Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 10-27-06, 11:02 AM	Q: The ultimate magus's Expanded Spell Knowledge class feature (from Complete Mage) lets you add an arcane spell from your spellbook to another arcane class's list of spells known. Does this ability allow you to add a spell not on your second arcane casting's class spell list? For example, could a wizard/bard/ultimate magus choose to add magic missile to their list of bard spells, or could they only add a spell that's already on the bard's spell list? --Greg A: The spell must be on the spells known list for the second class. It's not really a game balance issue -- it's not overpowered for a wizard/bard/ultimate magus to use bard slots to cast magic missile -- but rather that some spells are designed to work only for prepared-spell casters, and thus don't function appropriately for spontaneous casters. If the player and DM can agree to avoid any spell designed only for prepared-spell casters, it's perfectly fine as a house rule to allow the ultimate magus to add wizard spells to her bard spell list, or whatever. --Andy Collins I don't have my book with me right now, but does Andy Collins seem a little off base if not flat out wrong in his response? The text for the Ultimate Magus' Expanded Spell Knowledge class feature has no limitation whatsoever (that I could find) about what spell list the spell is from. After all, the optimization guys have been transferring sorcerer/wizard spells to the beguiler/bard spell lists for weeks now, and they don't miss much. :rolleyes: So, who's wrong? Andy? Or me and all of the optimization forums? :confused:
jaelis 10-27-06, 11:40 AM	Andy is explaining the intent of the rule, and he does it pretty well, I'd say. As for whether his answer conflicts with the text of the rule, I guess it depends. Does it say you can add the new spell to the spontaneous casting class spell list, or just to the list of spells known? Because (following Tarkin's Extra Spell logic), it doesn't do any good to add a spell to your list of spells known if you don't have an appropriate spell slot to cast it.
risner 10-27-06, 04:01 PM	So, who's wrong? Andy? Or me and all of the optimization forums? :confused: You and all of the optimization forums. It is the same issue as Extra Spell. They (WotC) may need to add additional text to all abilities that modify spells known to prevent some people from trying to do things they shouldn't be able to do. In other words, they need to add "This [thing] does not add spells to the spells known list if it does not exist on the class spell list." If they did, I can see the future. There will be a blurb near all move actions saying "you can only take 1 move or 2 move actions per round if you sacrifice your ability to take a standard action or full round action" and other silly additional text that isn't needed. Nothing adds to the class spell list unless it specifically says it adds to class spell list.
wizard of Newfoundland 10-27-06, 09:34 PM	:weep: So since i'm playing a Beguiler/Wiz this ability is useless to me?:weep:
Shatteredtower 10-27-06, 10:48 PM	It is unless your DM chooses to rule other than Mr. Collins has. I have to admit that I'm in agreement with his ruling about how it's supposed to play by the book. If it was intended to allow free access to spells from other class lists, it would say so. The precedent in this case comes from the wording of the Expanded Knowledge feat in the XPH, which states: "You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline's class list or even from another class's list." (... "class's..."? I need to review my grammar, then see if this is just one of those Canadian/American differences.) The option to grab powers from another list is spelled out in very specific detail here. No such option is listed for the ultimate magus' expanded spell knowledge class feature, nor for Complete Arcane's Extra Spell feat -- though one is left to wonder what meaning there can be to the statement, "For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research." (Mr. Collin's ruling appears to suggest that the feat is intended to let a wizard's player thumb his nose at a DM that banned fly, teleport, or any number of wizard spells from the game, since it's the only way a wizard/sorcerer spell would otherwise be beyond the reach of both automatic learning each level and spell research.) Having said that, note that Mr. Collins does not consider the alternative option to be unbalanced. Neither do I, though I'd reserve the right to examine it on a case by case basis. (If a wizard wanted to invest in the feat to add holy word, resurrection, or unhallow to his spell book, I'd allow it, so there probably aren't that many core spells I'd prohibit. It goes against my tastes, but it's not worth a fight.)
Vaelan 10-28-06, 02:30 AM	Primary Source blah blah I'm sure you all know the drill.
Vanigo 10-28-06, 03:49 PM	If they did, I can see the future. There will be a blurb near all move actions saying "you can only take 1 move or 2 move actions per round if you sacrifice your ability to take a standard action or full round action" and other silly additional text that isn't needed. It doesn't have to. There's a general rule on the subject. Is there a rule somewhere that you can only cast spells on your spell list? (Now, divine spellcasters definetly can't use Extra Spell or anything similar, because they don't actually have spells known. But that's another matter entirely.) ...Actually, I'm looking, and I can't find anything that specifically prohibits a wizard from learning or casting a non-wizard spell from any other source, either. And that is stupid.
Lafing Cat 10-28-06, 07:00 PM	It doesn't have to. There's a general rule on the subject. Is there a rule somewhere that you can only cast spells on your spell list? (Now, divine spellcasters definetly can't use Extra Spell or anything similar, because they don't actually have spells known. But that's another matter entirely.) ...Actually, I'm looking, and I can't find anything that specifically prohibits a wizard from learning or casting a non-wizard spell from any other source, either. And that is stupid. The general rule is right in the Wizard class description. A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. Emphasis mine. It doesn't say "which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list *and* any other place the wizard wants to" after all.
Vanigo 10-28-06, 08:18 PM	The general rule is right in the Wizard class description. Emphasis mine. It doesn't say "which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list *and* any other place the wizard wants to" after all. Ah, thought I was missing something. ... That's interesting. Over in the Sorcerer's class description, it says their spells are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Of course, it also says they can only learn spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but that's a general rule, so more specific rules can trump it.
risner 10-28-06, 10:14 PM	Over in the Sorcerer's class description, it says their spells are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Of course, it also says they can only learn spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but that's a general rule, so more specific rules can trump it. There is an article in a Dragon (issue #326 iirc) Sorcerer class section called "Unusual Spells". They go into detail that sorcerer can learn non wiz/sorc spells via feats such as the bloodline feats (that grant 9 new spells to spells known.) You need a feat to learn these "unusual" spells.
sparkster4242 10-29-06, 04:55 PM	The difference between Extra Spell and Expanded Spell Knowledge is very simple - Extra Spell allows the character to learn a new spell, while Expanded Spell Knowledge bypasses the learning process, and adds the spell directly to a list of spells known. Because Expanded Spell Knowledge does not require the character to _learn_ the spell as a spontaneous caster, it is not subject to limitations on which spells he can _learn_. perhaps this is not how the Sage feels it _should_ work, but as written, Expanded Spell Knowledge is not subject to class-spell list limits.
Raven Dark 10-29-06, 08:16 PM	The difference between Extra Spell and Expanded Spell Knowledge is very simple - Extra Spell allows the character to learn a new spell, while Expanded Spell Knowledge bypasses the learning process, and adds the spell directly to a list of spells known. Because Expanded Spell Knowledge does not require the character to _learn_ the spell as a spontaneous caster, it is not subject to limitations on which spells he can _learn_. perhaps this is not how the Sage feels it _should_ work, but as written, Expanded Spell Knowledge is not subject to class-spell list limits. That's the way I feel on the issue as well. As written, the text not only does NOT prohibit mixing spell lists a little, it heavily implies that you can. At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level. (In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn''t be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.) You can add another spell from your spellbook to your list of spells known every two levels thereafter. At 4th level, this can be a 0-, 1st, or 2nd-level spell. At 6th level, this can be any spell of 3rd level or lower. At 8th level, this can be any spell of 4th level or lower, and at 10th level it can be of 5th level or lower. Emphasis mine. It is quite clear to me that (pre-errata), Ask Wizards is WRONG. I'm surprised so many people here agree with its ruling. If they can't get it right, they have no business answering questions!
jaelis 10-29-06, 09:28 PM	Actually, I would have concluded just the opposite. (In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn''t be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.) So you add the wizard spell magic missile to your bard's spells known list. But in order to cast it, you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level. What level would that be? I don't know of any bard spell slots that can be used to cast magic missile. The quoted line specifically says that knowing a spell doesn't mean you can cast it, which is exactly the reason we're saying it shouldn't work.
Nephlite 10-29-06, 09:35 PM	I don't have my book with me right now, but does Andy Collins seem a little off base if not flat out wrong in his response? The text for the Ultimate Magus' Expanded Spell Knowledge class feature has no limitation whatsoever (that I could find) about what spell list the spell is from. After all, the optimization guys have been transferring sorcerer/wizard spells to the beguiler/bard spell lists for weeks now, and they don't miss much. :rolleyes: So, who's wrong? Andy? Or me and all of the optimization forums? :confused: Whoa, his answer is nonsense. A: The spell must be on the spells known list for the second class. It's not really a game balance issue -- it's not overpowered for a wizard/bard/ultimate magus to use bard slots to cast magic missile -- but rather that some spells are designed to work only for prepared-spell casters, and thus don't function appropriately for spontaneous casters. Isn't the Sorceror spontanous? Can't the Sorceror cast magic missile? So what was his argument against the spell? Spontanous casters can use it? Didn't they already!? Does his answer even work logically?
strenoth 10-29-06, 09:50 PM	as magic missle is a 1st level spell in the source it is coming from (wizard spellbook) it would be a first level spell for the bard. It seems obvious to me.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-29-06, 09:54 PM	By the letter of the rules, the text makes no mention of only spells from ones class list can be added. Thus a Wizard could add his Wizard spells to the Beguiler. Andy has elegantly stated the intent. That is fine. However, by the text. Yes, You Can Add Spells That Are Not On The Spontaneous Caster's Spell List. Do not argue this point. Argue intent all you like. Like what our beloved D&D Developer has said ( :D I really do appreciate his work), but do not say that by the wording this is not possible, because it is.
Raven Dark 10-29-06, 09:55 PM	as magic missle is a 1st level spell in the source it is coming from (wizard spellbook) it would be a first level spell for the bard. It seems obvious to me. That's what I thought too. Isn't it obvious? Guess not. :rolleyes:
jaelis 10-29-06, 09:59 PM	Whoa, his answer is nonsense. Isn't the Sorceror spontanous? Can't the Sorceror cast magic missile? So what was his argument against the spell? Spontanous casters can use it? Didn't they already!? Does his answer even work logically? It's not that bad. No one said you couldn't let a sorcerer learn magic missile this way. He said you can't let a bard learn magic missile this way. You may or may not feel that this is what the original text says, but there's nothing inherently illogical about Andy's explanation of it. (In other words, if the orginal text did say that the spell had to be on the spontaneous caster's list, then it would be would be a perfectly understandable ability.)
jaelis 10-29-06, 10:02 PM	By the letter of the rules, the text makes no mention of only spells from ones class list can be added. Agreed. Thus a Wizard could add his Wizard spells to the Beguiler. But how does that follow, exactly? Not that I'm saying the opposite follows. It just seems to me that, according to your first statement, the text just doesn't say. Ravendark and strenoth: So if you used this to add Otto's Irresistable Dance to the bard's spells known list, what level would it be?
ShinAkuma2 10-29-06, 10:04 PM	as magic missle is a 1st level spell in the source it is coming from (wizard spellbook) it would be a first level spell for the bard. It seems obvious to me. Not all spells that are on both lists retain the same level. This is one of the big debate points regarding Extra Spell feat...It would allow a Wizard to use Tasha's Hideous Laughter as a 1st level spell rather than 2nd. If Magic Missile was going to be a bard spell, I wouldn't be suprised to see the spell level bumped, if only because direct damage usually isn't the bard's thing.
Adam Smite 10-29-06, 10:16 PM	Jaelith, nephlite is probably talking about this: A: The spell must be on the spells known list for the second class. It's not really a game balance issue -- it's not overpowered for a wizard/bard/ultimate magus to use bard slots to cast magic missile -- but rather that some spells are designed to work only for prepared-spell casters, and thus don't function appropriately for spontaneous casters. Again, last I checked, magic missile was a Sorceror spell too. To be honest, I think our worthy developer had a head cold or something, and overlooked the obvious while writing this. For that reason, and because I'm like a year away from thinking of using Ultimate Magus, I'm gonna ignore this little blip for now.
jaelis 10-29-06, 10:20 PM	Jaelith, nephlite is probably talking about this: Oh. Well, that is clearly ( :) ) refering to spells like Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, which is not on the Sorc list, and would require some interpretation to be used with a spontaneous caster.
risner 10-30-06, 12:28 AM	Do not argue this point. Argue intent all you like. Like what our beloved D&D Developer has said ( :D I really do appreciate his work), but do not say that by the wording this is not possible, because it is. Again, you are dead wrong.
Raven Dark 10-30-06, 02:12 AM	Ravendark and strenoth: So if you used this to add Otto's Irresistable Dance to the bard's spells known list, what level would it be? It would be an 8th level spell, which would be unfortunate since bards don't get access to such spell levels (at least not befor epic). The thing is, no player in his right mind would ever choose Otto's irresistable dance for two reasons: (1) He couldn't cast it and (2) the bard already has it on his spell list at a lower level. A smart player would choose OID as one of his NORMAL bard spells, not try and get it via Expanded Spell Knowledge. That would be just as stupid and wasteful as taking the weapon specializtion (net) feat.
jaelis 10-30-06, 09:12 AM	It would be an 8th level spell, which would be unfortunate since bards don't get access to such spell levels (at least not befor epic). The thing is, no player in his right mind would ever choose Otto's irresistable dance for two reasons: (1) He couldn't cast it and (2) the bard already has it on his spell list at a lower level. A smart player would choose OID as one of his NORMAL bard spells, not try and get it via Expanded Spell Knowledge. That would be just as stupid and wasteful as taking the weapon specializtion (net) feat. See, I think that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, and I have no objection if you think that's the best way to play it. But I don't think it is fair to say that this is the obvious way to do it. It is also perfectly reasonable to say that OID is a 6th level bard spell, no matter how you happen to learn it. So I do object to getting on Andy Collins' case about not knowing what he is doing, when he is just saying which of two reasonable interpretations was the design intent. And he even gives a sensible motivation for that intent... letting a sorcerer have Rary's ME would indeed be kind of confusing. (OID is kind of a bad example, though, since I guess Expanded Spell Knowledge wouldn't work for it anyway as the level is too high. Tasha's Hideous Laughter would be better... its the same question, but level 1 or level 2?)
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 10-30-06, 09:37 AM	Again, you are dead wrong. It's easy to talk risner. I was right the first time but I didn't have the energy to follow up as I was busy with RL stuff. The text makes no mention of only class spells being added to the list. None at all. It just says a spell, therefore you can.
starfire311 10-30-06, 09:54 AM	lets just look at the requirements you need to be able to cast a spell, for a spontaneous caster. 1) spell needs to be on your spell List 2) spell needs to be on your list of spells known 3) you need to have the appropriate spell slot to be able to cast the spell available 4) you need to have sufficient abilty score in your casting stat to be able to cast it. 5) need all components/foci to cast it jsut because you meet 2, 3, 4 & 5... does not mean you can cast it... at least that is what Andy is saying I think. I actually agree with him too, I just feel that the extra spell/expanded spell knowledge should add the spell to your spells known and your spell list.
The_Cheeseman 10-30-06, 05:30 PM	Let us not forget, the rules are not here to tell you what you cannot do, they are here to show you what you can do, and tell you how it can be done. The core rules state that a spellcaster cannot learn a spell that is not on their class list. Therefore, unless an ability specifically says that it adds the spell to that class's spell list (as in the feature of the Rainbow Servant prestiege class, the Sandshaper prestiege class from Sandstorm, or a Cleric's domains) you must choose a spell that is on your class's spell list. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Nom 10-30-06, 06:06 PM	I'm going to disagree with Raven Dark on this one. First, remember there's a general rule that you learn and cast spells from your class list. "A bard casts arcane spells ... which are drawn from the bard spell list", "A cleric casts divine spells ... which are drawn from the cleric spell list", "A wizard casts arcane spells ... which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list". Sorcerers are a slight exception, in that their spells "are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list". The "primarily" seems to be there to cover the rules later on in the section that allow the sorcerer to gain unusual spells (ie not on the PH sor/wiz list) by study. However, PH pp 179 and 180 reveal that other casters can also add spells to the PH lists by study ("independent research" rules). There's nothing inconsistent about reading the "unusual spell" discussion of "extra spell" as a way to bypass the research requirements, not a carte blanche to pick any spell you can find on any list. (Yes, I know this is not the exact topic, but it's relevant) Now, let's look at the text of "Expanded Spell Knowledge": "At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level. (In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn''t be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.)" Note: you add the spell to the list of spells known. It doesn't say that you add the spell to the class list, nor that it bypasses the normal spell selection rules. More correctly, it does say that it bypasses the normal selection rules: you can choose to know spells that are too high a level for you to cast. Given that it creates one explicit exception to the rules, the lack of an exception to the spell list requirements is glaring.
risner 10-30-06, 10:45 PM	Given that it creates one explicit exception to the rules, the lack of an exception to the spell list requirements is glaring. That along with the definition of "Spells Known" in the PHB Glossary, I just can't imagine how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that it is added to your class spell list. Also, there is an article in a recent Dragon where they spell out exactly what is meant by the Unusual Spells words in the Sorcerer class description. Those words were chosen to allow for Bloodline feats that grant 9 spells to a Sorcerer's class spell list and spells known. There is zero evidence in the text to support the position that these feats add to class spell lists, zero.