"Emanation Centered on you" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Emanation Centered on you" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
francothebat
04-29-06, 06:26 PM A spell with an area of effect "emanation centered on you", if it isn't mentioned anywhere clearly, does it move with you or not?

For example in Antimagic Field we have a movable emanation, while in Globe of Inv an immovable one.

What about if it doesnt say it?
In general, emanations centered on u r movable or not? Can I have an official reference plz?

THNX in advance
Esponer
04-29-06, 06:30 PM I have answered in your original thread, in which this came up. Quick link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=630272).

The relevant section of my post:

Finally, Detect Hostile Intent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) follows you, contrary to Racinante's reply. Emanations by definition are, and remain, centred upon their point of projection. (This is true both in D&D, and in a more general sense: the effect emanates from a point.) In this case, the point is yourself, and you can potentially move.

"An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect)
francothebat
04-29-06, 06:47 PM Detect Magic moves with u or not? It says each round u can turn to detect a new area. But if by default it moves with u this is pointless to mention or? Cause u can move anyway even while concentrated.

If all emanations centered on u are moving as u move, then why it mentions so in Antimagic Field? Another pointless description?

Do we have a general official rule/errata/sage advice to help us?
Esponer
04-29-06, 09:09 PM I've replied in your other thread once more. Link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9059241#post9059241).

Duplicated here:

My answer is the official, and correct, version. I quoted my source. It's extremely straightforward: "the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell" [1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)]. It's not really possible to misconstrue this. To paraphrase: whatever the point of origin of an emanation is, the emanation continues to radiate from that point for the duration of the spell or power. Therefore, if a spell or power radiates from you, it will continue to radiate for you for the duration of the spell or power. You are mobile, and therefore you can move - therefore, so too can the spell or power's emanation. This isn't simply a case of D&D's wording: a radioisotope radiates a combination of alpha, beta and gamma particles. These particles radiate from the radioisotope. Of course, if you move the radioisotope, these particles continue to radiate from it, as the radioisotope is their point of origin. (I know this sounds condescending, but giving a real life analogy demonstrates just how intuitive a rule this is.)

In the case of antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm), reading the description should make it evident on several levels why you are told that the field moves with you. Firstly, note where and how this is described. "An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you." This is the first sentence, and you'll notice that it is descriptive text. It is essentially nothing more than a very short description which briefly summarises the two most salient points of the spell. Claiming that "and moves with you" must be an exception to the rules that normally apply in the headers is extremely fallacious: by the same merit, you would have to argue that "surrounds you" must be an exception to the rules (or else it would not have been mentioned in the very same sentence), and therefore "emanation, centred on you" must not usually mean that the effect surrounds you.

However, there is another potential reason why they bothered to note that antimagic field moves with you. It's potentially counterintuitive. Consider dead magic zones, which are in a sense the basis of antimagic fields, which do not move. Also consider this hypothetical argument: "An antimagic field is a barrier which prevents all magic and supernatural forces from functioning within its borders. An antimagic field is a supernatural force. Therefore, if an antimagic field attempted to displace itself, it would fail to do so, as the 'back' of the moving barrier would be attempting to move through a zone within which it cannot exist." Now, you may or may not see the logic to this argument - although there certainly is some. What relevance does this have? If, when writing antimagic field, the author had considered this logical issue, he may have felt inspired to note that an antimagic field does actually move with you.

Either way, mentioning that something is the case is not proof that it is not the case, and the rules are not unclear as to how emanations centred on the caster/manifester function. In fact, offhand I do seem to recall that it is quite common for exceptions to the rules to be far more explicitly called out, with actual noting that it is an exception, e.g., "unlike most emanations centred on the caster, antimagic fields move with the caster".

Swiftly moving on, for a cursory glance at Detect Remote Viewing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectRemoteViewing.htm), and the sentence you're referencing: "The power’s effect radiates from you and moves as you move". You should already see the clear rebuttal to this: if "moves as you move" can only mean that it is an exception to that outlined in the header, "the power's effect radiates from you" must also mean that it is an exception to that outlined in the header. So essentially, there's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever of an exception to rules, and clear examples of this sort of text simply being further description.

Finally, as I suspect you won't be satisfied yet, let's look at some other powers with emanations centred on the caster or manifester.

Antilife Shell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm) - mentions that it is mobile in its descriptive text, as well as (as is quite common, as you've noticed) repeating other parts of the header also.
Antimagic Field - discussed
Antiplant Shell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antiplantShell.htm) - mentions that it is mobile in its descriptive text.
Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) - interestingly, this actually mentions that it is immobile. As the precedent set so far is for all emanations centered on you to actually describe their mobility in the descriptive text, this is somewhat neutral.

Affinity Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/affinityField.htm) - does not state anything in its descriptive text. However, the power is woefully ineffective and improbably badly designed should the emanation not move with you.
Aura Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/auraSight.htm) - does not state anything in its descriptive text. Again, completely useless and improbably badly designed should the emanation not move with you.
Catapsi - ditto.
Demoralise - ditto.
Detect Hostile Intent - the one we were talking about. Really, this should be the easiest one to see. With a duration of 10 minutes/level, and the complete improbability of standing around, it is completely nonsensical for this to not move with you.
Detect Psionics - ditto.
Detect Remote Viewing - if anyone has ever played this standing on one spot for 24 hours, or else lose all effect, then I am horrified.
Detect Teleportation - ditto.
Disable - were it not the default for emanations to move with you, you could set this up, leave the scene (and plane), and it would continue broadcasting your mental attacks. Seriously now.

Okay, enough examples. I've only found one so far that doesn't move, and it tells you so. About half of the others tell you they do move (but this proves nothing), and almost all the rest don't tell you, and make zero sense should they not move.

And now, for the limit break.

PERMANENT EMANATION [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast the spell to be made permanent.

Benefit: Designate any one of the character’s spells whose area is an emanation from the character. This spell’s effect is permanent (though the character can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 2d4 rounds.

Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, select a different spell to become permanent.

While I shouldn't outright write in the example in the Epic Level Handbook, rest assured that the example is a spell which nowhere in its description notes its mobility. Try explaining Permanent Emanation, if the default is immobility.

I can somewhat appreciate your problem. Your confusion is an uncommon one, and so it's very, very unlikely to ever be explicitly called out. I've tried my best to prove how it works, but if the text I quoted the first time doesn't help you, you're unlikely to find more official clarification. You can email Customer Service, however, who should reply within a few days.
francothebat
04-29-06, 09:38 PM Ok.
At least for me the question is answered.
Dunno for my bro (DM) though... ^^

Email to Custom Service? Which is the email to send?

Btw u dont have to answer me to both threads. :)
I just put it here cause many ppl dont check psionic forums...

Thnx again.
Esponer
04-29-06, 10:26 PM http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
francothebat 04-29-06, 06:26 PM	A spell with an area of effect "emanation centered on you", if it isn't mentioned anywhere clearly, does it move with you or not? For example in Antimagic Field we have a movable emanation, while in Globe of Inv an immovable one. What about if it doesnt say it? In general, emanations centered on u r movable or not? Can I have an official reference plz? THNX in advance
Esponer 04-29-06, 06:30 PM	I have answered in your original thread, in which this came up. Quick link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=630272). The relevant section of my post: Finally, Detect Hostile Intent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectHostileIntent.htm) follows you, contrary to Racinante's reply. Emanations by definition are, and remain, centred upon their point of projection. (This is true both in D&D, and in a more general sense: the effect emanates from a point.) In this case, the point is yourself, and you can potentially move. "An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect)
francothebat 04-29-06, 06:47 PM	Detect Magic moves with u or not? It says each round u can turn to detect a new area. But if by default it moves with u this is pointless to mention or? Cause u can move anyway even while concentrated. If all emanations centered on u are moving as u move, then why it mentions so in Antimagic Field? Another pointless description? Do we have a general official rule/errata/sage advice to help us?
Esponer 04-29-06, 09:09 PM	I've replied in your other thread once more. Link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9059241#post9059241). Duplicated here: My answer is the official, and correct, version. I quoted my source. It's extremely straightforward: "the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell" [1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)]. It's not really possible to misconstrue this. To paraphrase: whatever the point of origin of an emanation is, the emanation continues to radiate from that point for the duration of the spell or power. Therefore, if a spell or power radiates from you, it will continue to radiate for you for the duration of the spell or power. You are mobile, and therefore you can move - therefore, so too can the spell or power's emanation. This isn't simply a case of D&D's wording: a radioisotope radiates a combination of alpha, beta and gamma particles. These particles radiate from the radioisotope. Of course, if you move the radioisotope, these particles continue to radiate from it, as the radioisotope is their point of origin. (I know this sounds condescending, but giving a real life analogy demonstrates just how intuitive a rule this is.) In the case of antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm), reading the description should make it evident on several levels why you are told that the field moves with you. Firstly, note where and how this is described. "An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you." This is the first sentence, and you'll notice that it is descriptive text. It is essentially nothing more than a very short description which briefly summarises the two most salient points of the spell. Claiming that "and moves with you" must be an exception to the rules that normally apply in the headers is extremely fallacious: by the same merit, you would have to argue that "surrounds you" must be an exception to the rules (or else it would not have been mentioned in the very same sentence), and therefore "emanation, centred on you" must not usually mean that the effect surrounds you. However, there is another potential reason why they bothered to note that antimagic field moves with you. It's potentially counterintuitive. Consider dead magic zones, which are in a sense the basis of antimagic fields, which do not move. Also consider this hypothetical argument: "An antimagic field is a barrier which prevents all magic and supernatural forces from functioning within its borders. An antimagic field is a supernatural force. Therefore, if an antimagic field attempted to displace itself, it would fail to do so, as the 'back' of the moving barrier would be attempting to move through a zone within which it cannot exist." Now, you may or may not see the logic to this argument - although there certainly is some. What relevance does this have? If, when writing antimagic field, the author had considered this logical issue, he may have felt inspired to note that an antimagic field does actually move with you. Either way, mentioning that something is the case is not proof that it is not the case, and the rules are not unclear as to how emanations centred on the caster/manifester function. In fact, offhand I do seem to recall that it is quite common for exceptions to the rules to be far more explicitly called out, with actual noting that it is an exception, e.g., "unlike most emanations centred on the caster, antimagic fields move with the caster". Swiftly moving on, for a cursory glance at Detect Remote Viewing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/detectRemoteViewing.htm), and the sentence you're referencing: "The power’s effect radiates from you and moves as you move". You should already see the clear rebuttal to this: if "moves as you move" can only mean that it is an exception to that outlined in the header, "the power's effect radiates from you" must also mean that it is an exception to that outlined in the header. So essentially, there's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever of an exception to rules, and clear examples of this sort of text simply being further description. Finally, as I suspect you won't be satisfied yet, let's look at some other powers with emanations centred on the caster or manifester. Antilife Shell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm) - mentions that it is mobile in its descriptive text, as well as (as is quite common, as you've noticed) repeating other parts of the header also. Antimagic Field - discussed Antiplant Shell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antiplantShell.htm) - mentions that it is mobile in its descriptive text. Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) - interestingly, this actually mentions that it is immobile. As the precedent set so far is for all emanations centered on you to actually describe their mobility in the descriptive text, this is somewhat neutral. Affinity Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/affinityField.htm) - does not state anything in its descriptive text. However, the power is woefully ineffective and improbably badly designed should the emanation not move with you. Aura Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/auraSight.htm) - does not state anything in its descriptive text. Again, completely useless and improbably badly designed should the emanation not move with you. Catapsi - ditto. Demoralise - ditto. Detect Hostile Intent - the one we were talking about. Really, this should be the easiest one to see. With a duration of 10 minutes/level, and the complete improbability of standing around, it is completely nonsensical for this to not move with you. Detect Psionics - ditto. Detect Remote Viewing - if anyone has ever played this standing on one spot for 24 hours, or else lose all effect, then I am horrified. Detect Teleportation - ditto. Disable - were it not the default for emanations to move with you, you could set this up, leave the scene (and plane), and it would continue broadcasting your mental attacks. Seriously now. Okay, enough examples. I've only found one so far that doesn't move, and it tells you so. About half of the others tell you they do move (but this proves nothing), and almost all the rest don't tell you, and make zero sense should they not move. And now, for the limit break. PERMANENT EMANATION [EPIC] Prerequisites: Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast the spell to be made permanent. Benefit: Designate any one of the character’s spells whose area is an emanation from the character. This spell’s effect is permanent (though the character can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 2d4 rounds. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, select a different spell to become permanent. While I shouldn't outright write in the example in the Epic Level Handbook, rest assured that the example is a spell which nowhere in its description notes its mobility. Try explaining Permanent Emanation, if the default is immobility. I can somewhat appreciate your problem. Your confusion is an uncommon one, and so it's very, very unlikely to ever be explicitly called out. I've tried my best to prove how it works, but if the text I quoted the first time doesn't help you, you're unlikely to find more official clarification. You can email Customer Service, however, who should reply within a few days.
francothebat 04-29-06, 09:38 PM	Ok. At least for me the question is answered. Dunno for my bro (DM) though... ^^ Email to Custom Service? Which is the email to send? Btw u dont have to answer me to both threads. :) I just put it here cause many ppl dont check psionic forums... Thnx again.
Esponer 04-29-06, 10:26 PM	http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?