Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devil Gnasher 04-17-07, 02:28 AM	Hi there. I would like some help reestablishing necromancy as the school of healing and bring back the distinctions between White, Gray and Black Necromancy. We will also allow arcanists (other than bards) to cast such healing spells using their own power. First let's cover White Necromancy. White Necromancy White Necromancy is the branch of the necromantic arts and sciences which covers healing and biological improvements upon the living. It also involves using the caster's own life force (read as health) to the benefit of the caster or others, to protect from harm due to necromantic attacks or effects or to combat the undead. In Second Edition the only methods that mages could use to heal others was to take that damage themselves. While I wish to allow mages in this Edition to do the same I also want to develop methods that require material components instead. I've already started this process. Will any one help me with this?
Dead_Weasel 04-17-07, 03:26 AM	A small idea comes to mind on reading this: a caster with no spell slots, but uses their hp to produce magical effects (d12 HD a plus?) which are centered around either healing/curing allies or hurting/hindering enemies. Doubtless something similar has already been pursued. To return to the topic at hand, it sounds like you want to move the healing subschool to Necromancy and add a bunch of reversed Vampiric Touch spells to the Sor/Wiz list, with optional material components to mitigate/remove hp drain to the caster.
Devil Gnasher 04-19-07, 02:41 AM	A small idea comes to mind on reading this: a caster with no spell slots, but uses their hp to produce magical effects (d12 HD a plus?) which are centered around either healing/curing allies or hurting/hindering enemies. Doubtless something similar has already been pursued. There was the Ghul Lord. The Ghul Lord was a Second Edition kit for the Sha'ir wizard from the al-Quidam setting. Since they were Sha'ir wizards and not standard mages, they couldn't cast spells. Instead they employed manipulations which took at least one round to use. Ghul Lords gained undead-like benefits and disadvantages as increased in power. They could also control the undead upon reaching 10th level. To return to the topic at hand, it sounds like you want to move the healing subschool to Necromancy and add a bunch of reversed Vampiric Touch spells to the Sor/Wiz list, with optional material components to mitigate/remove hp drain to the caster. That's pretty much what I was thinking. I'd also like to create a series of 14th to 18th level wizarding necromancy spells based off of the raise dead chain. The first one (14th level) will be based off of raise dead and will require various biological agents, including powered unicorn horn, as well as electricity to revivify the dead. The second one (16th level, based off of ressurection) will take the form of a magical funeral pyre and will require phoenix tears, feathers and other reagents. The third and final spell (18th level, based off of true resurrection) will require a container of water large enough to hold the subject and water as well as numerous magical and mundane reagents. So, what do you people think? Do I have any good ideas?
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:52 AM	There are a lot of inappropriate spells in Conjuration right now - yes, the Cure spells should be necromancy, as should every other spell that involves curing. Its manipulation of biological matter. Heck, the inflict spells are necromancy, but if cure spells are conjuration, inflict should be conjuration for the same reason. Similarly, teleportation effects have no business being in Conjuration and should properly be Transmutation. Its not like Conjuration wasn't a strong school before they moved those to it. 3.5 did a lot of weird things with moving spells into inappropriate schools. I think 3e may have done some too. Its really frustrating.
sigma999 04-19-07, 04:00 AM	I vote for a change of spells being grouped into multiple categories. I believe something like the idea was in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage, but they way it was presented in the book was complex and, well, stupid. I mean... take for instance The Orbs. Many complain they should be Evocation, so it should therefore be in Evocation AND Conjuration. Maybe Transmutation too. Cure series would be Necromancy, Conjuration, Abjuration, and maybe Illusion (fake a cure haha! fooled you! :rolleyes:) Inflict would be Necromancy, Conjuration, and Transmutation (turn portions of the flesh of your foes into.. what.. inorganic matter?) The Fly spell, as Sean K Reynolds suggested in a work of his own, can be explained into any many schools, some examples including Summoning a small creature to lift you into the air, Evoking an aura of energy that propels you aloft, or Necromancing spirits to carry you, or so on...
Dead_Weasel 04-19-07, 04:26 AM	The orbs are conjured into being, already headed in the direction you want. That's what makes them conjuration; houseruling them into evocation isn't remotely difficult to justify though. I sympathize with sigma999's desire to move spells into multiple schools, but I feel that it might be better to move similar spells into different schools, so that the spells that belong in multiple places instead have similar variants that nonetheless function differently in each school (i.e. move air walk, fly, and overland flight into different schools, so on and so forth) Back to the point, remember to apply gp costs to your material components so they can't be Eschew Material-ed out of the picture, and I still think they should be optional - so perhaps permanent loss of caster's hp(s) for raise dead and resurrection and permanent Con loss (still to the caster) for true resurrection? So as to avoid the question of rewriting the lines between schools, it might be best to give White Necromancers their own spell list and Advanced Learning(conjuration and necromancy) instead of setting them loose on the Sor/Wiz spell lists.
Thiez 04-19-07, 08:23 AM	Cure series would be Necromancy, Conjuration, Abjuration, and maybe Illusion (fake a cure haha! fooled you! :rolleyes:) Inflict would be Necromancy, Conjuration, and Transmutation (turn portions of the flesh of your foes into.. what.. inorganic matter?) There is no way Cure spells should belong in Abjuration... they repair a problem that is already there, they don't prevent the problem :) Illusion seems a bit far-fetched too. Change to Transmutation...
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-19-07, 01:34 PM	There are a lot of inappropriate spells in Conjuration right now - yes, the Cure spells should be necromancy, as should every other spell that involves curing. Its manipulation of biological matter. Heck, the inflict spells are necromancy, but if cure spells are conjuration, inflict should be conjuration for the same reason. It's all about the stupid quasi-evil image that they tend to assign to necromancy. Similarly, teleportation effects have no business being in Conjuration and should properly be Transmutation. Its not like Conjuration wasn't a strong school before they moved those to it. Actually I think teleportation fits with conjuration far more than transmutation. Transmutation is about changing things. Making them bigger, making them smaller, making them stronger, or disintegrating them to ash. Teleportation is simply moving an object from point A to B. This is conceptually closer to a calling or summoning spell, which also takes matter and moves it. Transmutation is also the last resort school to get any spell that doesn't seem to fit anywhere else. Conceivably, every spell could be called a transmutation. Fireball transmutes things by burning them. Cure light wounds repairs and heals, Wall of stone transmutes the environment by creating a wall, and so forth. I say only put things in transmutation if they absolutely don't fit anywhere else. Transmutation is big enough as it is.
Devil Gnasher 04-19-07, 03:06 PM	So as to avoid the question of rewriting the lines between schools, it might be best to give White Necromancers their own spell list and Advanced Learning(conjuration and necromancy) instead of setting them loose on the Sor/Wiz spell lists. A White Necromancer is just a necromancer who focuses on necromantic spells that heal the living, harm or disable the undead, cause beneficial mutations and that use the caster's own health (hit points or constitution) to benefit himself or others.
Dead_Weasel 04-19-07, 10:43 PM	Yes, but expending hp is a suicidal option for any full arcane caster, what with the d4 and all. It seems to me that a white necromancer would need to focus more on his own discipline than the average specialist, given that he is receiving the ability to heal with arcane magic, which the rules are quite clear in avoiding. At the same time, I suggested Advanced Learning because exclusive spell lists are restrictive, and AL lets you expand your repertoire while remaining within your focus.
Devil Gnasher 04-20-07, 02:22 AM	Explain what you mean Dead Weasel. I just want to know what you are talking about.
tyrecian 04-20-07, 02:46 AM	a vigor type cure could be in abjuration I think for balance purposes, the true mark of this class would be its ability to heal from range. Considerring that a wiz would have low HPs (assuming d4, not d12 :)) This would offset the unable to use armor that is an obvious drawback because healing is immediately a HUGE taunt to any mob that sees it and knows what is happenning. Replacing certain spells like Magic Missile with the same thing only heals, perhaps even have things like Healball (d6 healing /lvl max 10d6) could be a nice feature. You would not be able to fight like a cleric or wear armor so sometimes you woudl be less versatile, but you could use more defenses like invis, mirror image, displacement, shield, etc. Perhaps replace Disintegration with a ranged touch Heal, and voila well on your way. Maybe you could even make it a class feature that becasue you are so focused on healing, your damage spells lack a certain punch. All damage dealt is subdual. Of course being necromantic you would have to specialize in necromancy, and many spells would have to be redirected to necromancy (obviously healball wouldnt be evocation or fire) but it could be done. ambitious, but then so much has already been created, why not make a white wizard healer? Sounds like it could be fun. To be honest, completely changing the flavor of the class to go with what you said, and using the Shugenja starter out of the Complete Divine might be right up your alley. I have been DMing an Oriental Invasion campaign, and have been playtesting Shugenjas, they are pretty fun (sorcereresque). If you take the water orders, they have healing, and also pick up several wizardly characteristics along the way, such as illusions and no armor restrictions, but they also get the better HD... just a thought
Devil Gnasher 04-20-07, 07:41 PM	Actually, I don't intend to make a seperate class for necromantic healing or improvement. I might make a prestige class though. Also, a wound transfer could use the health (hit points) of a willing donor instead of the caster. I'm even mulling around with the idea of an epic feat making academic White Necromancy (a.k.a. benign wizarding necromancy), as well as one for instinctive White Necromancy (a.k.a. benign sorcerous necromancy) more efficiently.
Dead_Weasel 04-20-07, 07:46 PM	Transfer isn't a bad idea, now that you mention it. I simply meant that an arcane caster giving up hp to heal someone else is a bad idea; anyone who should be taking damage has more hp than the caster and probably more AC, meaning that an arcane caster spending his own hp to heal him is making himself a liability instead of helping. If an arcane caster is getting more hp, he has to suffer a loss of magical versatility (i.e. the Beguiler, the Warmage, etc.) in exchange, thus a set spell list, broadened by Advanced Learning.
Nghtpunisher 04-20-07, 07:59 PM	well what if in rder to heal somone your spell needed say "a living small/tiny" bug or animal like those small mice or a dragonfly? i could see a white necromancer killing mice to save humanoid lives :) or pulling out his jar of fireflies to stop a poisn and cure 1D6 hp. well what do u think of my ideal?
FabulousRex 04-20-07, 09:13 PM	Forgive the heresey for posting Psionic materials in the Magic using forums, but there's already a few good powers that mimic what you're thinking about, as well as a whole PrC dedicated to non-divine healing, the Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c). Just work from there and adapt things out. The modular nature of Psionics is far more useful to a concept like this, but you could simply make a selection of Damage Transfer spells similar to the Cure line up. The Psionic version transfers other peoples' damaged HP to the caster, but the caster only takes 1/2 the HP damage. An example: Fighter Bob has 100hp, and is currently damaged to 60hp, missing 40hp. Sangehirn Bill has 60hp, and is undamaged. Bill transfers Bob's full damage onto himself (40hp), fully 'healing' Bob in a roundabout way. Bill only takes 1/2 that damage, or 20hp, knocking him down to 40hp after the transfer is complete. Take the Cure line of spells, and make them into a Transfer Wounds- line that heals the same amount, but the caster takes 1/2 the healed damage onto himself. The Damage Reduction is more of a Psionic mind-over-body thing, but Fast Healing could work by sacrificing spell slots. Perhaps Fast Healing on a fixed level-based chart (1/2 Caster Level), for a number of rounds equal to the spell level sacrificed?
temparus2000 04-20-07, 09:34 PM	why does curing fit with necromancy? Necro = death. Mancer = maker. A necromancer, literally, is a death-maker. Don't see why he should be able to cure. I'm not saying that conjuration is a good choice either, I would vote for abjuration on the grounds that healing is a form of protection.
Mindolin 04-20-07, 10:07 PM	Necromancy may mean Death-Maker, but it is described as spells that work with the life force. Healing qualifies as working with the life force, thus healing spells should be necromancy spells, as written. Although if they weren't Conjuration spells, we wouldn't have those jokes about Joe Farmer, Ted the Priest, and Bob the Fighter.
allencon 04-20-07, 11:23 PM	It is an interesting set of ideas. My own take on the matter, has been that perhaps necromancy (and some misplaced spells under the subschool of healing from the conjuration school) should be split into two disctinct schools. Essentially a new school Vivavancy would be created that would consist of all conjuration healing spells, and generally those spells that inolve tinkering around with positive energy. In this way, necromancy can more tightly define itself around the manipulation of negative energy.
Devil Gnasher 04-21-07, 02:40 AM	Necromancy is an ancient Greek word meaning death or corpse divination. As such the foundations of arcane necromancy could be thought of as a magical version of forensic pathology and perhaps spiritualism.
FabulousRex 04-21-07, 06:56 AM	Exactly. Ancient 'Necromancers' are more at home on CSI than Tales from the Crypt. The Summoning spells dominate popular opinion about Necromancy, but you can be a Necromancy specialist and be quite benign, even beneficial to the community by stopping plagues and shutting down Undead invasions. Therefore, I think this idea of 'White Necromancy' should be represented by a PrC with some unique spells and abilities rather than anything complicated like splitting up spell schools. It can be something like a normal Necromancy specialist, just focusing on the more benign aspects of the school. Perhaps if it's a non-evil Necromancer-only PrC?
temparus2000 04-21-07, 08:37 AM	a neat idea for white necromancers could be undead powered by positive energy,,,could work with some creativity (and may already exist in a book somewhere)
Devil Gnasher 04-21-07, 08:58 PM	Exactly. Ancient 'Necromancers' are more at home on CSI than Tales from the Crypt. The Summoning spells dominate popular opinion about Necromancy, but you can be a Necromancy specialist and be quite benign, even beneficial to the community by stopping plagues and shutting down Undead invasions. This is pretty much what I was thinking. Therefore, I think this idea of 'White Necromancy' should be represented by a PrC with some unique spells and abilities rather than anything complicated like splitting up spell schools. It can be something like a normal Necromancy specialist, just focusing on the more benign aspects of the school. Actually asked I've Lord Mortanus on the Umbrassa Gravelands to make a PDF of the five necromancer kit to base class conversions he's made, including the anatomist and deathslayer. I could still use your idea and the conversions. Now on to our differences. Perhaps if it's a non-evil Necromancer-only PrC? No need whatsoever. True some could, and should have non-evil alignment restrictions, but not all need to. Let's say that you are a Lawful Evil necromancer who focuses on White Necromancy. You could use such powers and military training to turn an entire battalion in to an elite special forces or shock troop unit with superhuman (or whatever other race they are) powers. He (or she) could also use whatever governmental powers you have to legally abduct children from their parents and mutate and train them at a young age. You could take naturally occurring mutants and genetically engineer into them even more useful mutations.
Devil Gnasher 04-22-07, 07:30 PM	Any questions? Good, let's get started people, I'll make some spells based loosely off of the cure line of spells first. 0 level spells. Least Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 0 This spell functions like minor life transfer, except that it cures only 1 point of damage. 1st level spells. Least Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 1 This spell functions like minor curative aliment, except that it cures only 1 point of damage. Material components: 5 gp of crushed acorns made into a salve. or Focus: 3 Hairs from the tail of a unicorn taken with the freely given permission of the unicorn by the caster and then prepared in oils worth 30 gp. Minor Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: None; see text Through either scientific study or innate talent, you transfer a small portion of your health, or that of an informed donor, into another living creature restoring it of up to 8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). You or the volunteer takes the same amount in damage. This spell has no effect on the undead. 2nd level spells. Lesser Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 2 This spell functions like minor life transfer, except that it cures up to 16 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +10). Minor Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M or F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: None; see text By use of organic materials and scientific study, you can cause the body of your patient to spontaneously repair its self of 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). This spell has no effect on the undead. Material components: 10 gp of protein supplements and medicines. or Focus: A Diamond worth at least 50 Gp. 3rd level spells. Lesser Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 3 This spell functions like minor medicinal aliment, except that it cures 2d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +10). Material components: 20 Gp of a five-ounce mixture of milk honey and common restorative herbs. or Focus: A Coutal's scale, taken with freely given permission by the caster, and then preared in oils worth 70 gp. Improved Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 3 This spell functions like minor life transfer, except that it cures up to 24 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). 4th level spells. Greater Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 4 This spell functions like minor life transfer, except that it cures up to 32 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +20). Improved Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 4 This spell functions like minor medicinal aliment, except that it cures 3d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). Material components: 30 Gp worth of smoked salmon, specially prepared. or Focus: The wing feather of a Solar, given freely, to the caster. 5th level spells. Greater Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 5 This spell functions like minor medicinal aliment, except that it cures 4d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +20). Material components: 40 gp worth of protein rich plants, specially prepared. or Focus: A 100 gp diamond, baptized in the Lake of Celestia, by a Solar. 6th level spells. Mass Minor Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: None; see text Through either scientific study or innate talent, you transfer a portion of your health, or that of an informed donor or donors, into other living creatures restoring them of 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) in each selected creature. You or the volunteer takes the same amount in damage per recipient. This spell has no effect on the undead. 7th level spells. Mass Minor Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 7 Components: V, S, M or F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: None; see text By use of organic materials and scientific study, you can cause the bodies of your patients to spontaneously repair themselves of 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +25) in each selected creature. This spell has no effect on the undead. Material components: 50 gp of protein supplements and medicines. or Focus: A diamond worth 400 gp. Mass Lesser Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 7 This spell functions like mass minor life transfer, except that it cures 16 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +30). 8th level spells. Mass Lesser Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 8 This spell functions like mass minor medicinal aliment, except that it cures 2d8points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +30). Material components: 60 gp of a five-ounce mixture of milk, honey and common restorative herbs. or Focus: 5 Tail reathers of a Coutal, Prepared in Oils worth 80 gp, in a week long ceremony, presided over by a bard of at least 10th Level. Supreme Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 8 Components: V, S Casting Time: 3 rounds Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None. Spell Resistance: None. As heal, but it does not effect undead and either the caster, or the volunteer takes damage as is healed. 9th level spells. The Great Surgery Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 9 Components: V, S, F, M Casting Time: 3 rounds Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None. Spell Resistance: None. As the spell Heal, but does not effect the undead. Focus: A Specially prepared sterile surgical room. Material Components: 100 gp of protein supplement and medicines. Any polite critiques would be welcome. Any polite critiques would be welcome.
MareltEkiran 04-22-07, 08:29 PM	Just so you're all aware... There already is a Necromancy spell in the Spell Compendium that does something like this. It's called "Healing Touch", Sor/Wiz3, school of Necromancy. It heals the subject a number of d6's, which the caster decides (maximum 1d6/2 CL). The caster takes half the damage that was just healed.
sigma999 04-23-07, 12:10 AM	Very nice, Devil_Gnasher. I did very similar adaptations, using a similar vague guide of "healing mage spell = cleric spell +2 to +3 levels". However, reactions from my 'gaming group' were partially virulent and insulting, at best apathetic. "One of the oldest rules of D&D" the DM said "is that Mages aren't supposed to heal." There was a 'greek chorus' of agreement and insults for my effort (these were all guys between 18-19, mind you.) and I stopped showing them my creations after that. I'm happy that others are doing the same, though. I don't feel as invalidated as I did then. Change is usually discomforting, sometimes awkward, but in most cases for the better. Maybe WOTC will pick up on this and release some new arcane healing spells similar to what you propose, DG. Personally, I'd remove all distinctions between Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer and any other spellcaster groups, and provide the ability to pick from a variety of focused domain-like schools or spell lists. The function of a spellcaster (and title) would then result from HOW the character uses their individual selection, rather than the other way around (the selection inherent to their class determines how they behave) If a caster heals, buffs party, and rejects undead, they are a Cleric. If they have nature-spells, elemental combat magic, and shapeshifting, they are a Druid. If they are a walking toolbox of many types of magic, even healing, the character would be a Mage, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The distinction that MAGES CAN'T HEAL LOLOLOL is arbitrary, presumptive, limited, old-fasioned, ungrounded in most settings, and illogical. It's as if a single guy wrote the first rules for D&D in a hasty, single-minded manner and never considered the implications for the future. *coughgygaxcough* Just seems like we're cleaning up someone else's mistakes. *sigh* Many other RPGs are like this but it seems D&D is either stuck, upholding a tattered standard, regressed, obstinant, or simply bumf***. Overhauling D&D into new spell schools would be a massive project, I know mostly from my repeated yet failed attempts at this, but worth it. Given the massive amount of spells and the ever-increasing number, recategorizing everything would be impossible. However, making example spell lists for gamers to use as a guide, or folding many spell functions into fewer spells might be a better choice. Hope this post wasn't too divergent, just trying to give my prediction/ideal for what could be possible.
Devil Gnasher 04-23-07, 11:02 PM	Very nice, Devil_Gnasher. I did very similar adaptations, using a similar vague guide of "healing mage spell = cleric spell +2 to +3 levels". However, reactions from my 'gaming group' were partially virulent and insulting, at best apathetic. "One of the oldest rules of D&D" the DM said "is that Mages aren't supposed to heal." There was a 'greek chorus' of agreement and insults for my effort (these were all guys between 18-19, mind you.) and I stopped showing them my creations after that. I'm happy that others are doing the same, though. I don't feel as invalidated as I did then. Change is usually discomforting, sometimes awkward, but in most cases for the better. Maybe WOTC will pick up on this and release some new arcane healing spells similar to what you propose, DG. I strongly doubt it. Personally, I'd remove all distinctions between Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer and any other spellcaster groups, and provide the ability to pick from a variety of focused domain-like schools or spell lists. The function of a spellcaster (and title) would then result from HOW the character uses their individual selection, rather than the other way around (the selection inherent to their class determines how they behave) If a caster heals, buffs party, and rejects undead, they are a Cleric. If they have nature-spells, elemental combat magic, and shapeshifting, they are a Druid. If they are a walking toolbox of many types of magic, even healing, the character would be a Mage, Sorcerer, or Wizard. I see it more as a case of archetypes. For your viewing pleasure, and information on the core primary spellcasting classes and their archetypes. Cleric- The cleric class has no basis in standard pre-Dungeons and Dragons fantasy. It instead drew inspiration from the historical and legendary Archbishop Turpin as well as the Knights Templer and the monastic/priestly military orders of the Middle Ages. Male Clerics are better thought of as warrior priests/monks while female clerics are best thought of as warrior priestess/nuns. Druid- The ancient druids were Celtic priests and priestesses, mostly of a god named Dagda or "the Good God", named that for his skill in all things. Druids as a service to the Good God were required to sacrifice bulls, cows, sheep and gold along with murders, rapists and traitors. After the violent crime rate in ancient Britain and Ireland dropped some druids continued the sacrifices; even going so far as to use escaped slaves and other non-violent offenders as well as those who committed no crimes at all. Other druids discontinued the practice citing that the Good God (Dagda) commanded them to only sacrifice the worst of all possible criminals, those who violated the bodies of others, those who committed murder and those who betrayed they're people. I might make modifications to the druid class in another post. Sorcerer- Sorcerer comes from an Old English word meaning in essence caster of lots or sortilege. It later came to mean a magician who gained his power from service towards or power over demons, daemons, devils or other creatures of the supernatural. An example of a good aligned sorcerer would be Prospero, from William Shakespeare's, The Tempest. An example of an evilly aligned sorcerer would be Kefka from Final Fantasy 6. Could also be applied to those with innate magical talents. Merlin, as played by Sam Neil would be an obvious choice for a good aligned sorcerer. Wizard- A wizard is in essence a magical scientist and philosopher. While a sorcerer most often uses power borrowed from other beings, a wizard must rely upon his own knowledge, intellect, skill, cunning and magical power. Characters to base wizards upon can be found among such great scientists as Ptolemy, Archimedes or Euclid. This list could also include the alchemists of Middle Ages to modern scientists, such as Sir Isaac Newton. Obvious choices, like some versions of Merlin would make good role models as well. The distinction that MAGES CAN'T HEAL LOLOLOL is arbitrary, presumptive, limited, old-fasioned, ungrounded in most settings, and illogical. It's as if a single guy wrote the first rules for D&D in a hasty, single-minded manner and never considered the implications for the future. *coughgygaxcough* Just seems like we're cleaning up someone else's mistakes. *sigh* Many other RPGs are like this but it seems D&D is either stuck, upholding a tattered standard, regressed, obstinant, or simply bumf***. Overhauling D&D into new spell schools would be a massive project, I know mostly from my repeated yet failed attempts at this, but worth it. Given the massive amount of spells and the ever-increasing number, recategorizing everything would be impossible. However, making example spell lists for gamers to use as a guide, or folding many spell functions into fewer spells might be a better choice. Hope this post wasn't too divergent, just trying to give my prediction/ideal for what could be possible. Interestingly enough magic-users (what we would now call wizards) did have one healing spell in the original edition of D&D (before AD&D, and in 1974). It was a 7th level spell called "Heal", which functioned just the 5th level cleric equivalent. Unfortunately Gygax's "friends" convinced him to remove that spell from the magic-user list later. These same "friends" forced Gygax to accept both the bard class and the overly complicated rules for unarmed combat in First Edition. I hope this post wasn't too divergent either.
Devil Gnasher 04-24-07, 01:48 AM	If any one could find information about any anti-undead necromancy spell, please post it. By "it" I mean its name, school and level not the entire spell its self. Don't forget the name of the book it's from. Thank you.
Senko 04-24-07, 06:35 AM	My god why didn't we see it before all these people running around calling themselves "clerics" are really necromancers in disguise think about it what is the area in which they shine? Healing, speaking with the dead, dealing with spirits, even raising the dead that's where. Incidently I like having healing spells as Necromancy after all if you know how to cure you know how to harm and vice versa.
Magon 04-24-07, 08:29 AM	wel i've done a simpe thing. i've moved every healing spell to necromanecy. done and done
Devil Gnasher 04-24-07, 03:27 PM	Arcane White Necromancy spells so far. Disrupt Undead Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 0 Least Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 0 Touch of Rest Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 0 (removes fatigue, changes exhaustion to fatigue) Least Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 1 Minor Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 1 Touch of Warmth Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 1 (heals 1d6 + 1 str, panicks undead) Bone Chill - FB Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Corporeal undead are held by a thick layer of frost. Decay Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 False Life Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Lesser Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 2 Life Bolt - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 1 ray/2 levels draws 1 hp from you to deal 1D12 damage to undead. Minor Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 2 Remove Blindness/Deafness Necromancy (Healing) Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Disrupt Undead, Greater - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 As disrupt undead, but 1D8 damage/level. Halt Undead Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Improved Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 3 Lesser Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 3 Cure Disease Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 4 Greater Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 4 Improved Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 4 Restive Dirge Necromancy Level: Brd 4, Wiz/Sor 4 Bind Undead Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 5 (Also a fifth level cleric spell) Graft Flesh-Converted by Neumi Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Greater Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 5 Cause Mutation-Joltz Transmutation/Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 6, Druid 5 Incorporeal Nova - Libris Mortis Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Damages ethereals. Mass Minor Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 6 Undeath to Death Necromancy Level: Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Mass Greater Life Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 7 Mass Minor Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 7 Clone Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Mass Lesser Medicinal Aliment Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 8 Supreme Transfer Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz/Sor 8 The Great Surgery Necromancy (Healing) Level: Wiz 9
Devil Gnasher 04-24-07, 07:46 PM	If anyone would like to add any anti-undead necromancy spells outside the SRD to the list, I would deeply appreciate it. So please name one more of them if you can. Thank you for your help so far.
Devil Gnasher 04-25-07, 04:35 PM	Help please.
sigma999 04-26-07, 02:19 AM	I'll contribute, but since I'm working a lot this week (and probably this much for some time to come) I have neither the time to post so frequently nor the mental energy. -_-; However, it's a worthwhile cause and I have a few in mind, just have to check the names and sources again, which will require some reading... don't worry, I have this thread bookmarked. :cool:
Devil Gnasher 04-26-07, 08:34 PM	I'll contribute, but since I'm working a lot this week (and probably this much for some time to come) I have neither the time to post so frequently nor the mental energy. -_-; However, it's a worthwhile cause and I have a few in mind, just have to check the names and sources again, which will require some reading... don't worry, I have this thread bookmarked. :cool: Thank you sigma999. I apprecieate the help.
hieratical 04-27-07, 06:02 PM	If anyone would like to add any anti-undead necromancy spells outside the SRD to the list, I would deeply appreciate it. So please name one more of them if you can. Thank you for your help so far. Dessicating Bubble - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 A Flaming Sphere like effect using dry air. Don't forget Chill Touch panics undead! Bone Chill - FB Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Corporeal undead are held by a thick layer of frost. Life Bolt - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 1 ray/2 levels draws 1 hp from you to deal 1D12 damage to undead. Shroud of Undeath - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Negative energy shroud makes undead perceive you as undead. Spawn Screen - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Subject resists being transformed into an undead spawn if slain. Crown of the Grave - PHB2 Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Command undead, discharge to gain +4 on turn or rebuke. Disrupt Undead, Greater - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 As disrupt undead, but 1D8 damage/level.
sigma999 04-27-07, 08:48 PM	Touch of the Graveborn - CM Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Deal 10d6 (to living?) or control undead. Incorporeal Nova - Libris Mortis Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Damages ethereals. Ghostform - Libris Mortis Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Become a ghost (temporarily), good for taking the battle to the enemy :P Crown of the Grave - PHB2 Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Sicken Evil - BoED Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Devil Gnasher 04-28-07, 12:55 AM	Bone Chill - FB Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Corporeal undead are held by a thick layer of frost. Life Bolt - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 1 ray/2 levels draws 1 hp from you to deal 1D12 damage to undead. Spawn Screen - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Subject resists being transformed into an undead spawn if slain. Disrupt Undead, Greater - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 As disrupt undead, but 1D8 damage/level. All of these would qualify. Dessicating Bubble - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 A Flaming Sphere like effect using dry air. Don't forget Chill Touch panics undead! Both of these spells harm the living, and therefore are Black Necromancy. Fortunately I won't count them as automatically evil because of this. TSR did under 2nd Edition but I won't. Crown of the Grave - PHB2 Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Command undead, discharge to gain +4 on turn or rebuke. Shroud of Undeath - SpC Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Negative energy shroud makes undead perceive you as undead. Both cause no harm to the living therefore are not Black Necromancy. But neither do they heal living, destroy or inhibit the undead, protect the living, augment or improve living creatures or either copy or produce new life. Therefore, not White Necromancy. Gray it is.
Devil Gnasher 04-28-07, 01:27 AM	Touch of the Graveborn - CM Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Deal 10d6 (to living?) or control undead. Black Necromancy yet again. Wait for the final necromancy thread in this series. Incorporeal Nova - Libris Mortis Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Damages ethereals. Just what I'm looking for. Thank you sigma. Ghostform - Libris Mortis Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Become a ghost (temporarily), good for taking the battle to the enemy :P Gray Necromancy, not that any decent undead-hunter would refuse this spell. Crown of the Grave - PHB2 Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Hieratical mentioned this one before. I'm sticking to my previous statement and saying Gray Necromancy. Sicken Evil - BoED Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 5 Do you remember what I said to hieratical about Chill Touch? That just because it's Black Necromancy doesn't mean evil, right? Just because a necromancy spell has the [good] descriptor doesn't mean it's White Necromancy. Black Necromancy with [good] aligned descriptor.
Nathreet 04-28-07, 06:07 PM	Someone thought it was strange to put teleportation into conjuration. Actually I think it makes a lot of sense. For one, it really doesn't fit transmutation. But, most of all, any time you conjure something you actually bring it in from another plane. And guess what? Teleportation is plane-based too. Hence, "dimension door", "dimensional anchor". So really all conjuration is a form of teleportation. As for OP's question: Take all necromancy spells. Add to white necromancy spell list if appropriate, otherwise reverse and then add to white necromancy spell list. Done. 0: disrupt undead, touch of rest (removes fatigue, changes exhaustion to fatigue) 1: remove fear, touch of warmth (heals 1d6 + 1 str, panicks undead) 2: remove blindness/deafness, destroy undead, false life, spectral hand 3: gentle repose, halt undead, (reversed vampiric touch) 4: remove curse, remove disease Etc.
Devil Gnasher 04-28-07, 06:54 PM	Someone thought it was strange to put teleportation into conjuration. Actually I think it makes a lot of sense. For one, it really doesn't fit transmutation. But, most of all, any time you conjure something you actually bring it in from another plane. And guess what? Teleportation is plane-based too. Hence, "dimension door", "dimensional anchor". So really all conjuration is a form of teleportation. As for OP's question: Take all necromancy spells. Add to white necromancy spell list if appropriate, otherwise reverse and then add to white necromancy spell list. Done. 0: disrupt undead, touch of rest (removes fatigue, changes exhaustion to fatigue) 1: remove fear, touch of warmth (heals 1d6 + 1 str, panicks undead) 2: remove blindness/deafness, destroy undead, false life, spectral hand 3: gentle repose, halt undead, (reversed vampiric touch) 4: remove curse, remove disease Etc. I agree with you on most points but, Remove Fear deals with the mind and is thorefore properly thought of as either enchantment or abjuration. Remove Curse should also be abjuration while Bestow Curse should be reinstalled under transmutation or put into enchantment. Just my opinions.
Devil Gnasher 04-29-07, 11:38 PM	A few White Necromancy spells converted to 3rd Edition by Nemui (ex member) on the Umbrasa Gravelands with some slight modifications by me (see as with Graft Flesh). Bind Undead Necromancy Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S, DF/M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Area: 30-ft. emanation centered on a point in space; see text Duration: Concentration plus 1 round/2 levels Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell creates an inward-focused magic circle 30 ft. in radius that traps undead creatures, preventing them from escaping. The circle is invisible and allows one-way passage, so an undead could walk into it unknowingly after the spell is cast. Mindless undead are not allowed saving throws - it is impossible for them to cross the circle from the inside out - but the circle has no effect on sentient undead that make their Will saves. While maintaining concentration, you can choose to reduce the binding circle's radius by 5 feet, forcing the trapped undead to move further inward. However, each sentient undead is allowed a new Will save to avoid moving, and thus escape the circle. You cannot increase the circle's radius beyond 30 ft., nor can it be brought back to its previous dimensions once reduced. You cannot reduce the circle's radius once you have stopped concentrating. The binding circle extends into the Ethereal Plane, so even ethereal undead such as ghosts can be trapped. Focus: A femur, held prominently while maintaining concentration. Graft Flesh Necromancy Level: Wiz 5 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Special; see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You reconnect a severed extremity to a creature that has lost a digit, hand, arm, leg, or even its head. The spell cannot restore life to a dead creature, but it returns a lost extremity to a living or dead creature if it is otherwise mostly intact. If the original extremity is present when this spell is cast, or if the replacement extremity is harvested from a creature of the same type as the subject, the effect is instantaneous. However, if the replacement extremity is harvested from a creature of a different type, the effect is permanent (and can thus be dispelled). This spell can also be used to graft an additional extremity to a creature that has not lost one, but in this case the duration is only 1 day per caster level. This change is mostly cosmetic – while the subject can use the additional extremity for menial tasks, he generally does not gain any in-game benefit from having it temporarily attached. Material Component: Severed digit, hand, arm, leg, head, or other body part. Can not be eschewed. Special: This spell may be used as replacement for certain spells when performing grafts.
Devil Gnasher 05-02-07, 11:44 PM	1. Unicorn- No explanation needed. Would make a good animal companion for Good-aligned necromancers and sorcerers if they took an animal companion instead of a familiar. 2. Phoenix- No explanation needed. Would make a great Good-aligned familiar for sorcerers or necromancers. 3. Bears- In Roman times and the Middle Ages it was believed that bears died in the winter and rose from the dead in the spring. Also bears can also sleep through the winter and still be able to wake up to defend her cubs or go to the bathroom. They can then fall back to sleep as if nothing happened. Good pet or animal companion for necromancers or necromancer/druids. 4. Butterflies- Like bears butterflies are often times seen as symbol of death and ressurection, rising from their cocoons as if they were rising from the dead.
sigma999 05-03-07, 03:28 PM	1. Unicorn- No explanation needed. Would make a good animal companion for Good-aligned necromancers and sorcerers if they took an animal companion instead of a familiar. 2. Phoenix- No explanation needed. Would make a great Good-aligned familiar for sorcerers or necromancers. 3. Bears- In Roman times and the Middle Ages it was believed that bears died in the winter and rose from the dead in the spring. Also bears can also sleep through the winter and still be able to wake up to defend her cubs or go to the bathroom. They can then fall back to sleep as if nothing happened. Good pet or animal companion for necromancers or necromancer/druids. Bears?! :confused:
Devil Gnasher 05-03-07, 04:39 PM	Bears?! :confused: Yes, mundane real world bears. People in the Middle Ages actually thought that bears died in the winter and rose from the dead in the spring. So yes, bears count.
Devil Gnasher 05-22-07, 09:33 PM	Any other ideas or help would be welcome.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-22-07, 09:44 PM	As I mentioned elsewhere - Cure spells ought to be necromantic, not conjuration. And the school ought to be called something else - Zoemancy
Devil Gnasher 05-23-07, 12:19 AM	As I mentioned elsewhere - Cure spells ought to be necromantic, not conjuration. And the school ought to be called something else - Zoemancy Zoemancy, what does that mean?
sigma999 05-23-07, 01:07 AM	Animal art?
ArcTan 05-23-07, 01:40 AM	Zoemancy, what does that mean? "Zoe" means "life" in Greek. "-mancy" means "magic" (well, okay, it really means "divination", but modern sword & sorcery fantasy has taken it to mean "magic"). "Zoemancy" would mean magic that has to do with life, the way "necromancy" is magic that has to do with death (which is arguably a subset of zoemancy, since it deals with just one facet of life, its cessation). Zoemancy is kind of a funky word, though. I actually like a word that Libris Mortis referred to that didn't get referenced again -- "entropic animancy". Sure, "animancy", unlike "zoemancy", mixes Latin and Greek, but we already do that with plenty of words ("television", for instance), and, c'mon, it's high fantasy, we can play around if we like. People will get the idea of "animancy" pretty clearly when you say it (as opposed to "zoemancy") and calling curative magic "ectropic animancy" and necromancy "entropic animancy" makes a great deal of sense, since it points out that the two things are the same process but done in opposite directions (fantasy likes the word "entropy" and its opposite, "ectropy", a lot, so why not use it?). Maybe then say that "necromancy" and "healing" are the common terms for what are more properly "entropic animancy" and "ectropic animancy". (Maybe then use the proper Greek term "zoemancy" for positive-energy animancy? I dunno.) I've also advanced the term "theurgy" as a good D&D term for magic dealing with life and death -- we already have the "Mystic Theurge", after all, and in real life "theurgy" connotes magic that has to do with the religious or spiritual, which is what life-and-death magic in D&D resembles. Any solution, though, is better than the incredibly clumsy idea of the Conjuration (Healing) school.
ArcTan 05-23-07, 01:44 AM	Yes, mundane real world bears. People in the Middle Ages actually thought that bears died in the winter and rose from the dead in the spring. So yes, bears count. This is one of the major reasons bears were thought of as "good" animals and therefore Werebears are stereotypically benevolent while, say, Werewolves are stereotypically malevolent, because wolves are less likely to hide inside their dens and sleep through the winter and more likely to range about looking for livestock to hunt and kill. Which means that, yes, D&D's LG Werebears and CE Werewolves are, in fact, related to this medieval tradition, so this tradition has precedent in D&D.
Lady Maedhros 05-23-07, 02:27 AM	Hm. Fascinating thread. I myself have long classed the (healing) subschool under necromancy, though I don't give cure spells to arcanists. (I do give them a corresponding soul theft/soul shift line, though, which hybridizes cure/inflict spells and the psionic empathic transfer set.) More recently, I've been contemplating creating a thread very much like this one myself; in my campaign, there is a nation bordering a blasted, cursed wildlands full of undead, and naturally, the inhabitants of that nation have mastered the school of necromancy in order to protect themselves from this scourge. Of course, 3.x as published has a heinous dearth of necromancy spells useful against undead, so I've had to make my own, something I'm not all that great at. I hope you don't mind, then, Devil Gnasher, my lurking on your thread and stealing your excellent new spells as you post them. :cool: So as not to be a total mooch, three of my own (not yet reviewed or playtested): Decay Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 feet + 5 ft/2 lvls) Target: One corpse or undead creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object) Spell Resistance: Yes By purging a body of its residual connections to the positive and negative energy planes, you remove all animating force and cause its very structure to collapse. Corpses subject to this spell dissolve into ash and fossilized bone and cannot be raised as undead. Undead subject to this spell must make a Fortitude save or be immediately reduced to 0 hit points, at which point they dissolve into unrecoverable ash as well. An undead with Turn Resistance applies that modifier to its saving throw against this spell. Restive Dirge Necromancy Level: Brd 4, Wiz/Sor 4 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Area: 25 foot radius spread, +5 ft/ 2 lvls Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes Evoking the cold call of the grave, restive dirge causes undead to balk and stall. Any undead in the area of a restive dirge spell must make a Will save or be dazed (can’t move or act, no penalty to AC). If an undead affected by restive dirge takes damage from a spell or attack or is subjected to a targeted effect, it receives a new saving throw. Every round that an undead is within the area of this spell, it must make a new save (if it is not already affected). If an undead leaves and re-enters the area, it must make another save as well. Mortality Necromancy Level: Time 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 lvls) Target: One living creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes When you cast this spell, you accelerate the aging process in a single individual, physically advancing them by one age category (a venerable creature targeted by this spell dies of old age and cannot be resurrected). Because they have merely been subjected to the physical rigors of age, and not the myriad experiences of the intervening years, their mental ability scores do not increase. Creatures targeted by this spell age according to their race; a middle-age 19th level elf monk might age 100 years but her ability scores would not change, while a dragon would grow in size and gain hit dice, but not gain new spells. Material focus: A tiny gold hourglass worth at least 900 gp. (Designer's note on mortality: this spell exists more for meta purposes than anything; it would be incredibly cruel to actually use, but it does a lovely job of discouraging players from rolling venerable dragonwrought kobold sorcs.)
Devil Gnasher 05-23-07, 01:29 PM	Hm. Fascinating thread. I myself have long classed the (healing) subschool under necromancy, though I don't give cure spells to arcanists. (I do give them a corresponding soul theft/soul shift line, though, which hybridizes cure/inflict spells and the psionic empathic transfer set.) More recently, I've been contemplating creating a thread very much like this one myself; in my campaign, there is a nation bordering a blasted, cursed wildlands full of undead, and naturally, the inhabitants of that nation have mastered the school of necromancy in order to protect themselves from this scourge. Of course, 3.x as published has a heinous dearth of necromancy spells useful against undead, so I've had to make my own, something I'm not all that great at. I hope you don't mind, then, Devil Gnasher, my lurking on your thread and stealing your excellent new spells as you post them. :cool: Which spells did you take? I'm not angry, I'm just curious. So as not to be a total mooch, three of my own (not yet reviewed or playtested): Decay Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 feet + 5 ft/2 lvls) Target: One corpse or undead creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object) Spell Resistance: Yes By purging a body of its residual connections to the positive and negative energy planes, you remove all animating force and cause its very structure to collapse. Corpses subject to this spell dissolve into ash and fossilized bone and cannot be raised as undead. Undead subject to this spell must make a Fortitude save or be immediately reduced to 0 hit points, at which point they dissolve into unrecoverable ash as well. An undead with Turn Resistance applies that modifier to its saving throw against this spell. Restive Dirge Necromancy Level: Brd 4, Wiz/Sor 4 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Area: 25 foot radius spread, +5 ft/ 2 lvls Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes Evoking the cold call of the grave, restive dirge causes undead to balk and stall. Any undead in the area of a restive dirge spell must make a Will save or be dazed (can’t move or act, no penalty to AC). If an undead affected by restive dirge takes damage from a spell or attack or is subjected to a targeted effect, it receives a new saving throw. Every round that an undead is within the area of this spell, it must make a new save (if it is not already affected). If an undead leaves and re-enters the area, it must make another save as well. I added both of these spells to the list, thank you. Mortality Necromancy Level: Time 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 lvls) Target: One living creature Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes When you cast this spell, you accelerate the aging process in a single individual, physically advancing them by one age category (a venerable creature targeted by this spell dies of old age and cannot be resurrected). Because they have merely been subjected to the physical rigors of age, and not the myriad experiences of the intervening years, their mental ability scores do not increase. Creatures targeted by this spell age according to their race; a middle-age 19th level elf monk might age 100 years but her ability scores would not change, while a dragon would grow in size and gain hit dice, but not gain new spells. Material focus: A tiny gold hourglass worth at least 900 gp. (Designer's note on mortality: this spell exists more for meta purposes than anything; it would be incredibly cruel to actually use, but it does a lovely job of discouraging players from rolling venerable dragonwrought kobold sorcs.) Actually this would count as black necromancy when used against non-true dragons.
Lady Maedhros 05-23-07, 02:29 PM	Which spells did you take? I'm not angry, I'm just curious. Bind undead and graft flesh, thus far. Bind undead is of course particularly useful, given I'm looking for anti-undead spells, but graft flesh is also very cool, as I do tend to hack my players' limbs off periodically. :devil: I added both of these spells to the list, thank you. No problem! Glad you liked 'em. Actually this would count as black necromancy when used against non-true dragons. Not that great for a true dragon either, since he ends up permanently behind in terms of spells and mental scores. Depending on how you stat kids/teenagers, though, it could be an interesting (if morally dubious) way to make effective child soldiers.
Devil Gnasher 05-23-07, 04:17 PM	Bind undead and graft flesh, thus far. Bind undead is of course particularly useful, given I'm looking for anti-undead spells, but graft flesh is also very cool, as I do tend to hack my players' limbs off periodically. :devil: I didn't make either of them. They were converted to Third edition by Nuemi on the Umbrasa Gravelands. No problem! Glad you liked 'em. Just making a list. That's all I'm doing. Not that great for a true dragon either, since he ends up permanently behind in terms of spells and mental scores. Depending on how you stat kids/teenagers, though, it could be an interesting (if morally dubious) way to make effective child soldiers. I have a villain that I'm trying to make who could this spell in children with out qualms or concern. Alignment: Vile Lawful Evil. She doesn't do Evil for kicks; she just doesn't care whom she harms along the way.
Devil Gnasher 08-27-07, 02:50 AM	This spell was made by Joltz. Original post found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2954349&postcount=4). Thank you Joltz. Cause Mutation Transmutation/Necromancy Sor/Wiz 6, Druid 5 Casting Time: 1 minute Target: 1 creature Duration: 2d6-1 days Effect: 1 or more mutations (see text) Save: Fortitude negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes This spell gradually alters a creature’s biological functions to produce mutations. When the spell’s duration runs out, the changes are complete and the mutation(s) take effect. Up to 1 mutation point/3 caster levels can be manipulated (created by drawback mutations or allotted to beneficial mutations) per casting. At the end of the spell, the subject becomes physically ill as the mutations manifest. The subject must make a fortitude save or become nauseated for an hour and take 2 points of constitution damage. A successful save reduces the effects to sickened for an hour (no con damage). If the subject willingly allowed this spell to be cast on them, the save DC is 10+spell level-other relevant modifiers instead of +other modifiers. Finally, there’s a 10% chance each casting that the subject will have an allergic reaction to the spell. For the duration of the spell, the subject becomes sickened anytime they perform a strenuous action and for 5 rounds afterward. If the subject makes a successful fortitude save (DC= normal save DC) they may act normally for one minute. This side effect manifests 2d4 hours after the spell is cast.
Devil Gnasher 12-11-07, 08:34 PM	The English word necromancy comes from the Greek word nekromanteia, which means corpse divination. So by the strictest sense of the word a necromancer would either by a spiritualist, if they used the corpses of the dead to converse with their souls, or magical forensic investigator. Since necromancy means more than this in D&D and general fantasy you could stretch to include animating the dead, causing harm to the living and even healing. The exact approach to necromancy would depend upon type of magic and class. A divine casting necromancer would recieve such powers from their god or similar powersource. On the other hand, a necromancer sorcerer would employ arcane power without the aid of higher powers or the inherent need of understanding of the powers he or she uses. At best this individual would be an intelligent and benevolent non-studious lay healer. At worst you have a village idiot absentmindedly creating a horde of the undead. While a wizard would be a magical scientist, using their intimate knowledge of biology produce magical effects on organic creatures such as healing or undead creation.
groveborn 12-12-07, 11:30 AM	The reason Healing is conjuration is because you summon (a conjuration!) positive energy at something. Anything dealing with Negative energy is Necromancy. The reason is in the name. Neco (dead) mancy (... actually it stems from divinations). 3.0, and with it, 3.5, made a distinction between positive and negative energy this way for a reason. Healing should not be necromancy, if anything it should be transmutation. Sort of. Necromancy is dealing with death, only death, and nothing but death. Necro means death. Not body, not metabolism, not healing. Death. Leave it at that.
Devil Gnasher 12-12-07, 04:23 PM	The reason Healing is conjuration is because you summon (a conjuration!) positive energy at something. Anything dealing with Negative energy is Necromancy. The reason is in the name. Neco (dead) mancy (... actually it stems from divinations). 3.0, and with it, 3.5, made a distinction between positive and negative energy this way for a reason. Healing should not be necromancy, if anything it should be transmutation. Sort of. Necromancy is dealing with death, only death, and nothing but death. Necro means death. Not body, not metabolism, not healing. Death. Leave it at that. The Greek word for death is thanatos not nekro from which we get the prefix necro-. Wizards of the Coast screwed up by making necromancy the all death school and puting healing under conjuration. Dictionary link (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/necromancy).
groveborn 12-12-07, 11:14 PM	The Greek word for death is thanatos not nekro from which we get the prefix necro-. Wizards of the Coast screwed up by making necromancy the all death school and puting healing under conjuration. Dictionary link (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/necromancy). And a little more research would indicate that Necromancy was descended from an entirely different word, one that I can't spell... That eventually became Negromancy, and then, necromancy. It's a very roundabout corrupt word meaning death. It originally dealt with spirits. Eventually associated with black arts, then death itself.
ArcTan 12-12-07, 11:54 PM	The Greek word for death is thanatos not nekro from which we get the prefix necro-. Wizards of the Coast screwed up by making necromancy the all death school and puting healing under conjuration. Dictionary link (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/necromancy). *sigh* No. The Greek word "thanatos" means *death*, yes, as in the act of dying. Thanatos was personified as the Greek equivalent of the Grim Reaper, the person who comes when you actually die. However, the word "necros" means the *dead* -- it literally means "corpse", and has the general sense of dead people or dead things *after* they have died. (Notice that the Greek god of *the dead*, Hades, is a totally different figure from Thanatos, the god of *death*. Thanatos comes to take you when you die -- when you *are* dead you spend eternity with Hades.) "Necromancy" is called necromancy because it involves communicating with dead people, or ghosts. Thanatomancy, if it existed, would mean trying to divine the future based on things happening while someone or something died. Necromancy is instead divination based on listening to people who *are dead*. Originally the "manteia" in "necromanteia" meant specifically divination. Later on, in the Middle Ages, the term got muddled to mean any kind of "magic", and "necromancy", which already had a taboo flavor (as anything associated with the dead and ghosts naturally would) came to be used as a catchall term for "black magic", including the *false* etymology "nigromancy" (the "nigro" meaning "black", but from a different language, Latin, and never occurring naturally until it was made up by medieval churchmen). In a sense WotC "screwed up" by making necromancy dissociated from divination, but in that sense they were only following the general usage of fantasy novels. Since fantasy novels have generally tended to use "necromancy" to mean bad, forbidden magic and "necromancers" to mean bad people, separating healing magic from the school called "necromancy" wasn't an odd choice at all.
ArcTan 12-12-07, 11:57 PM	And a little more research would indicate that Necromancy was descended from an entirely different word, one that I can't spell... Nekromanteia. Greek. "Necromancy" is a pretty direct Anglicization. That eventually became Negromancy, and then, necromancy. It's a very roundabout corrupt word meaning death. It originally dealt with spirits. Eventually associated with black arts, then death itself. No, "nekro" meaning "death" is not roundabout or corrupt at all. That's what it means. See words like "necrophile" and "necrosis". "Necromancy" is by far the more authentic term -- "negromancy" or "nigromancy" is an entirely made-up folk usage from medieval Europe that, in terms of actual classical etymology, is nonsensical (it's taking a *Latin* word for "black" and sticking it on a Greek word for *divination* -- not "magic" -- and coming up with "black magic").
groveborn 12-13-07, 04:54 PM	My apologies Arcy, I may have misinterpreted what I had read several days ago. Nonetheless, I agree with you, and disagree with this thread for the stated reasons that both you and I have made. Still, for those still wondering, there you have it. Necromancy has to deal with corpses, not with healing. Conjuration may be a poor school choice, but then again, all the rest are as bad. Perhaps a Healing school should have been made?
Devil Gnasher 12-15-07, 12:03 AM	Okay then, since necromancy means corpse divination it could be argued, for wizards of course, that knowledge from necromantic studies can used to magically perform surgery and cure disease. By magically studing dead tissue and organic material, necromancer wizards can develop new surgical procedures and cures for disease in the form of arcane healing. Of course the proper term would be necromancy and it derivatives but that be too long most to say all the time. So a comprimise could be made by changing the school's name from necromancy to necromagicos, literally meaning "corpse magic". It would include both necromancy and it's derivatives. Is that good enough?
ArcTan 12-15-07, 01:41 AM	Hey, whatever. It doesn't matter either way -- D&D's "Necromancy" is really obviously never going to match up to any real-life use of the term, because it refers to people doing things that, in real life, are impossible (and not even *thought* of as something that a real-life "magical practitioner" would attempt, since real-life magic's most salient quality is it doesn't provably work). I'm just saying that "Necromancy" has some pretty strong connotations in real life -- it's been used as a word to mean "evil magic" for centuries -- that you'll have a hard time getting rid of just by insisting it shouldn't mean that. The *real-life* term "necromancy" as used by the people who invented it -- the Greeks -- basically had the very specific meaning of communicating with the spirits of dead people about the future. What you're talking about -- medical study through the direct examination of corpses -- was something the ancient Greeks did, in fact, do -- they had physicians and anatomists -- but they didn't call it that (because literally examining corpses *physically* has nothing to do with "divination").
groveborn 12-15-07, 11:29 AM	I'll just reiterate: Necro=Dead. Can't get alive from dead. Can't get healing out of dead. Dead. D&D may have the term all wrong as far as history goes, but it's ok. Use Conjurations for healing, and Necromancy for making dead things.