulate magic? Later I'll see if there is other points of doubt for me (mostly out of curiosity, since this explanation doesn't work for me... but i'd like to try help you develop your explanation, since being helpful with creative endeavours is better than complaining about such eforts considering it is a game and all :) ) Holy crap! PEOPLE STILL READ THIS THING? Oh. Right. In my signature. Well, in any case, in instances where the soul or mind is divorced from the body, in accordance to the nature of dualism—wherein the soul/mind/consciousness and the hunk of meat you call your brain are intrinsically tied together—you get cases of synchronicity: the electrical impulses received and cogitated by your brain are likewise reflected by changes in the pattern of mystic energy that makes up your soul. Your soul stores a 'backup' of your consciousness, because it is a mirror of your body, including the physical brain that thinks and reasons. It doesn't work via identical processes, but there are direct analogues for functions such as reason, learning, and emotion. When the soul is divorced from the body and reincarnated in another form, the process of building a body and rebinding the soul at the same time allows the soul to reassert the dualistic mirror and reimprint its identity on the new brain. In the case of true mind switch, however, the telepath hijacks this link, reprogramming the electrical impulses of the brain via a telepathic link with his own. The telepath's soul is transferred through this link, displacing the target's soul, which takes up residence in the other's body and reprograms the brain of the telepath (which has already been "flavored" with the target through the link). The result? Effectively, a "soul swap."
VulcanStormwrath 12-30-07, 06:04 PM	There needs to be a separate board for the metaphysics of D&D. THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE HIGHLIGHTS
Pitiless_Interfector 01-02-08, 11:34 PM	There needs to be a separate board for the metaphysics of D&D. THIS WOULD BE ONE OF THE HIGHLIGHTS Of course, chances are good large portions of it will become outdated with the release of 4E.
RanielK 01-08-08, 11:17 AM	The problem here is that most modern DnD books (not sure about 1st/2nd ed) are simply providing rules to run the thing and leaving description up to the GM. Yeah, D&D's basics are crunch. The fluff of how is up to the DM and players to hash out. This is the same problem with novels. You get a person whose job is to write an enjoyable narative to entertain folks. They're not worried about the game mechanics. So if the author wants, everyone has to follow some similar conceit to get magic to work. Another author dreams up some other conceit. The rest describes the mechanics of spell use so lets look at what it has to say on arcane magical writings as that seems applicable. "The notation constitutes a universal arcane language that wizards have discovered, not invented. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However each character uses the system in her own way." Seems to show all wizards use magical writings at least in a manner unique to them even when using the same original language although admitedly there is some research here its not necessarily universal or commonly shared. I've always seen this as being like Ursla K Leguin's Earthsea stuff. There is this fundamental language which is used to describe everything. Change the description in a sentence and you change the world around you. You could communicate in this language if you knew enough words (sentence structure is only somewhat necessary), a la Earthsea's dragons who speak in this language. The individual bent comes in when you want to say remove a house. While your teacher used "House gone now!", you use "brickus removus totalus!" Both have the same result (except yours doesn't work on thatch huts for some reason) but have their own bent. A little later on "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spells level x 50 gp, though many wizards jelously guard their higher level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them alltogether." Not exactly an environment for research although friendly mages trade equal level spells. Well there is individual research which goes on. This is supported by the wizards gaining 2 (or more) new spells per level in their spellbook. Not to mention the paragraphs on spell research outside of level gain. It is a personal preference whether or not a wizard shares that research for monetary gain (or power in the case of spell swaping). From the DMG section on introducing magic to your world "Just because magic works and most people are aware of it doesn't mean they know exactly how it works or when it's in effect." Talking about superstitions and common people here not mages but still indicates that the majority of people don't know that much about magic. In this case, let's be honest. How many of us not in a scientific or engineering field can honestly say we know how every piece of technology works in and around our homes? And of those in said fields (or the truely dedicated hobbiest), how many of you know a lot about the information outside of you field. We hold more as general knowledge now thanks to our education system than a peasant of the 10th century did. But the fraction we know as general knowledge compared to all that is out there is not too different than the fraction the peasant held compared to the few alchemists of his day. This doesn't make magic a non-scientific force. It just means that due to the nature of the civilization that most D&D worlds are played, it is not that well understood. The rare few geniuses out there could have notebooks filled with an obscure code which have rightly predicted every scientifical magic advancement for the next 300 years. All in all magic seems to be very personal and hoarded, high level mages don't get together and chat about their spells assembling a scientific premise that outlines the exact workings of magic for all. I'm not saying you can't play a mage like that if you want who know's maybe one day future generations will read Salla and Oblivion's magical theories that laid the groundwork for the current understanding of magic. However what little flavour text there is in the books indicates to me at least that most mages aren't that interested in sharing and expanding the universal knowledge of magic so much as their own personal power and that even in the area's where there are universal constants (the discovered arcane writings) they aren't perceived in the same manner and indeed may only apply to wizards and not sorcerers or bards. Of course, the Americans weren't that interested in sharing anything (even the peaceful side) of atomic energy. It took a number of unconnected individuals to leak the secrets found during the Manhattan Project to ensure there was not an atomic bomb enforced Pax Americana. There is a similar view with wizard spells after a certain level. There is no publish or perish of research funding. The only reward from being the first to know a thing is in seeing the smoking ruins of your rival at the end of the mage duel. Wizards are loners who are out for personal power more often than not. When you get a group of like minded individuals who are out for positive social change (the negative will just tear itself apart eventually), mercantile power (much like the Dragonmarked houses), or mutual protection/aid society, then you'll get a group that pushes forward and eventually makes known the universal truths of magic.
RanielK 01-08-08, 11:30 AM	And if your apprentice was always nice and sweet and helpful around you but everyone else who knew them described them as a vindictive bastard only out for what they could get? How about if all your current crop seemed fine but you'd had at least 1 previous apprentice who after completing their training became evil and had killed people you cared about in their attempts to make you suffer for some reason? What if someone who could pay for that Polymorph any object planned to use it to transform other members of their thieves guild into animals so they could smuggle things into and/or out of cities? How about if they wanted summon creature X so they could unleash a swarm of low level critters on random villiages for protection money or dominate to make that uppity person who'd always turned them down have sex with them? How about if there were members of your guild who kept asking for spells but never gave you any "Because you know I'm not good at research but I really need to know how to give glass the strength of steel." Although I have to admit a guild would be more likely to share spells how about with another guild who's views are directly opposite to yours in several important areas? The spell I gave is actually in the epic book and could be used by someone opposed to your country to sink parts/all of it and if multiple opposing groups banded together they probably could buy it. In the end, these are all what if scenarios that could be played out infinitely. It boils down to three things: a)Yes to all requests, no matter what (the chaotic or evil types usually) b)Yes only to a certain power level or to trusted individuals (with a range from giving apprentices a place to start and let them hang themselves with their own rope to trusting what Sense Motive tells you and going from there to magically scrying a guy to within an inch of his life for decades before handing over the scroll of magic missile) c)No cause everyone is out to get me (or someone else who I might care about) and/or I'm the only one who can be trusted with this knowledge (so no apprentices ever, start research you alignment appropriate type of immortality and maybe either research making your own demiplane to hide on or start killing off the competition for whatever reason you can use to justify it) And in the end, there is always independent research. So it doesn't really matter if you give it to them or not. D&D's own unique brand of "publish or perish" means the rival spellcaster better keep getting the latest magic toy or risk getting offed by someone else.
RanielK 01-08-08, 11:48 AM	I believe it's a module for AD&D 1ed. In it somehow Eliminster winds up in the real world and I think you have quest for something to bring him back. Plus I just love the frothy beer. The cover art was also used for a Barbara Hambley novel (Walls of Air I believe, where a wizzy type goes on the run from some mean hombres and ducks onto Earth for a place to hide).