"fire substitued holy word" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"fire substitued holy word" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
abjurer
06-06-04, 10:06 AM I wonder why some spells have the the sonic decriptor, meaning the spell deals somewhat sonic damage, when there is no need for it.
If you check any 3.5 books there are lots of spells with the energy sonic descriptor and most of the times, I bet, the meaning is that the spell just need a verbal casting component.
I brought the holy word example because it is in the phb, but it is full of these sonic spells in any book.

what do you think about this sonic spreading? do you know the cause?
Malben
06-06-04, 01:05 PM The [sonic] descriptor is relevant to the use of the countersong bardic music ability. That's why it's been stuck onto a bunch of spells that don't deal sonic damage. In the case of holy word, the damage inflicted by the spell is distinctly not sonic damage; it comes in the form of various status ailments like blindness, deafness, paralysis, and outright death. But the entire effect is based on the target(s) of the spell being able to hear.

This spell is not a very good example, because the only time it grants a save is when it is used by a cleric on his or her home plane, against non-good extraplanar creatures; instead of the effects listed above, it simply banishes them if they fail a Will save at a -4 penalty. So if you were a LG cleric casting this spell against a group of demons that included a succubus with at least one level of bard, it might matter. The demons would get a choice to use their saves (which are typically quite strong), or the succubus/bard's Perform check (which could be very high, potentially).

A better example is the brd 2/ clr 2 spell Enthrall. This is a sonic spell, and never deals damage of any kind. Since it ordinarily allows only one saving throw to negate the effect, it offers what is actually a pretty good chance for the targets to be put out of commission for a full hour. Since it has a duration, though, even a low-level bard becomes the ultimate heckler -- countersong allows a new Will save every round, with the rider that the save is always the bard's Perform check.

Another good example, if you prefer to look at a spell without a duration, is shout or its "greater" version. In this case, making your saves can be very important -- you don't want to have all your potion vials smashed, or anything like that. This is where the bard's countersong really shines, at higher levels. The highest base save bonus you'll commonly see at the lowest level you can cast shout is +7. The max skill ranks possible at this level would be +10. Add skill focus for the bard's Perform, and assume that the bard actually has a 16 in Cha (base ability score of 15, using a standard elite NPC array, so that you know where I'm getting my numbers), and the Perform bonus will be something like +16. Add a masterwork instrument, and it's +18. At level 7, this is. Add eagle's splendor and it's +20. So 1d20+20, no natural 1's for failure, instead of something like 1d20+14 if the save in question is your strong save, with a natural 1 for auto-failure.
Salla
06-06-04, 01:05 PM Well, the thing with Holy Word is ... you're saying a Holy Word. It's the sound of the Word that does the damage ... 'the unclean cannot stand the beauty and purity of the word' or some bull:censored: like that. It's probably related to the Words of Creation in the BoED.

What is the word, you ask?
'Bird'.
Everybody knows that the bird is the word.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
abjurer 06-06-04, 10:06 AM	I wonder why some spells have the the sonic decriptor, meaning the spell deals somewhat sonic damage, when there is no need for it. If you check any 3.5 books there are lots of spells with the energy sonic descriptor and most of the times, I bet, the meaning is that the spell just need a verbal casting component. I brought the holy word example because it is in the phb, but it is full of these sonic spells in any book. what do you think about this sonic spreading? do you know the cause?
Malben 06-06-04, 01:05 PM	The [sonic] descriptor is relevant to the use of the countersong bardic music ability. That's why it's been stuck onto a bunch of spells that don't deal sonic damage. In the case of holy word, the damage inflicted by the spell is distinctly not sonic damage; it comes in the form of various status ailments like blindness, deafness, paralysis, and outright death. But the entire effect is based on the target(s) of the spell being able to hear. This spell is not a very good example, because the only time it grants a save is when it is used by a cleric on his or her home plane, against non-good extraplanar creatures; instead of the effects listed above, it simply banishes them if they fail a Will save at a -4 penalty. So if you were a LG cleric casting this spell against a group of demons that included a succubus with at least one level of bard, it might matter. The demons would get a choice to use their saves (which are typically quite strong), or the succubus/bard's Perform check (which could be very high, potentially). A better example is the brd 2/ clr 2 spell Enthrall. This is a sonic spell, and never deals damage of any kind. Since it ordinarily allows only one saving throw to negate the effect, it offers what is actually a pretty good chance for the targets to be put out of commission for a full hour. Since it has a duration, though, even a low-level bard becomes the ultimate heckler -- countersong allows a new Will save every round, with the rider that the save is always the bard's Perform check. Another good example, if you prefer to look at a spell without a duration, is shout or its "greater" version. In this case, making your saves can be very important -- you don't want to have all your potion vials smashed, or anything like that. This is where the bard's countersong really shines, at higher levels. The highest base save bonus you'll commonly see at the lowest level you can cast shout is +7. The max skill ranks possible at this level would be +10. Add skill focus for the bard's Perform, and assume that the bard actually has a 16 in Cha (base ability score of 15, using a standard elite NPC array, so that you know where I'm getting my numbers), and the Perform bonus will be something like +16. Add a masterwork instrument, and it's +18. At level 7, this is. Add eagle's splendor and it's +20. So 1d20+20, no natural 1's for failure, instead of something like 1d20+14 if the save in question is your strong save, with a natural 1 for auto-failure.
Salla 06-06-04, 01:05 PM	Well, the thing with Holy Word is ... you're saying a Holy Word. It's the sound of the Word that does the damage ... 'the unclean cannot stand the beauty and purity of the word' or some bull:censored: like that. It's probably related to the Words of Creation in the BoED. What is the word, you ask? 'Bird'. Everybody knows that the bird is the word.