"Creatures Touched" Spell Issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Creatures Touched" Spell Issue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ClementWillowbreaker
03-30-06, 06:05 PM So while idling brushing up on magic rules, I came across a little conflict. p175 of the PHB, under the description of Touch-Ranged spells such as Teleport or Water Walk , it says You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
This would be fine and dandy, but the section on Touch Spells in Combat (PHB p141) also defines how many creatures you can touch. According to it, you can make one touch as part of casting. Then it goes on to describe that when holding the charge, you can make one touch attempt as a standard action, or six to allies as a full-round action. That seems like the proper guideline for spells that affect "creatures touched", since all are buffs or similar effects, and there are no other type of spell that requires you to touch allies like that.

Here's the issue. Page 176 says you cannot hold the charge on spells that allow you to touch multiple targets. Which means you can only touch one other person before the round ends, making the spells nearly useless and the mechnics on p141 useless.

Now, one part of the intent is clear- you cannot walk around for an hour, touching an entire town then discharge a spell on all of them. This is covered by the limitations on p175. But by not allowing you to hold the charge, you cannot use a full-round action the next round to touch 6 allies that the rules on p141 say you can.

This leaves a mess I can't figure out. The only guide left is, "touch as many willing targets as you can reach". So instead of a hard limit of 6 additional targets plus yourself by waiting a round, the guideline is now, "However many people you can stuff in a 15x20ft square so that the druid can flail around while taking a 5ft step."

Ok, that was a long post, but either one of these rules have to go (probably the restriction on holding the charge for multi-target spells), or I have seriously misunderstood/have higher expectations of good sense the spell-casting rules. Help...
Seeker95
03-30-06, 08:07 PM It is not a contradiction. If you want to affect more than one person, you must do so as a full-round action, even though the spell is a standard action casting time. (You can always take "longer" to cast the spell.)

Basically, if you cast this in combat, you had better all be standing next to each other already. Outside of combat, it is assumed you arrange in a pretty little circle and then start casting.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-30-06, 08:11 PM The description of taking a full-round action to touch multiple targets is under Holding the Charge, in fact listing it as an option you gain only when you are holding a charge. That is the problem.

Nevermind the fact that ruling that way makes it just so spontaneous casters can't Metamagic spells that affect multiple touched targets. Or that "just take longer" isn't mentioned or referenced anywhere I have ever seen.
Seeker95
03-30-06, 09:31 PM in fact listing it as an option you gain only when you are holding a charge. That is the problem.If you want to have a problem with it, go ahead.

It doesn't say "you can only take a full round action while holding a charge". (I placed this in red in your quoted text.) It says: "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action."

Nothing in that sentence about requiring that you be "holding a charge" even though that is the section it is found under. Just because it is under holding a charge does not mean you can only accomplish it while holding a charge. I emphasize this because you appear to be placing a great deal of weight on the location of the text, but then ignoring the actual wording. Neither of these fits within the literal approach you seem intent on taking.

But, if that doesn't satisfy you, use the text under teleport to explain how you can take a bunch of folks with you: "All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."

Again, if you want it to be a problem, you can read it as literally as you wish. But that neither helps explain why the spell can work nor seems to fit either the spirit of the game or the letter of the text.
Nom
03-30-06, 09:41 PM Personally, I consider the reference in PH pg 176 to be broken. It's explicitly broken in the cast of teleport, which has its own special touch rules.

It also seems to be adding a restriction that is quite different to PH pg 141. PH pg 141 allows you to touch a single target (or none) in the round you cast, and then either one friend (standard action), up to six friends (full round action), or one or more enemies (as per melee attacks) in the following round. The six friends reference explicitly applies to the "holding the charge" situation, which PH pg 176 explicitly says you cannot do.

My rulings:

(1) Ignore the offending paragraph of PH pg 176 completely.

(2) Touching up to six friends is a full round action that only provokes AoOs from your friends; you can take a 5 ft. step.

(3) Some spells (eg teleport) have special rules that override rule #2 and PH pg 141.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-31-06, 11:45 AM Nothing in that sentence about requiring that you be "holding a charge" even though that is the section it is found under. Just because it is under holding a charge does not mean you can only accomplish it while holding a charge. I emphasize this because you appear to be placing a great deal of weight on the location of the text, but then ignoring the actual wording. Neither of these fits within the literal approach you seem intent on taking.

Location and context doesn't matter?! So sentences about using wands that don't include the word "wand" apply equally to rules about scrolls on the next page, since the section don't matter? It is in the same section (and paragraph), unlike the numerous other rules about touch spells that are not in that section. It could be more general (and therefore you have to suppose extreme editting mistakes), that still doesn't address the issue of taking a standard and full-round action in the same round, which is still required. Nothing in the rule says that you can choose to cast a spell as a full-round action instead of a standard one to gain a benefit (so your supposition of poor editing requires even more alterations, and doesn't actually simplify anything).

Nom, that would be my ruling, as well. I'm just checking if I am trying to fix something that turns out to be nothing. So unless some other rules that I can't find has something to say about casting touch spells, I'm going with that can striking the p176 paragraph.
tarkin
03-31-06, 12:16 PM You can also do it this way.

1) Say "People I am going to cast teleport. Come touch me."

2) one minute later: "Is everyone ready? Everyon touching me?

3) OK, I cast teleport. Boom everyone goes.

There is a big difference between in combat and out of combat. In combat, you are limited to 6 friends per round, or 1 per attack. Out of combat, you can take as long as you need to touch everyone, then stay touching everybody.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ClementWillowbreaker 03-30-06, 06:05 PM	So while idling brushing up on magic rules, I came across a little conflict. p175 of the PHB, under the description of Touch-Ranged spells such as Teleport or Water Walk , it says You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. This would be fine and dandy, but the section on Touch Spells in Combat (PHB p141) also defines how many creatures you can touch. According to it, you can make one touch as part of casting. Then it goes on to describe that when holding the charge, you can make one touch attempt as a standard action, or six to allies as a full-round action. That seems like the proper guideline for spells that affect "creatures touched", since all are buffs or similar effects, and there are no other type of spell that requires you to touch allies like that. Here's the issue. Page 176 says you cannot hold the charge on spells that allow you to touch multiple targets. Which means you can only touch one other person before the round ends, making the spells nearly useless and the mechnics on p141 useless. Now, one part of the intent is clear- you cannot walk around for an hour, touching an entire town then discharge a spell on all of them. This is covered by the limitations on p175. But by not allowing you to hold the charge, you cannot use a full-round action the next round to touch 6 allies that the rules on p141 say you can. This leaves a mess I can't figure out. The only guide left is, "touch as many willing targets as you can reach". So instead of a hard limit of 6 additional targets plus yourself by waiting a round, the guideline is now, "However many people you can stuff in a 15x20ft square so that the druid can flail around while taking a 5ft step." Ok, that was a long post, but either one of these rules have to go (probably the restriction on holding the charge for multi-target spells), or I have seriously misunderstood/have higher expectations of good sense the spell-casting rules. Help...
Seeker95 03-30-06, 08:07 PM	It is not a contradiction. If you want to affect more than one person, you must do so as a full-round action, even though the spell is a standard action casting time. (You can always take "longer" to cast the spell.) Basically, if you cast this in combat, you had better all be standing next to each other already. Outside of combat, it is assumed you arrange in a pretty little circle and then start casting.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-30-06, 08:11 PM	The description of taking a full-round action to touch multiple targets is under Holding the Charge, in fact listing it as an option you gain only when you are holding a charge. That is the problem. Nevermind the fact that ruling that way makes it just so spontaneous casters can't Metamagic spells that affect multiple touched targets. Or that "just take longer" isn't mentioned or referenced anywhere I have ever seen.
Seeker95 03-30-06, 09:31 PM	in fact listing it as an option you gain only when you are holding a charge. That is the problem.If you want to have a problem with it, go ahead. It doesn't say "you can only take a full round action while holding a charge". (I placed this in red in your quoted text.) It says: "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action." Nothing in that sentence about requiring that you be "holding a charge" even though that is the section it is found under. Just because it is under holding a charge does not mean you can only accomplish it while holding a charge. I emphasize this because you appear to be placing a great deal of weight on the location of the text, but then ignoring the actual wording. Neither of these fits within the literal approach you seem intent on taking. But, if that doesn't satisfy you, use the text under teleport to explain how you can take a bunch of folks with you: "All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you." Again, if you want it to be a problem, you can read it as literally as you wish. But that neither helps explain why the spell can work nor seems to fit either the spirit of the game or the letter of the text.
Nom 03-30-06, 09:41 PM	Personally, I consider the reference in PH pg 176 to be broken. It's explicitly broken in the cast of teleport, which has its own special touch rules. It also seems to be adding a restriction that is quite different to PH pg 141. PH pg 141 allows you to touch a single target (or none) in the round you cast, and then either one friend (standard action), up to six friends (full round action), or one or more enemies (as per melee attacks) in the following round. The six friends reference explicitly applies to the "holding the charge" situation, which PH pg 176 explicitly says you cannot do. My rulings: (1) Ignore the offending paragraph of PH pg 176 completely. (2) Touching up to six friends is a full round action that only provokes AoOs from your friends; you can take a 5 ft. step. (3) Some spells (eg teleport) have special rules that override rule #2 and PH pg 141.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-06, 11:45 AM	Nothing in that sentence about requiring that you be "holding a charge" even though that is the section it is found under. Just because it is under holding a charge does not mean you can only accomplish it while holding a charge. I emphasize this because you appear to be placing a great deal of weight on the location of the text, but then ignoring the actual wording. Neither of these fits within the literal approach you seem intent on taking. Location and context doesn't matter?! So sentences about using wands that don't include the word "wand" apply equally to rules about scrolls on the next page, since the section don't matter? It is in the same section (and paragraph), unlike the numerous other rules about touch spells that are not in that section. It could be more general (and therefore you have to suppose extreme editting mistakes), that still doesn't address the issue of taking a standard and full-round action in the same round, which is still required. Nothing in the rule says that you can choose to cast a spell as a full-round action instead of a standard one to gain a benefit (so your supposition of poor editing requires even more alterations, and doesn't actually simplify anything). Nom, that would be my ruling, as well. I'm just checking if I am trying to fix something that turns out to be nothing. So unless some other rules that I can't find has something to say about casting touch spells, I'm going with that can striking the p176 paragraph.
tarkin 03-31-06, 12:16 PM	You can also do it this way. 1) Say "People I am going to cast teleport. Come touch me." 2) one minute later: "Is everyone ready? Everyon touching me? 3) OK, I cast teleport. Boom everyone goes. There is a big difference between in combat and out of combat. In combat, you are limited to 6 friends per round, or 1 per attack. Out of combat, you can take as long as you need to touch everyone, then stay touching everybody.