"Hide from animals" - complete immunity? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Hide from animals" - complete immunity? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Syllestrae
02-08-07, 08:26 AM As a DM, how do I deal with the "hide from animals" spell?

As written, it seems like a complete "out" from any combat encounter that involves animals. It's an abjuration so there's no possibility for disbelief. The will save refers to the recipients of the spell, not the animals.

The only way I can think of is to either put an object inside an animal (ie: you have to kill the dire shark to retreive the dead pirate captain's key) or to put non-animals in with the animals.

Unlike invisibility (which has 1 target total), hide from animals has one receipient / level, so a low level druid can easily ward the whole party to bypass any animal encounter.
enlightened
02-08-07, 08:40 AM If a character was preparing Hide From Animals everyday I would throw an animal at him from time to time (He clearly wants to use the spell), but just not use them(the animals) for anything important.

The player gets the satisfaction of making a good spell choice, "What would you guys have done if I hadn't gotten us through that tiger den? :) ", but by not tying anything important to it nothing feels broken.
Neutronium_Dragon
02-08-07, 09:13 AM > As written, it seems like a complete "out" from any combat encounter that
> involves animals.

Yes, because that's its intended purpose. "Help, my fighter keeps hitting things with his sword!" would be an equivalent "problem". ;)

It's expected that characters will be able to use spells like this to deal with specialized encounters. Don't try to punish them for it.
Vedic Cold
02-08-07, 12:20 PM Any party with a Druid in the mix should expect to be able to overcome encounters with animals and other hazards of the natural world much more easily than a group without a Druid. It gives the player of the Druid the ability to shine. Provide encounters with animals that would be extremely difficult to deal with without the Druid's help, allowing the player to feel that they're making a significant contribution, and then go on to challenge the party later with an encounter that one of the other characters is best suited to handle. That's good adventure design.
Syllestrae
02-08-07, 12:55 PM I guess it just feels a bit overpowered to me that a druid (or a ranger) with a single level 1 spell could bypass any animal encounter, even a school of 17 hit die dire-sharks.

Hide from undead (the cleric spell) has no save for unintelligent undead (skeletons, zombies, etc), but intelligent undead (wraiths, vampires, etc) do get a saving throw.

Pretty much all higher CR undead are intelligent, so this keeps such a low level spell from having such significant impact in high CR encounters.

Hide from animals has no such safeguard (excepting that intelligent animals are magical beasts and so the spell does not function on them at all, but I don't want talking sharks :))
BloodSpill
02-08-07, 01:15 PM but they're animals. Why do you want your party to beat up cute fluffy fictional animals?
Someone
02-08-07, 01:27 PM Just mix up the encounters. Sure, the hide from animals spell would keep the wolves the goblins are riding from getting a round of attacks, but as soon as the party attacks the spell ends, a la invisibility.

Or, templates. Sure, it works on a dire bear, but not a fiendish dire bear, as its now a magical beast.
tiercel
02-08-07, 10:32 PM Hide from undead (the cleric spell) has no save for unintelligent undead (skeletons, zombies, etc), but intelligent undead (wraiths, vampires, etc) do get a saving throw. Well... to an extent, hide from animals is more self-limiting. There are undead all the way into the high CRs, even before advancement and not counting template undead like vampires and particularly liches that easily get into the more powerful end. Such undead can have a variety of spell-like or spellcasting abilities... allowing the whole gamut to be defeated by a 1st-level no-save spell would be a bit ridiculous.

Animals, on the other hand, are mostly relegated to the low-to-mid CR range. Animals are typically limited by low Intelligence, an inability to do much besides melee and (beyond the low CR animals) typically having a low AC for their CR. Animal-only encounters are not necessarily a serious threat to PCs even at mid to mid-high levels because of these considerations.

In this regard, animals serve a similar purpose in challenging PCs as the mindless undead which don't get a save against hide from undead; as low-level encounters, and melee bruisers/cannon fodder for mixed-composition higher-level encounters.

It's worth noting that you keep this in mind when generating challenges for your PCs -- don't have your 3rd level party run into a Dire Bear Convention and get XP for defeating 20 CR 7 creatures by casting hide from animals and waltzing past, and more than you would have them randomly stumble into the Cave of Animated Cloud Giant Skeletons and let them get mass XP for casting hide from undead and walking past. (If nothing else, what happens if the PCs just happen to not have the right spell prepared that day?)

Keep in mind that the druid should get some use out of memorizing hide from animals -- after all, it is a very situational spell. It is utterly useless if you don't encounter animals, after all, so just memorizing it carries a risk of a wasted spell slot. (Granted, good planning and information can minimize this -- if you are a low-level party heading into deep forest for an adventure, it's probably not a bad bet.)

As others have said, the key is to make sure the druid's player gets some use out of the spell for the PCs, but just don't make all your encounters (or your Big Encounters) animal-only. Let the druid help the party bypass a number of minor but significant potential encounters that could have drained the party's resources, but don't just give up on encounters -- mix in non-animal encounters or animals together with nonanimals.

Alternatively, you can *occasionally* set up situations where hide from animals will not let the PCs bypass the encounter, because of the nature of the encounter -- the challenge isn't just to get past the animals, but to defeat them (because they have been attacking nearby settlements, to defend NPCs currently under attack, etc.). Under this circumstance hide from animals can still be tactically useful (achieving total surprise) but doesn't end the encounter on its own.

The thing about this spell is something you'll have to deal with more generally with any situational trick -- figuring out how often to let the PCs' tricks work, so that they feel justified for investing in them, and how often to have the tricks only partially work or even occasionally fail, so the players don't get lazy doing the same thing over and over. If you let the trick work too often, the challenge goes out of the game and your campaign enters Monty Haul mode; if you let it work too seldom/not at all, the player in question will feel cheated that his investment was worthless and/or suspect you (perhaps rightly) of "railroading" situations in which the special trick never works.
Melpomene
02-08-07, 11:25 PM Hopefully, all encounters should be able to be escaped without violence. Animals, lacking to a larger extent the ability to plot or truely want, are easily subdued by removing whatever trigger has made them violent in the first place. That is, a level 1 character should be able to beat a t-rex by offering it a big plate of appealing food.

Animal alignment is classicly reffered to as Neutral Hungry. It's only the 'everything's out to get us' mentality of traditional fantasy that makes players want to kill every animal they spot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syllestrae 02-08-07, 08:26 AM	As a DM, how do I deal with the "hide from animals" spell? As written, it seems like a complete "out" from any combat encounter that involves animals. It's an abjuration so there's no possibility for disbelief. The will save refers to the recipients of the spell, not the animals. The only way I can think of is to either put an object inside an animal (ie: you have to kill the dire shark to retreive the dead pirate captain's key) or to put non-animals in with the animals. Unlike invisibility (which has 1 target total), hide from animals has one receipient / level, so a low level druid can easily ward the whole party to bypass any animal encounter.
enlightened 02-08-07, 08:40 AM	If a character was preparing Hide From Animals everyday I would throw an animal at him from time to time (He clearly wants to use the spell), but just not use them(the animals) for anything important. The player gets the satisfaction of making a good spell choice, "What would you guys have done if I hadn't gotten us through that tiger den? :) ", but by not tying anything important to it nothing feels broken.
Neutronium_Dragon 02-08-07, 09:13 AM	> As written, it seems like a complete "out" from any combat encounter that > involves animals. Yes, because that's its intended purpose. "Help, my fighter keeps hitting things with his sword!" would be an equivalent "problem". ;) It's expected that characters will be able to use spells like this to deal with specialized encounters. Don't try to punish them for it.
Vedic Cold 02-08-07, 12:20 PM	Any party with a Druid in the mix should expect to be able to overcome encounters with animals and other hazards of the natural world much more easily than a group without a Druid. It gives the player of the Druid the ability to shine. Provide encounters with animals that would be extremely difficult to deal with without the Druid's help, allowing the player to feel that they're making a significant contribution, and then go on to challenge the party later with an encounter that one of the other characters is best suited to handle. That's good adventure design.
Syllestrae 02-08-07, 12:55 PM	I guess it just feels a bit overpowered to me that a druid (or a ranger) with a single level 1 spell could bypass any animal encounter, even a school of 17 hit die dire-sharks. Hide from undead (the cleric spell) has no save for unintelligent undead (skeletons, zombies, etc), but intelligent undead (wraiths, vampires, etc) do get a saving throw. Pretty much all higher CR undead are intelligent, so this keeps such a low level spell from having such significant impact in high CR encounters. Hide from animals has no such safeguard (excepting that intelligent animals are magical beasts and so the spell does not function on them at all, but I don't want talking sharks :))
BloodSpill 02-08-07, 01:15 PM	but they're animals. Why do you want your party to beat up cute fluffy fictional animals?
Someone 02-08-07, 01:27 PM	Just mix up the encounters. Sure, the hide from animals spell would keep the wolves the goblins are riding from getting a round of attacks, but as soon as the party attacks the spell ends, a la invisibility. Or, templates. Sure, it works on a dire bear, but not a fiendish dire bear, as its now a magical beast.
tiercel 02-08-07, 10:32 PM	Hide from undead (the cleric spell) has no save for unintelligent undead (skeletons, zombies, etc), but intelligent undead (wraiths, vampires, etc) do get a saving throw. Well... to an extent, hide from animals is more self-limiting. There are undead all the way into the high CRs, even before advancement and not counting template undead like vampires and particularly liches that easily get into the more powerful end. Such undead can have a variety of spell-like or spellcasting abilities... allowing the whole gamut to be defeated by a 1st-level no-save spell would be a bit ridiculous. Animals, on the other hand, are mostly relegated to the low-to-mid CR range. Animals are typically limited by low Intelligence, an inability to do much besides melee and (beyond the low CR animals) typically having a low AC for their CR. Animal-only encounters are not necessarily a serious threat to PCs even at mid to mid-high levels because of these considerations. In this regard, animals serve a similar purpose in challenging PCs as the mindless undead which don't get a save against hide from undead; as low-level encounters, and melee bruisers/cannon fodder for mixed-composition higher-level encounters. It's worth noting that you keep this in mind when generating challenges for your PCs -- don't have your 3rd level party run into a Dire Bear Convention and get XP for defeating 20 CR 7 creatures by casting hide from animals and waltzing past, and more than you would have them randomly stumble into the Cave of Animated Cloud Giant Skeletons and let them get mass XP for casting hide from undead and walking past. (If nothing else, what happens if the PCs just happen to not have the right spell prepared that day?) Keep in mind that the druid should get some use out of memorizing hide from animals -- after all, it is a very situational spell. It is utterly useless if you don't encounter animals, after all, so just memorizing it carries a risk of a wasted spell slot. (Granted, good planning and information can minimize this -- if you are a low-level party heading into deep forest for an adventure, it's probably not a bad bet.) As others have said, the key is to make sure the druid's player gets some use out of the spell for the PCs, but just don't make all your encounters (or your Big Encounters) animal-only. Let the druid help the party bypass a number of minor but significant potential encounters that could have drained the party's resources, but don't just give up on encounters -- mix in non-animal encounters or animals together with nonanimals. Alternatively, you can occasionally set up situations where hide from animals will not let the PCs bypass the encounter, because of the nature of the encounter -- the challenge isn't just to get past the animals, but to defeat them (because they have been attacking nearby settlements, to defend NPCs currently under attack, etc.). Under this circumstance hide from animals can still be tactically useful (achieving total surprise) but doesn't end the encounter on its own. The thing about this spell is something you'll have to deal with more generally with any situational trick -- figuring out how often to let the PCs' tricks work, so that they feel justified for investing in them, and how often to have the tricks only partially work or even occasionally fail, so the players don't get lazy doing the same thing over and over. If you let the trick work too often, the challenge goes out of the game and your campaign enters Monty Haul mode; if you let it work too seldom/not at all, the player in question will feel cheated that his investment was worthless and/or suspect you (perhaps rightly) of "railroading" situations in which the special trick never works.
Melpomene 02-08-07, 11:25 PM	Hopefully, all encounters should be able to be escaped without violence. Animals, lacking to a larger extent the ability to plot or truely want, are easily subdued by removing whatever trigger has made them violent in the first place. That is, a level 1 character should be able to beat a t-rex by offering it a big plate of appealing food. Animal alignment is classicly reffered to as Neutral Hungry. It's only the 'everything's out to get us' mentality of traditional fantasy that makes players want to kill every animal they spot.