"Casting" Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Casting" Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gabrion
06-29-05, 01:21 PM The SRD says that spells are cast from a wand, so I was wondering how this works with class abilities that depend on a character casting a particular spell. For instance, the Force Missile Mage (Dragon 328) modifies magic missile every time they cast it. Does this mean that when they cast magic missile from a wand that it still gets these goodies? Thanks for any help.
tarkin
06-29-05, 01:30 PM No.

And the SRD misspoke where it says "cast". Wands are spell trigger items and they trigger magic already put in them. The PHB and DMG explain it further.

Magic items (unless they are intelligent) never cast spells.
gabrion
06-29-05, 02:00 PM No.

And the SRD misspoke where it says "cast". Wands are spell trigger items and they trigger magic already put in them. The PHB and DMG explain it further.

Magic items (unless they are intelligent) never cast spells.

Well I thought the same thing, which is why I brought up the question, but it seems that the DMG had the same language as the SRD on this issue. In case you are talking about something different, let me clarify where I'm getting this from. In the section of the SRD (and the DMG) about wands it says:

Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.)

I don't think the point is about items casting spells, but instead that the language describes the use of a wand by saying that you cast a spell from it. If this is the case, then is someone using the wand of magic missile still casting the spell?
Jack Greylock
06-29-05, 02:12 PM No, definately not as that would make the wand far more powerfull than it is intended, as the spell would then be cast at your caster level instead of the level of the person who created the wand, making it far more powerfull since the standard price for a wand in the DMG is based off of the lowest level character who could have created it.

The only items that tend to use your caster level instead of the items are Staffs which you'll find are much more expensive to create than a wand.
gabrion
06-29-05, 02:28 PM ...as the spell would then be cast at your caster level instead of the level of the person who created the wand...

Why did you come to that conclusion? I must not be clear in what I'm asking here. The energy of a spell is stored in a wand, and I understand that the effect of that particular wand depends on the CL of the creator. I'm simply puting forth that the language used to describe spell-trigger magic items implies that you still "cast" the spell from the item.

Another way of thinking of this is by saying that a spell has to be cast to have an effect right? This seems true no matter the source of the spell. So in the case of spells being cast from a wand, who is the caster? The creator? The wand? The user? Someone else? If someone could support that the answer is either the creator, the wand or someone else, I would be convinced that class abilities that freely modified a specific spell you cast would have no effect. As it stands though, it seems that the user must be the caster of the spell.

Like I said before, the possibility of arriving at this conclusion is what led me to ask the question in the first place, so does anyone have a reason why this doesn't work. Nothing against tarkin or jack greylock, but if people disagree, could they give a reason within the rules that has a supported argument?
tarkin
06-29-05, 03:13 PM You want more?

OK.

In order to cast a spell:

1) You must have an int/charisma/wisdom > than the spell level. Does the wand have an int/cha/wis at all? No?? then it can't cast the spell. Any DM that rules the wand has an int/cha/wis but is not intelligent has his head so far up his a$$, you should not listen to him.

2) You must have the spell on your spell list. What spell list does the wand have? None. So it can't cast the spell. A DM might possibly rule that it does, but that would be a big house rule.

3) You have to be of sufficient level to cast it, wands do have caster levels

4) You have to know the spell. One could claim that the wand "knows" the spell.

5) You must have it prepared/have an open slot. OK, you could claim the wand has it prepared 50 times.

So wands fail two of the five requirements for asting spells. As such, they can't cast spells.
gabrion
06-29-05, 03:41 PM You want more?

OK.

In order to cast a spell:

1) You must have an int/charisma/wisdom > than the spell level. Does the wand have an int/cha/wis at all? No?? then it can't cast the spell. Any DM that rules the wand has an int/cha/wis but is not intelligent has his head so far up his a$$, you should not listen to him.

2) You must have the spell on your spell list. What spell list does the wand have? None. So it can't cast the spell. A DM might possibly rule that it does, but that would be a big house rule.

3) You have to be of sufficient level to cast it, wands do have caster levels

4) You have to know the spell. One could claim that the wand "knows" the spell.

5) You must have it prepared/have an open slot. OK, you could claim the wand has it prepared 50 times.

So wands fail two of the five requirements for asting spells. As such, they can't cast spells.

Another way of thinking of this is by saying that a spell has to be cast to have an effect right? This seems true no matter the source of the spell. So in the case of spells being cast from a wand, who is the cast? The creator? The wand? The user? Someone else? If someone could support that the answer is either the creator, the wand or someone else, I would be convinced that class abilities that freely modified a specific spell you cast would have no effect. As it stands though, it seems that the user must be the caster of the spell.

Man, are you even reading what I'm asking? I really do appreciate input here, but I'm asking an earnest question and you are responding with a bunch of stuff that doesn't even relate. I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like your last post proved my point for me. Spells from a wand are cast, but a wand can cast a spell. Therefor someone else is doing the casting and the wand is just the vehicle. I vote for the user being the one doing the casting, but if you have another idea, I'm all ears.

PS, if your argument is simply "the SRD and the DMG are mistaken," then why are you discussing this at all? Just make up the rules you want, but I'm more into palying with the rules provided.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gabrion 06-29-05, 01:21 PM	The SRD says that spells are cast from a wand, so I was wondering how this works with class abilities that depend on a character casting a particular spell. For instance, the Force Missile Mage (Dragon 328) modifies magic missile every time they cast it. Does this mean that when they cast magic missile from a wand that it still gets these goodies? Thanks for any help.
tarkin 06-29-05, 01:30 PM	No. And the SRD misspoke where it says "cast". Wands are spell trigger items and they trigger magic already put in them. The PHB and DMG explain it further. Magic items (unless they are intelligent) never cast spells.
gabrion 06-29-05, 02:00 PM	No. And the SRD misspoke where it says "cast". Wands are spell trigger items and they trigger magic already put in them. The PHB and DMG explain it further. Magic items (unless they are intelligent) never cast spells. Well I thought the same thing, which is why I brought up the question, but it seems that the DMG had the same language as the SRD on this issue. In case you are talking about something different, let me clarify where I'm getting this from. In the section of the SRD (and the DMG) about wands it says: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) I don't think the point is about items casting spells, but instead that the language describes the use of a wand by saying that you cast a spell from it. If this is the case, then is someone using the wand of magic missile still casting the spell?
Jack Greylock 06-29-05, 02:12 PM	No, definately not as that would make the wand far more powerfull than it is intended, as the spell would then be cast at your caster level instead of the level of the person who created the wand, making it far more powerfull since the standard price for a wand in the DMG is based off of the lowest level character who could have created it. The only items that tend to use your caster level instead of the items are Staffs which you'll find are much more expensive to create than a wand.
gabrion 06-29-05, 02:28 PM	...as the spell would then be cast at your caster level instead of the level of the person who created the wand... Why did you come to that conclusion? I must not be clear in what I'm asking here. The energy of a spell is stored in a wand, and I understand that the effect of that particular wand depends on the CL of the creator. I'm simply puting forth that the language used to describe spell-trigger magic items implies that you still "cast" the spell from the item. Another way of thinking of this is by saying that a spell has to be cast to have an effect right? This seems true no matter the source of the spell. So in the case of spells being cast from a wand, who is the caster? The creator? The wand? The user? Someone else? If someone could support that the answer is either the creator, the wand or someone else, I would be convinced that class abilities that freely modified a specific spell you cast would have no effect. As it stands though, it seems that the user must be the caster of the spell. Like I said before, the possibility of arriving at this conclusion is what led me to ask the question in the first place, so does anyone have a reason why this doesn't work. Nothing against tarkin or jack greylock, but if people disagree, could they give a reason within the rules that has a supported argument?
tarkin 06-29-05, 03:13 PM	You want more? OK. In order to cast a spell: 1) You must have an int/charisma/wisdom > than the spell level. Does the wand have an int/cha/wis at all? No?? then it can't cast the spell. Any DM that rules the wand has an int/cha/wis but is not intelligent has his head so far up his a$$, you should not listen to him. 2) You must have the spell on your spell list. What spell list does the wand have? None. So it can't cast the spell. A DM might possibly rule that it does, but that would be a big house rule. 3) You have to be of sufficient level to cast it, wands do have caster levels 4) You have to know the spell. One could claim that the wand "knows" the spell. 5) You must have it prepared/have an open slot. OK, you could claim the wand has it prepared 50 times. So wands fail two of the five requirements for asting spells. As such, they can't cast spells.
gabrion 06-29-05, 03:41 PM	You want more? OK. In order to cast a spell: 1) You must have an int/charisma/wisdom > than the spell level. Does the wand have an int/cha/wis at all? No?? then it can't cast the spell. Any DM that rules the wand has an int/cha/wis but is not intelligent has his head so far up his a$$, you should not listen to him. 2) You must have the spell on your spell list. What spell list does the wand have? None. So it can't cast the spell. A DM might possibly rule that it does, but that would be a big house rule. 3) You have to be of sufficient level to cast it, wands do have caster levels 4) You have to know the spell. One could claim that the wand "knows" the spell. 5) You must have it prepared/have an open slot. OK, you could claim the wand has it prepared 50 times. So wands fail two of the five requirements for asting spells. As such, they can't cast spells. Another way of thinking of this is by saying that a spell has to be cast to have an effect right? This seems true no matter the source of the spell. So in the case of spells being cast from a wand, who is the cast? The creator? The wand? The user? Someone else? If someone could support that the answer is either the creator, the wand or someone else, I would be convinced that class abilities that freely modified a specific spell you cast would have no effect. As it stands though, it seems that the user must be the caster of the spell. Man, are you even reading what I'm asking? I really do appreciate input here, but I'm asking an earnest question and you are responding with a bunch of stuff that doesn't even relate. I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like your last post proved my point for me. Spells from a wand are cast, but a wand can cast a spell. Therefor someone else is doing the casting and the wand is just the vehicle. I vote for the user being the one doing the casting, but if you have another idea, I'm all ears. PS, if your argument is simply "the SRD and the DMG are mistaken," then why are you discussing this at all? Just make up the rules you want, but I'm more into palying with the rules provided.