Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devil Gnasher 06-18-07, 07:52 PM	In the spirit of my first thread on necromancy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830680) I bring you a new topic for discussion, Gray Necromancy. Gray Necromancy Today we will be covering a branch of the necromantic arts known as Gray or Neutral Necromancy. Such spells cover every thing from autopsy magic to undead creation spells. For this purpose I have added a few spells to the arcane necromancy spell list and even developed one of my own. I have even modified some spells to fit the category better. Arcane Gray Necromancy so far None Corpse Analysis Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Deathwatch Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Command Undead Necromancy (Gray) Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Speak with Dead Necromancy (Gray) Level: Cleric 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Animate Dead Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Death Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 None. Create Undead Necromancy (Gray) [Evil] Level: Clr 6, Death 6, Evil Death Drd 4,, Evil 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Control Undead Necromancy (Gray) Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Create Greater Undead Necromancy (Gray) [Evil] Level: Clr 8, Death 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Astral Projection Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9 Deathwatch Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 30 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Using arcane power or that of your god, you can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell’s range. You instantly know whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct). Deathwatch sees through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death. Corpse Analysis Necromancy (Gray) Level: Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 5 ft. Target: One dead creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: none Spell Resistance: No Using hair, tissue or blood samples you can determine the precise cause and time of death of one individual. This spell also reveals the amount of force used by the assailant. It can also be used to determine how many times the victim was struck before death and find self defense wounds, if any exist. Material Component: A drop of blood, a half square inch of skin or a single strand of hair. Neither prevents raise dead or resurrection. Speak with Dead Necromancy (Gray) [Language-Dependent] Level: Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 10 ft. Target: One dead creature Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: No You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all. This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information. Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned. This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature. Okay people, what do you think so far?
Devil Gnasher 06-19-07, 08:30 PM	Does any one have any more suggestions for spells?
chromeraven 06-19-07, 11:14 PM	while I'm wholly for the idea of neutral necromancy, how exactly is a spell with the evil descriptor considered to be neutral?
Devil Gnasher 06-20-07, 12:04 AM	while I'm wholly for the idea of neutral necromancy, how exactly is a spell with the evil descriptor considered to be neutral? Gray Necromancy spells are necromancy spells that neither directly harm nor assist the living and or undead. Any harm or assistance to the living or undead would be indirect in nature. That's Gray Necromancy for you.
Devil Gnasher 06-20-07, 08:02 PM	Any other ideas or suggestion for this topic?
Sildatorak 06-20-07, 08:08 PM	I only have one main question. What benefit is there to classifying some necromancy as gray? If you're trying to de-villify some necromancy, I think it is probably just better to drop the [evil] descriptor from spells like animate dead.
Devil Gnasher 06-20-07, 09:45 PM	I only have one main question. What benefit is there to classifying some necromancy as gray? If you're trying to de-villify some necromancy, I think it is probably just better to drop the [evil] descriptor from spells like animate dead. It's to divide necromancy into healing/defense/mutation/undead destruction (White Necromancy), general purpose/divination (Gray Necromancy) and offensive spells against the living (Black Necromancy). Gray Necromancy is called that because it causes no direct harm or benefit towards the living, unlike the other two branches. It has nothing to do with good or evil. But you're right about animate dead, I'll remove the Evil descriptor from it. Of course I'll also change the material components for the spell too. This is the original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2172922#post2172922) in which it is mentioned.
Devil Gnasher 06-21-07, 01:59 PM	Any more ideas for this thread would be welcome.
Sildatorak 06-21-07, 03:37 PM	I'm guessing that people aren't posting because there really aren't any mechanical implications for splitting your necromancy into white/gray/black. You might get more feedback on one of the campaign building forums if you're interested in the implications of this split on your world at large.
JulesCARV 06-21-07, 04:23 PM	I guess most of us just don't feel it's needed. I mean, we don't really have "black," "grey," and "white" abjuration, illusion, or transmutation. There are subschools, to be sure, like glammer/figment/shadow/phantasm for illusion, but these are generally in how the spells work, not a disignation of their moral status, which is generally left to descriptors such as [evil] or [lawful]. What are the mechanical implications of a necromancy spell being in the (grey) subschool? Personally, if I felt that necromancy needed subschools, I'd create them based on function. Necromancy (slaying) would include slay living, destruction, finger of death, wail of the banshee, soul bind, etc. Necromancy (reanimation) would include animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead. Necromancy (commanding) would include command undead, control undead, speak with dead, etc. Necromancy (enervation) would include touch of fatigue, bestow curse, ray of enfeeblement, energy drain, enervation, etc. These are just rough guidelines, of course, so there might be a more elegant way of doing this, but this isn't really my point. I don't actually feel that these subschools are needed. My real point is... I don't see what your point is. Will there be special feats that allow someone to specialize in grey necromancy? Prestige classes with "must be able to cast three necromancy (grey) spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher" or somesuch? Would certain clerics be allowed to use grey and black necromancy, but forbidden to use white necromancy, while others would be allowed to use white and grey necromancy, but forbidden to use black necromancy? I know that you're a bit disappointed by the lukewarm response you're receiving here, but perhaps it would be better if you could clarify your objectives a bit.
Devil Gnasher 06-21-07, 09:32 PM	I guess most of us just don't feel it's needed. I mean, we don't really have "black," "grey," and "white" abjuration, illusion, or transmutation. There are subschools, to be sure, like glammer/figment/shadow/phantasm for illusion, but these are generally in how the spells work, not a disignation of their moral status, which is generally left to descriptors such as [evil] or [lawful]. What are the mechanical implications of a necromancy spell being in the (grey) subschool? It means that those spells provide no direct mechanical benefit or harm to the living. It can be Good, Neutral or Evil but it can't have a direct effect on the living. Personally, if I felt that necromancy needed subschools, I'd create them based on function. Necromancy (slaying) would include slay living, destruction, finger of death, wail of the banshee, soul bind, etc. Necromancy (reanimation) would include animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead. Necromancy (commanding) would include command undead, control undead, speak with dead, etc. Necromancy (enervation) would include touch of fatigue, bestow curse, ray of enfeeblement, energy drain, enervation, etc. These are just rough guidelines, of course, so there might be a more elegant way of doing this, but this isn't really my point. I don't actually feel that these subschools are needed. My real point is... I don't see what your point is. It's very simple. White Necromancy spells cover healing, protection and undead destruction. Gray Necromancy could be considered general purpose necromancy. It is necromancy that neither harms nor heal. Black Necromancy targets the living for dehibilitation or destruction. White Necromancy is called such a thing because white is the color most associated with cleanliness, medicine and hygine. Gray Necromancy gets its name either from tomb stones (which tend to be gray) or the fact that corpses turn a pale grayish color before decomposing. Black Necromancy is linked to rot and decay, hence its name. Will there be special feats that allow someone to specialize in grey necromancy? Prestige classes with "must be able to cast three necromancy (grey) spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher" or somesuch? Would certain clerics be allowed to use grey and black necromancy, but forbidden to use white necromancy, while others would be allowed to use white and grey necromancy, but forbidden to use black necromancy? I've thought of that and yes I'd like to do it. Maybe you can help me with that project. As for clerics see this list. Core gods that allow White Necromancy 1. Pelor 2. Heironeous 3. Kord 4. Yolanda 5. Hextor. He's evil but he's practical. 6. Corellon Larethian 7. St. Cuthbert 8. Gruumsh. See Hextor. 9. Mordain 10. Obad Hai Core gods that allow Gray Necromancy 1. Wee Jas 2. Vecna 3. Nerull 4. Mordain. Why not give his clerics spells for talking with the dead? He's a dwarf right? 5. Hextor 6. Gruumsh 7. Heironeous. But casting such spells would put a whole new shine on the word "self sacrifice". Now that's why Good aligned gods don't want their clerics or paladins casting animate dead if that spell is listed as non-Evil. Core gods that allow Black Necromancy 1. Nerull 2. Hextor 3. Vecna 4. Erythnul 5. Garl Glittergold. Not the major death spells, just things like ray of enfeeblement and mark of justice. That'll teach you not to pick on small folk.:) 6. Corellon Larethian. Black Necromancy isn't inherently evil and good doesn't mean nice. 7. St. Cuthbert. He's the god of retribution. Black Necromancy is often times used for retribution. 8. Gruumsh 9. Obad Hai. Death is part of natrue. Get used to it. 10. Wee Jas. But she won't grant very much. Maybe up to 4th level if you're really good. Then she'd want to know why you need that spell in the first place. I know that you're a bit disappointed by the lukewarm response you're receiving here, but perhaps it would be better if you could clarify your objectives a bit. I'm trying to do that. I just need help.