Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zcorpio 05-25-06, 08:51 AM	This is a little spell-combo that was used by us a few days ago... We are a 17th level party, playing in FR. We had set out to slay a very old undead (quite special, and very intelligent). This undead named Ollestin, the baron of dread, was created in the time of Nethril to battle arcanists. Ollestin is (or was) a heavy fighter-type, and in all ways physical and designed with an god-awful spellresistance. (58 i belive we learned after the battle) So we suspected that our wizard would have absolutely no chance of penetrating that SR, and we felt quite sure that Ollestin would set me (the cleric) on quite the job to keep the fighters alive and standing. So this was what we did: After boosting the party for combat our wizard cast 2 limited wishes to emulate the effect of Shield other (the cleric spell), and then shapeshifted into a Planetar wich, among other things has regeneration 10. So for the entire combat he stood (or mostly laid) to the rear and tanked ½ the damage the fighters took, while the rest of us concentrated on slaying this foul undead. We are not 100% sure since he recived some healing, but at the end of the combat the dear little wizard had tanked somewhere near 1500 HP damage, possibly a little more... Wich the angelic form regenerated during, and (mostly) after the combat. :eek: Granted, this will not work against anyone that can dispell the spells, and the trick will not be repeated since after the session a house-rule was added to stop this from ever happening again...
runestar 05-25-06, 09:51 AM	Or you could have lobbed it with tons of elemental orb spells metamagicked up the whazoo... ;)
Despana 05-25-06, 09:53 AM	I love when DMs shoot down creative tactics that allow a PC to actually participate in an encounter. Let the wizard know I applaud his creativity. :clap:
bitnine 05-25-06, 10:18 AM	Granted, this will not work against anyone that can dispell the spells, and the trick will not be repeated since after the session a house-rule was added to stop this from ever happening again...I'm curious, what exactly was added in the way of a house rule?
CaoSlayer 05-25-06, 10:37 AM	I guess he is banning-downpowering shapechange, a wise thing in most cases.
Zcorpio 05-25-06, 11:32 AM	Nope, we agreed that shield other stops working/ends after the hit when the caster would become "technically dead". Eg. when he reaches -10 or lower HP. Also because we at a point during the session got the idea to have a couple of "pet-trolls" for the fighters. Each one would then cast shield other on one of the fighters with a magical item... Anyway, it probably wouldn't be a trick we would use again. To meet a opponment without any kind of dispelling effects is an exceedingly rare occurance in our campaign.
Seeker95 05-25-06, 12:38 PM	Creative. I like the approach. Although I believe the "very intelligent" undead would have recognized this and taken out the planetar directly. I disagree with the ruling on shield other, but agree that the DM has the right to do so.
Zcorpio 05-25-06, 12:51 PM	The undead couldn't get to the wizard since the hallway was blocked by a couple of walls of stone in the hallway in front of the wizard. And with 2 heavily buffed fighters at his heels he did not have the time to beat through the wall...
Seeker95 05-25-06, 01:25 PM	Very well thought out. I might even have awarded bonus experience for it. Still disagree with your DM's ruling on shield other.
Brand_X 05-25-06, 01:32 PM	This is a little spell-combo that was used by us a few days ago... We are a 17th level party, playing in FR. We had set out to slay a very old undead (quite special, and very intelligent). This undead named Ollestin, the baron of dread, was created in the time of Nethril to battle arcanists. Ollestin is (or was) a heavy fighter-type, and in all ways physical and designed with an god-awful spellresistance. (58 i belive we learned after the battle) So we suspected that our wizard would have absolutely no chance of penetrating that SR, and we felt quite sure that Ollestin would set me (the cleric) on quite the job to keep the fighters alive and standing. Consider the 4th level spell Assay Resistance - True Strike for SR - only +10 but every little bit helps. Combo - Assay Resistance and lower resistance - SR disappears. Brand X Generic GM
Ezell Pike 05-25-06, 01:47 PM	Very well thought out. I might even have awarded bonus experience for it. Still disagree with your DM's ruling on shield other. I'm with Seeker here. It was a very good idea. It is also ulikely to be overused especially against magic using enemies.
tarkin 05-25-06, 02:11 PM	The actual issue is a regeneration issue, not a shield other issue, or even a shapechange issue. Planetars can get into combat too you know. The question becomes what happens when you tie down a planetar and have orcs cut off pieces of him and eat him. I believe that we need a house rule that regeneration can only handle so much damage - eventually the person should be forced to take a "massive damage save". At the very least there should be a chance of insanity. I would House Rule it like this: Strict Game: If subdual damage > 2x hitpoints, save or go insane, Miracle/Wish cure you. If subdual damage > 3x hitpoints, save or die. Loose Game: If subdual damage > 3x hitpoints, save or go insane permanently (Miracle/Wish to restore your mind) > 10x, save or die. Power Game: If subdual damage > 5x hitpoints, save or go insane permanetly (Limited wish or better spell to restore your mind) > 15x save or die.
Thiez 05-25-06, 03:01 PM	Normal Game: If subdual damage > hitpoints, lose conciousness. That's it. Dont be crazy.
Wonton2006 05-25-06, 03:24 PM	Or you could have lobbed it with tons of elemental orb spells metamagicked up the whazoo... ;) I agree. Godly SR doesn't equal invunerable to magic. If all your wizard's spells allow SR, he didn't make very good spell choices. Orb spells are great. An empowered orb, also maximized with a Metamagic Rod of Maximize would deal a solid 135 damage if it hits, no save, no SR. If he wanted to be sure, he could have cast a Quickened True Strike beforehand. About the issue, though... Shapechange's cheap. Period. Your DM might want to look into the alternate PHB II rules.
Archtyrant Terevoth 05-25-06, 03:45 PM	About the issue, though... Shapechange's cheap. Period. Your DM might want to look into the alternate PHB II rules. Yeah, agreed.
tiercel 05-25-06, 11:14 PM	I love when DMs shoot down creative tactics that allow a PC to actually participate in an encounter.There are "no-SR" spells even in Core (many of them "battlefield control"), and plenty of buff spells. You don't have to tap into the scariness that is Regneration to contribute, or even the "joy" of Orb spells ("oh look, it's a 'magic immune' creature standing in an antimagic field, I'll just blast it to death with my magic"). In a Core game, you can still contribute. In a non-Core game, if spell selection chosen to take advantage, SR doesn't matter so much anymore it seems.
Vaelan 05-26-06, 12:35 AM	Nope, we agreed that shield other stops working/ends after the hit when the caster would become "technically dead". Eg. when he reaches -10 or lower HP. Regeneration transforms normal damage of most types into nonlethal damage which does not actually reduce your hitpoints. This has two implications: the character still dies when they reach -10 hitpoints and your houserule doesn't address the situation it was written for.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 05-26-06, 01:34 AM	We allowed only so much before regeneration chould not keep up. You chould only whip someone so far... Anyway once nonlethal damage exceeded your hit points you passed out like normal. But when you had 10 more nonlethal damage then your current hit points attacks delt lethal damage to you. We tried to do a "lethal damage delt this way can only be healed by regeneration when all nonlethal damage is removed", atleast intill the DM scraped that idea since it was more paper work for him. Just let the damage heal its self by rest, potions or spells. This basicly means it takes twice as much nonlethal damage to kill you vs lethal damage, and you cannot take 5,000 nonlethal damage and live to tell a tale... Do keep in mind that once nonlethal damage is above your hit points your helpless so you can be coup de graced.
Vedic Cold 05-26-06, 11:57 AM	Do keep in mind that once nonlethal damage is above your hit points your helpless so you can be coup de graced. True... but, per the RAW, only with an attack form that would normally do lethal damage.
Sphyre 05-26-06, 07:32 PM	I quite like that PCs creativity. I wish I had players that were that creative. Nor would I houserule it. The PC would have to know when to use it though, beacuse it would certainly be the death of him in many situations.
runestar 05-26-06, 10:47 PM	Planetar really is a nice polymorph choice though - few monsters are usually equipped to overcome alignment-based dr and regeneration, not to mention those phenomenal physical stat boosts.... :) Overall, I would say good application of a spell... ;)
BW0222 05-26-06, 11:41 PM	Zcorpio, Even if this worked, at 17th-level, I don't see how this would work. Your two friends move forward and are hit by a couple of empowered, maximized flamestrike (or some other spell). Even with save and some resistances, the average damage is about 140 hit points each. The host takes 140 hit points of damage (his half) and drops unconcious. Assuming he makes his massive damage fort-saves, he spends the rest of the combat unconcious. A goblin could walk up to him, put his head in a waterskin and drown him, cut his ring fingers off, stuff in a box and drop in a bog, etc. And if a black dragon comes along... you may not die from acid damage in his stomach, but you will drown, your equipment is toast, and the shapechange spell will end before you are ever concious.
runestar 05-27-06, 02:50 AM	And if a black dragon comes along... you may not die from acid damage in his stomach, but you will drown, your equipment is toast, and the shapechange spell will end before you are ever concious. No teleport? ;) Plus, not many dragons are that fond of swallowing players, at least not in my games... :P Plus, the OP has stated that his strategy was against a melee-heavy foe, probably with minimal magical support. I don't see where the empowered+maximised flamestrikes are coming from. In such a scenario, the enemy seeks to overwhelm the party with tons of damage, the OP party's strategy was geared towards countering that. Granted, I would probably have done things a little differently, but that did not mean his strategy was a stupid one. He sought to take advantage of a blatant weakness in the enemy's tactics, and was rewarded with an overwhelming victory. It's the same scenario as fighting the tarrasque. Play to its weaknesses and your own strengths. I say he deserves every last drop of xp and treasure from overcoming that encounter. :) He played smart, and thats the outcome. ;)