Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shatteredtower 11-22-04, 07:01 AM	So here's a fun one: Among its effects, unhallow provides the benefit of a magic circle against good to the site. A magic circle against good (and, by extension, unhallow) blocks any attempt to mentally control creatures within its area, which is further clarified to mean any effect that grants ongoing control (such as charm person or dominate person, rather than suggestion or cause fear). The spell further notes that this includes (suggesting that it is not limited to) enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects, but there are no other such effects capable of this unless you consider the spells mentioned in the third point valid candidates. Despite not being listed as mind-affecting spells, both command undead and control undead effectively grant ongoing control over the undead, even mindless undead. Aside from the fact that command undead does not include the [mind-affecting] descriptor and that it affects undead instead of people, its effects are otherwise almost identical to those granted by charm person (with the exception of being able to control mindless creatures, even to the extent of giving them suicidal orders). A literal reading suggests that the absence of the descriptor means that the spell is not mind-affecting, but the absence of that descriptor is the only thing that allows it to work on undead creatures in the first place. However, that may become academic when we consider the fourth point. If you refer to the entry for Evil Clerics and Undead in the PHB (pg 159), the entry for commanded undead creatures clearly states that they are "under the mental control of the cleric." Therefore, one can exercise mental control over a creature that is immune to mind-influencing effects. Conclusion: Undead creatures cannot be controlled, whether by spell or a cleric employing the ability to command undead creatures, within the area of an unhallow spell (or other spells granting similar effects for this purpose, including protection from chaos and hallow). They can, however, be rebuked, turned, or destroyed. This suggests that the last thing an evil cleric wants to do is bring controlled undead into the effect of an unhallow spell, making them a worse choice of guardian than they might otherwise be. Does anyone find fault with this reasoning?
Derren S. 11-22-04, 08:39 AM	Your fault is that you count controll/command undead as mind affecting spell while they are not and thus not blocked by protection from good.
Shatteredtower 11-22-04, 08:43 AM	Except that it doesn't have to be a mind-affecting spell to exert mental control over a creature (which is what protection from good prevents, rather than spells that have that descriptor) -- see point four.
The Abominable Darkling 11-22-04, 09:01 AM	I see no point in such semantic quibbling. Obviously unhallow is not intended to disrupt control over undead.
IMarvinTPA 11-22-04, 09:48 AM	I was under the impression that Protection from [alignment] only protect you from mind-affecting influences that originate from [alignment] aligned sources. Therefore, if you're good, casting Unhallow, and controling undead; what are you thinking!? If you're evil and you've been charmed by those good for nothing heros, you're now free and can charm them in return when they get near you. Or is my interpretation wrong? Yes, I'm wrong. Looked the spell up. It's a bad day when a true-neutral being dominates you. (Or not) IMarv Edit: Looked at the spell and found the mental thing is for all sources.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-22-04, 09:50 AM	also magic circle against X blocks effects from one side to the other. you cross the barrier then its useless
Keenath 11-22-04, 10:07 AM	From the SRD description of Protection from Evil: Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment. ShatteredTower is correct, and this is a definite unintended side effect of the Unhallow spell. This should be houseruled or errataed so that the Unhallow does not provide any protection against mental control. (This should be the case at any rate, because an evil cleric is much more likely to be using mind control in the first place. Evil types LIKE mind control.) Kirstar, that's incorrect. The first line of M C against Evil says: "All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell..." It's not just the edge that blocks the effect, every individual inside is affected as if you'd cast Prot from Evil on them.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-22-04, 10:17 AM	nah its a barrier,, step inside it and your toast.
green_yawgmoth 11-22-04, 10:28 AM	I see no point in such semantic quibbling. Obviously unhallow is not intended to disrupt control over undead.Quoted for emphasis. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 11:15 AM	So here's a fun one: Among its effects, unhallow provides the benefit of a magic circle against good to the site. A magic circle against good (and, by extension, unhallow) blocks any attempt to mentally control creatures within its area, which is further clarified to mean any effect that grants ongoing control (such as charm person or dominate person, rather than suggestion or cause fear). The spell further notes that this includes (suggesting that it is not limited to) enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects, but there are no other such effects capable of this unless you consider the spells mentioned in the third point valid candidates. Despite not being listed as mind-affecting spells, both command undead and control undead effectively grant ongoing control over the undead, even mindless undead. Aside from the fact that command undead does not include the [mind-affecting] descriptor and that it affects undead instead of people, its effects are otherwise almost identical to those granted by charm person (with the exception of being able to control mindless creatures, even to the extent of giving them suicidal orders). A literal reading suggests that the absence of the descriptor means that the spell is not mind-affecting, but the absence of that descriptor is the only thing that allows it to work on undead creatures in the first place. However, that may become academic when we consider the fourth point. If you refer to the entry for Evil Clerics and Undead in the PHB (pg 159), the entry for commanded undead creatures clearly states that they are "under the mental control of the cleric." Therefore, one can exercise mental control over a creature that is immune to mind-influencing effects. Conclusion: Undead creatures cannot be controlled, whether by spell or a cleric employing the ability to command undead creatures, within the area of an unhallow spell (or other spells granting similar effects for this purpose, including protection from chaos and hallow). They can, however, be rebuked, turned, or destroyed. This suggests that the last thing an evil cleric wants to do is bring controlled undead into the effect of an unhallow spell, making them a worse choice of guardian than they might otherwise be. Does anyone find fault with this reasoning? Yah I fault it. There are two definitions for "mental control". #1 - If I charm you, you are mentally controlled. Your mind is controlled. #2 - If you can direct my actions by thought, rather than speaking to me, you are exercising mental control. So the Unhallow will prevent mental control but not mental control. That is, I cannot become mentally controlled (charmed) but I can mentally control (issue mental commands). Perhaps the clerical section would be better suited with the wording "Clerics can mentally issue commands to the undead." It's a nice try though. But as stated: "unhallow is not intended to disrupt control over undead."
Keenath 11-22-04, 11:19 AM	Kirstar']nah its a barrier,, step inside it and your toast. Um... All right... did you a have any quotes to back that up, or are you just disagreeing for the sake of being contrary?
Keenath 11-22-04, 11:31 AM	Yah I fault it. There are two definitions for "mental control". ... So the Unhallow will prevent mental control but not mental control. That is, I cannot become mentally controlled (charmed) but I can mentally control (issue mental commands). Wow, so we're just going to deny that words mean what they mean, huh? The Prot from Evil spell doesn't say it only stops charm and domination effects. In fact, it says precisely the opposite: it blocks attempts to "exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects ... such as dominate person)." It blocks mental control INCLUDING charm and dominate, which indicates that there are other types that weren't mentioned. I'd say the cleric's control over undead is pretty clearly mental control, since the description of the ability SAYS it's mental control. It falls squarely under the spell's umbrella. I sort of agree with your sentiment, though -- that there is a difference between a spell that is altering how a creature's mind works -- that is "controlling its mind" -- and an ability that is basically just nonverbal transmission of your will. But on the other hand, the Protection from Evil spell is intended to block all mental contact that changes behavior, which would include an evil cleric's domination of his soulless, weak-willed undead minions. The problem is not in the Protection from Evil spell, but in the description of Unhallow. For that matter, in a Hallowed area, you probably WANT to destroy the ability to control undead! It's only in the unique case of the EVIL version that you'd want to avoid blocking mental controls. But as stated: "unhallow is not intended to disrupt control over undead." I don't think anyone is claiming it was intended to disrupt control. But if you follow the rules as written it does exactly that. I think every reasonable person will houserule that the spell doesn't block control over undead. In fact, it would be reasonable for Unhallow to not block mental control at all, for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. It's still important for DMs to be aware of the error so they don't get it sprung on them by a rules lawyer player.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-22-04, 11:41 AM	mainly from feel of the spell / effect of magic circle. you know, draw the whole circle on the floor bit
Derren S. 11-22-04, 11:46 AM	Wow, so we're just going to deny that words mean what they mean, huh? No, Phrennzy is right. The only thing PfG blocks is that someone is controlling your mind. But the cleric doesn't controll someones mind, he is controlling something with his mind. Both can be described as mind control, but PfG only blocks the first form, the one where a mind is controlled. PfG doesn't block all mental contact that changes behavior (like suggestion transferred via telepathy) it only blocks spells/abilities which completly controll ones mind. It can be argued that so it is impossible to control a vampire or other intelligent undead, but skelletons and zombies have no mind which can be controlled and therefore aren't protected by PfG.
Keenath 11-22-04, 11:48 AM	Kirstar']mainly from feel of the spell / effect of magic circle. you know, draw the whole circle on the floor bit "All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell..." I dunno how much clearer that can be. Every creature in the area, even your enemies, are protected from evil. If you are inside the field, you're protected. It just doesn't ususally help the enemy, because no evil caster in their right mind would use Protection From Evil. As for the drawing a circle on the floor, you know the MCAE can move, right? It's an emanation from a touched creature. If the creature moves, the effect moves too.
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 11:54 AM	Wow, so we're just going to deny that words mean what they mean, huh? :rolleyes:Uh, no, I'm just going to clarify what they mean. Ya know, how D&D often uses the same word to mean different things: 'level' is the perfect example.
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 11:57 AM	"Magic Circle" is a bad title for the spell - it makes it sounds as if the circle's boundry is some sort of barrier blocking line of effect, when really it is more like "Magic Emanation", or the good old' Protection From Evil 10' Radius. Ah, those were the days...
Harliquinn 11-22-04, 03:49 PM	Wow, so we're just going to deny that words mean what they mean, huh? It blocks mental control INCLUDING charm and dominate, which indicates that there are other types that weren't mentioned. I'd say the cleric's control over undead is pretty clearly mental control, since the description of the ability SAYS it's mental control. It falls squarely under the spell's umbrella. ... the Protection from Evil spell is intended to block all mental contact that changes behavior, which would include an evil cleric's domination of his soulless, weak-willed undead minions. The problem is not in the Protection from Evil spell, but in the description of Unhallow. I don't think anyone is claiming it was intended to disrupt control. But if you follow the rules as written it does exactly that. Actually it's really not a problem. If you look at the Type: Undead in the SRD, you will find: Undead —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Therefore, if your interpretation of how Unhallow (And Protection from Evil, etc) works is the correct one, then Undead would never have been subject to an Evil Cleric's Turning attempts, since: Evil Clerics and Undead Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded. If you read further, you'll note that half of the Evil Cleric's choices are some type of 'mental' control or command. Furthermore, one of the benefits of Unhallow actually increases the Cleric's chance to rebuke (A mind-affecting effect) is: Second, all turning checks made to turn undead take a –4 penalty, and turning checks to rebuke undead gain a +4 profane bonus. Conclusion: Given: 1) Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects 2) Evil Clerics can Rebuke and Command undead 3) Unhallow gives a bonus to Rebuke (Mind-Affecting) 4) Cleric's Turning is channeling positive/negative energy It follows that: 1) Undead are not immune to Cleric's mind-affecting turning attempts 2) Unhallow does not prevent a Cleric's mind-affecting turning attempts Hope this helps.
Keenath 11-22-04, 05:41 PM	I don't know where you got the idea that turning is a mind effect. Mental control is not necessarily a mind effect. It is in almost every case, but nowhere does it state "Commanding undead is a mind-affecting effect", which is does say any time it IS a mind effect. Because this case does not specifically state it, it follows that turning and rebuking are unique effects and do not have the mind-affecting descriptor. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Prot from Evil doesn't block it. PoE says it blocks "mental control", including charm and dominate, but the text never limits it to mind-affecting spells. I would definitely say that Protection from Evil (or whatever) would break a wizard's Command Undead spell, so why not a cleric's control?
smrtgmp 11-22-04, 08:15 PM	Evil types LIKE mind control. I'd say its more lawful than evil.
Phrennzy 11-22-04, 10:07 PM	I don't know where you got the idea that turning is a mind effect. Mental control is not necessarily a mind effect. It is in almost every case, but nowhere does it state "Commanding undead is a mind-affecting effect", which is does say any time it IS a mind effect. Right, I completely agree. Commanding is NOT a mind-affecting effect, because undead have no mind to affect. Because this case does not specifically state it, it follows that turning and rebuking are unique effects and do not have the mind-affecting descriptor. I'm cool with that too. They still have no mind. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Prot from Evil doesn't block it. PoE says it blocks "mental control", including charm and dominate, but the text never limits it to mind-affecting spells. Protection from Evil blocks the control of a mind. It does not affect the control a cleric has - even though that control is exercised by mental action by the cleric. I would definitely say that Protection from Evil (or whatever) would break a wizard's Command Undead spell, so why not a cleric's control? Eh, it wouldn't necessarily break Command Undead. That spell is Necromantic - for all we know it's the wizard controlling the flesh of the creature, not it's mind. Even if we allow that Command Undead is blocked, Turn/Rebuke Undead ability is a Supernatural Ability and operates under different rules, so that's an apple/orange argument.
Shatteredtower 11-23-04, 01:24 AM	Protection from Evil blocks the control of a mind. I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. The spell prevents any attempt to "...exercise mental control over the creature..." The clarification provided within the parenthesized section defines that as spells or effects that "...grant the caster ongoing control over the creature..." It says nothing about control of a mind at all. Therefore, as written, it does prevent evil clerics from commanding (but not rebuking) undead. Eh, it wouldn't necessarily break Command Undead. That spell is Necromantic - for all we know it's the wizard controlling the flesh of the creature, not its mind. Except that the spell states that intelligent undead will "perceive your words and actions in the most favourable way." I'm not sure what I'd make of a spell that could make me heed your advice because my skin thought you were really cool, you know? ;) Even if we allow that Command Undead is blocked, Turn/Rebuke Undead ability is a Supernatural Ability and operates under different rules, so that's an apple/orange argument. No, it's not, actually. Note that protection from evil says that it blocks any attempt to exercise mental control over the target -- it does not limit such attempts to spells or spell-like effects. I wouldn't mind being wrong about this, but I don't see it, based on a literal reading of all of the spells and abilities involved.
[GSV] Kirstar 11-23-04, 09:51 AM	You may designate whether the effect applies to all creatures, creatures that share your faith or alignment, or creatures that adhere to another faith or alignment here you are. you just specify the people you want to be protected ....
lion93 11-23-04, 10:29 AM	You know, this means that Unhallow stops Mage Hand too... because it allows you to pick things up with the power of your mind. or maybe it allows you to use mage hand, but not actually direct anything. "I can pick it up with magic, but I can't control where it goes! This place really IS evil!" the mental control exercised over mindless undead is like a puppeteer pulling strings. i don't think unhallow makes your remote control car stop working.
Shatteredtower 11-23-04, 11:34 AM	Kirstar'] You may designate whether the effect applies to all creatures, creatures that share your faith or alignment, or creatures that adhere to another faith or alignmenthere you are. you just specify the people you want to be protected .... It's a good recommendation, I admit, and thank you for the suggestion, but if you read the full paragraph, you'll see that the quote you provided applies only to a spell effect that's affixed to the unhallowed site, not the magic circle against good effect or the affect on turning checks (cleric version only). Again, I think it's a good suggestion for a fix, but it's not actually what the rules say. You know, this means that Unhallow stops Mage Hand too... because it allows you to pick things up with the power of your mind. That's not the case, because mage hand does not grant control over a creature. Once again, from the description of protection from evil: "...the barrier blocks any attempt to... exercise mental control over the creature..." Mage hand is not a creature, nor is flaming sphere. Undead, however, possessing both Wisdom and Charisma scores, are creatures, and thus protected against mental control by protection from evil -- and, by extension, unhallow.
spasheridan 11-23-04, 04:34 PM	I think we can try and rephrase the situation a little bit to make it more clear. In corner A we have a man and a vampire. The vampire dominates the man. This an obvious form of mind control. Luckily, if that man were in an unhallowed temple... the vampire would be unable to dominate the man because of the protection from good effect confered by the unhaloow. In corner B we have a skeleton and a cleric. The skeleton is controlled by the cleric. Better yet, let's not say cleric and say radio controlled car. More like mentally controlled, but you get the idea. The skeleton is a robot, not a man. While the skeleton is protected from good inside the unhallowed temple, and would be protected from a spell like "Control Undead" because protection from good stops spells like that, the radio control still works fine, and if another cleric walks into the evil temple and gets a stronger radio control set he can start drving the skeleton (by rebukng / commanding). Anywho, that's how it looks like it would work to me. Otherwise the spell description would specificly say "rebuking / commanding undead is impossble" instead of giving it a modifier. Since the spell specifily ALLOWS rebuking undead, commanding them this way must be permitted.
glowworm 11-23-04, 07:39 PM	i find the discussion amusing and entertaining. but i agree with the rulling evil clerics can not controll undead period. just like any spell that atempts to control undead fails. unhollow negates mental control even for undead as redundant as that is. having said that it dosent work like that in my game we just ignore that and allways have, we found it amusing when we actually read our books but completly ignored it :D
Someone 11-23-04, 07:59 PM	PfG doesn't stop the cleric from saying "get them!", or prevent the zombies from hearing the order, or stop the zombies from going after what the cleric said to get. The same would apply if a BBEG told their hired goons to do the same. Its not mind control if the subject was going to go along with it anyway. By an overwhelming demonstration of negative energy (the rebuke check) the cleric has given the undead a reason to go along with whatever the cleric orders. Whether the commands are issued verbally or mentally doesn't make a difference, the undead are still going to obey them. Its basicly like a disciplined military squad- the one in charge gives the order, the others do it.
glowworm 11-24-04, 01:05 AM	but the undead wouldent go along with it. your comparing undead with goons. undead are not goons they are undead things with a hatred for the living some hate more than others but they hate the living and want to kill those who live. if you take the raw there is no option for verbal commands it is mental control or zip :D
Gauze Fireforge 11-24-04, 01:49 AM	Actually it's really not a problem. If you look at the Type: Undead in the SRD, you will find: Therefore, if your interpretation of how Unhallow (And Protection from Evil, etc) works is the correct one, then Undead would never have been subject to an Evil Cleric's Turning attempts, since: If you read further, you'll note that half of the Evil Cleric's choices are some type of 'mental' control or command. Furthermore, one of the benefits of Unhallow actually increases the Cleric's chance to rebuke (A mind-affecting effect) is: Second, all turning checks made to turn undead take a –4 penalty, and turning checks to rebuke undead gain a +4 profane bonus. Conclusion: Given: 1) Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects 2) Evil Clerics can Rebuke and Command undead 3) Unhallow gives a bonus to Rebuke (Mind-Affecting) 4) Cleric's Turning is channeling positive/negative energy It follows that: 1) Undead are not immune to Cleric's mind-affecting turning attempts 2) Unhallow does not prevent a Cleric's mind-affecting turning attempts Hope this helps. Reading through this thread, all I could think of was what has been clearly sounded out Harliquinn. If undead are immune to mind affecting effects, then how could one control an undead with his turning attempts? Because the cleric effect isn't mind affecting. No where in the turning section does it say this is a mind affecting ability. Now yes, for an evil cleric to control undead, they need to excercise "mental control" over the undead but I feel this is being taken out of context in relation to protection from good, unhallow and similar effects. I like the suggestion that the cleric isn't controlling the undead's mind (since it has none), rather they are controlling the body as a whole. I am sure we can all see the intention of how these abilities and spells work together. Its just the ambiguity of the turning section regarding controlling undead through mental control. Common sense should rule all rule conflicts. Thats what flavour text is for. just my 2 copper pieces
Shatteredtower 11-24-04, 03:55 AM	Otherwise the spell description would specificly say "rebuking / commanding undead is impossble" instead of giving it a modifier. Since the spell specifily ALLOWS rebuking undead, commanding them this way must be permitted. Ah, but rebuking undead does not grant "ongoing control" over an undead creature -- commanding them does. Rebuking, like turning, is "fire and forget" -- you can't direct the undead at all. Likewise, charm person offers "ongoing control" but cause fear and suggestion do not. You can't issue new instructions with the latter spells -- or by rebuking the undead. Undead are creatures. Protection from evil clearly prevents attempts to exercise mental control over creatures. A rebuking attempt is not an attempt to exercise mental control, because you can't issue instructions or continue to influence actions beyond the initial effect. Commanding undead, however, is exercising ongoing mental control -- which is exactly what protection from evil (and, by extension, unhallow) declares it prevents. And is it common sense to say that this shouldn't work? Is immunity to mind control the sort of protection an undead priest would want against clerics and command undead spells (good luck on them working against the Will save)? Would evil clerics prefer a sanctuary where they or henchmen could avoid being dominated? You'd have to learn to work around such zones, but that's no different than shaping empty spaces at hidden key points in your forbiddance spell, to allow your allies to teleport about if they know where the "dead" zones are.