Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaladon7779 07-24-07, 01:44 AM	I need help with this spell please, somebody in my group says he can fabricate a Masterwork Longsword, If i'm reading it Fabricate correctly you only make one skill check of Craft Weaponsmithing and you go off the charts and for formula just as id you were crafting a weapon. But how does this work? coudl somebody please explain in detail to me please I would really appreciate any help on this.
Terraneaux 07-24-07, 02:08 AM	You make two craft checks iirc, one for the masterwork component and one for the sword. This all happens in one round. Then the sword is done.
Kaladon7779 07-24-07, 02:29 AM	So we could be working with adamantine and would like to make a Masterwork Full plate, You just make two checks, one at a regular Full Plate check and the other at Masterwork and that's it?
Nezkrul 07-24-07, 03:04 AM	actually it takes 2 fabricate spells to make 1 masterwork item. Making a masterwork item requires 2 separate craft checks, you only get 1 per fabricate spell. So you could still use the first to craft the masterwork component as a standard action, then the next spell to craft the normal component with the masterwork component as part of the raw materials.
Kaladon7779 07-24-07, 09:01 AM	Ok i'm confused now, so the whole convert the Gold into Silver and roll your DC check to see how much Silver Piece you made is expediated? Now you just make 2 checks for masterwork regardless of the price of the item and that's it? Like lets say I want to make a bridge or a Statue, I just make one roll and that's it, regardless of the price of it. The way I read it is you still make the roll and conversion from Silver pieces, fabracate just reduces the amount of time to make high quality stuff.
Dalthbar 07-24-07, 09:12 AM	The fabricate spell just "makes stuff". If it's complicated (e.g., a suit of armor) then you need to make a craft check to do it right. If you were just going to make "a big chunk of stone" with no detail, then you wouldn't need a craft check at all. For non-masterwork armor, for example, you just cast the spell and make a single craft check. That's it. For masterwork armor, you cast the spell and prepare the masterwork component with that craft check. Remember from the craft description that this is a separate part of the process. Then you cast fabricate a second time, make a second craft check and turn the newly-prepared masterwork component into the armor. You don't need to do any of the "roll the sp progress per day" nonsense since that's exactly what fabricate is doing for you. If you wanted, you could "hand-craft" the masterwork component by the sp-per-day method per the craft skill and then cast fabricate once and make one craft check to turn that now-prepared masterwork component into armor. Just realize that it's a two-step process that requires you to craft at each stage. You can substitute fabricate at any point (or both) of that process if you wish.
Kaladon7779 07-24-07, 09:28 AM	I still don't fully understand, where you guys are getting that you just make 2 checks to make a Masterwork Longsword. This is the way I see how it is done, by Raw it says In some cases, the fabricate spell can be used to achieve the results of a Craft check with no actual check involved. So I roll a craft check and lets say I roll a 20, and the DC to make a regular Masterwork Long Sword is 20. So I made my craft check, now the result is 400 Silver worth, all in one spell what woudl normally take a person with a hammer and anvil a full day to do. Now I could cast it again where somebody without the spell has to wait an entire day. That is the way I read it.
malignor 07-24-07, 11:34 AM	I agree with you, Kaladon7779. Special materials, such as darkwood and adamantine, can only make masterwork items. Any item made of these special materials is masterwork by virtue of being made by the special material. If a spellcaster has a darkwood log, he should not need to cast fabricate twice to make a club out of it.
tarkin 07-24-07, 11:45 AM	Fabricate is NOT limited to one spell per Craft Check. Fabricate works as follows: You need the raw materials, but spend 1 round per amount of material instead of spending days/weeks/months to create the item. You want to make a masterwork item? Fine. You need to have the proper ingredients to make a masterwork item. That will mean either more steal or better quality steal. And you still have to make BOTH craft checks. Fail one and you don't get a sword. Fail the other and your sword is not masterwork. ---------------------------------- When don't you need a craft check: You don't need a craft check for doing incredibly easy things. Things like making a raft out of a bunch of trees and vines. Things like making a tunnel through a wall/rough hewn door.
risner 07-24-07, 03:16 PM	My understanding/believe is Tarkin's post is the most accurate portrait of the RAW and RAI in the rules.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 03:19 PM	Fabricate does not allow you to mix two different materials. It clearly says you take one material and make one item of that same material out of it. Masterwork components are a seperate item altogether. Nothing even says that the masterwork component is of the same material. Most likely it isn't... So how do you mix two completely different items together made of two different materials to make a masterwork item?
malignor 07-24-07, 03:29 PM	I always saw the "masterwork component" as being a purely theoretical thing. I mean if you make a masterwork teaspoon, does it have a weird thingy on it called "the masterwork doodad"?
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 04:13 PM	Okay, I've put a lot of time thinking about this and how the spell works specifically. Here are my thoughts: You can make a sword (although I will add more later on this below) with fabricate. One material into one item. You can make a masterwork component with fabricate. One material into one item (since masterwork component doesn't say multiple items or materials). To make the sword masterwork though, you would have to physically craft them together with the proper skill or find someone else to do it. Fabricate does not in anyway allow you to take two separate items and craft them or merge them together. In fact it clearly says you can't, making one material into one item is pretty clear. Now armor like full plate should be impossible to make with fabricate. Armor and technically weapons (hilts, pommels, cross piece, etc...) are all in reality separate pieces that are then combined to make the final product. Full plate is obviously this way since if you wear only parts of it, it is piecemail. If you made one solid piece of full plate, one material, all connected it wouldn't even move. It would be a solid block of shaped metal. Worthless as armor. You could fabricate each piece individually, but again you can't fabricate them all into the finished piece then. You would still have to physically craft them together or have someone else to do it. A weapon I would allow it as one solid item. Armor, absolutely not. Shield, yes, why not. Either way, you can not make masterwork items with fabricate. The act of taking two or more separate items (even if same material) and combining them into one is not something fabricate can do by RAW. Those are my thoughts on the matter.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 04:35 PM	The fabricate spell just "makes stuff". If it's complicated (e.g., a suit of armor) then you need to make a craft check to do it right. If you were just going to make "a big chunk of stone" with no detail, then you wouldn't need a craft check at all. For non-masterwork armor, for example, you just cast the spell and make a single craft check. That's it. For masterwork armor, you cast the spell and prepare the masterwork component with that craft check. Remember from the craft description that this is a separate part of the process. Then you cast fabricate a second time, make a second craft check and turn the newly-prepared masterwork component into the armor. Er, dude, a "masterwork component" isn't a real physical thing. It represents the extra effort required to make regular armor into masterwork armor. It makes no sense to have you cast the spell twice to make a "masterwork component" and then make the armor. You just roll both checks at the same time when you cast the fabricate spell.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 04:38 PM	Okay, I've put a lot of time thinking about this and how the spell works specifically. Here are my thoughts: You can make a sword (although I will add more later on this below) with fabricate. One material into one item. You can make a masterwork component with fabricate. One material into one item (since masterwork component doesn't say multiple items or materials). To make the sword masterwork though, you would have to physically craft them together with the proper skill or find someone else to do it. Fabricate does not in anyway allow you to take two separate items and craft them or merge them together. In fact it clearly says you can't, making one material into one item is pretty clear. Now armor like full plate should be impossible to make with fabricate. Armor and technically weapons (hilts, pommels, cross piece, etc...) are all in reality separate pieces that are then combined to make the final product. Full plate is obviously this way since if you wear only parts of it, it is piecemail. If you made one solid piece of full plate, one material, all connected it wouldn't even move. It would be a solid block of shaped metal. Worthless as armor. You could fabricate each piece individually, but again you can't fabricate them all into the finished piece then. You would still have to physically craft them together or have someone else to do it. A weapon I would allow it as one solid item. Armor, absolutely not. Shield, yes, why not. Either way, you can not make masterwork items with fabricate. The act of taking two or more separate items (even if same material) and combining them into one is not something fabricate can do by RAW. Those are my thoughts on the matter. First of all, fabricate never says the item needs to be one solid piece. Quite the contrary. The only limit on the spell is the cubic feet limit. Secondly, there is no such thing as a literal "masterwork component". Masterwork components aren't real physical things you stick onto an ordinary sword to make it a masterwork sword. That would not be possible (unless you're picturing some kind of magic crystal you stick onto a sword that sharpens the blade and fixes the balance and everything all at once). The "masterwork component" in a Craft check is an *abstraction* that represents the extra skill and effort it takes to make a sword that's better than an ordinary sword. Fabricate does not make a separate "masterwork component". It merely requires that you roll all the checks necessary to make a masterwork sword -- so you roll the check to make the sword, once, and you roll the check to make the "masterwork component", once, and if you succeed at making the sword but not the masterwork component then it's just an ordinary sword. Make sense to everyone?
ArcTan 07-24-07, 04:39 PM	Fabricate does not allow you to mix two different materials. It clearly says you take one material and make one item of that same material out of it. Masterwork components are a seperate item altogether. Nothing even says that the masterwork component is of the same material. Most likely it isn't... You gotta be kidding me. Now I'm picturing a bunch of workshops with ingots of "masterworkium" that they use to make little "masterwork components" that you tie to ordinary tools, swords, armor, and musical instruments with string and automatically make those items "better". Sheesh.
Wraithkin 07-24-07, 04:41 PM	I always saw the "masterwork component" as being a purely theoretical thing. I mean if you make a masterwork teaspoon, does it have a weird thingy on it called "the masterwork doodad"? This is precisely my point. The concept of a seperate check and component for masterwork is simply a mechanic inserted to make it more difficult to make an item to mimic the static cost increase of the item. I'm sure making a quarterstaff wouldn't take 300 gp of wood. Plain oak stick doesn't cost 300 gp, nor is it a DC 20 to shave it down into (you guessed it) a stick. It's simply a mechanic used for the normal crafting process to make it more difficult to make a superior item. There's no amazing "thing" you put on a masterwork item. You can't go down to your local Costco and ask for some masterwork, weapon flavor. It's a mechanic, nothing more. By taking the literal approach to the "one material, one product" concept, you are basically taking away the ability to craft everything in the game with this spell. I believe the RAI on this spell is to simply remove the mundane crafting process to make stuff, as a time-saver. You still need to burn the skill points on craft skills if you're going to make anything more than a few gold in value. Edit: Now I'm picturing a bunch of workshops with ingots of "masterworkium"Omg... definitely one of the funniest mental images I've had pop in my head. I can see oompa loompa's doing it and singing as they work.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 04:42 PM	Secondly, there is no such thing as a literal "masterwork component". Masterwork components aren't real physical things you stick onto an ordinary sword to make it a masterwork sword. That would not be possible (unless you're picturing some kind of magic crystal you stick onto a sword that sharpens the blade and fixes the balance and everything all at once). Make sense to everyone? That is purely your opinion. The RAW would disagree with your "not literally an item" view of it. Creating Masterwork Items You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials. It they are two separate items, they are two separate items. Literal or not literal, that is clearly what it says. So no, that part doesn't make sense to me.
ArcTan 07-24-07, 04:47 PM	That is purely your opinion. The RAW would disagree with your "not literally an item" view of it. Creating Masterwork Items You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials. It clearly is a separate item. Meaning it is a physical "literal" item. In the English language, when you treat something "as if" it were another thing, that means it's not actually the other thing. ("We treat her as if she were our own daughter." "I feel as bad about this divorce as if you'd actually stabbed me in the face." "Hold the sword out in front of you as if it were a tennis racket".) In none of these examples is the person actually a blood relation, is the divorce actually causing severe tissue damage and blood loss to the facial region, or is the fencing foil actually covered with catgut strings and used for whacking tennis balls. The masterwork "component" is treated *as if* it were an item for the sake of making it easier to simply tack it on to the crafting process. However, the only difference between a masterwork sword and a non-masterwork sword, by RAW, is that a masterwork sword is better, not that it has a special hilt made of Masterworkium. It says so in that *very same paragraph* (that a "masterwork" item is defined by its superior craftsmanship, not by any magical enhancement added to it). I mean, how does that even make sense? Masterwork armor is *lighter* than non-masterwork armor and easier to move around in. How can you "attach" a physical item to it to do that? You yourself brought up all the reasons this doesn't make sense. What is the "masterwork component" made out of? Why does it always cost exactly 300 GP? What does it look like? What does it do?
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 04:55 PM	In the English language, when you treat something "as if" it were another thing, that means it's not actually the other thing. ("We treat her as if she were our own daughter." "I feel as bad about this divorce as if you'd actually stabbed me in the face." "Hold the sword out in front of you as if it were a tennis racket".) In none of these examples is the person actually a blood relation, is the divorce actually causing severe tissue damage and blood loss to the facial region, or is the fencing foil actually covered with catgut strings and used for whacking tennis balls. The masterwork "component" is treated *as if* it were an item for the sake of making it easier to simply tack it on to the crafting process. However, the only difference between a masterwork sword and a non-masterwork sword, by RAW, is that a masterwork sword is better, not that it has a special hilt made of Masterworkium. It says so in that *very same paragraph* (that a "masterwork" item is defined by its superior craftsmanship, not by any magical enhancement added to it). I mean, how does that even make sense? Masterwork armor is *lighter* than non-masterwork armor and easier to move around in. How can you "attach" a physical item to it to do that? You yourself brought up all the reasons this doesn't make sense. What is the "masterwork component" made out of? Why does it always cost exactly 300 GP? What does it look like? What does it do? The point is it is a separate item. If you are crafting the item and screw up the masterwork component is the sword also destroyed? No, you just make another masterwork component. That is why there are two separate checks. They are two separate parts of making the finished product. I see no problem with fabricate making a sword or armor. I see no problem with fabricate making the masterwork component. I then see no problem with fabricate combining the two materials into a masterwork item (as long as all the same material). This means 3 fabricates to make a masterwork item. I don't think this is unreasonable. You're making a masterwork item with three spells that have no added cost, and finishing it in 3 rounds. That is a huge advantage over someone just crafting it by hand. I think that is reasonable enough. The idea of taking fabricate and making a masterwork item in one shot just doesn't make sense with how the process is described.
Wraithkin 07-24-07, 05:08 PM	The masterwork portion is only a seperate item with regards to the game mechanic itself. There's no specific piece of the armor, or no specific thing on the sword that makes it "masterwork." If that were the case, the MW cost would scale with the value of the item being made, not holding static at 300 and 150 gp (weapon and armor respectively). It's simply designed to represent the additional training and time needed to put into the crafting of the MW item itself. If you look at the basic crafting times, it uses the GP value of the item to determine how long it takes. If you tack on 300 gp to a sword, it's going to take a heck of a lot longer to make than a non-mw item, just by that mechanic alone. The DC 20 is also there to represent it's more time invested. Why is it a static DC 20 to make it MW instead of Item+10? It's supposed to be there as a measure of how good the person is making the item. See what we mean? It's an abstract concept they used to flesh out a mechanic designed to make it harder to make MW items, not that it's an actual seperate item to be made that you just slap on with some Duct Tape to make it elite.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 05:12 PM	The masterwork portion is only a seperate item with regards to the game mechanic itself. There's no specific piece of the armor, or no specific thing on the sword that makes it "masterwork." If that were the case, the MW cost would scale with the value of the item being made, not holding static at 300 and 100 gp (weapon and armor respectively). It's simply designed to represent the additional training and time needed to put into the crafting of the MW item itself. If you look at the basic crafting times, it uses the GP value of the item to determine how long it takes. If you tack on 300 gp to a sword, it's going to take a heck of a lot longer to make than a non-mw item, just by that mechanic alone. The DC 20 is also there to represent it's more time invested. Why is it a static DC 20 to make it MW instead of Item+10? It's supposed to be there as a measure of how good the person is making the item. See what we mean? It's an abstract concept they used to flesh out a mechanic designed to make it harder to make MW items, not that it's an actual seperate item to be made that you just slap on with some Duct Tape to make it elite. I guess this is just puzzling for me then. Why would taking more time and not adding any materials, result in paying 150gp to 300gp more materials? If anything masterwork should only take more time then. If you are going to make it add more to material costs, then you're adding more materials. Whether you're adding metal lining over leather, far better grips instead of cow hide, whatever....it is something material-wise different between the two. Getting a better pommel for the sword to balance it out, getting a finer grade steel then the rest of the sword, whatever....just seems that the added cost goes to better quality items and materials.
groveborn 07-24-07, 05:21 PM	Masterwork component: (n) A theoretical process of creating a higher quality product by introducing a higher skill level into an existing product. Just my thought. As for Fabricate, yes it can be used to create weapons/armor, but I see no reason at all to make two checks, when the first is higher than the second. Make one roll, at DC 20 for weapons, DC 20+AC for armor. Keep in mind that the checks for crafting items are to see when they're finished, and if you ruin it entirely or partially. Since you're using a spell to do it immediately, just roll once on the higher DC to see if you can succeed. The DC's, again, aren't so much to see if it's possible, but rather how long it takes to craft, and they don't apply the same way with the Fabricate spell. If you notice the "Try Again" portion of crafting it states that you can try again but ruin half of the raw materials if you fail by 5 or more. Considering that the raw materials aren't a problem with fabricate, just use several times the amount normally needed for one sword or suit of armor and take 20 :) As far as I'm concerned you don't even need to do that, since you can reuse the bent up pieces of steel or whatnot to make a good one, so long as they're not rusty that is. Fabricate is a 5th level spell, so it really shouldn't be that big of a deal to make masterwork stuff with only one roll. Really. On a side note, you create the entire object in one casting, not one per component. The pommel is created with the blade. Read the description of Fabricate and notice how you can create a bridge from a clump of trees. That's how many separate planks? How about the number of separate strands in that rope, or the number of jewels in your jewelry, or perhaps the number threads in a shirt? I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use an existing product to make a better version of itself, as it doesn't state explicitly that you need RAW materials.
Wraithkin 07-24-07, 05:27 PM	Like I said, I think it's a mechanic. Keep in mind that not all the cost associated with it is the materials for the object itself. Sometimes it's renting better tools for the forge. Or more coal for the furnace. Or even paying for your food while you work longer, or paying for the labor to have someone help you. They don't specify that the extra cash goes into materials. It just states that it's there. The fact that it's static shows me that it's merely a Deus Ex Machina to solve a problem they couldn't figure out otherwise. If you look at the quarterstaff, it still gets a +300 gp cost to MW it, even though it's just a stick. And a spiked chain is still +300 gp, even though it's an exotic weapon and clearly much more complex to make. Armor is the same. Plain Leather Armor is 25 gp, and costs 150 gp to make mw. But, Full Plate Armor is 1500 gp, and still only costs 150 gp to make mw. It doesn't scale with the quality of the base item. That's why it leads me to believe it's simply a mechanic to require the artisan working on it to be of higher skill, because a DC 20 skill check is nothing to scoff at. Most smiths have int of 13-14 if you're really good, and you're a level 1 or 2 pud, you can't make a DC 20 check unless you're really REALLY lucky. That's what this is meant to show.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 05:29 PM	As for Fabricate, yes it can be used to create weapons/armor, but I see no reason at all to make two checks, when the first is higher than the second. Make one roll, at DC 20 for weapons, DC 20+AC for armor. I think what I'll do is basically this. Make the DC 20 for weapons, DC 20+AC for armor...one check if you want to make it masterwork. Otherwise one normal check for other items. I do still feel that if you fail by 5 you could still damage or make worthless some of the material though. While you are stretching or bending it, it can break, weaken, etc... whatever, but I can still see you screwing up something while fabricating. Heck the magic you are channeling could damage the material in itself. Since the spell says you use craft skill to make it, I feel I'm not unjustified to treat it just as the craft skill, albeit a heck of a lot faster process. Thanks for the the information. Having a bunch of people looking at multiple elements of a rule is always nice and clarifying.
risner 07-24-07, 07:23 PM	Masterwork components are a seperate item altogether. Nothing even says that the masterwork component is of the same material. Most likely it isn't... Masterwork is always (by definition) the same material. It they are two separate items, they are two separate items. Literal or not literal, that is clearly what it says. So no, that part doesn't make sense to me. No, it is one item. Notice the "as if", that means nothing else than "it is one item, but make two craft checks." The reason: You can make the item but fail the masterwork a lot costing more. I guess this is just puzzling for me then. Why would taking more time and not adding any materials, result in paying 150gp to 300gp more materials? It doesn't take one ounce of more material. The masterwork part is all about time and materials.
Nezkrul 07-24-07, 08:49 PM	well the spell doesn't say that you only make 1 craft check, it just mentions that you need to make checks for high quality items. I guess I retract what I said earlier, you really can make masterwork items with 1 spell. The problem is that you can only affect 1 cubic foot of iron, mithral, diamond, steel, copper, etc... per caster level since these are all minerals.
DarkPawn 07-24-07, 09:55 PM	well the spell doesn't say that you only make 1 craft check, it just mentions that you need to make checks for high quality items. I guess I retract what I said earlier, you really can make masterwork items with 1 spell. The problem is that you can only affect 1 cubic foot of iron, mithral, diamond, steel, copper, etc... per caster level since these are all minerals. That is pretty big.