Analysis of the mechanics of Summon Swarm [Archive] - Wizards Community

Analysis of the mechanics of Summon Swarm [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Torpedo
03-13-04, 04:05 PM The Bard that I play is going to have access to another second level spell next level and I'm leaning heavily towards Summon Swarm.

I'd appreciate it if anyone who has experience with Summon Swarm in 3.5 would point out any errors in the following analysis.

My bard, Quinn, scores a 8 on his initiative roll.

The enemy spellcaster, Emrikol, scores a 10 on his initiative roll.

On initiative 10, Emrikol casts Hold Person against my party's Barbarian. Quinn recognizes Emrikol as a spellcaster.

On initiative 8, Quinn announces that he is delaying his action until Emrikol acts again.

On initiative 10 (round 2), Emrikol casts Magic Missile at my party's Monk. Quinn moves using a single move action to within range of Emrikol and begins casting Summon Swarm, which has a casting time of 1 round. As the battle is takng place at night, Quinn summons a bat swarm (3.5 Monster Manual page 237.)

On initiative 10 (round 3), the summoned swarm comes into being just before either Quinn or Emrikol's actions (according to the description of casting time on page 174).

Summon Swarm (page 289) allows the caster to "place" the swarm so that the space it occupies can be the same as space already occupied by other creatures.

So Quinn "places" the bat swarm (10ft. space) such that part of it occupies the same square as Emrikol (5ft. space). According to the spell description, the summoner has no control over who the swarm will target or the direction the swarm will travel, BUT the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest [living] creature.

Quinn chooses to maintain concentration on the spell for his round 3 action. Emrikol is now beginning his turn in the midst of 5,000 bloodthirsty bats so he faces the swarm's extraordinary Distraction ability DC 11. Emrikol scores a 14 on his Fortitude save and is not nauseated. Emrikol now attempts to move out of the swarm a single move action (30ft.) and cast a defensive spell.

So here's my first major question, does the swarm move with Emrikol?

Reasons why I think it would: 1) The swarm attacks or pursues the nearest living creature. 2) Emrikol started his move in a square occupied by the swarm. 3) Both Emrikol and the swarm are acting simultaneously on initiative 10 and therefore move together (since Emrikol will still be the nearest living creature).

Assuming that the swarm did move with Emrikol, a bat swarm has a flying speed of 40ft., enough to keep up with Emrikol. At the end of the swarm's move, Emrikol takes 1d6 points of damage (5 points). Emrikol attempts to cast Mirror Image, but as he has taken damage while casting, he must succeed at a Concentration check DC 17 (10 + spell level 2 + damage 5). Emrikol scores a 13 on his Concentration check and his spell is lost.

On initiative 10 (round 4) Emrikol is once again beginning his turn in the midst of a swarm, so he must make a Fortitude save versus the swarms Distraction ability. Emrikol scores a 9 on his saving throw and is now nauseated (Players Hanbook glossary page 310) for one round. Emrikol can only make a single move action this turn. Realizing that he can't cast, and can't outrun the swarm, he moves a single move and occupies a square next to one his henchman who has been keeping my party's Ranger occupied. Quinn maintains concentration on the spell.

Assuming that swarm continues to move with Emrikol, it now ends its turn occupying 4 squares (10ft. space), 3 of which are occupied by Emrikol, his henchman, and my party's Ranger. So, all three living creatures would suffer 1d6 points of damage.

Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all?

On initiative 3 (round 4) the henchman runs out of the swarm (withdrawing so as not to provoke an attack of opportunity from the Ranger.)

On initiative 18 (round 5) the Ranger runs out of the swarm.

On initiative 10 (round 5) Emrikol is facing the same problems as before.

Ok, hopefully the above has been clear. Now I've got a few wrinkles which lead to questions.

What if Emrikol had made his Concentration check in Round 3 and successfully cast Mirror Image? A bat swarm has the extraordinary ability of Blindsense so would that allow them to locate and follow the true Emrikol? What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility?

What if on Round 4, Emrikol delayed his action until the Ranger acts? In other words, on initiative 10 Emrikol chose to delay after becoming nauseated. The swarm had no need to move, so only Emrikol took the 1d6 points of damage.

On initiative 3 (round 4) the henchman attacks the Ranger.

On initiative 18 (round 5) the Ranger attacks the henchman and Emrikol moves out of the swarm to occupy the square next to his henchman.

On initiative 10 (round 5) Quinn maintains concentration and the swarm moves to encompass Emrikol, the henchman, and the Ranger. All take 1d6 points of damage.

On initiative 3 (round 5) the henchman saves vs. Distraction and takes a double move (60ft.) to get away from the swarm.

On initiative 18 (round 6) both Emrikol and the Ranger save vs. Distraction and take double moves (60ft.) to get away from the swarm.

On initiative 10 (round 6) the swarm now has to find the nearest living creature to attack.

If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue? I'm assuming a random determination.

I apologize for the length of this post. Thanks ahead of time for any feedback and / or corrections to this analysis.
Servant
03-13-04, 07:47 PM Some answers I know:

1) A spell with a 1-round casting time requires a full-round action to cast, so Quinn can't move and cast the spell in the same round.

2) Two creatures never act simultaneously. Initiative ties are broken first by initiative modifier, then randomly. The swarm acts either before or after Emrikol, but can't move at the same time, so he doesn't take damage while casting if he leaves the swarm first.

3) Blindsense allows creatures to recognize what square an unseen creature or object is in, if within range. Emrikol moved out of range, so visual illusions might confuse them at the DM's discretion.
Unda Harvum
03-13-04, 09:46 PM Besides that:

if you delay an action until something happens, your action happens just after the one you delayed for - in this case your summoning would start after the Magic Missile casting in round 2, and the bats would arrive just after Emrikols next round, and will have no effect on him until the next round (unless Emrikol were trying to cast a 1-round spell himself).

The good thing is, you don't have to say before what you delay for - you can simply take your turn whenever you want.

If Quinn had instead readied an action against Emrikols spellcasting, then the readied action would have happened before (or during, in regard to interrupting a spell) Emrikols turn. (Quinn couldn't have readied casting a 1-round spell, though you can only ready a standard action). And he would act just before Emrikol in the next round. The danger would be, he might lose his readied action (if the condition he was readying for never occurred).

The initiative numbers are really irrelevant - what is important is who goes acts before whom.
lanilifar
03-14-04, 12:59 AM (Quinn couldn't have readied casting a 1-round spell, though you can only ready a standard action).
Well, I don't know if this holds true in 3.5, but in 3.0 you could ready to start casting a 1 round spell, but would have to spend your next turn completing the casting. This way you could, in round 2, move, start casting summon swarm, then in round three finish casting summon swarm, then move again.
Seeker95
03-14-04, 07:30 AM What lanilifar described works the same under 3.5 rules as well.
Bloodtide_the_Red
03-14-04, 10:16 AM .........Does the swarm move to follow a target?
More or less. The spell description does say it prusues targets, so there is no reason why the swarm that was 'around' a target would not move with them, or at least follow them.
You could get out of the swarm though, if the target goes first(as was said no one can go at the same time). It would be possoble to move 30 feet and cast a spell, the swarm does not 'catch up' until their move.

..........it now ends its turn occupying 4 squares (10ft. space), 3 of which are occupied by Emrikol, his henchman, and my party's Ranger.
This does not sound right, but maybe it's just the way you describe it. The bat swarm, in your example, takes up only a space/square. It does not spread out to cover more then that. In general it will only effect one creature, though it mightbe possible to have several smaller creatures effected.

..........Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all?
By the book, any time you must roll for an effect, you roll a seperate one for each effected creature. Though most DM's just use the house rule of one roll for all as it saves time.

........................successfully cast Mirror Image?
Mirror Image would work. The swarm can be 'fooled' as any creature(s) can by an illusion. Bat's have no ability to see through illusions.

A bat swarm has the extraordinary ability of Blindsense so would that allow them to locate and follow the true Emrikol? What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility?
Blindsense does not look as if it's any help vs invisibility. Mirror Image gets trickery, though by the book the would be fooled. You could house rule that the bat can 'detect living' beings somehow, though you could counter that the figments can fooll that sense too.

..............If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue?
Yea, just random

BT
Boondoggle
03-14-04, 11:23 AM Does the swarm move with Emrikol?
As much as you would like it to, swarms don't behave that way. There is no simultaneous initiative so the only way for it to move would be to ready an action, which would deny it the ability to make its attack (which, in my interpretation, still requires a standard action, despite poor wording in the MM).

Also, because you delayed your action instead of readying it, the swarm will be acting on your initiative, after Emrikol. Had you instead readied an action to begin casting the spell when Emrikol cast his spell, you would be acting just before him and would be able to again ready an action to complete your spell as he tries to cast in order to force a concentration check.

To readying a spell in such a way, you would, on initiative 8 in round 1, move into range and use your standard action to ready the "start full-round action" standard action, in this case, casting summon swarm, to trigger just before Emrikol acts. Then, on initiative 10 in round 2, you would start casting your spell just before Emrikol acts. He would cast his magic missile. On round 3 your initiative would happen before his and you would use your standard action to ready the "complete full-round action" standard action to summon the swarm "if he starts casting a spell". Should Emrikol then start to cast his mirror image, the swarm would appear and use its action to damage him (for 5 points). Emrikol would then have to make a concentration check DC 17. After he attempts his spell, he can then use a move action to leave the swarm. The next round, the swarm would act just before you and probably follow Emrikol and deal him 1d6 more damage. He would then (in round 4) have to make the Distraction fort save or be nauseated.

However, by choosing to delay untill after Emrikol acted, you essentially completely forfited one round. I think what you intended to do was to delay untill just before his action which would be initiative 11 on round 2, use your move action to get within range and use your standard action to "start full-round action." Then, he would cast his magic missile. The following round, on your turn, you need to use your standard action to "complete full-round action" and thus make the swarm appear with Emrikol in it. It would immediately act and deal 5 points of damage to him, ending its turn and leaving you with a move action to run away. Emrikol would then have to make the fort save for being in the swarm at the start of his turn, but then would be free to move out of the swarm or even cast his mirror image within the swarm without having to make a concentration check since "swarms never make attacks of opportunity."

If Emrikol moved, on the following round (before your action), the swarm would probably chase him and deal another 1d6 damage plus one from its wounding ability. You would act next, then it would be Emrikol's turn. He would again have to make a fort save for starting his turn in the swarm. If he tries to cast a spell, he will have to succeed a concentration check of DC 11+spell level due to the wounding ability (1/2 of 1 could be interpreted to be 0, but I assumed a minimum of 1).

Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all?
Roll a seperate d6. This isn't an area spell, but a whole bunch of little bats and they wouldn't affect everybody equally.

What if Emrikol had made his Concentration check in Round 3 and successfully cast Mirror Image?
The spell would be irrelevant. Swarms damage every creature in the space they occupy. I wouldn't allow a swarm to 'destroy' the mirror images, but it wouldn't be affected by them.

What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility?
If the he was still in the range of the swarms blindsense, it would be able to locate him and move into his square. If not, it would move toward the closest living creature it could see but might be diverted to Emrikol if, during the swarm's movement, it moves close enough to detect him with its blindsense.

If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue?
This is a DM call, really. I would either do it randomly or have it follow the blood trail of its wound ability if one of the creatures is affected and the other isn't.

Hope all this rambling was helpful.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Torpedo 03-13-04, 04:05 PM	The Bard that I play is going to have access to another second level spell next level and I'm leaning heavily towards Summon Swarm. I'd appreciate it if anyone who has experience with Summon Swarm in 3.5 would point out any errors in the following analysis. My bard, Quinn, scores a 8 on his initiative roll. The enemy spellcaster, Emrikol, scores a 10 on his initiative roll. On initiative 10, Emrikol casts Hold Person against my party's Barbarian. Quinn recognizes Emrikol as a spellcaster. On initiative 8, Quinn announces that he is delaying his action until Emrikol acts again. On initiative 10 (round 2), Emrikol casts Magic Missile at my party's Monk. Quinn moves using a single move action to within range of Emrikol and begins casting Summon Swarm, which has a casting time of 1 round. As the battle is takng place at night, Quinn summons a bat swarm (3.5 Monster Manual page 237.) On initiative 10 (round 3), the summoned swarm comes into being just before either Quinn or Emrikol's actions (according to the description of casting time on page 174). Summon Swarm (page 289) allows the caster to "place" the swarm so that the space it occupies can be the same as space already occupied by other creatures. So Quinn "places" the bat swarm (10ft. space) such that part of it occupies the same square as Emrikol (5ft. space). According to the spell description, the summoner has no control over who the swarm will target or the direction the swarm will travel, BUT the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest [living] creature. Quinn chooses to maintain concentration on the spell for his round 3 action. Emrikol is now beginning his turn in the midst of 5,000 bloodthirsty bats so he faces the swarm's extraordinary Distraction ability DC 11. Emrikol scores a 14 on his Fortitude save and is not nauseated. Emrikol now attempts to move out of the swarm a single move action (30ft.) and cast a defensive spell. So here's my first major question, does the swarm move with Emrikol? Reasons why I think it would: 1) The swarm attacks or pursues the nearest living creature. 2) Emrikol started his move in a square occupied by the swarm. 3) Both Emrikol and the swarm are acting simultaneously on initiative 10 and therefore move together (since Emrikol will still be the nearest living creature). Assuming that the swarm did move with Emrikol, a bat swarm has a flying speed of 40ft., enough to keep up with Emrikol. At the end of the swarm's move, Emrikol takes 1d6 points of damage (5 points). Emrikol attempts to cast Mirror Image, but as he has taken damage while casting, he must succeed at a Concentration check DC 17 (10 + spell level 2 + damage 5). Emrikol scores a 13 on his Concentration check and his spell is lost. On initiative 10 (round 4) Emrikol is once again beginning his turn in the midst of a swarm, so he must make a Fortitude save versus the swarms Distraction ability. Emrikol scores a 9 on his saving throw and is now nauseated (Players Hanbook glossary page 310) for one round. Emrikol can only make a single move action this turn. Realizing that he can't cast, and can't outrun the swarm, he moves a single move and occupies a square next to one his henchman who has been keeping my party's Ranger occupied. Quinn maintains concentration on the spell. Assuming that swarm continues to move with Emrikol, it now ends its turn occupying 4 squares (10ft. space), 3 of which are occupied by Emrikol, his henchman, and my party's Ranger. So, all three living creatures would suffer 1d6 points of damage. Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all? On initiative 3 (round 4) the henchman runs out of the swarm (withdrawing so as not to provoke an attack of opportunity from the Ranger.) On initiative 18 (round 5) the Ranger runs out of the swarm. On initiative 10 (round 5) Emrikol is facing the same problems as before. Ok, hopefully the above has been clear. Now I've got a few wrinkles which lead to questions. What if Emrikol had made his Concentration check in Round 3 and successfully cast Mirror Image? A bat swarm has the extraordinary ability of Blindsense so would that allow them to locate and follow the true Emrikol? What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility? What if on Round 4, Emrikol delayed his action until the Ranger acts? In other words, on initiative 10 Emrikol chose to delay after becoming nauseated. The swarm had no need to move, so only Emrikol took the 1d6 points of damage. On initiative 3 (round 4) the henchman attacks the Ranger. On initiative 18 (round 5) the Ranger attacks the henchman and Emrikol moves out of the swarm to occupy the square next to his henchman. On initiative 10 (round 5) Quinn maintains concentration and the swarm moves to encompass Emrikol, the henchman, and the Ranger. All take 1d6 points of damage. On initiative 3 (round 5) the henchman saves vs. Distraction and takes a double move (60ft.) to get away from the swarm. On initiative 18 (round 6) both Emrikol and the Ranger save vs. Distraction and take double moves (60ft.) to get away from the swarm. On initiative 10 (round 6) the swarm now has to find the nearest living creature to attack. If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue? I'm assuming a random determination. I apologize for the length of this post. Thanks ahead of time for any feedback and / or corrections to this analysis.
Servant 03-13-04, 07:47 PM	Some answers I know: 1) A spell with a 1-round casting time requires a full-round action to cast, so Quinn can't move and cast the spell in the same round. 2) Two creatures never act simultaneously. Initiative ties are broken first by initiative modifier, then randomly. The swarm acts either before or after Emrikol, but can't move at the same time, so he doesn't take damage while casting if he leaves the swarm first. 3) Blindsense allows creatures to recognize what square an unseen creature or object is in, if within range. Emrikol moved out of range, so visual illusions might confuse them at the DM's discretion.
Unda Harvum 03-13-04, 09:46 PM	Besides that: if you delay an action until something happens, your action happens just after the one you delayed for - in this case your summoning would start after the Magic Missile casting in round 2, and the bats would arrive just after Emrikols next round, and will have no effect on him until the next round (unless Emrikol were trying to cast a 1-round spell himself). The good thing is, you don't have to say before what you delay for - you can simply take your turn whenever you want. If Quinn had instead readied an action against Emrikols spellcasting, then the readied action would have happened before (or during, in regard to interrupting a spell) Emrikols turn. (Quinn couldn't have readied casting a 1-round spell, though you can only ready a standard action). And he would act just before Emrikol in the next round. The danger would be, he might lose his readied action (if the condition he was readying for never occurred). The initiative numbers are really irrelevant - what is important is who goes acts before whom.
lanilifar 03-14-04, 12:59 AM	(Quinn couldn't have readied casting a 1-round spell, though you can only ready a standard action). Well, I don't know if this holds true in 3.5, but in 3.0 you could ready to start casting a 1 round spell, but would have to spend your next turn completing the casting. This way you could, in round 2, move, start casting summon swarm, then in round three finish casting summon swarm, then move again.
Seeker95 03-14-04, 07:30 AM	What lanilifar described works the same under 3.5 rules as well.
Bloodtide_the_Red 03-14-04, 10:16 AM	.........Does the swarm move to follow a target? More or less. The spell description does say it prusues targets, so there is no reason why the swarm that was 'around' a target would not move with them, or at least follow them. You could get out of the swarm though, if the target goes first(as was said no one can go at the same time). It would be possoble to move 30 feet and cast a spell, the swarm does not 'catch up' until their move. ..........it now ends its turn occupying 4 squares (10ft. space), 3 of which are occupied by Emrikol, his henchman, and my party's Ranger. This does not sound right, but maybe it's just the way you describe it. The bat swarm, in your example, takes up only a space/square. It does not spread out to cover more then that. In general it will only effect one creature, though it mightbe possible to have several smaller creatures effected. ..........Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all? By the book, any time you must roll for an effect, you roll a seperate one for each effected creature. Though most DM's just use the house rule of one roll for all as it saves time. ........................successfully cast Mirror Image? Mirror Image would work. The swarm can be 'fooled' as any creature(s) can by an illusion. Bat's have no ability to see through illusions. A bat swarm has the extraordinary ability of Blindsense so would that allow them to locate and follow the true Emrikol? What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility? Blindsense does not look as if it's any help vs invisibility. Mirror Image gets trickery, though by the book the would be fooled. You could house rule that the bat can 'detect living' beings somehow, though you could counter that the figments can fooll that sense too. ..............If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue? Yea, just random BT
Boondoggle 03-14-04, 11:23 AM	Does the swarm move with Emrikol? As much as you would like it to, swarms don't behave that way. There is no simultaneous initiative so the only way for it to move would be to ready an action, which would deny it the ability to make its attack (which, in my interpretation, still requires a standard action, despite poor wording in the MM). Also, because you delayed your action instead of readying it, the swarm will be acting on your initiative, after Emrikol. Had you instead readied an action to begin casting the spell when Emrikol cast his spell, you would be acting just before him and would be able to again ready an action to complete your spell as he tries to cast in order to force a concentration check. To readying a spell in such a way, you would, on initiative 8 in round 1, move into range and use your standard action to ready the "start full-round action" standard action, in this case, casting summon swarm, to trigger just before Emrikol acts. Then, on initiative 10 in round 2, you would start casting your spell just before Emrikol acts. He would cast his magic missile. On round 3 your initiative would happen before his and you would use your standard action to ready the "complete full-round action" standard action to summon the swarm "if he starts casting a spell". Should Emrikol then start to cast his mirror image, the swarm would appear and use its action to damage him (for 5 points). Emrikol would then have to make a concentration check DC 17. After he attempts his spell, he can then use a move action to leave the swarm. The next round, the swarm would act just before you and probably follow Emrikol and deal him 1d6 more damage. He would then (in round 4) have to make the Distraction fort save or be nauseated. However, by choosing to delay untill after Emrikol acted, you essentially completely forfited one round. I think what you intended to do was to delay untill just before his action which would be initiative 11 on round 2, use your move action to get within range and use your standard action to "start full-round action." Then, he would cast his magic missile. The following round, on your turn, you need to use your standard action to "complete full-round action" and thus make the swarm appear with Emrikol in it. It would immediately act and deal 5 points of damage to him, ending its turn and leaving you with a move action to run away. Emrikol would then have to make the fort save for being in the swarm at the start of his turn, but then would be free to move out of the swarm or even cast his mirror image within the swarm without having to make a concentration check since "swarms never make attacks of opportunity." If Emrikol moved, on the following round (before your action), the swarm would probably chase him and deal another 1d6 damage plus one from its wounding ability. You would act next, then it would be Emrikol's turn. He would again have to make a fort save for starting his turn in the swarm. If he tries to cast a spell, he will have to succeed a concentration check of DC 11+spell level due to the wounding ability (1/2 of 1 could be interpreted to be 0, but I assumed a minimum of 1). Do I roll a separate d6 for each creature or apply one roll to all? Roll a seperate d6. This isn't an area spell, but a whole bunch of little bats and they wouldn't affect everybody equally. What if Emrikol had made his Concentration check in Round 3 and successfully cast Mirror Image? The spell would be irrelevant. Swarms damage every creature in the space they occupy. I wouldn't allow a swarm to 'destroy' the mirror images, but it wouldn't be affected by them. What if Emrikol had cast Invisibility? If the he was still in the range of the swarms blindsense, it would be able to locate him and move into his square. If not, it would move toward the closest living creature it could see but might be diverted to Emrikol if, during the swarm's movement, it moves close enough to detect him with its blindsense. If the nearest creatures are equal distance from the swarm, which one does the swarm pursue? This is a DM call, really. I would either do it randomly or have it follow the blood trail of its wound ability if one of the creatures is affected and the other isn't. Hope all this rambling was helpful.