Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aftershock_pt3 12-04-06, 02:13 PM	One of my players insists that there's nothing in the book that prevents his arcane spellcaster from using Summon Monster to conjure a hound archon (for instance) and order it to commit an evil act. While I can argue on the basis of game flavor that that shouldn't be possibe, when it comes to the rules he seems to be right (the alignment restriction on casting spells for clerics doesn't seem to count for arcane casters). Is there something we're overlooking?
nightwyrm 12-04-06, 02:34 PM	After the hound archon kills the babies, the character gets a visit from some angry solars.
Witch 12-04-06, 02:39 PM	Solars might be overdoing it. Astral Devas should suffice, for the beginning.
Bounces 12-04-06, 02:39 PM	After reading Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm) I consulted the spell Charm person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm). I would use this mechanic of opposed Charisma Checks for determining if the summoned monster would actually do something that it would be generally opposed to doing. Also...another thing to consider is that Summon monster I says "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. " So...I would say that the helpless orphans cannot would not be considered as opponents from the point of view of the Hound Archon and unless your caster knows celestial (at which point I wonder why he is killing orphans) he can't direct the archon to "perform other actions"
Chrono Nexus 12-04-06, 02:41 PM	Yes, he can. But doing so is an evil act that might win the player notice from angry protectors of good from the celestial plane.
Witch 12-04-06, 02:42 PM	unless your caster knows celestial (at which point I wonder why he is killing orphans) Demons know celestial.
Bounces 12-04-06, 02:43 PM	Solars might be overdoing it. Astral Devas should suffice, for the beginning. Why even involve angels in it...this is a Hound Archon problem and Hound Archons can solve it...say a battalion of Hound Archons...with a Hound Archon hero leading them.
RavenDrake 12-04-06, 02:50 PM	I agree with Bounces for the most part. The idea of summoning is that you're calling a creature into being because you share similar goals and ides. While that is not necessarily 100% true(such as a neutral character summoning a lawful good creature) there is nothing in the summon monster description that says a monster will perform an act that would utterly violate it's alignment. If he can speak to the creature(in whatever language it speaks) then he can attempt to trick the creature(using diplomacy and/or bluff, etc) to make the creature do things it might not normally, but it won't simply nip off and bite the heads off babies cause some dink in a pointy had told it too.
Witch 12-04-06, 02:54 PM	I guess the issue is - if you summon a devil to build use it for a good cause, would Hell take vengeance? If not, why would the celestials?
Seeker95 12-04-06, 03:06 PM	I would also rule that the hound archon, possessing both a lawful good alignment and intelligence, would simply leave if you made such a request. This same good arcane caster might choose to summon an [evil] creature using the spell (there is nothing mechanically preventing this) and order the fiend to kill the orphans. I would rule that the intelligent, evil fiend would gladly do so. And the caster's alignment will be changed - not maliciously, but rather, as a matter of fact.
Seeker95 12-04-06, 03:08 PM	if you summon a devil to build use it for a good cause, would Hell take vengeance?Yes. Hell (and even the Abyss) would gladly, willingly, willfully, and decidedly take vengeance -- in their own way and on their own schedule.
nightwyrm 12-04-06, 03:12 PM	I guess the issue is - if you summon a devil to build use it for a good cause, would Hell take vengeance? If not, why would the celestials? Maybe if it was a blatant good deed like saving kids or something. The devil probably won't mind too much if you tell it to munch on some enemy wizards. The difference I see is that given the nature of the infernals, the devil/demon who is made to do a good deed would probably be the laughing stock of his race and would have to plot his vengence personally while the reverse might enrage other celestials because they have to uphold their honor or some other silly things like that.
Chie 12-04-06, 03:26 PM	While a summoned monster can't leave until the spell ends,there's nothing that actually says that the creature is compelled to do what you tell it to.A hound archon may protect the summoner from monsters just on principle,and demons that are summoned would likely welcome the chance to kill and hurt something,even if they are helping some loser mage in the bargain,but really there's no reason why a creature ordered to behave against its alignment would feel any reason to do it.
Nezkrul 12-04-06, 03:52 PM	It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Special Qualities: Aura of menace, change shape, damage reduction 10/evil, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and petrification, magic circle against evil, scent, spell resistance 16, teleport, tongues Ok first off, if the character considers the orphans to be his opponents, then any creature he summons with Summon Monster will attack them to the best of its ability. That is the mechanics of the spell, RAW. Feel free to houserule any way you want. Secondly, Hound Archons can communicate with any living creature that has a langauge, care of its Tongues ability. Therefore, you can direct it to do different things. If you can't direct it, all it does is attack your enemies or just stand there staring at you waiting for you to designate an enemy. OP: Yes, you can order ANY creature you summon; that has tongues or otherwise, to attack your opponents; even if those opponents are harmless orphans. And no matter what it will do as you command, even if it would be against its nature. The caster is the one that would take the alignment hit for slaughtering orphans. Everyone Else: houserule as you see fit.
SiouLubb 12-04-06, 04:07 PM	Sure, you can order the Hound Archon to slaughter the orphans. Nothing can prevent you from ordering the Hound Archon to commit atrocities. And nothing is going to prevent the Hound Archon from running your caster through with his greatsword. Ordering is one thing- getting it to obey is entirely another. Let's face it- the only reason that your player is making this line of argument is that he wants to get a twisted thrill from making Good do evil. He's attempting to use the rules as a justification for it. It's up to you to inform him that the rules do not specifically forbid using monsters 20 CR pts above his character's level to go "Silence of the Lambs" on his butt. I would suggest more graphic punishments, but the editing software will no doubt prevent me from using those words.
Witch 12-04-06, 04:16 PM	And nothing is going to prevent the Hound Archon from running your caster through with his greatsword. Ordering is one thing- getting it to obey is entirely another. I'd like to remind you of: "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. "
unusualsuspect 12-04-06, 05:21 PM	"It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. " First and foremost, a summon attacks the summoner's opponents to the best of its ability. IF the summoner does not either give that summon a task throughout the rest of its duration OR expressedly forbid that summon from attacking the caster, the summon is free to act as it sees fit for the rest of the time it is summoned. That could, most certainly, include running the summoner through with a greatsword. That is the RAW, as far as I can see, since summons only follow explicit commands, not assumed commands.
Worloch 12-04-06, 05:50 PM	Well, you can successfully argue that it is not a real hound archon: From the SRD: Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), ... Since Summon Monster is a [summoning] subschool, and not [calling], it is a manifestation of a hound archon, not an actual hound archon. Per this text: When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. Summoning a Hound Archon with Summon Monster is a [Good] and [Lawful] spell. I believe the BoED and BoVD have some insight on [Good] and [Evil] spells. Finally, this is pretty clear: It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. To properly parse this, you need to seperate in to its component parts. 1) It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. 2) It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. 3) If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. (Note that directing it to not attack, or to attack particular enemies, can simply be included in "other actions".) So, #1 is pretty clear, but is incumbent on #2, namely, attacking you opponents. Generally, the player decides who his or her opponents are, so any summoned creature will appear and attack those whom the caster has decided are opponents. #3 is an if/then statement, with an implied else clause (if you don't like my psuedo-code, oh well). I read it as thus: IF If you can communicate with the creature THEN you can direct it not to attack OR to attack particular enemies OR or to perform other actions ELSE It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. In this reading, which I think is fairly straight forward and RAW, the summoned creature has no free will. It will either: A) Attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. Or B) If you can communicate with it, perform other actions as directed. So, a caster could summon the manifestation of a Hound Archon and direct it to attack particular opponents, namely, helpless Orphans. I don't see the need to try to come up with a Rule as to why this would not work. A Paladin gated from another plane has the same problems, and nothing protects them. However, that caster should be expecting some divine retribution from the very real and active forces of good in the DnD mythos.
Jaxgaret 12-04-06, 06:24 PM	It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Where does it say who is the one determining who the summoner's opponents are? That's right, it doesn't. It is equally as plausible that the summon determines who the summoner's opponents are. And orphans are no real opponent for a high level Wizard. Also, "it attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" leaves open the interpretation that the best of a Hound Archon's ability to slaughter orphans is nonexistent, as it goes against its alignment. Or, at worst, a Hound Archon might knock them into unconsciousness with subdual/nonlethal damage, and no more. Additionally, the third section of the text gives explicit things that the summoner can order the summon to do: 1) not attack 2) attack particular enemies 3) do something else besides attack The word 'enemies' also can be left up to interpretation; again, who determines who the enemies are, and whose enemies are we talking about, the summoner's or the summon's? So all of you who say by RAW a summon must do what the summoner says (and by extension a summoned Hound Archon must slaughter orphans when so directed), what exactly are you reading?
Seeker95 12-04-06, 07:26 PM	Where does it say who is the one determining who the summoner's opponents are? That's right, it doesn't. It is equally as plausible that the summon determines who the summoner's opponents are.I suppose it is equally plausible that: A bard's *song* determines who his allies are. the *spell* determines which of the combatants get mass healed the bless spell determines which of the creatures in range are your allies.I don't think an ad hoc justification is needed. Either rule that the archon can refuse, or it cannot. But the ruling need not be based on some convoluted reading of the rules.
Jaxgaret 12-04-06, 07:29 PM	I suppose it is equally plausible that: A bard's *song* determines who his allies are. the *spell* determines which of the combatants get mass healed the bless spell determines which of the creatures in range are your allies.I don't think an ad hoc justification is needed. Either rule that the archon can refuse, or it cannot. But the ruling need not be based on some convoluted reading of the rules. My point was that there is no RAW on these issues, as the wording is vague. Besides, your points are moot because you are speaking about inanimate effects; a summoned creature is an intelligent being. EDIT: (Just a random aside that has nothing to do with my real point) Technically, in at least one of those cases, the effect does determine said targets. If a Bard sings and there is an ally close by that he has absolutely no idea if they are his ally or if they are even there due to some nondetection or indistinguishability effect, does the ally still receive the benefit? They sure do. The Bard has no way of knowing if the undetectable/indistinguishable person is his ally or not, but the song affects them appropriately.
Nezkrul 12-04-06, 08:29 PM	k, I read English, and once you understand English, you will lose confusion on this issue. It attacks your enemies to the best of its ability English 101 here we go: "It", (the underlined word in the quote) refers to the monster summoned. "Your", the bolded word in the quote, refers to the one who summoned the monster. "Your" cannot refer to anyone or anything else the way the English sentence is written, in context to the rest of the paragraph. IE When I cast Summon Monster IX, I determine who/what MY enemies are, as per the RAW of the Summon Monster spells. That being said, there is nothing in the summon monster spell that says the summoned monster will do anything but: attack my enemies to the best of its ability OR attack particular enemies OR don't attack anything OR perform other actions (such as move over there, perform aid-another, dance, use spot and listen, etc...) In conclusion, a Summoned Monster has no free will until the spell ends and it returns to its homeplane/where ever the manifestation came from. Feel free to houserule otherwise, but don't try to claim RAW are vague because you don't understand English very well.
Seeker95 12-04-06, 08:29 PM	My point was that there is no RAW on these issues, as the wording is vague.I disagree with both your point and your assertion. There is RAW on these issues. The wording is not vague. That I agree with your outcome (the DM need not let an intelligent, lawful good summoned creature attack a helpless orphan) does not change my disagreement with your attempt at justifying the ruling through word twisting. The spell is clear as written. The archon does not get to decide what are opponents and which are not. Nor could you use summon monster # in a crowded bar simply to determine which of the patrons would consider you an enemy. The spell is not "detect enemy". Just because it is clear as written does not also mean that I will set aside my prerogative and responsibility as a DM to rule fairly and consistently in my game. I do not need to twist words and use fuzzy interpretation to rule that you cannot force an intelligent, lawful good summoned creature to perform evil actions.
Jaxgaret 12-04-06, 09:13 PM	k, I read English, and once you understand English, you will lose confusion on this issue. English 101 here we go: :insert pedantic yet inaccurate argument: Feel free to houserule otherwise, but don't try to claim RAW are vague because you don't understand English very well. Sir, thank you for your aspersions on my English reading skills. They were very amusing. Let me ask you this: have you ever heard of the difference between something being subjective and objective? I'll start with a question: Who are my enemies? Me, the person writing this, my enemies. I have an opinion on who my enemies are. Other people also have opinions on who my enemies are. Will these two opinions always be exactly the same? No. Therefore, who my enemies are is a subjective notion. Meaning, oh wise one, that the Hound Archon may disagree with the Evil Wizard about exactly who the Evil Wizard's enemies are. Perhaps those innocent children are not really the Evil Wizard's enemies... perhaps, just perhaps, the Evil Wizard's real enemies are the ones who are aiding/abetting/financing/approving of etc. his evil acts! Because Evil is wrong to a Hound Archon, and the Evil Wizard would best be served converting to Good, rather than helping him to slaughter orphans, which would lead him deeper down the dark path. I mean, really. You think you're the authority on English? Get off your pedestal.
Jaxgaret 12-04-06, 09:19 PM	I disagree with both your point and your assertion. There is RAW on these issues. The wording is not vague. That I agree with your outcome (the DM need not let an intelligent, lawful good summoned creature attack a helpless orphan) does not change my disagreement with your attempt at justifying the ruling through word twisting. The spell is clear as written. The archon does not get to decide what are opponents and which are not. Nor could you use summon monster # in a crowded bar simply to determine which of the patrons would consider you an enemy. The spell is not "detect enemy". Just because it is clear as written does not also mean that I will set aside my prerogative and responsibility as a DM to rule fairly and consistently in my game. I do not need to twist words and use fuzzy interpretation to rule that you cannot force an intelligent, lawful good summoned creature to perform evil actions. Thank you for your more moderate post, Seeker. I appreciate an intelligent discussion. I disagree with your assertion that I am the one using word twisting. I believe the posters claiming RAW on the issue to be reading meanings into the spell description that simply aren't there. I am not saying that the interpretation of the spell i posted is the only correct one; only that it can be interpreted either way, and thus is not concrete RAW either way.
runestar 12-04-06, 09:45 PM	Is there a reason why a chaotic evil summoner cannot summon a celestial to murder innocents just for the delightful irony of it? The archon certainly is compelled to obey...:confused: The way I see the summon monster spells - you simply summon a manifestation of it - it does not actually exist. So there is really no one to take vengeance for it, since it did not really come from an archon court(of course, killing innocents is not without rammifications of its own). I think you people read too much into it...?:confused: Or am I the one....:embarrass
PhaedrusXY 12-04-06, 09:50 PM	There is absolutely nothing in the rules that prevents an evil arcane summoner from commanding a summoned archon to commit atrocities. Yes, of course DMs can feel free to punish the character, house rule that the archon disobeys, etc. But as far as the black and white rules go, he can do it.
User5127 12-04-06, 10:36 PM	Well, you can successfully argue that it is not a real hound archon: From the SRD: Since Summon Monster is a [summoning] subschool, and not [calling], it is a manifestation of a hound archon, not an actual hound archon. Per this text: Summoning a Hound Archon with Summon Monster is a [Good] and [Lawful] spell. I believe the BoED and BoVD have some insight on [Good] and [Evil] spells. Finally, this is pretty clear: To properly parse this, you need to seperate in to its component parts. 1) It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. 2) It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. 3) If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. (Note that directing it to not attack, or to attack particular enemies, can simply be included in "other actions".) So, #1 is pretty clear, but is incumbent on #2, namely, attacking you opponents. Generally, the player decides who his or her opponents are, so any summoned creature will appear and attack those whom the caster has decided are opponents. #3 is an if/then statement, with an implied else clause (if you don't like my psuedo-code, oh well). I read it as thus: IF If you can communicate with the creature THEN you can direct it not to attack OR to attack particular enemies OR or to perform other actions ELSE It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. In this reading, which I think is fairly straight forward and RAW, the summoned creature has no free will. It will either: A) Attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. Or B) If you can communicate with it, perform other actions as directed. So, a caster could summon the manifestation of a Hound Archon and direct it to attack particular opponents, namely, helpless Orphans. I don't see the need to try to come up with a Rule as to why this would not work. A Paladin gated from another plane has the same problems, and nothing protects them. However, that caster should be expecting some divine retribution from the very real and active forces of good in the DnD mythos. QFT I agree totaly with the RAW of the "Archon will kill the orphans" side of the debate. by RAW the creature is not real (as in not called), therefore it obeys explicitly your commands, it attacks what YOU persieve to be an enemy. now if you called a hound archon and ordered it to kill some orhpans that would be a different arguement. but as per the RAW (until some errata is put out) you can kill what ever you want, including but not limited to; babies, orphans, small puppies, etc, with a summon monster spell.
Manic Man 12-04-06, 10:54 PM	The hound archon will attack as directed. Why? Because to say otherwise would create the following Wizard: Break down the door. Hound: Sorry, i have an aversion to doors Wizard: Carry that gold Hound: Nope, gold clashes with my fur color Wizard: Attack the fella under compulsion to kill me. Hound: Nope, its not his fault his attacking you. Result? The spell is worthless
Mecha_Pope 12-04-06, 11:15 PM	According to the complete arcane, the summon monster spells do summon a real monster. It says that you get something like and aspect of that creature with the creature's mind, but a special body for your plane. It all comes up in a passage about getting specific creatures with summen monster. It talks about things like; "You can summon the same monster every time you cast the spell" so if you choose you can keep bugging bob the celstial eagal. It also says you can give your summons items, but you'd have to travel to their plane to give it to them. I don't have I books with me so this is mainly from memory so I hope this helps.
AKA_Bait 12-05-06, 12:00 AM	"If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." What here limits what those other actions can be? If I can order my summoned creature with "other actions" to break a door, set off a trap, or lick my boots then I can order it to kill the orphans. Of course, I agree with all the posters who already mentioned that Jimmy the Hound Archon is gonna remember me, and if I don't explicitlly tell him not to attack me when he's done, he will. If not, he'll probably be coming after me later.
PhaedrusXY 12-05-06, 01:21 AM	Wow, I really like the "lick my bootheels" idea. That sounds almost as fun as making the hound archon slaughter orphans. :D
sigea 12-05-06, 01:29 AM	My two cents as a player and DM. RAW may allow you techinically to do things, but any good DM will override "black and white" for game balance\feel. The best thing about this is, RAW states that this is a DM's right\obligation (it's in the DMG). My own personal opinion is that said Hound Archon would not commit such a pathetic act, the wizard is completely within his right to have summoned a devil\demon to do the same thing. By the way, and again personal opinion, nothing more, I would even rule that certain devils and other evil critters would not kill the orphans. Evil does mean DEPRAVED. :D
Red_Rabbit 12-05-06, 01:30 AM	As a DM and a Player, If DM is gonna change a rule and say your Archon will not attack Orphans than you need to tell the player it won't do that, because as a wizard he'd know what his spells can and can't do. So he can summon a different monster that will do what he wants to do. Plus changing Rules is just sad for a DM to do in my opinion I've never changed the rules, because I didn't like something. I'd say the Hound Archon could attack the Orphans, but I'm sure someones gonna get very upset on the side of good. Example: I wanna kill 3 Orphans they are my enemies. I wanna cast Monster Summon 5 for a Hound Archon. My enemies are the 3 Orphans (this is out of the PHB) It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. Sine Orphans are my enemies Archon will attack them. It also says (out of PHB) "If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it no to attack" which means I can tell it what to do, and who to and not to attack. I could just tell it to perform other actions such as Juggling and it will since Archons have tongues it can understand me this should not be in question. The Hound Archon does not pick it's enemies, and does not decide what it wants to do, it doesn't get any checks to say "I wouldn't do that because I'm lawful good" It just says "Yes, Sir" and does it. The Rabbit
sigea 12-05-06, 01:40 AM	Red Rabbit, you are correct, I would inform the player that said creature would not commit that act and allow them to summon a more appropriate monster. Having said that, if you have NEVER changed a rule in DND I can only think of two things, 1, you never played 2ed, or 2, you have the best players in the world that never want to step outside of what the rules say. Oh, and if you think it is sad for a DM to change the rules, I pitty your games, rules work for structure, but some things are just not covered by the rules!
Deep Blue 9000 12-05-06, 02:05 AM	I don't know why people get so worked up over a Hound Archon killing some orphans. Its a lot better than killing them with Acid Fog or Wrack, and I doubt you would send an army of outsiders after a PC who did that. Heaven knows all the bad stuff you're doing anyway, actually having a Hound Archon there won't change how they feel about it.
journeyman777 12-05-06, 02:27 AM	I hit dictionary.com for the definition of "enemy". 1. a person who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent. 2. an armed foe; an opposing military force: The army attacked the enemy at dawn. 3. a hostile nation or state. 4. a citizen of such a state. 5. enemies, persons, nations, etc., that are hostile to one another: Let's make up and stop being enemies. 6. something harmful or prejudical: His unbridled ambition is his worst enemy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like an enemy is someone that intends you harm and has the potential to act on their intent. Now, I readily admit that the spell has to go by the caster's opinion on these matters, but if you are telling me that a powerful wizard actually considers these kids a threat? The "other actions" line is entirely up to the DM as to what that includes. The summoned creature isn't going to attack the orphans the first round unless the caster actually considers them to be his "enemy'. Just saying they are means nothing to the summon.
Red_Rabbit 12-05-06, 02:34 AM	I did play 2ed for 7years, and I don't have to change anything. I do have the best players. They are serious players, and the rules are easy to understand. Unless you nit pick, and say from my point of view all the time. (Not saying anyone else does not have great players. Mine may have egos, but they aren't abusive.) Never had to change a spell, because they are all spelled out easily to understand and with examples in some cases. The Rabbit
Xeviat-DM 12-05-06, 02:52 AM	A Wizard can use Summon Monster to summon an evil monster and have it do evil; what's the difference in summoning a good monster to do it? Mechanically speaking, the wizard could just use an evocation spell to do it. Remember, "summoning" spells are different from "calling" spells. A creature "summoned" that dies while summoned is not dead. It is arguable if you're even summoning a real creature, or an idealized version of one (some sources imply one or the other). But since there is no immediate superiority between the Good creatures on the Summon Monster list and the Evil creatures on the same list, and based on my interpretation of the spell description, the Hound Archon is going to attack who the wizard tells it to. In my opinion, if you don't tell it to, it attacks who ever is attacking you; that's how it determines who your opponents are.
smrtgmp 12-05-06, 02:57 AM	I think the archon would attack the orphans.
AKA_Bait 12-05-06, 07:59 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like an enemy is someone that intends you harm and has the potential to act on their intent. Now, I readily admit that the spell has to go by the caster's opinion on these matters, but if you are telling me that a powerful wizard actually considers these kids a threat? The "other actions" line is entirely up to the DM as to what that includes. The summoned creature isn't going to attack the orphans the first round unless the caster actually considers them to be his "enemy'. Just saying they are means nothing to the summon. Whoever said they need to consider the thing a threat? I'll grant you that the Archon might not attack the orphans in the first round. That's not to say that once directed to it will have any other choice. Consider the following under your interpretation: Level 20 Wizard Casts Summon Monster 9 to take care of some unclassed goblins for him. Are you saying that according to RAW the summon doesn't do so because the goblins aren't really a threat? You have a charmed friend. He won't attack you at the direction of the (insert foe here) but he might do something that will make it in conveniant, like go and stand in front of (insert foe here). I summon Jimmy the Hound Archon and order him to grapple my buddy and keep him out of harms way. Grapple is an attack action. Are you saying it's up to the Archon because he's my friend and no threat? There is a door in my way. I summon Jimmy to break it down. He fails his check to pass the break DC so I order him to just chop the obstacle down. That is an attack action. Surley I can do this, is the door a threat? As to why heaven would care: I'm Jimmy the Hound Archon (I just love this name). I'm a good person. It's one thing for you to do evil. That makes me unhappy. It's quite another to compel me to do evil for you. That makes me spitting mad. I'm going to tell all my friends about that nonsense. Are you honestly arguing that someone doing something you disapprove of elicits an equal response to them forcing you to do it? Also, now I've seen it in person. Remember, the D&D forces of good are not like the theistic god, they are not omniscient.
Bounces 12-05-06, 08:21 AM	Whoever said they need to consider the thing a threat? I'll grant you that the Archon might not attack the orphans in the first round. That's not to say that once directed to it will have any other choice. Consider the following under your interpretation: Level 20 Wizard Casts Summon Monster 9 to take care of some unclassed goblins for him. Are you saying that according to RAW the summon doesn't do so because the goblins aren't really a threat? You have a charmed friend. He won't attack you at the direction of the (insert foe here) but he might do something that will make it in conveniant, like go and stand in front of (insert foe here). I summon Jimmy the Hound Archon and order him to grapple my buddy and keep him out of harms way. Grapple is an attack action. Are you saying it's up to the Archon because he's my friend and no threat? There is a door in my way. I summon Jimmy to break it down. He fails his check to pass the break DC so I order him to just chop the obstacle down. That is an attack action. Surley I can do this, is the door a threat? As to why heaven would care: I'm Jimmy the Hound Archon (I just love this name). I'm a good person. It's one thing for you to do evil. That makes me unhappy. It's quite another to compel me to do evil for you. That makes me spitting mad. I'm going to tell all my friends about that nonsense. Are you honestly arguing that someone doing something you disapprove of elicits an equal response to them forcing you to do it? Also, now I've seen it in person. Remember, the D&D forces of good are not like the theistic god, they are not omniscient. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. As I said when I originally weighed in on this...if you can talk to your summon then you can ask him to do other things...such as break down a door, or grapple your friend and keep him out of trouble. If you cannot talk to your summon then you would not be able to do any of the things you mentioned...because they all rely on giving you summon orders.
SiouLubb 12-05-06, 09:32 AM	I'd like to remind you of: "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. " Um. Who in their right mind could possibly consider orphans their opponent? Are the orphans kicking the PC's shins?
AKA_Bait 12-05-06, 09:41 AM	As I said when I originally weighed in on this...if you can talk to your summon then you can ask him to do other things...such as break down a door, or grapple your friend and keep him out of trouble. If you cannot talk to your summon then you would not be able to do any of the things you mentioned...because they all rely on giving you summon orders. Right, and as we continue the parade of rehash, Hound Archon's have Tounges and therefore can talk to you regardless of the language you speak. Hence, the above arguments.
AKA_Bait 12-05-06, 09:45 AM	"It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. " Um. Who in their right mind could possibly consider orphans their opponent? Are the orphans kicking the PC's shins? Probably the same guy who wants to slaughter them? I don't think we are dealing with the realm of reasonable people at this point. We are discussing murdering childern. Also, opponent doesn't mean worthy opponent. See my point about the goblin and the 20th level caster above.
Seeker95 12-05-06, 09:45 AM	If DM is gonna change a rule and say your Archon will not attack Orphans than you need to tell the player it won't do thatDefinitely. DM fiat should not come out of the blue. Nor should DM fiat hamstring a player/PC. But DM fiat is justifiable at times.
Yaeri 12-05-06, 12:04 PM	Last time I was in a summon monster discussion I ended up having my mind changed to the summoned creatures being manifestations of the real ones as opposed to the original creatures themselves. Thus I think the real creature doesn't know anything about what the manifestation is doing, so I don't think repercussions would follow. On the would an archon- part: Flavor wise, being good seems as much an inherent trait for an archon as any of its mechanical abilities. But in the case of summoning, which abilities the creature uses and which not seems up to the caster (if they can communicate). I would dare to rule that when not ordered specifically, the archon won't attack the orphans, even if that's why the player summoned it. For the rest it's too much guess-work. To keep it straight forward and simple I would just let the caster make the archon perform acts a real archon wouldn't. A called archon? No way.
Bladegeek 12-05-06, 12:07 PM	Is there something we're overlooking? Yes...nut up and tell the player he is smoking crack. Hound archon comiting an evil act....I think not.
Caliborn 12-05-06, 12:35 PM	The creature is summoned, not called, that is important. As a summoned creature it has no will of its own and really isn't an actual paragon of lawful good dog-headedness, just a projection of one. If you had called the Hound Archon, with, say, a planer binding spell, and ordered it to kill babies then it would most likely do its best to kill you.
Bounces 12-05-06, 01:22 PM	I don't think we are dealing with the realm of reasonable people at this point. Finally someone says something that I can agree with wholeheartedly and without reservation. I do not think anyone in this conversation could be considered within the realm of reasonable people. :D Just kidding...It's just I read that and I had to take it out of context.
DungeonMaster 12-05-06, 01:42 PM	Generally speaking, evil in our world is sneaky and does not wish to be discovered. Psychopaths go to great lengths to hide their evil ways, tyrants curtail media outlets and even more demure forms of evil lie, cheat and steal trying their best to not be noticed. This has entirely to do with our social mindset as slanted towards the "good" end of the moral spectrum. Summoning or calling a good creature to perform a hideous act would be the equivalent of broadcasting his evil act to the world at large, generally something twisted minds try to avoid in our world. Furthermore D&D often has deities with portfolios who can learn instantaneously of such things - be they good or evil. Without the backing of an evil deity, or power commensurate to an evil deity, the summoner's lifespan could be measured in days if not hours or minutes after the atrocity. However with sufficient power the summoner could certainly enjoy in safety his perversion, at least for a time. It's the following underlying assumption: that the world and society the caster lives in is predominantly "good", which serves to define the actions of people. If the world and society is predominantly "evil" than it's quite likely that the act would go mostly unnoticed and unpunished. It may even be heralded. In a world of good and evil gods in equal proportion, angels, demons and devils, then the most holy of good acts - such as the redemption of a demon with atonement must likewise be performed with great care as evil powers will similarly react swiftly and savagely if the knowledge is broadcast in obvious fashion. In a world which is predominantly good then good acts are the common place and the atrocity would be dealt with swiftly. I see no reason to change the rules or forbid this. As people have noted the caster could do more heinous acts all on his own. In a fantasy world the elements should be allowed to interact, the overall context of the fantasy world is the most important thing towards defining the behaviour of both good and evil.
Part-Human2 12-05-06, 03:34 PM	One of my players insists that there's nothing in the book that prevents his arcane spellcaster from using Summon Monster to conjure a hound archon (for instance) and order it to commit an evil act. While I can argue on the basis of game flavor that that shouldn't be possibe, when it comes to the rules he seems to be right (the alignment restriction on casting spells for clerics doesn't seem to count for arcane casters). Is there something we're overlooking? You're overlooking the Hound Archon's alignment. Your player is thinking that he has complete command over summoned creatures, but you do because you're the DM.
Chrono Nexus 12-05-06, 03:39 PM	You're overlooking the Hound Archon's alignment. Your player is thinking that he has complete command over summoned creatures, but you do because you're the DM. ~Insert Fiat~ because you're the DM. You see, this statement really doesn't mean anything. A DM could change anything in the game he wanted- but that does not mean he should. The spell itself does not stop the player from slaughtering orphans. If the DM stops it from happening, then it is on the DM, it has nothing to do with the spell as written.
makeshiftwings 12-05-06, 04:01 PM	Probably the same guy who wants to slaughter them? I don't think we are dealing with the realm of reasonable people at this point. We are discussing murdering childern. Also, opponent doesn't mean worthy opponent. See my point about the goblin and the 20th level caster above. I agree. Plus, if I were an orphan, and some freaky guy in a black robe summoned up a dog-man and then told it "Kill that orphan for me", I certainly would start considering him my enemy.
Burdell 12-05-06, 04:16 PM	I'll start with a question: Who are my enemies? Me, the person writing this, my enemies. I have an opinion on who my enemies are. Other people also have opinions on who my enemies are. Will these two opinions always be exactly the same? No. Therefore, who my enemies are is a subjective notion. Meaning, oh wise one, that the Hound Archon may disagree with the Evil Wizard about exactly who the Evil Wizard's enemies are. Perhaps those innocent children are not really the Evil Wizard's enemies... perhaps, just perhaps, the Evil Wizard's real enemies are the ones who are aiding/abetting/financing/approving of etc. his evil acts! Hmm, I don't see how this line of argument has anything to do with the fairly clear definition in the spell of who gets to decide who the enemies are (the caster). Disagree all you like, Hound Archon, the spell doesn't give *you* the authority to decide, any more then the people in the nearby pub get a vote. To further muddy the waters, what of a spell like Shadow Conjuration, which lets you make a quasi-real duplicate of a Conjuration spell? Do we now have an illusionary duplicate of a Hound Archon (I realize that particular summon is too high level for Shadow Conjuration to work, but the prinicipal is there) that refuses to kill orphans on moral grounds? From a DMing perspective, I think the most straightforward way to handle it is to declare the Hound Archon to be a manifestion, not a real Archon (which is called using a calling type spell). As such, it is more like a construct with a specific set of abilities; it makes no moral judgements, the consequences of actions fall completely on the caster, just as if the caster fireballed the orphans. Use any alignments purely as mechanical tools (i.e. a spell may do more/less damage based on the targets alignment). Otherwise the DM risks constantly having to second-guess which powers a summoned creature uses based on its alignment vs. the situation at hand, which has a LOT of potential to slow down a game that already risks being slowed down because of having to look up powers of said summoned critter. Aside from possibly having to make rulings on the fly that weaken the spell, which may lead to side discussions, arguments, etc. To keep a game running even vaguely smoothly, I suggest defining these spells to be mere tools of the caster, unless otherwise specified, as when you Call a Planar Ally. *Then* the book starts giving examples of how you may need to negotiate with them to get them to do what they want.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-05-06, 04:57 PM	Wow, talk about knee-jerk reactions killing a useful spell. I especially love the "if you order the hound archon to kill orphans, he's going to run you through" comment. That's really logical kids. I can imagine the PC in your campaign "I summon a demon" "he attacks you". Way to neuter spells. Summon Monster calls up a totally obedient being. End of story. The only qualifier is how much you can communicate with it. Either you point at your target, and it attacks, or you can talk to it, and you get better service. Trying to muddle things up using the creature's alignment only opens the door to making the spell completely useless. Being attacked by a golem, and you want to whip up a celestial bison? Ooops, it doesn't do anything. Bisons eat grass, and have no agressivity at all towards chunks of rock. Your fiendish rat's afraid of cats? Your summoned demon is grouchy you called it up? How ludicrous do you want to get? There's rules for adjudicating spells where the being you call up has the right to disagree, and those come with a stiff penalty for failure. Don't spread them to spells that don't work the same way (and who are arguably weaker).
darth_borehd 12-05-06, 05:16 PM	One of my players insists that there's nothing in the book that prevents his arcane spellcaster from using Summon Monster to conjure a hound archon (for instance) and order it to commit an evil act. While I can argue on the basis of game flavor that that shouldn't be possibe, when it comes to the rules he seems to be right (the alignment restriction on casting spells for clerics doesn't seem to count for arcane casters). Is there something we're overlooking? No, he is completely right. As DM, it is up to you to decide the consequences of the character's actions. It is definitely an evil act, just as if he cast fireball on the orphans. You could rule that using good-aligned monsters like this too often may attract the attention of certain deities or powerful good-aligned Outsiders. But there is nothing in the rules as written that prevents the spellcaster from doing this.
primemover003 12-05-06, 05:56 PM	Much as I would find the act abhorrent as the DM (and final arbiter of the game world) the spell would function as written. However I would note that the Goodly powers would eventually take note of these depraved acts and may act to uphold their good names/image by sending omens and signs to their clerics/servants on the plane. Most likely a group of goodly aligned adventurers would come to call on the wizard and would probably call on said celestials to exact some piping hot vengence!!! er Justice. Of course the Evil powers that be might just come a-calling to recruit said wizard to their side...
telldel 12-05-06, 06:11 PM	Okay - Here's the scenario... You are fighting a baddie. You begin summoning a creature. The creature recognizes what you are doing, and, as a ruse, polymorphs/shapechanges/casts a powerful illusion to make it look like he is a helpless child. Your summoned creatures comes into being and you command it to attack the child, telling it the baddie's true nature. Your summoned creature... A) attacks the "child." B) takes an entire round to decide the true nature of the "child" C) attacks you D) disappears E) another option WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
sigea 12-05-06, 07:16 PM	Ok, I have an interesting question, asked purely from a mechanical point of view. As many have stated, the act commited is evil from the caster only perspective, right? The summoned creature has no will of its own and hence must act as ordered, right? So, if we go "black and white" RAW only, what happens to a celestial creature that is summoned and forced to commit an evil act. More exactly, celestial creatures get a smite evil ability the same as a paladin which requires him\her \it to stick to a moral code. If said creature breaks that moral code, what happens to its smite evil abilities and others that are based on alignment\moral codes. Would it be immune to this sort of restriction as the "Caster" is the one commiting the evil act? I know that a Paladin that is forced through compulsion to commit an evil act, has committed an evil act, end of story, and hence must attone. (I remember reading this somewhere but can't remember where). Interested to hear your thoughts.
Mecha_Pope 12-05-06, 07:58 PM	According to the Complete Arcane, you can summon a monster, send it ahead to scout, then summon it again to ask it what it saw. This suggests that you are dealing with an actual concious being, who can think and remember, not just a virtual version of one. It can remember what happened to it's aspect on the prime matierial, an aferwords will act accordingly. Now, if someone took total control of me and forced me to kill babies, I would come back and kick his ass, if I had the oppertunity, and I'd probibly bring some friends. You can't mess with with inter-planer manifestations of good and evil lightly, and a player shouldn't complain when he gets bit in the ass for doing something stupid. Do you take away the consiquences of everything your pc's do? If so, you must have a messed up game.
Roland the Crownbreaker 12-05-06, 08:06 PM	Couldn't the hound archon just scare the orphans away? That would technically peform the letter of the command it was given, and it would be "to the best of his abilites" as well. After all, the spell doesn't give the caster complete control.
sigea 12-05-06, 08:09 PM	To Mecha_Pope, amen, but some people see this as DM intervention, which supposedly is not good to have in a game. Interestingly, there is another thread going that is about the opposite alignment axis with some people in this thread saying completely opposing comments, like if I summon a CE creature, will it attack other CE creatures, and if it can use an area affect spell is there anything stopping it from getting the caster in the blast radius (for spite i assume). Why is it that evil creatures seem to be allowed to vent their own free will and try to hurt the caster when good aligned creatures are forced to do the casters will without their own agenda's in mind?
xanadu 12-05-06, 08:10 PM	Couldn't the hound archon just scare the orphans away? That would technically peform the letter of the command it was given, and it would be "to the best of his abilites" as well. After all, the spell doesn't give the caster complete control. No. Summoned creatures dont make moral value judgements and act to circumvent the summoner.
Grand Theft Otto 12-05-06, 08:24 PM	Where does it say who is the one determining who the summoner's opponents are? That's right, it doesn't. It is equally as plausible that the summon determines who the summoner's opponents are. And orphans are no real opponent for a high level Wizard. Nice invocation of the "Air Bud Fallacy". The rules dont say it DOESNT work that way, so it obviously must, right? Sorry, the hound archon slays the oprphans. If you're feeling frisky, it then makes out with the celestial dog you summoned as well. Feel free to house rule otherwise, but dont use some ass backwards excuse.
Azarias 12-05-06, 08:45 PM	What an illuminating thread. I'm surprised anyone would think the summoned manifestation would fail to carry out the summoner's orders. For the eleventy-seventh time: a summons is not a calling. If you Gate in a Hound Archon and try and order it to commit an evil act, you're a masochistic loon. If you summon one to kill orphans...well, then you're just a plain old vanilla loon. A summoned hound-archon-manifestation is pretty much as pliable as a robot - or, for in-game purposes, as an astral construct. The only problem (as already stated) is communication. Nor does sending a summons to scout and report prove its sentience (as previously said), any more than it would prove the sentience of an astral construct, or a spy drone. The summons is not the creature. Now, what it is is a bit hazy. One possible interpretation (with no basis in the rules whatsoever): what you summon is the pliable dreaming subconscious of a single sleeping hound archon, manifested into a prime material body. The archon hasn't therefore been forced to commit an evil act in this case. It has simply experienced a dream of the potential harm that evil can cause, and may or may not remember the dream. If the DM has the free time to work out a subplot revolving around said archon, fine...but really, life and gaming time are too short for this. Much better to think of Summons as simple and effective combat spells. It is quite clear that Summons are not real and complete creatures. You might as well tangle yourself up in the morality of a fireball as that of a summoned archon. Game minutes are better spent in other ways.
Part-Human2 12-05-06, 10:30 PM	... Summon Monster calls up a totally obedient being. End of story. The only qualifier is how much you can communicate with it..... How ludicrous do you want to get? There's rules for adjudicating spells where the being you call up has the right to disagree, and those come with a stiff penalty for failure. Don't spread them to spells that don't work the same way (and who are arguably weaker). Where does it say they're totally obedient? PHB pg 173 under Summoning spells "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilies it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells." So they're not totally obediant. Granted, under the Summon Monster spell description it does indeed attack your opponents to the best of its ability but otherwise you can only direct it. The word direct is used, not order, not command, not control. Thank WotC for being unclear again but the rules don't imply total obedience. ~Insert Fiat~ because you're the DM. You see, this statement really doesn't mean anything. A DM could change anything in the game he wanted- but that does not mean he should. The spell itself does not stop the player from slaughtering orphans. If the DM stops it from happening, then it is on the DM, it has nothing to do with the spell as written. Read my full post. The DM controls summoned creatures and every other creature, NPC, monster in the world except for the PCs. The summoned Hound Archon is an intelligent Good creature that the DM controls. The caster has the option to trick it if he so choses.
sigea 12-05-06, 10:35 PM	So, let me get this straight, A summoned monster works for all intents and purposes as a mindless construct\astral construct in that it does whatever the caster tells it to. It's intelligence and alignment are irrelevant yet you MUST be able to speak the creatures language to tell it to do anything more than kill your opponents. Also, as stated earlier, a summoned creature that is used for scouting retains the intelligence to have a memory? Interestingly this begs the question, if attacking an opponent to the best of its abilities, does it take into consideration the harm it may cause to the caster? So, if we want to use RAW, where is the distinction between a summoned creature attacking mindlessly (eg not using special abilities) yet to the best of it's abilities while having to speak it's language yet it possesing no intelligence worth noting but being able to remember things. I am all confused on interpretation.
saidin0111 12-05-06, 10:51 PM	if I'm not mistaken, in some earlier edition of D&D, an arcane summoner had to have a contest of wills with anything they summoned, if they won, it obeyed them, if they lost, it attacked them, I know for certain, this was true in the comp. game Baldur's Gate II, but I'm not entirely certain about the pen and paper for that rules edition, also in the same game, divine casters automatically controlled their summons, but that was due to alignment similarities required to use divine summoning
TheCobra 12-05-06, 11:18 PM	Eh, with gate, you could call up a Solar and make it rape and murder virgins. Then you could use its wish for personal gain. As a final insult, you're free to physically violate the mighty angel. Yeah, it'd come after you later, but then you get gate in the Epic monster of your choice to defeat it.
runestar 12-05-06, 11:26 PM	Yeah, it'd come after you later, but then you get gate in the Epic monster of your choice to defeat it. Yeah, like an infernal...that solar wouldn't stand a chance...;)
Prak, the Mad 12-05-06, 11:32 PM	Where does it say who is the one determining who the summoner's opponents are? That's right, it doesn't. It is equally as plausible that the summon determines who the summoner's opponents are. And orphans are no real opponent for a high level Wizard. actually, it DOES. in the very DEFINITION of the word 'Opponent'. Opponent means one who opposes you, or alternately, one you oppose. It is also implied that people you attack are your opponents. Thus, if the Wizard attacks the orphans, they are his opponents, and thus any summoned creature will attack them also. This is not to say there will not be ramifications, the wizard will likely end up being declared a mortal enemy of good and will be beset by celestials at every turn. and what's wrong with getting a cheap thrill from making good do evil? The only problem I see is that he's taking the easy way out...
User5127 12-05-06, 11:42 PM	According to the Complete Arcane, you can summon a monster, send it ahead to scout, then summon it again to ask it what it saw. This suggests that you are dealing with an actual concious being, who can think and remember, not just a virtual version of one. It can remember what happened to it's aspect on the prime matierial, an aferwords will act accordingly. Now, if someone took total control of me and forced me to kill babies, I would come back and kick his ass, if I had the oppertunity, and I'd probibly bring some friends. You can't mess with with inter-planer manifestations of good and evil lightly, and a player shouldn't complain when he gets bit in the ass for doing something stupid. Do you take away the consiquences of everything your pc's do? If so, you must have a messed up game. umm can i get that page from complete arcane? i can't seem to find it. and that smacks of being a variant. since you can use called creatures in that way because the creature is real. but a summon is not. nothing happens when it dies. and what it does wouldn't affect it's alignement of the real creature. the Hound Archon would probably become TN for the rest of the duration of the spell. it is a creature, but it does have to kill those kids to the best of its ability. once the spell is over though the creature disapears. back into the ethers from whence it came. no harm no foul. to the creature anyways.
saidin0111 12-05-06, 11:48 PM	I don't know if anyone noticed the part where if the summons gets killed, it takes the creature 24 hours to reform, thus it implies that it summons a real being, but that it safegaurds it from any lasting harm, therefore, whatever is done while it is summoned has no effect on it later, if anything otherwise happened, I would think that all outsiders would be questing to rid the multiverse of the knowledge of summoning, I mean, heck look how touchy they can be with calling
User5127 12-06-06, 12:20 AM	I don't know if anyone noticed the part where if the summons gets killed, it takes the creature 24 hours to reform, thus it implies that it summons a real being, but that it safegaurds it from any lasting harm, therefore, whatever is done while it is summoned has no effect on it later, if anything otherwise happened, I would think that all outsiders would be questing to rid the multiverse of the knowledge of summoning, I mean, heck look how touchy they can be with calling again you are thinking about a variant here. if I summon a hound archon and it dies, I can still summon another if I have the spell prepared in some way. I don't need to wait 24 hours. the creature is real only inso far as minor creation creates a real lasting thing. there is a variant out there that lets you summon creatures that are specific and you can get that creature to scout ahead, summon it back, and then get it to tell you what it saw. you can go to the creatures home plane and give it stuff and it will appear with that stuff. and so on. but by RAW you get a blank slate creature every time you cast. meaning the hound archon I summon isn't a real creature, it doesn't have a family, doesn't have a life, if it dies nothing bad happens to it, it blinks out in an AMF (unlike a called creature), I can order it to bend over and sodomize it and next time I summon the same creature it wouldn't know what I did last time. because the creature isn't a real creature. its a copy of the real thing. called creatures are the real thing. if they die they die. if you sodomize Jimmy the Hound Archon, and call him back, he will remember you. etc. calls and summons are different. its important to remember that.
saidin0111 12-06-06, 12:27 AM	I didn't mean to imply that you can't use it again for 24 hours, as that would mean using the same exact being each time, but from what I understand, it uses the essence, or some such, of a random generic member of that race, and if that essence is dispersed by destroying the summoned creature, the actual creature it came from reforms in 24 hours, and I believe it is in the spell description in the PHB, or at least somewhere in the core books, not as a variant
sigea 12-06-06, 01:10 AM	So User5127, if I summon a Hound Archon which is supposed to act out of alignment because it doesn't really have one does that mean it is not affect by spells such as protection from good, or worse, forbiddence? Also intelligence is a non factor apparently, so does that mean that ray of idiocy (I think that is the int damage one) won't affect it either? What about special abilities like smite evil\smite good, does that work on a summoned creature. After all, its not a real version of the creature. I am just interested that the people seem to be saying it is compulsed to do your bidding and alignment\intelligence is not a factor, so the summoned creature should not be impacted from other spells that would impact those traits. Really, you can't say that a creature acts mindlessly when told to do things but would still be impacted by everything else.
User5127 12-06-06, 01:29 AM	So User5127, if I summon a Hound Archon which is supposed to act out of alignment because it doesn't really have one does that mean it is not affect by spells such as protection from good, or worse, forbiddence? Also intelligence is a non factor apparently, so does that mean that ray of idiocy (I think that is the int damage one) won't affect it either? What about special abilities like smite evil\smite good, does that work on a summoned creature. After all, its not a real version of the creature. I am just interested that the people seem to be saying it is compulsed to do your bidding and alignment\intelligence is not a factor, so the summoned creature should not be impacted from other spells that would impact those traits. Really, you can't say that a creature acts mindlessly when told to do things but would still be impacted by everything else. I said its not real insofar and minor creation doesn't create a real thing. The hound archon is still affected by spells that affect alignment. but just because a paladin is LG doesn't mean he can't murder something. same goes for the hound archon. I summon him and tell him to kill orphans, he does it. its not a LG act, but he does it. so his alignment would shift for the duration of the spell (if the DM ruled that way, and i'd rule that way). And I never said it was a mindless zombie like creature. the archon is very smart. and touch of idiocy would affect it. but Its int score doesn't prevent the Summoned creature from doing what the spell says it would do. wich is what you tell it to do. Alignment/int is a very big factor, but only in terms of what the summon will recieve for reprocussions of its actions. the L and G won't keep it from killing what I tell it to kill. but I can tell you it won't be LG for very long if I tell it to do that. And again. Never said it was mindless. and those that did, did it in a comparative way. as in Like mindless creature. not it IS a mindless creature. two very very different things. EDIT: as well, never did I say it was a free lunch for the character. meaning he can't do that and expect to get away with it. the forces of good will notice, and not take kindly to the wizards soiling goods name in such a way. ( i know you didn't say that I said that specifically, i'm just making my standpoint more clear)
Red_Rabbit 12-06-06, 01:30 AM	Hound Archon does anything the Summoner tells it to do no matter what except cast spells that have an EXP cost. That's it doesn't matter what the alignment is. The Hound Archon comes straight out of the MM for monster Stats. It has no choice it can't say yes or no. It just does what it's told by the summoner. Anything any of you post about the Hound Archon getting a choice is just YOU HOUSE RULING IT, because the idea of a Celestial type killing Orphans is disgust to you. This post should of died out already. Just let the man House rule it as he wants and play the game. The Rabbit
Part-Human2 12-06-06, 02:23 AM	... but by RAW you get a blank slate creature every time you cast. meaning the hound archon I summon isn't a real creature, it doesn't have a family, doesn't have a life, if it dies nothing bad happens to it, it blinks out in an AMF (unlike a called creature), I can order it to bend over and sodomize it and next time I summon the same creature it wouldn't know what I did last time. because the creature isn't a real creature. its a copy of the real thing. ... calls and summons are different. its important to remember that. Go back to PHB pg 173 under Conjuration Summoning spells it says "A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from.... So they do exist before and after summoning.
saidin0111 12-06-06, 03:05 AM	yep, it just wipes the slate clean after the spell ends, though if they die, it takes 24 hours to reform, which might annoy them if they had any plans for the day, which they most likely did if they are an intelligent creature, whereas a minute or so of their time (if they don't die) is likely to be less of an annoyance note that whatever a summoned creature does, does not affect it in any way after they spell ends, though what a called creature does can have a lasting effect on it, such as death, alignment shifts, equipment acquired or lost, spells used, etc., though start barking out its truename (ToM) and it might be a little more compliant than normal
im_robertb 12-06-06, 03:19 AM	Here's an in-game way of dealing with it: A god knows immediately when one of his followers has broken the faith, and stops granting that follower divine powers. Archons and such can certainly be interpreted as followers, so the god could at least decide to make Jimmy a 'fallen' hound archon, taking away its spellike abilities, DR, aura of menace, etc., if not making the archon cease to exist entirely (it depends on how divinity works in your game.) Atonement would be required to recover from this fallen status, although how lenient the deity would be is again a matter of interpretation. It still has to listen to you, and it still has its BAB, HP, scenting, skills, and such, but the light of its god has abanonded it. Merely putting forth a sort-of in between option for those who don't want to change the RAW nor have this be a good option for a spellcaster.
saidin0111 12-06-06, 03:27 AM	one should note that the actions of a summoned creature have no impact on it after the spell ends, and it doesn't violate its faith by being summoned, how is that possible when the spell ends, its almost like it gets heal, greater restoration, atonement, and anything else it might need cast on it, though there is that delay on ressurection
Deviston 12-06-06, 03:28 AM	wasnt one of the options of what a summon can do "other actions"? Ok. So orphans arent opponents (but i do agree that if you attack one it will see you as an opponent) so then attacking them falls under "other actions". Attacking non-opponents. Or attacking helpless puppy snacks. Whatever. But do you see how that flies?
Newpaintbrush 12-06-06, 05:37 AM	Summoned monsters that come from Summon Monster spells are bound to the will of the caster. There is a difference between Summon Monster spells and Planar Ally spells, or even Gate spells. If you cast a Summon Monster spell, the summoned monster attacks your enemies. IF you can communicate with the summoned monster, you can direct it, and it must follow your directions. The creature you summon with a Summon Monster spell has a mind, but whether or not it likes your directions, it just has to do it. Note that summoned monsters DO fight to the death, which is NOT something that a normal creature is going to do. I feel that is conclusive evidence that the Summon Monster spell makes creatures behave in ways that they normally would not do. So if I summon a flying monster with a Summon Monster spell, and I tell it to take a rope up to the top of a cliff, the DM would be justified in 1) stating that I find it difficult to communicate with a creature with an Intelligence of three, 2) stating that the summoned creature could possibly misinterpret my words. But the DM would NOT be justified in stating that the monster decides to attack me because it's hungry, or saying that the monster has moral compunctions about performing the duties I set it, or that the monster just doesn't like rope. Similarly, if I summon a hound archon with Summon Monster, and tell it to EAT babies, it must do so. It doesn't HAVE to like doing it. As far as retribution goes, I would not allow it. Basically, I figure that every wizard and sorcerer and cleric etc. etc. can summon these monsters, and order them around. If summonable monsters kept grudge books, they would just go insane trying to remember it all. Monsters summoned through a Gate, or Planar Ally, sure. But not Summon Monster.
AKA_Bait 12-06-06, 11:05 AM	As far as retribution goes, I would not allow it. Basically, I figure that every wizard and sorcerer and cleric etc. etc. can summon these monsters, and order them around. If summonable monsters kept grudge books, they would just go insane trying to remember it all. Monsters summoned through a Gate, or Planar Ally, sure. But not Summon Monster. Why would most summoned monsters keep extensive grudge books? They wouldn't any more than real people do. In this sort of universe if you are a summonable critter, it's just a part of life that occasionally you get ripped away from whatever you were doing to obey the commands of some caster or another. It's what you do when you are ripped away that could put something in your grudge book, like your boss asking you to do something you find morally questionable when normally he just asks you to do mundane things. Think of it this way: Jimmy's normal day: Wake up, get summoned and smite some goblins, have breakfast, get summoned and beat down a door, go do whatever celestials do after breakfast, get summoned and translate a conversation. Nothing here Jimmy is probably even going to bother remembering. Now take: Jimmy's abnormal day: Wake up, get summoned and smite some goblins, have breakfast, get summoned and beat down a door, go do whatever celestials do after breakfast, get summoned and kill orphans. It's only the ones that are really out of the norm and against what they would normally be summoned for that they might remember and take note of. So no, they wouldn't keep grudge books about being summoned by itself, but they might based on what they were made to do. Similarly, a summoned demon that was commanded to pull a Paladin from a burning house might take note. Of course, they might not know who you are. Nothing in the summoning spell says that you need give Jimmy your name and address as part of the spell. So he can only come after you if he can find you or if you happen to run into him again later for some reason.
bitnine 12-06-06, 01:32 PM	Heh, this reminds me of another thread with a player who had a good-aligned summoner character detailing problems with his DM. He couldn't summon demons because bringing evil creatures into the world was ruled an evil act. He couldn't summon celestials because exerting such control over good creatures was also ruled an evil act - in fact, one celestial slapped the player for his arrogance and took off. Me? I'd tell the player "I'M THE DM AND I CONTROL YOUR HANDS AND THEY EXPLODE NOW!!1one" But I wouldn't try and pretend that has anything to do with the RAW.
rastlin_of_the_tomes 12-06-06, 04:10 PM	i would have to say for me, it goes like this, jimmy the hound here will attack the orphans. jimmy then would get very ****** off. jimmy then would have his master teleport him and his friends, bob and jorge to then take revenge on this wizards soon to be dismembered hide. then jimmy would get an allyed cleric that could raise dead the orphans in exchange for his services for a time. end result: orphans saw their parents for about an hour, the wizard who did it is dead, and jimmy is in service a cleric for a month or so.:D
sigea 12-06-06, 05:41 PM	User5127 I must say I agree with all your points, and most of those that followed by others but the problem from the beginning is that this vendetta\revernge aspect from the summoned creature is not supported by RAW, unfortunately. As a DM I would rule either the Hound Archon doesn't do it, or if it does, get ready for some heavenly host action but their are others out there who do not believe it is the DM's job to make players responsible for their characters options because it is not in RAW. Also, again, if the hound archon has intelligence but must do what it is told, could it not use alternative means to carry out certain options such and potentially twist the wording of the command. This would also hold true for summoning an evil creature, could it attack your opponent but intentionally include you in its area of effect (by spell, or by something like whirlwind attack)? By the way, would this mean that you could tell the hound archon, or any other intelligent outsider to give you their true name? If not (and I hope not) where is this supported in the rules? And we don't want people knowing that Jimmy the hound archons true name is cecil now do we?
Grand Theft Otto 12-06-06, 07:50 PM	Also, again, if the hound archon has intelligence but must do what it is told, could it not use alternative means to carry out certain options such and potentially twist the wording of the command. This would also hold true for summoning an evil creature, could it attack your opponent but intentionally include you in its area of effect (by spell, or by something like whirlwind attack)? No, or it would say so. Planar Binding indicates you have arent in total control, Summon Monster doesnt. Like it or not, byt the RAW, they are your *****. It says you direct them, which under any non retarded interpretation means they follow those directions. Otherwise why would it say you can direct them? Are we by similar interpretations, to understand that a deranged wizard cant attempt to direct a Wall of Stone? That somehow a magic gag order is in place, and only casters of Summon Monster can extol their creations to follow directions? That whether they do so is apparently up to them... the spell just lets you have the awe inspirng ability to request? No, the text indicating you direct them should be interpreted as they do what they are told. Change it if you want, just grow a pair and own up to it rather than hiding behind semantics.
sigea 12-06-06, 08:13 PM	Grand Theft Otto, firstly, I don't appreciate your comment at the bottom, and if this what you find amusing, maybe you should finish your homework. Secondly, what I am asking may be better explained the other way around. If I summon an demon\devil and tell it to kill all my enemies, I doubt I have to worry to much about the fact it will kill my enemies. What I do want to know, does the fact that the creature has to kill my enemies eliminate the possibility that it could catch the caster in an area of effect situation just for spite. Could the creature "accidently" kill the caster to be free of the situation, after all, if the caster gets caught in a fireball spell that the demon was using to eliminate ALL MY OPPONENTS IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE MANNER POSSIBLE isn't that the casters problem? Also, what about the true name issue?
Jaxgaret 12-06-06, 08:13 PM	I'd just like to say that many of the posters here are hilarious. You claim that I am the one twisting words, when it is in fact you kind folks who are twisting words to spell RAW where there is none. At this point, I am ashamed to be a part of this conversation. I will post no more in this thread, for the lack of sense shown here is distinctly depressing. Fie on thee. And yes, yes, I am bitter. I expected more from the boards. Sorry.
redraven 12-06-06, 08:27 PM	As far as Summoned creatures go, I make sure the player has printed off the stat block from the SRD beforehand and have the player essentially play both his character and the summoned creature. If the character cannot direct the summoned being (because the character cannot communicate with it) then I will generally roll for that creature, but never once do I imagine that the summoned creature has a choice in the matter. Most of the animal-like creatures would probably flee once they lose 50% of more of their HP, but if a summoned animal-like creature did that it would: (A) severely nerf the Summon spells more than they already are, and (B) raise crippling philosophical issues that are not at all supported in the spell text. The Summon spells do not mention anything about opposed Charisma checks, alignment being a factor in their casting (aside from a cleric's inability to cast spells of an opposed alignment), or that creatures summoned follow their own agendas (i.e. demons including the summoner in area effect spells, etc). On a somewhat related note, I find the notion of immediate and complete summoner annihilation upon using a Hound Archon to kill orphans a little nauseating. While Jimmy the Archon may be particularly displeased in his assigned task, it really makes no sense in the context of an entire multiverse that is at war with itself to devote a host of celestials to take out Bob the Evil Summoner. While your individual game cosmologies may include an immediate "rocks fall, everyone dies" clause for evil acts, it strikes me as incredibly asinine and spiteful as a DM. If this use of a Hound Archon (or any intelligent celestial creature) is not merely an isolated incident but rather a trend or persistent behavior, perhaps. Or if these particular orphans were vital to the cause of Good everywhere, maybe. But sending a CR 14 Angel every time one of your players wants to tread into a (somewhat) gray area of the rules is not at all conducive to a rational cosmology and/or game-world.
bitnine 12-06-06, 09:16 PM	On a somewhat related note, I find the notion of immediate and complete summoner annihilation upon using a Hound Archon to kill orphans a little nauseating. While Jimmy the Archon may be particularly displeased in his assigned task, it really makes no sense in the context of an entire multiverse that is at war with itself to devote a host of celestials to take out Bob the Evil Summoner. While your individual game cosmologies may include an immediate "rocks fall, everyone dies" clause for evil acts, it strikes me as incredibly asinine and spiteful as a DM. If this use of a Hound Archon (or any intelligent celestial creature) is not merely an isolated incident but rather a trend or persistent behavior, perhaps. Or if these particular orphans were vital to the cause of Good everywhere, maybe. But sending a CR 14 Angel every time one of your players wants to tread into a (somewhat) gray area of the rules is not at all conducive to a rational cosmology and/or game-world.I do believe that you are, in fact, filled with the win.
Manic Man 12-06-06, 10:29 PM	I'd just like to say that many of the posters here are hilarious. You claim that I am the one twisting words, when it is in fact you kind folks who are twisting words to spell RAW where there is none. At this point, I am ashamed to be a part of this conversation. I will post no more in this thread, for the lack of sense shown here is distinctly depressing. Fie on thee. And yes, yes, I am bitter. I expected more from the boards. Sorry. You fail to see what RAW means. RAW means rules as written. No moral judgements. Too many people fail to understand RAW because it offends their moral compass or their own desires. That said RAW is not everything. If the DM allows it fine. If not fine. Just don't attempt to ram your moral judgements down other peoples throats
User5127 12-06-06, 11:21 PM	User5127 I must say I agree with all your points, and most of those that followed by others but the problem from the beginning is that this vendetta\revernge aspect from the summoned creature is not supported by RAW, unfortunately. As a DM I would rule either the Hound Archon doesn't do it, or if it does, get ready for some heavenly host action but their are others out there who do not believe it is the DM's job to make players responsible for their characters options because it is not in RAW. Also, again, if the hound archon has intelligence but must do what it is told, could it not use alternative means to carry out certain options such and potentially twist the wording of the command. This would also hold true for summoning an evil creature, could it attack your opponent but intentionally include you in its area of effect (by spell, or by something like whirlwind attack)? By the way, would this mean that you could tell the hound archon, or any other intelligent outsider to give you their true name? If not (and I hope not) where is this supported in the rules? And we don't want people knowing that Jimmy the hound archons true name is cecil now do we? Oh, I understand that the revenge aspect isn't supported. and believe me, if a wizard did it in my campaign, sure fine. go for it. but do it to much and just like any evil act, the forces of good will take notice. its teh same as if the mage used firballs on the kids. ppl will notice. and take action. so i'd give the mage the option to do it. he can enjoy the irony of it. be because what he is doing is murder, his alignment would eventually shift to represent evil (if not alread) and more evil acts will warrant action on the side of good. I don't think the twisting of the wording to hurt the caster would be an option. the summon is supposed to protect you, if you are in the way for one of its attacks it would have to morve so that you aren't or use another attack. exception being it voices its inability to make said attack and oyu give it permission to make the attack anyways. for that i'd rule it to be a free action (like crying out for help) and an free action for your response. (though the summon acts on your turn anyways. so it makes no real difference). for the true name, iirc even characters don't know their true names and would have to make the appropraite research to discover them. so i'm guessing the summon wouldn't know its true name and therefore wouldn't be able to tell it to you. if you could keep it around long enough you could mabye make the check or get it to research its true name. but otherwise. they wouldn't know it. now if a creature knows its true name (for example i'm wrong with the assumption that no one knows their true name with out researching it), then asking it to tell you what it is shouldn't be a problem. but it is a summoned creature. so mabye it doesn't have a true name. *shrugs* i don't care. summons were creatued before the true name mechanic. and that mechanic can seriously affect how summon spells work. the implicatioins would either make the spell to powerful or nerf it. either way i'd house rule you can't true name a summon.
Jaxgaret 12-07-06, 11:24 AM	You fail to see what RAW means. RAW means rules as written. No moral judgements. Too many people fail to understand RAW because it offends their moral compass or their own desires. That said RAW is not everything. If the DM allows it fine. If not fine. Just don't attempt to ram your moral judgements down other peoples throats Sigh. I feel the need to respond to this post (and break my commitment not to post in this thread) because this is exactly the sort of thing I found to be disappointing. Look at my previous posts... do you see any moral judgements being made whatsoever? Did I take offense, or umbrage, at anything in the spell? No. In my posts I was speaking purely from the point of view of RAW. I agree that this spell needs to be looked at from the point of view of RAI, because there is no RAW on that particular issue. Don't read meanings that aren't there into things. That is all.
Azarias 12-07-06, 01:08 PM	Jax, lord only knows there are plenty of grey areas in the RAW. This isn't one of them. The only ambiguity that is worth picking up in all this is the lack of clarity on the actual nature of the summoned manifestation. What is not an issue is that the manifestation obeys the caster within the constraints of the spell. I am afraid that you do appear to be playing with semantics in your previous posts. Whether (as Manic Man observes) you are doing so because you find the archon-orphan issue distasteful or not, the Summon spell description is clear, RAW. The caster commands the summoned manifestation, while the manifestation - regardless of the intelligence or alignment of the creature it represents - obeys the caster without question. Please do not fall into the old trap of saying (again) 'It doesn't say it doesn't'. There is a name for this kind of fallacy on the boards. Think about it for a sec and you'll see it's not a valid way of pursuing an argument.
Azarias 12-07-06, 01:17 PM	I'd also like to repeat a phrase from redraven's post: "Crippling philosophical issues." It is awful easy for d&d to get bogged down in minutiae. If you're DMing, and you want to introduce a side-quest of a Celestial Porpoise tracking down its summoner for that time it had to kill orphans - well, you're the DM, that's your prerogative, and who knows, it might prove a fun side quest. The problem is, what happens if this side-quest occurs *every time* a caster summons a creature? Or, if you like, every time the caster orders the summons to do something it would object to? Now what? How many days do you have to play the game, exactly? Wasn't there something else the players wanted to be doing? Something else you wanted them to be doing? A princess or a world to save? But no: Derek cast Summon Celestial Porpoise, and got it to headbutt an innocent squid to death, and now it's Return of the Porpoise Time. Again. It's not that the idea of self-regulating summons isn't interesting. It's that the game doesn't have time for it. The game must go on, and while one angry hound archon might be a part of that game, Angry Jimmy Number Nine is going to kill it stone dead.
imneuromancer 12-07-06, 01:52 PM	Here is my take on the matter. As mentioned before, summonings bring forth a "type" of creature, an "ideal" of it, not an actual creature. So summoning an archon conjures forth an "ideal" of an archon that then helps you out. If you use it in an evil act (i.e. orphans), then you will (eventually) become evil and no longer be able to summon forth that type of creature. However, it depends on the GM how many of these evil acts it takes to no longer be "good" for purposes of the spell. There is a long tradition of this debate on the druid side of things. Let's say a druid summons forth a wolf to go in front of him and trigger various deadly traps so that the druid is unharmed. Is this against the druidic creed since you are basically summoning an animal and essentially gauranteeing its demise? No, it isn't against the druidic creed. First, what is the difference between summoning a wolf as trap fodder and summoning a wolf in combat where it will most likely die fighting? Nothing, really. Also, the basic idea behind summons is that you are making a "pact" with whatever force you are summoning to help you out. In this case, you are asking the forces of nature to come and help you with some traps. You are not actually killing any natural creature, you are simply asking for its help in doing X dangerous thing (fighting, traps, whatever). To stipulate otherwise goes WAAAY beyond the scope of the spell as both RAW, RAI, or even in a logical/ethical way. So the same thing goes for your Archon: you are asking the plane of Good to help you out, and if you do bad things with it, then eventually they are not going to help you out anymore. Rules mechanically, this is where alignment comes into play, as noted above.
Azarias 12-07-06, 02:02 PM	Actually, rules mechanically, none of that comes into play unless you're a cleric (or druid). And the Good cleric who uses his summons to kill orphans will lose a lot more than his Archons. An evil sorcerer can summon all the archons he likes, and he can do with them as he wishes. This - "You are asking the plane of Good to help you out, and if you do bad things with it, then eventually they are not going to help you out anymore" - is interpretation. It is not supported by the rules. If it were, then the evil sorcerer would have no archons. By the same measure, the idea that you are making a 'pact' is interpretation. You make a pact when you Call a creature. You do not make a pact when you summon one.
Jaxgaret 12-07-06, 02:04 PM	Jax, lord only knows there are plenty of grey areas in the RAW. This isn't one of them. The only ambiguity that is worth picking up in all this is the lack of clarity on the actual nature of the summoned manifestation. What is not an issue is that the manifestation obeys the caster within the constraints of the spell. I am afraid that you do appear to be playing with semantics in your previous posts. Whether (as Manic Man observes) you are doing so because you find the archon-orphan issue distasteful or not, the Summon spell description is clear, RAW. The caster commands the summoned manifestation, while the manifestation - regardless of the intelligence or alignment of the creature it represents - obeys the caster without question. Please do not fall into the old trap of saying (again) 'It doesn't say it doesn't'. There is a name for this kind of fallacy on the boards. Think about it for a sec and you'll see it's not a valid way of pursuing an argument. You are correct, sir, I am playing with semantics. But that is what a RAW determination demands, by its very nature. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool)... Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. Anyone care to discuss this nugget of information? Here is the whole section, read the part about a summon casting spells with an XP cost a little further down as well. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning By the way, I'm not posting that link as an argument for or against my point of view, but just as some additional information for the discussion, which is always helpful.
Azarias 12-07-06, 02:11 PM	Sure. What the nugget of information says is that creatures Conjured may or may not obey. There are two, very distinct types of Conjured creatures. There are Callings and there are Summonings. In the case of Calling a creature, it is the real creature that appears, you are required to bargain with the creature, and the creature is under no obligation to obey you. In the case of Summoned creatures, you are directed to the spell Summon Monster, which states, with no ambiguity, that the summoned manifestation obeys you according to the wording of the spell. ;) (as for the Refusing to expend XP clause...yes, it's an exception to the rule; and the exception proves the rule, as they say. If the archon could refuse anything else, would it appear to an evil sorcerer?)
AKA_Bait 12-07-06, 02:15 PM	It's not that the idea of self-regulating summons isn't interesting. It's that the game doesn't have time for it. The game must go on, and while one angry hound archon might be a part of that game, Angry Jimmy Number Nine is going to kill it stone dead. See my above post about the psychology of a summoned creature and revenge. You don't need to cripple your plot with this and there is no reason to think you have to. This is what I like to call the fallacy of the slippery slope. Just because doing it all the time would be a problem doesn't mean that a) it shouldn't work that way per RAW (which is by no means the standard for the best way to play), b) because you do it sometimes means you have to do it all the time. Ultimatley, the DM decides if the summoned creature is ******. As such, it can never be other than what is in line with what the group/DM does. If a player keeps doing things with summoned creatures that would bring about this kind of scenario then that player needs to rethink what they are doing in terms of the group as well. It's not really diffrent than the player who decides to stab local nobility as a habit. That is certianly in the rules. Also, to be clear this is conjuration not evocation. You do not create Jimmy from nothing. Per the RAW it is the actual, real, creature in the flesh (or whatever passes for flesh for that creature). It is taken from it's own plane and manifested on the material plane. It is not a copy of the thing or a fake thing. It's the real thing and nothing in RAW ever even implies that it doesn't retain its memories of what it did when summoned.
Jaxgaret 12-07-06, 02:21 PM	Alright. So if it is within RAW for an arcanely summoned Hound Archon to slaughter babies (which it is looking like more and more each moment), I have a related but different question: How exactly does the summoner gain this control over the summon? There is no compulsion component to the spell. There is no saving throw involved. Is it just an intrinsic part of being a summonable creature that you lose your free will if summoned? Why are they allowed to refuse to cast spells that cost XP, but nothing else? Yes, I understand that game balance is the answer to the last one. I'm looking for IG reasoning.
AKA_Bait 12-07-06, 02:25 PM	Why are they allowed to refuse to cast spells that cost XP, but nothing else? Because otherwise the munchkin possibilites are endless. They also won't cast summon spells.
Azarias 12-07-06, 02:37 PM	Jax - in some previous editions, and in some different systems, the summoner would have to gain control (or at least bargain) with each and every summons. That no longer applies to summons. Why? Because the game must go on. Players all want and need their turn at the table. If the summoner is taking up ten minutes each time he summons Jimmy, that's bad news. Bad game design. Regardless of whether it be oversimplification of the philosophy involved, simple summoning is good game design. So: why doesn't Jimmy get a save? (a) Because that's 10 seconds of game time, and a nerf to an otherwise balanced spell. And also (b) Because it's not exactly Jimmy. And now we're back on the one real ambiguity. It's Jimmy's subconscious. It's the group consciousness of Jimmy's ancestors. Or it's Jimmy, but not as his mother knows him. In any case, we know it's not the whole and unadulterated Jimmy, since he can't die and he doesn't argue over orphan-killing. Whatever archonness the summoned manifestation has, it's not enough to justify making a save vs compulsion. But personally, I reckon the designers cared more about (a) than (b). And I'm glad about that. edit: why no XP spells? I'm afraid that's almost certainly (a), isn't it? If you wanted an in-game reason (and so this is pure interpretation) you could say that the summoning bond doesn't allow XP transfer, and that the summons doesn't 'refuse' the casting as a dissenter might, but as a horse might 'refuse' a 20' jump - ie. because the horse knows it is impossible.
Yaeri 12-07-06, 02:45 PM	How exactly does the summoner gain this control over the summon? There is no compulsion component to the spell. There is no saving throw involved. Is it just an intrinsic part of being a summonable creature that you lose your free will if summoned? Why are they allowed to refuse to cast spells that cost XP, but nothing else? As I understand it, the summon monster spells create loyal manifestations of creatures. They don't bring the creatures themselves. So there's nothing to lose free will. It's like creating an unseen servant. For the moment I read it in this order: 1) You create a fake creature that does your bidding. 2) This fake creature has the exact abilities of an existing outsider. I find the wording of the summon monster spells somewhat ambiguous in the light of the wording of conjurations in general. The first using words like "bringing something", "returning it to where it came from", the latter saying you "create a manifestation". Bringin something over and returning it where it came from, doesn't at all sound like you're creating a copy of something. I think the likeliness of the summon possibly having a free will, is tightly tied to which wording is most closely followed. As to the XP-cost, it is a balance reason. If you want to find an in game reason I'd suggest either of the following: 1) The manifestation you create with the summon spell is just that: a manifestation. Thus it doesn't have any XP. 2) The manifestation is an exact copy of the creature, aside from some minor differences. Not having its spell like abilities that cost XP is one of them.
AKA_Bait 12-07-06, 03:13 PM	As I understand it, the summon monster spells create loyal manifestations of creatures. They don't bring the creatures themselves. So there's nothing to lose free will. It's like creating an unseen servant. For the moment I read it in this order: 1) You create a fake creature that does your bidding. 2) This fake creature has the exact abilities of an existing outsider. Again, conjuration not evocation. A manifestation is sort of like pulling the thing into this plane but not quite all the way, as a ghost manifests, not creating it. A ghost manifest on the material plane is not a copy of it from the etherial plane. Evocation is the school of magic that creates something from nothing as in Tiny Hut and Blade Barrier. Conjuration moves or manipulates already existant things.
Yaeri 12-07-06, 03:37 PM	A manifestation is sort of like pulling the thing into this plane but not quite all the way, as a ghost manifests, not creating it. A ghost manifest on the material plane is not a copy of it from the etherial plane. Thanks for the clarification. Now I once again have to rethink my view on summoning creatures. Seems I had it right the first time. I better go read the whole section through thoroughly.
Azarias 12-07-06, 03:49 PM	That's elegant, but like anything else we come up with ourselves re what a summoned manifestation is, it's an interpretation. A ghost killed on the prime material dies. A summons does not. They're not the same. I like the point about Conjuration not being Evocation. Still, SM and SNA are the most disposable forms of Conjuration. They're not (Creations). They last a matter of seconds. They can't die or act with free will, and they refuse (or cannot) expend XP. They may not be evocations, but neither are they anything as real as a manifested ghost, which can do all those things. Mechanically, it's pretty clear they're meant to be a very streamlined form of Conjuration - quick and simple. In-game, that streamlined nature creates complications. The ghost interpretation sounds good, but it's not complete.
AKA_Bait 12-07-06, 03:56 PM	No, of course it's not, the rules are pretty clear though, unintuitive as they may seem. They are brought to the material plane and return when the spell duration expires or it is dispelled. As they are brought they are altered into this odd and intelectually disquieting form that has no free will other than very specific exceptions and cannot die but can be disbursed for 24 hours. Does this jive with our usualy mechanistic view of the world? Nope. But hey, we are playing a fantasy roleplaying game here after all.
imneuromancer 12-07-06, 04:03 PM	Actually, rules mechanically, none of that comes into play unless you're a cleric (or druid). And the Good cleric who uses his summons to kill orphans will lose a lot more than his Archons. An evil sorcerer can summon all the archons he likes, and he can do with them as he wishes. Very true, wizards are far more flexible in their ability to do "morally damaging" things and not lose their power. This - "You are asking the plane of Good to help you out, and if you do bad things with it, then eventually they are not going to help you out anymore" - is interpretation. It is not supported by the rules. If it were, then the evil sorcerer would have no archons. I agree, it is more an interpretation than a rule mechanic. The PHB states about good/evil descriptors that, "Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells..." Basically, I was trying to state that casting an [evil] spell (or a spell that is used in an evil way) may have more "intangible" effects on characters that the GM should adjudicate (i.e. alignment changes, loss of clerical power, etc.) but have no immediate game effect per se, like having a troupe of hound archons swoop in or something, which earlier people had suggested. By the same measure, the idea that you are making a 'pact' is interpretation. You make a pact when you Call a creature. You do not make a pact when you summon one. The use of the word "pact" was probably sloppy, considering it has a more specific definition in the Planar Allly or Gate spells, etc. However, I was speaking more generally that when you are summoning something, you are simply "asking" or "begging" or "cajoling" or whatever the forces that you are summoning to do an action that you want. A summoning spell is basically drawing on the caster's source of magic (whether it is evil, good, nature, arcane, whatever) to manifest and then do something that you need to do instead of doing it directly (like an evocation). This is no different than casting a glitterdust or acid fog spell instead of a fireball. This idea is more special affect than mechanics-relevant, really. The game mechanics basically state that summoning a good creature makes the spell take on the [Good] descriptor. That is it. It doesn't say that you need to use it in a certain way, or that using it "inappropriately" holds a punishment. In other words, a druid summoning a wolf is not bound to use it in some proscribed way, no more than a wizard is bound to use good (or evil) creatures in a certain way. Aside from the strict rules mechanics, though, if you cast a bunch of [evil] spells, or if you commit evil acts with spells, then the GM has the right to adjudicate an alignment change. This may or may not have effects on your character, depending on class. Further, the spell is just a conduit for your behaviour, it doesn't in itself mean you have done something against your ethos. For example, sending your summoned wolf into a trap is no different than casting a spell that sets off traps. Same moral stance. Casting a spell to do something awful to orphans, however, could be considered "evil," just as casting an [evil] spell to hand out lollipops to said orphans would be considered "good" (but still be an [evil] spell).
Azarias 12-07-06, 04:20 PM	Yep: happy to agree. Though it depends what's in those lollipops. And on the orphans (we all get to be orphans...) Over and out from me. Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Grand Theft Otto 12-07-06, 04:34 PM	Alright. So if it is within RAW for an arcanely summoned Hound Archon to slaughter babies (which it is looking like more and more each moment), I have a related but different question: How exactly does the summoner gain this control over the summon? There is no compulsion component to the spell. There is no saving throw involved. Is it just an intrinsic part of being a summonable creature that you lose your free will if summoned? Why are they allowed to refuse to cast spells that cost XP, but nothing else? Yes, I understand that game balance is the answer to the last one. I'm looking for IG reasoning. Probably because they have 0 xp to spend.
Grand Theft Otto 12-07-06, 04:39 PM	Grand Theft Otto, firstly, I don't appreciate your comment at the bottom, and if this what you find amusing, maybe you should finish your homework. Be less pedantic in your arguement next time. My patience with word twisting gamers ran out long ago. Secondly, what I am asking may be better explained the other way around. If I summon an demon\devil and tell it to kill all my enemies, I doubt I have to worry to much about the fact it will kill my enemies. What I do want to know, does the fact that the creature has to kill my enemies eliminate the possibility that it could catch the caster in an area of effect situation just for spite. Could the creature "accidently" kill the caster to be free of the situation, after all, if the caster gets caught in a fireball spell that the demon was using to eliminate ALL MY OPPONENTS IN THE MOST EFFECTIVE MANNER POSSIBLE isn't that the casters problem? Also, what about the true name issue? No, or it would say so.
Prak, the Mad 12-09-06, 04:19 PM	yep, it just wipes the slate clean after the spell ends, though if they die, it takes 24 hours to reform, which might annoy them if they had any plans for the day, which they most likely did if they are an intelligent creature, whereas a minute or so of their time (if they don't die) is likely to be less of an annoyance note that whatever a summoned creature does, does not affect it in any way after they spell ends, though what a called creature does can have a lasting effect on it, such as death, alignment shifts, equipment acquired or lost, spells used, etc., though start barking out its truename (ToM) and it might be a little more compliant than normal y'know, I never thought about that, but that could lead to some pretty funny exchanges.. or even just situations. *mage summons hound archon* Mage: "Yeah I need you to help us kill these- ...why are you wearing a bedsheet?" Hound Archon*tapping foot*: "Outsiders have lives and plans too... infact some of us have girlfriends..." Mage: "oh, sh*t, dude I'm sorry... but umm... can you help us, we could really use another combatant..." Hound Archon: *sigh* alright, well I'm here for the next few minutes anyway... anyone got an extra sword?
Red_Rabbit 12-10-06, 12:26 AM	Summons do as the caster says. I made a post about what peoples "house rules" are afew days ago, because I was alittle interested how many people do "house rules". Just Ban Summons I'm sure there are afew people on these boards that ban'em already just let this post die already. Thx! The Rabbit
Nezkrul 12-10-06, 12:59 PM	but the summon spells are awesome!
Red_Rabbit 12-10-06, 03:17 PM	I totally agree summons are awsome. The Rabbit
TokTok 12-10-06, 04:38 PM	Around 4 pages of rants, blabbing and argueing, just because some prick with a pointy hat wants to summon a celestial to kill orphans. If you hate little kids that have lost their family and homes so much, why don't you just cast a Fireball at them and get it over with?
WinDReiN 12-10-06, 05:15 PM	Fiendish Codex I, page 11, states that summon monster spells temporarily draw fiends from the Abyss, and force them into service. So, summoned monsters seem to be original, and do what caster tells them. Although, I don't think any sane wizard would do this, because he would end up dead. Or, the archon would not bother himself, he knows it's not his fault. But certainly many celestials would turn their eyes on this, and kill the caster. Or simply have a glass of juice :)
Nezkrul 12-10-06, 05:35 PM	But certainly many celestials would turn their eyes on this, and kill the caster. if this were true why are there even evil beings ANYWHERE?
User5127 12-10-06, 09:11 PM	well, if it was true then a hgihly intelligent wizard who was evil wouldn't summon a hound archon. lol but, i'm in the boat with the archon killing those kids. mechanically its no different than a fireball yes. but its so much more... evil. lol
Izzak 12-10-06, 09:15 PM	It would work yes. That archon is looking for some blood afterwards. Best be ready
DracoPhoenix 12-11-06, 04:12 AM	The real evil act would be instructing the big humanoid doggie to babysit the orphans. :devil:
chucky 12-11-06, 10:31 AM	Think of it this way. A evil outsider makes a summon mortal spell. He summons your lawful good pali and orders his to slaughter some helpless good outsiders. He would have no choice of what he could do or not do. He would have to kill the good outsiders. Nowhere in the spell does it say that the summoned critter forgets what it just did though. Now if you summoned a high lvl demon and had it help you build a orphanage, and play "horsy" for the kids for weeks on end. You would get one very ****** off demon enemy for the rest of its life. Not your life, its life. Abusing intelligent summoned critters has consequences. Im suprised their are so many people here who are just now relizing this simple fact. Think of it this way. There are many evil casters. Most of the can summon good outsiders to do evil acts. So think to yourself why havent they been doing it? You dont have to explain things to players that should be common sense. If they do stupid things then they can die from doing those stupid things. Welcome to natural selection.
malykoth 12-11-06, 11:17 AM	The hound archon will attack as directed. Why? Because to say otherwise would create the following Wizard: Break down the door. Hound: Sorry, i have an aversion to doors Wizard: Carry that gold Hound: Nope, gold clashes with my fur color Wizard: Attack the fella under compulsion to kill me. Hound: Nope, its not his fault his attacking you. Result? The spell is worthless Don't be foolish...slaughtering orphans is a far cry from breaking down doors or carrying gold. If a DM starts doing what you say, then it is time to end the game, pick a new DM, or find another game to play in.
Psionx 12-11-06, 11:56 AM	It works and the archon kills them. End of story because there are much bigger fish to fry. If the dm really doesn't like you he can call an inevitable of some new sort. Personally, just let the town guards deal with it.
Millennium 12-11-06, 12:47 PM	A few problems here: 1) An Evil cleric cannot summon an archon. Any attempt to do so causes that casting to acquire the [Good] descriptor, and an Evil cleric can't cast such spells. Similar principles hold for a Good cleric trying to summon a pit fiend and make it plant trees and hug puppies. 2) The archon demands a payment for its services, and it can ask for "greater gifts" than the spell normally dictates. It would be totally within the DM's purview to make the archon ask for 6000 GP per orphan, which will be used to pay for true resurrections for the orphans an atonement for the archon. Since we're talking about a 'slaughter' here, the cost will almost certainly be higher than the caster is willing to pay. 3) Violating planar allies like this is going to **** off the powers of Good in a way that very few things can. Honestly, this might be one of the few times I'd be tempted to bust out the BoED and send an aleax after the caster. I'd do this for the caster with the puppy-hugging pit fiend as well.
malignor 12-11-06, 12:57 PM	- The manifestation of the Hound Archon will indeed slaughter the orphans as directed. - After the spell elapses, the true Archon (which acted as the template for the summoned manifestation) will appear back in his original plane within 24 hours. - If the original Archon remembers what his manifestation did, he will act to right the wrongs. The RAW is silent as to summonee's recollection of actions while summoned. Only DM fiat/houserules can dictate this (unless it's addressed in another book; it's not in the SRD) - If the Archon doesn't remember, the orphans become petitioners, and if any of the orphans are religious, some deities will be made aware of this (as per Divine rules). Should any of these deities be one whom the Archon serves, there will be retribution on the summoner. Likely the summoned Archon will be part of the group that brings the summoner to bloody justice. - If the archon does not remember what his manifestation's actions were, and none of the orphans pray to his deific benefactor, then the summoner just may get away with it. Again, the RAW is silent as to summonee's recollection of actions while summoned.
malignor 12-11-06, 01:15 PM	Don't be foolish...slaughtering orphans is a far cry from breaking down doors or carrying gold. If a DM starts doing what you say, then it is time to end the game, pick a new DM, or find another game to play in.Manic Man is absolutely correct, though. If the summoned being has free will, the DM can rule that the creature can deny anything. Claiming that one act is a "far cry" from another means nothing, because when what exact criteria do we use to declare an act as unacceptable? Alignment? Do you want to open up that can of worms? The "what is an evil/good/chaotic/lawful act" argument has never been truly resolved in over 30 years of D&D. The reason why is because our world is subjective, the D&D world is absolute, but that absolute world is at least partially shaped by our subjective views. Thus alignment is a very fuzzy thing and will always be so. What we have here is a slippery slope argument. Something that just can't be resolved in and of itself. It's better just to say "the summoned manifestation of the archon has free will" or "the summoned manifestation of the archon does not have free will". Manic Man is correct in saying that a summoned manifestation with free will can potentially be useless. It's a reasonable, logical and valid argument to suggest the "no free will" proposal. However, you are correct in saying that a DM who makes the Archon useless by exploiting its free will against you is a bad DM. However, this says nothing about the question of free will among summoned manifestations. It also doesn't negate Manic Man's argument. We can't always assume the DM is a good one. We can't always assume there's convenient access to another gaming group. The possibilities for a healthy/unhealthy gamer environment doesn't mean anything in regard to the logic of game mechanics.
Prak, the Mad 12-11-06, 01:49 PM	"ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES!" c'mon people! The wizard summons the archon, says 'kill those orphans.' the Archon says 'you're gonna pay, soon." and gets to work slicing and dicing. the archon winks out of the material plane, and upon returning to Celestia, gathers a few others, and goes looking for the next portal to the prime. Once upon the prime, the archon's buddies assume the form of wolves and the orphan slayer disguises himself as a mundane race so as to not arrouse suspicion or concern, and start asking around about the wizard, having clerics of their diety patron casting scry every so often so as to figure out what kingdom or plane the wizard is currently on or in. The hunt him down, and attack him, claiming retribution, if they lose, they return to Celestia, and it begins again. it's that simple!
bitnine 12-11-06, 02:25 PM	it's that simple!Do you have any idea how many innocents die because a whole squad of celestials decided to take vacation time to hunt down this random evil wizard? The forces of evil in D&D are powerful and legion. Celestials don't spend their time in the sauna looking for stuff to fill their day. Their existence is already filled with stopping creatures more horrible than this black-hearted wizard from doing things many times more horrible than anything he could possibly conceive of. If it were this easy to pull them off of their duties, you'd have every succubus available commanded to find a low-level wizard and pull the forces of good away from battles of many times the importance for days or weeks on end. If you are going to kick the player out of your game or punch him in the face, go ahead and do that. You don't need to bastardize your setting to show him that you disapprove of his actions. Or, if you are going to be that nonsensical, just yell out "TEH GOOD GOD MAKES YOUR HEAD ASLPODE!" and be done with it.
Nyat 12-11-06, 03:06 PM	If you want to enforce a penalty for such actions it should be more reasonable, the Hound Archon is busy with official Hound Archon stuff, so instead have him contact some devout mortals. Have the mortals attempt to take retribution on the evil wizard (I here that groups of mortals sometimes do such things as quest to kill evil wizards in Dungeons and Dragons)
DracoPhoenix 12-11-06, 06:12 PM	If you want to enforce a penalty for such actions it should be more reasonable, the Hound Archon is busy with official Hound Archon stuff, so instead have him contact some devout mortals. Have the mortals attempt to take retribution on the evil wizard (I here that groups of mortals sometimes do such things as quest to kill evil wizards in Dungeons and Dragons) And if the DM had any sense of humor, by coincidence, it turns out the party hired to take out a particularly nasty wizard, have in fact been hired to kill their own arcane bookworm. :)
User5127 12-11-06, 06:42 PM	A few problems here: 1) An Evil cleric cannot summon an archon. Any attempt to do so causes that casting to acquire the [Good] descriptor, and an Evil cleric can't cast such spells. Similar principles hold for a Good cleric trying to summon a pit fiend and make it plant trees and hug puppies. 2) The archon demands a payment for its services, and it can ask for "greater gifts" than the spell normally dictates. It would be totally within the DM's purview to make the archon ask for 6000 GP per orphan, which will be used to pay for true resurrections for the orphans an atonement for the archon. Since we're talking about a 'slaughter' here, the cost will almost certainly be higher than the caster is willing to pay. 3) Violating planar allies like this is going to **** off the powers of Good in a way that very few things can. Honestly, this might be one of the few times I'd be tempted to bust out the BoED and send an aleax after the caster. I'd do this for the caster with the puppy-hugging pit fiend as well. 1) It was about an evil "wizard", they can cast spells with the [good] descriptor. 2) its a summon not a calling, you don't owe the creature anything. its free. 3) You may not get pwn'ed by good outsiders immediatly, but if you do bad things enough the forces of good take notice. and it doesn't mean you have to kill orphans all day with archons. just doing evil alot is what will get you in trouble.
saidin0111 12-11-06, 07:03 PM	does anyone realize how many times a summons is directed to do something against what it would normally do, within any given campaign world, and how absurd it is for celestial/fiendish retribution to be delivered in every case, when there are more important things, like fighting the armies of evil/good, they could be doing, an act of perversion here and there is like a drop of rain in an ocean in the D&D cosmology, now, if the intent was to cause a populace to rebel against the forces of good and fall into the clutches of darkness, then yes, that would probably prompt some serious retribution, otherwise, outsiders have much more important matters to attend to when they aren't being summoned, even with calling, you really have to make yourself stand out, i.e. you don't pay up, to incur any mechanically outlined retribution, so why would a summons cause such a horrible retribution, though I do agree that frequent and repatative uses of summons in this manner might lead to maybe a few creatures of the type wronged making an attempt or two on the caster, but would not wage some prolonged campaign of retribution
bitnine 12-11-06, 07:16 PM	If you want to enforce a penalty for such actions it should be more reasonable, the Hound Archon is busy with official Hound Archon stuff, so instead have him contact some devout mortals.That's not a penalty, that's a consequence. There is a giant amount of difference between the two. On one hand you have the DM steamed about a players actions and deciding to make something up to punish them. On the other, you have the natural reaction to the actions of the player. The latter might even include the Hound Archon having a Trumpet Archon dispatch a sending with the wizard's description to a local good-aligned church such that they can notify the authorities or deal with it as they see fit.
sigea 12-11-06, 07:20 PM	Personally, I think chucky is dead on the money. And to all those who say celestials wouldn't care about one evil wizard forcing creatures of the heavens to do the most despicable acts known to man because their are bigger fish to fry, one question. Who is the multiverse is a bigger evil than the guy trying to destroy innocent and indefensable lives? Sure there may be huge armies of evil critters to battle, but if there is nothing left to battle for, what's the point. The fact that something is red\black has wings and is wreathed in flame does not make it more\less evil than the old guy in a pointed hat killing a race and destroying dreams (who knows one of those orphans could be the next hero to destroy evil.
Nyat 12-11-06, 07:37 PM	Who is the multiverse is a bigger evil than the guy trying to destroy innocent and indefensable lives? Sure there may be huge armies of evil critters to battle, but if there is nothing left to battle for, what's the point. The fact that something is red\black has wings and is wreathed in flame does not make it more\less evil than the old guy in a pointed hat killing a race and destroying dreams (who knows one of those orphans could be the next hero to destroy evil. Maybe the higher level evil guy genociding entire peoples or raising nations. Maybe the red/black winged thing wreathed in flames that would do far worse than a quick death to those orphans...and everyone within hundreds of miles if given the chance (because the forces of good are busy with the previously mentioned mortal wizard), and maybe this winged beings thousands of "friends" as well. Celestial beings have to attend to beings far more powerful doing far worse crimes. If this were not the case then adventurers wouldn't exist because there would be no more evils for them to beat down.
Nezkrul 12-11-06, 07:39 PM	Who is the multiverse is a bigger evil than the guy trying to destroy innocent and indefensable lives? Here's a list, but dont tell me if I leave any out: Vecna, Nerull, Dark Taia, Tiamat, Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Demogorgon, Jubilex, Pit Fiends, Balors, Shar, etc... One evil wizard on the prime isn't of any consequence to the atrocities done daily in the name of the listed outsiders. but if said evil wizard is doing it for them, he'll find himself on some celestial radar eventually.
User5127 12-11-06, 07:40 PM	yea, but if the hound archon comes after him what will the evil caster summon next. i know what i'd summon. a stronger celestial to kill the hound archon. and I wouldn't have to order this one to do it either. the hound archon would be my enemy. so if I summoned say an Astral Deva, it has no choice but to fight the Hound Archon. and thats inarguable raw there. so what would the astral deva do? come back and try to kill me for summoning it to kill the hound archon? ok, I'll summon a pit fiend and another astral deva. now good and evil fight side by side to destroy good. and so this spirals into a bunch of wasted time.
malignor 12-11-06, 08:04 PM	Here's what the summoner did. - Used a good spell for evil means. - Used a being (against his will) that embodies goodness and virtue to spread hate, pain, cruelty and death - Insulted the forces of good and smeared their reputation - Caused the death of helpless innocents Question: What would a Hound Archon do against a Pit Fiend? Answer: Suffer and/or die. Hound Archons are fodder against such a foe. Question: What would a Hound Archon do against an evil Summoner? Answer: Struggle and possibly be victorious. Just because there are bigger fish to fry, doesn't mean the good outsiders have to ignore the small stuff. The small stuff should be handles by the small guys, and the big stuff (like said Pit Fiends) are handled by the big stuff. Meet the evil with the appropriate amount of holy power to vanquish the evil. The wizard is obviously evil. The wizard is obviously a real, proven threat to beings on the power scale of Hound Archons, or greater, so he's AT LEAST as powerful as, say (lesse... Summon Monster V to call a H.Archon, so at least 9th level, so CR9, so...) a Vrock or a Bone Devil. Should the wizard go ignored by the forces of good, they are allowing (via inaction/apathy) innocents to suffer, good to be corrupted and the a noticably strong being of evil (who can also use the forces of good for evil means) to grow in power. If there was a Vrock or Bone Devil being sneaky evil and slaughtering orphans, would the forces of good planes not intervene if they were aware of it? The wizard is like one of them, but can go one better - corruption of the manifestations of good outsiders on a daily basis.
Prak, the Mad 12-11-06, 08:11 PM	no, see the thing is, game actions should have realistic consequences. The forces of Good are locked in a battle with the forces of evil, yes, but it's one that's been going on for millennia without a winner in sight, and AT LEAST three factions in it, and even WW2 soldiers weren't in battle ALL the time. I think a group of a few Hound Archons has the opportunity to hunt down a little Prime Material evil. also, A Hound Archon is on the SM5 list, hence, the caster is at least 9th level, quite possibly higher, and the Hound Archon is a CR 4 creature. Hence a group of three of them is an appropriate encounter for an 8th level party. It's no where near as major as bitnine makes it sound, a squad of four hound archons taking 'vacation' is not going to allow the forces of evil to get the upper hand, especially since so much of hell's forces is tied up presiding over sacrifices and participating in them. A 9th level or higher wizard that summons a hound archon to kill orphans is not a minor emergence of perversion, it's a serious attempt at corruption, especially since being forced to do something can have a VERY serious effect on one's psyche, if the wizard keeps summoning that hound archon to commit evil acts, said hound archon is going to question his nature, his will, his very self, even if is rational mind understands the nature of summoning magic, his irrational mind is questioning his virtue, it's asking 'Why was I not strong enough to resist?' 'Why was it so easy?' If the Wizard does this enough, he could well corrupt the Hound Archon to evil, his mounting doubt and fear and anger will eventually drive him to war atrocities, and then he is on an extremely slippery slope to evil, unless his Patron and comrades help him sort out what happened and bring the wizard to justice. hell, if you don't want to send a "WHOLE SQUAD(!!11!!oneonewtfhax!)" of hound archons at the party, have them run into a Fallen Hound Archon Blackguard as a archenemy. However, I think the squad of four Hound Archons hunting the character and his part down is simply a realistic consequence of an evil, corrupting action.
Nyat 12-11-06, 08:20 PM	A 9th level or higher wizard that summons a hound archon to kill orphans is not a minor emergence of perversion, it's a serious attempt at corruption, especially since being forced to do something can have a VERY serious effect on one's psyche, if the wizard keeps summoning that hound archon to commit evil acts, said hound archon is going to question his nature, his will, his very self, even if is rational mind understands the nature of summoning magic, his irrational mind is questioning his virtue, it's asking 'Why was I not strong enough to resist?' 'Why was it so easy?' If the Wizard does this enough, he could well corrupt the Hound Archon to evil, his mounting doubt and fear and anger will eventually drive him to war atrocities, and then he is on an extremely slippery slope to evil, unless his Patron and comrades help him sort out what happened and bring the wizard to justice. I would just like to point out that you are attempting to use human psyche as a basis for an immortal being of pure good that could very well have a psyche unlike humans.
Prak, the Mad 12-11-06, 08:30 PM	yes, well until an Archangel descends from the clouds and lets me into it's mind, it's all I really have to go with. Not only that, but there are precedents set for outsiders switching sides in D&D, and thus it's somewhat reasonable to assume human'like psyches and motives.
archcomponent 12-11-06, 08:41 PM	Sounds like the forces of good in some of your games should make your players pretty irrelevent, if you were consistent about this.
Prak, the Mad 12-11-06, 08:49 PM	ah but not all evil mages are screwing with the Forces of Good(TM), this one is, and doing so brings with it a whole host of effects, the loss of faith in good, the corruption of a celestial, etc. Besides, every game stretches belief in the 'Why are we neccesary' question.... If Elminster and Co are skipping around the realms, why are PC's needed, for example?
malignor 12-11-06, 10:07 PM	Precisely. To write off the PCs as unworthy, just because they aren't epic planetslayers is ludicrous. Why do the Gods even bother granting power to Clerics, then? Before being a Cleric, Fred was a level 0 dirt farmer. Why would Pelor imbue Fred the dirt farmer with holy power, just because he prays alot and learns skills from other guys who pray alot? Humans are significant. In hell, a mortal soul is 30gp. A petitioner can become an outsider. Mortals are like the currency of the immortals/divine. Furthermore, this spellcasting mortal has proven he can kidnap, command and control immortal beings. If someone were to kidnap your soldiers and use them against their will to kill children, what rank would you have to be above those soldiers to not care? Captain? General? President (deity)?
Nyat 12-11-06, 10:15 PM	Precisely. To write off the PCs as unworthy, just because they aren't epic planetslayers is ludicrous. Why do the Gods even bother granting power to Clerics, then? Before being a Cleric, Fred was a level 0 dirt farmer. Why would Pelor imbue Fred the dirt farmer with holy power, just because he prays alot and learns skills from other guys who pray alot? Pelor imbued Fred so that he and his friends could deal with the evil wizard and Pelor wouldn't have to send a heavenly host after the bastard.
Ramble 12-11-06, 10:44 PM	Who is the multiverse is a bigger evil than the guy trying to destroy innocent and indefensable lives? Minor point but doesn't the RAW already answer this question in the D&D multiverse with Detect Evil spell? After all the 9th level wizard or sorcerer caster of MS-V is only Faintly evil, while any undead, outsider, cleric, or even intelligent item of similar power is a Strong force of evil (or other alignment as appropriate). On the issue of control, the description of the summoning spell Summon Swarm does include the specific statement of 'The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.' The lack of similar under summon monster and summon ally spells would imply they are under the casters control and not pure free will for the duration. And finally a side issue on control by giving it directions, all Celestial and Fiendish creatures, including normally unintelligent vermin, are granted Int 3 by the template, but does this give the creature the Celestial or Fiendish language (as appropriate)? Ramble.
malignor 12-11-06, 11:17 PM	Pelor imbued Fred so that he and his friends could deal with the evil wizard and Pelor wouldn't have to send a heavenly host after the bastard.But of course, there are no Heavenly host to send, since they're out killing Pelor's own priests, thanks to (lowly) evil arcanists who summon them. ;)
Nyat 12-11-06, 11:27 PM	But of course, there are no Heavenly host to send, since they're out killing Pelor's own priests, thanks to (lowly) evil arcanists who summon them. ;) I recently joined an evil and not very serious campaign, I need to remember that one. Its even more ironic because our group worships Pelor's beard...don't ask (did I mention its not an entirely serious campaign?)
archcomponent 12-11-06, 11:39 PM	If Elminster and Co are skipping around the realms, why are PC's needed, for example? Good point. I suppose such a wizard has proven that he is able to bind the celestial host to his will and then use them to slaughter the innocent. Such a brazen act made by a 9th level wizard, a power to make the planes take notice, should end in his swift dispatch in the hands of those he would profane. That is the fate of such a vile creature. Although I still think it would be of interest for the other players to be contacted to slay the fiend.
Prak, the Mad 12-11-06, 11:52 PM	I didn't say he should be swiftly dispatched, just that the Forces of Good(TM) should try. If he's able to fight them off, good on him.
Arem_K 12-12-06, 12:18 AM	If you are going to have summoned creatures come back for revenge, no one will ever cast summon spells. Lets ignore the whole orphans thing for a bit. Let's say the wizard uses the spell for the purpose it was intended, fighting bad guys. The wizard summons a hound archon to fight a hydra or something. That means that hound has been ripped across the plains and then forced to go into melee combat with some horrible monster. Probably because the wizard does not want to risk his own butt. Odds are, the summoned creature ends up fighting something that it has not chance of victory against, and it suffers grevious bodily harm to be the party's meat shield. If anything is going to motivate it to hunt the party down and take its revenge, that is going to be it. If summons come back for blood, no one will ever summon.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 12:56 AM	well, first of all, we're not talking about summoned creatures coming back for revenge, we're talking about an Evil caster summoning a celestial to kill orphans, the celestial HAS to kill the orphans, that's how the spell works, the celestial returns to celestia, remembering how a wizard who is starting to be a big player in the world kidnapped and controlled him and forced him to commit EVIL, the celestial grabs a few of his buddies(enough to be a threat, ie, proper EL) and mounts up to but a stop to this Vile monster before he causes more harm to the Forces of Good(TM). second of all, a Hound Archon could fair rather well against a Five headed hydra... and you didn't specify what kind, but the weakest hydra is CR 4, so... 1 in 16 chance of the Archon winning against a non-specific hydra...
archcomponent 12-12-06, 01:28 AM	the celestial grabs a few of his buddies(enough to be a threat, ie, proper EL) and mounts up to but a stop to this Vile monster before he causes more harm to the Forces of Good(TM) Why would the celestial host care about providing a 'proper EL' for this butchering bastard?
Arem_K 12-12-06, 01:31 AM	well, first of all, we're not talking about summoned creatures coming back for revenge, we're talking about an Evil caster summoning a celestial to kill orphans, the celestial HAS to kill the orphans, that's how the spell works, the celestial returns to celestia, remembering how a wizard who is starting to be a big player in the world kidnapped and controlled him and forced him to commit EVIL, the celestial grabs a few of his buddies(enough to be a threat, ie, proper EL) and mounts up to but a stop to this Vile monster before he causes more harm to the Forces of Good(TM). second of all, a Hound Archon could fair rather well against a Five headed hydra... and you didn't specify what kind, but the weakest hydra is CR 4, so... 1 in 16 chance of the Archon winning against a non-specific hydra... First of all, several people were talking about having the summon come back for revenge. The hydra was just something I threw out randomly. Whether or not an hound archon can beat one is irrelevant. The point is that summons many times get called in for crappy jobs, like getting bit a bunch of times, and it would be bad if they had the ability to retaliate everytime you did something mean to them.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 01:39 AM	Why would the celestial host care about providing a 'proper EL' for this butchering bastard? it probably wouldn't, the DM, on the other hand, should. First of all, several people were talking about having the summon come back for revenge. I was talking more about realistic consequences for in game actions to provide a sense of versimilitude and 'realism'.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-12-06, 01:54 AM	Well, the first thing you really have to think about is "how the hell does a hound archon find a single wizard in all of the prime material plane?"... Unless you walk around with a little lapel sign that says "Hi, my name is Bob the Archmage!", that's going to be a pretty big chore, given that most planar beings can't cast high-level divinations. Sure, if you call up a Solar for evil purposes, you're pretty much proclaiming to the universe you're confident enough to kill it anyways, but anything lesser than that is going to have a very hard time actually getting back to you to deal with you. So, what the scenario is really going to be is this. - Hound Archon gets called up and ordered to perform some atrocity by a vile arcane caster. - Hound Archon does the foul deed and is sent back home. - Hound Archon is then faced with the dilemma of trying to find out who the heck called him up and where he is, and how to get there. And this is the point where Fluffy hits a bit of a brick wall, because he can't really cut it on that end of things. So he's going to need to go up the food chain to find a single arcane caster somewhere on a mortal world. If Fluffy works for a god, the god might be able to find out (depending on the god, Fluffy being dognapped might or might not fall under portfolio sensing). Otherwise, he's got to look to bigger angels or the Seven or something. That's a lot of time and effort being spent finding a rotten needle in a haystack. Given enough summons (or better yet, a calling), though, and Fluffy might pick up enough clues to narrow it down. And that's why evil casters can use good outsiders for evil purposes without having the 243rd Solar Shock Trooper Batallion nail their asses into the ground. Unless they forget to take off the convention badge, in which case it's pin the holy nuke on the donkey time.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 02:23 AM	except that the Hound Archon can certainly LOOK AT the wizard, and can go to a cleric of his patron and ask for assitance by way of scrying. The Forces of Good(TM) aren't going to send solars at him, at least not if he was my player... but then again, if he was my player, I'd have let him do it, and roleplayed the event, and I would have approved of it, because I find the idea fracking hilarious, and it would have been a source of periodic opposition for the party, until they must question the caster's worth. 'Does our Vile Wizard provide enough to the group to outweigh the periodic battles with celestials?'
redraven 12-12-06, 02:29 AM	At a certain point, the revenge scenario becomes incredibly convoluted. At the point in which a squad of Celestials is dispatched to kill one of the infinite number of evil wizards that populate the multiverse is just such a time. As a DM, one should either (A) not allow evil wizards to summon [Good] creatures, or (B) not allow evil wizards. Indeed, I am still mystified as to why the DM was surprised that the wizard killed the orphans considering the wizard was presumably evil to begin with. If the wizard wasn't evil to begin with, well, an alignment change to evil is its own penalty. Suddenly getting healing at the local temple, walking into bars with overzealous paladins, and all manners of mundane things suddenly become dangerous. None of which need involve a tactical, celestial strike force headed by the wronged Hound Archons. If the goal is to increase campaign verisimilitude, sending strike squads over one summoning spell is not the way to do it. Even multiple summonings should not qualify given the atrocities committed on a planar scale every day of the week. If Bob the Evil Summoner only committed evil by using a celestial summon spell, maybe that could grab some attention, or any evil character generally above 15th level.
malignor 12-12-06, 03:15 AM	First of all, several people were talking about having the summon come back for revenge. The hydra was just something I threw out randomly. Whether or not an hound archon can beat one is irrelevant. The point is that summons many times get called in for crappy jobs, like getting bit a bunch of times, and it would be bad if they had the ability to retaliate everytime you did something mean to them.If you read up on summons, the summoned being "pops" back into existence 24 hours after the summoning spell ends or the creature "dies". Thus the danger/death is not even a factor for summoned beings. If you were summoned, It's like losing a day for a chance to battle to the death with no physical consequences to yourself. The lost day may mean something, if you had a mortal lifespan (which outsiders don't). A celestial being summoned to fight alongside heroes is just fine & dandy. Gods give that privilege to clerics, so I can't see good summoning good to do good deeds as being an issue. Similarly, even an evil guy summoning evil to give a chance to inflict pain and death with no strings attached ("You mean I get to eat the pregnant woman alive? Really?!? What's the catch?") is unlikely to lead to repercussions. It's when you start mis-using your summons you get into these situations of retribution/revenge. The more degrading the abuse, the more likely it will come back and bite you. It provides a nice distraction now and then.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 04:14 AM	I hate people like you as dms... some people just like playing evil! Not to mention, evil does not always kill orphans. for no cause, anyway.... and Bob the Summoner did not just commit evil, he commited a Vile act. lets go through the check list of evil acts(as there's nothing detailing the distinction between evil and vile) -Lying, check. He lied to the forces of good when he set out to summon a Hound Archon for the specific purpose of slaughtering orphans. -Cheating, negotiable, he technically cheats by having someone else commit his evil -Theft, check. he stole Goodness to commit evil -Betrayal, no. -Murder, CHECK. he slaughtered orphans for perverse pleasure. -Vengeance, no. -Worshipping Evil, not enough information, but prolly no. -Creating undead, no, not in this specific case, but prolly has before. -Casting evil spells, no, but casting a good spell for evil purposes can't be that great either. -Damning or Harming souls, sorta, by forcing an outsider to act against it's alignment. -Consorting with fiends, not at the moment. -Creating evil creatures, possibly, he could cause the hound archon to fall, or he may cause a surviving orphan to turn to evil -Using others for personal gain, check, he is using the hound archon to commit evil acts. -Greed, questionable. -Bullying and Cowing innocents, check. -Bringing Despair, most likely. -Tempting others, arguable. 7 to 11/17, not bad for a single act. Let me put it this way. Are celestials good or exalted? they're generally considered exalted, right? Well, what do exalted characters and creatures exist to do? Slay/balance vile? I would say so. Is the wizard Vile? I would say so, he is corrupting goodness, bringing despair, kidnapping celestials, violating them by forcing them to violate their alignment, etc. Thus, the celestials exist to slay/balance against the wizard. and it's not a strike squad, it's an adventuring party of characters with a vested interest in dealing with the wizard.
malignor 12-12-06, 12:28 PM	I hate people like you as dms... some people just like playing evil! Not to mention, evil does not always kill orphans. for no cause, anyway....I'm guessing you don't mean me, like the positioning of the replies
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 12:30 PM	no, I meant redraven
Kyuketsukiouji 12-12-06, 12:40 PM	At a certain point, the revenge scenario becomes incredibly convoluted. At the point in which a squad of Celestials is dispatched to kill one of the infinite number of evil wizards that populate the multiverse is just such a time. As a DM, one should either (A) not allow evil wizards to summon [Good] creatures, or (B) not allow evil wizards. Or C) Having decided that you'll allow evil PCs in your campaign originally, you let the player do what his character wants, and tally up his atrocities until you have a reasonable justification to send Good enemies at them specifically. I mean, really, playing Evil PCs can be lots of fun, but some DMs who originally allow you to play Evil characters seem to just be itching for an excuse to drop a bunch of outsiders on your ass to nuke you. Let the guy be evil, give him a bit of slack, and when he's played out enough rope to hang himself with, that's when you send in the CR-appropriate encounters at him. Unless he's a playing a total dimwit, in which case, you're quite free to waste him.
malignor 12-12-06, 01:08 PM	Or C) Having decided that you'll allow evil PCs in your campaign originally, you let the player do what his character wants, and tally up his atrocities until you have a reasonable justification to send Good enemies at them specifically. I mean, really, playing Evil PCs can be lots of fun, but some DMs who originally allow you to play Evil characters seem to just be itching for an excuse to drop a bunch of outsiders on your ass to nuke you. Let the guy be evil, give him a bit of slack, and when he's played out enough rope to hang himself with, that's when you send in the CR-appropriate encounters at him. Unless he's a playing a total dimwit, in which case, you're quite free to waste him.The only time I would throw Good outsiders at PCs as a reaction to something is if they mess with Good Outsiders. When it comes to the Hound Archon problem, it's best to "let sleeping dogs lie", or they'll come after you. If Bob the evil summoner didn't summon up the Hound Archons, the Hound Archons wouldn't be after him. I read your post about how the Hound Archon would have a hell of a time trying to find the guy who summoned him. It's true that the Archon's abilities don't allow it to find the mage, but all it has to do is somehow get to the Prime Material plane ("Pleeeeze mister Trumpet Archon, Plane Shift me to the prime. I'll let you rub my belly!") and then Greater Teleport to the place where it was summoned. From there, investigate, track down the summoner, possibly enlist the aid of some LG locals who the Archon can convince (though alot of people would probably help a divine being of good, trying to mete out justice for such a vile act). The Archon would probably meet up with some adventuring group, get caught up in some zany adventures and eventually run into the PCs. Voila, instant battle. And when the Archon gets killed, his friends get involved and it escalates. Next thing you know, the party is facing holy rollers out of the woodwork, the occasional archon, and so forth.
Nezkrul 12-12-06, 05:59 PM	Hound Archons stand around smoking weed on their homeplane all day long because they have absolutely nothing to do and no one to talk to, except smoke and wait to be summoned. Then after they get summoned, since they have nothing to do, and are completely bat poop bored, they decide they want revenge on the guy who summoned them, and voila! They hunt him down like the dog that he/they is/are. COME ONNNNN!! Seriously guys. If they evil guy summons a good creature (on purpose) to commit his evil acts for him (on purpose, and RAW) DOES NOT mean he should be punished. Come to think of it, wouldn't he end up on some demon or devil radar for such an awesome use of good to do evil? Oh look, that hound archon i used like a dog is back for some revenge. Hey, mr Horned Devil, can I get some back up? ... say a chain devil for a few rounds? I promise to summon that guy again, once he runs for his life, to kill more babies :big smile: Or, how about no retribution/revenge schemes. That's so much more simple, and less DM vs Player ism.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 06:06 PM	It's not about DM vrs. Player, not the way I'm looking at it anyway... Evil wizard summons a hound archon to kill orphans, hound archon does it, and starts hunting a soon-to-be quite potent vile character. Granted, the Forces of Evil(TM) would also be interested, and would probably back him in a fight should he need it. However, he wouldn't need it, at least not at first, because his level is twice that of the Archon's CR.
Nezkrul 12-12-06, 06:11 PM	again, instead of posting beyond... hound archon does it and then goes on a revenge campaign... stop and think about what I posted please. Intelligent outsiders have their own agenda's, superiors, and even their own lives. Planeshifting to the Prime to hunt down one little dirty needle in a huge stack of dirty needles is not only dumb, but very risky, because a hound archon that planeshifts to the Prime is physically here which means he can be killed (no reforming 24 hours later, DEAD)
xanadu 12-12-06, 06:35 PM	Oh look, that hound archon i used like a dog is back for some revenge. Hey, mr Horned Devil, can I get some back up? ... say a chain devil for a few rounds? I promise to summon that guy again, once he runs for his life, to kill more babies :big smile: :rofl:
redraven 12-12-06, 06:48 PM	I hate people like you as dms... some people just like playing evil! Not to mention, evil does not always kill orphans. for no cause, anyway.... Since it has been indicated you were referencing me in this post, let me make something clear: my comments were directed towards DMs who feel compelled to make celestial strike forces based upon the use of summon spells. I have had several enjoyable evil campaigns, and generally try to stay morally ambiguous with my campaigns in any case. In my experience, Evil tends to regulate itself - evil PCs typically become radically paranoid, the general population tends to not grant as many favors, and interactions with most important/story NPCs tend to start off worse than they would have been otherwise (even if said important/story NPC is evil to begin with). The point I was trying to get across was that DMs who view it necessary to warp the structure of the multiverse (and stretch in-game logic too) in order to punish PCs via, literally, deus ex machina, they may as well not allow evil wizards to summon good beings or allow evil wizards to begin with. Unless the DM is running an evil campaign to begin with, choosing to follow the celestial strike-force scenario will simply usurp the actual focus of the game, similar to the effects of giving the party a Deck of Many Things. Was killing the orphans a central event to the campaign, or was it just the wizard having some fun in the game world and seeing how everyone else reacted? More importantly, does the DM want the orphan killing to be a central event of the campaign, regardless of what else the DM has prepared for the characters and players? Actions have consequences, sure. But actions should have reasonable consequences in the context of D&D. And thus far, it has yet to be demonstrated that this wizards singular act of senseless mayhem deserves a heavenly host response. and Bob the Summoner did not just commit evil, he commited a Vile act. lets go through the check list of evil acts(as there's nothing detailing the distinction between evil and vile) -Lying, check. He lied to the forces of good when he set out to summon a Hound Archon for the specific purpose of slaughtering orphans. I do not see how this fits. The wizard ordered the hound archon quite clearly to do evil. It was not as if the wizard asked the hound archon to do something that would indirectly lead the death of orphans. Further, there is no reason to believe that an arcane mage has any compunction to use spells in a certain fashion (clerics, maybe, wizards, no). -Theft, check. he stole Goodness to commit evil This is also a stretch. Goodness was utilized, but the same archon returns whence it came to continue goodness wherever it was before. If you are talking some form of opportunity cost, then it becomes reasonable to apply this logic to good clerics that cast summon spells frivolously. The rest of your points are probably fine as-is.
archcomponent 12-12-06, 07:31 PM	Planeshifting to the Prime to hunt down one little dirty needle in a huge stack of dirty needles is not only dumb, Little? We are talking about a vile 9th level spellcaster who has the means and will to steal goodness and use it to to slaughter the innocent! Such a horrid person and flagrant act will bring the attention and wrath of planar forces. At first, a hound archon or two with a trumpet archon so they can get back when done. But slay them and more will come, and this fiendish character will be made to answer for his deeds.
Nezkrul 12-12-06, 08:46 PM	mmk arch, w/e. I hope I never play in a game you run.
User5127 12-12-06, 08:52 PM	all I can say is.. bring it. seriously. if I was a 9th level mage... i'd nuke a hound archon. by sommuning another one to fight it! lol oo the irony again! haha but seriously. by the time the find you you've probably leveled a bit. as well. what if he wasn't 9th level? i'm serious. say I was level 30+ and I used the sommon spell to kill orphans. I know the hound archon can find me pretty damn easily (I am a pretty big mover and shaker in the world), but still I'm level freaking 30. i'd smoke that hound archon so bad. lol or summon a solar to take care of it for me. and since good old mr hound archon came to the prime, when he dies. he goes bye bye. :evillaugh:
sigea 12-12-06, 09:10 PM	So let me get this straight. It is not worth going after one man (or mortal). Let me think this through........ Hitler, one man Sadam Husain, one man George Bush, one man Jesus, one man Budda, one man Aristotle, one man Alexanda, one man Julius Ceasur, one man So the actions of one man makes no difference to the universe at all? Interesting.
Prak, the Mad 12-12-06, 10:20 PM	Intelligent outsiders have their own agenda's, superiors, and even their own lives. Planeshifting to the Prime to hunt down one little dirty needle in a huge stack of dirty needles is not only dumb, but very risky, because a hound archon that planeshifts to the Prime is physically here which means he can be killed (no reforming 24 hours later, DEAD) and read what I say. Yes, intelligent good outsiders have their own agendas, and their own lives. these are going to be centered around promoting good and defeating evil. Your telling me a Hound Archon isn't going to make it part of his own agenda, in his own life, to bring justice to the vile caster? This is not only a dirty needle in a stack of dirty needles, this is more like a needle of AIDS tainted blood in a stack of, say, the flu, with maybe a few other AIDS needles scattered around... this is a VILE caster who has proven his possession of the depravity, willingness and wherewithal to summon the forces of good to commit evil acts. You're telling me the hound archon, an, as you pointed out, Intelligent creature, with it's OWN AGENDA, is not going to take this co-opting of his strength and virtue to kill babies personal and want justice/revenge?! *stuff* well, now that you explain your position, I retract my statement. I apologize, but face value is about all one has to go on here... I do not see how this fits. The wizard ordered the hound archon quite clearly to do evil. It was not as if the wizard asked the hound archon to do something that would indirectly lead the death of orphans. Further, there is no reason to believe that an arcane mage has any compunction to use spells in a certain fashion (clerics, maybe, wizards, no). A celestial being summoned probably generally expects to be summoned for something good, or at worst neutral, and thus the Forces of Good(TM) are allowing this hound archon to be summoned that he may do some good. The wizard, with his ulterior motive, has thus lied to the FoG. This is also a stretch. Goodness was utilized, but the same archon returns whence it came to continue goodness wherever it was before. If you are talking some form of opportunity cost, then it becomes reasonable to apply this logic to good clerics that cast summon spells frivolously. actually I would apply this logic to clerics that use summons frivolously, because as much as I think celestials might be able to take some time out of the war to deal with other things that don't exactly matter towards the war, summoning them too much, for things like getting you a beer, or killing the kobolds because you don't want to exert yourself, is probably going to **** them off. on the other hand, the old high-priest who needs some help around a quiet rural temple, and is too frail to do it himself that humbly prays for a hound archon's aid, 'when possible'(emphasis there), should get some help, as helping those in need is as good, if not more so, as driving a longsword between a balor's eyes. Little? We are talking about a vile 9th level spellcaster who has the means and will to steal goodness and use it to to slaughter the innocent! Such a horrid person and flagrant act will bring the attention and wrath of planar forces. At first, a hound archon or two with a trumpet archon so they can get back when done. But slay them and more will come, and this fiendish character will be made to answer for his deeds. I don't know if I'd go quite this far... If this wizard did this in my game, I'd take the minor plothook it provided and run with it, if the pcs are getting tired of their current task and need a diversion, celestial squad has just caught up with them again. However, if the wizard proved himself powerful enough, the squads may stop, the FoG(TM) aren't, as much as I like to pretend otherwise, stupid... all I can say is.. bring it. seriously. if I was a 9th level mage... i'd nuke a hound archon. by sommuning another one to fight it! lol oo the irony again! haha but seriously. by the time the find you you've probably leveled a bit. as well. what if he wasn't 9th level? i'm serious. say I was level 30+ and I used the sommon spell to kill orphans. I know the hound archon can find me pretty damn easily (I am a pretty big mover and shaker in the world), but still I'm level freaking 30. i'd smoke that hound archon so bad. lol or summon a solar to take care of it for me. and since good old mr hound archon came to the prime, when he dies. he goes bye bye. yeah, that's the other part... Hitler, one man Sadam Husain, one man George Bush, one man Jesus, one man Budda, one man Aristotle, one man Alexanda, one man Julius Ceasur, one man :clap:
malignor 12-12-06, 10:51 PM	Hound Archons stand around smoking weed on their homeplane all day long because they have absolutely nothing to do and no one to talk to, except smoke and wait to be summoned. Then after they get summoned, since they have nothing to do, and are completely bat poop bored, they decide they want revenge on the guy who summoned them, and voila! They hunt him down like the dog that he/they is/are. COME ONNNNN!!Okay, roleplay time. Suppose I kidnap you, force you to perform what (to you) is among the ultimate, most disgusting and horrifying sort of act, and make you lose a day of work (summoned beings return 24 hours later)? What would you do? Shrug and go on like nothing happened? You probably got in trouble for losing a day of work, possibly your absence resulted in a failed task which may have been important, and you'd be traumatized for doing what for you is unimaginibly repulsive and unforgivable. You'd do nothing? Think, if you were a living embodiment of goodness (like a Good outsider), slaughtering orphans is pure evil, and thus the ultimate example of repulsive and horrifying acts. What's your worst fear, the most vile and disgusting sort of thing you can possibly imagine? Think tubgirl or lemon party. Imagine I make you do it, openly, after kidnapping you for a day and disrupting your life, all for my own petty pleasure. Think like a roleplayer... what would you do? Furthermore, have I not already proven by my actions that I'm a remarkable being of the very thing you exist to fight against? Hound Archons have friends and even total strangers (good mortals) they can turn to for help, and they can use their own powers (scent, greater teleport, high survival skill, track feat, memory of their location when summoned) to start tracking down the summoner within 24 hours, once they get to the Prime. They have the skills, the power and the allies to go back and find the summoner, quickly. This ain't no "needle in a haystack". The Archon succesfully finding the summoner again is a very likely, very plausible outcome.Oh look, that hound archon i used like a dog is back for some revenge. Hey, mr Horned Devil, can I get some back up? ... say a chain devil for a few rounds? I promise to summon that guy again, once he runs for his life, to kill more babies :big smile:You claim good outsiders have lives so important they can't hunt down and fight against known and threatening evil forces who have proven their treachery. Yet supposedly devils sit there all day and scry on random mortals, looking for someone to back up. Consistency please.Or, how about no retribution/revenge schemes. That's so much more simple, and less DM vs Player ism.It's not DM vs. player. DM vs. player is a metagame conflict. An NPC reacting in a plausable fashion to PC behaviour is completely in-game, reasonable and fits the bill of standard cause and effect. If I beat up Fred and set fire to his house, you can be sure Fred's friends and family are going to do something about it if they can. The hand of fate (the DM) did not possess Fred's buddies to hunt me down because fate got all mad at me for what I did. Fred's buddies have a real reason to go after me: I beat up their buddy and burned his house down. So I kidnap someone and force them to perform horrid atrocities that are ten times more vile to them because it goes against their very nature of being, on a cosmic level. You argue there's no consequences? If so, you're the bad DM. All your NPCs are robots devoid of emotion who ignore PCs who have proven to be threats and proven to be more powerful than the NPCs... just because there exist more people than the PCs themselves. The PCs can slaughter children and their own mother will ignore it and go do her daily chores because there are "more important things to do". Kidnap a Seargant of an army, torture him for a full day, try to drive him insane and let him go, just for fun... but the Seargent has a squad to look after and duties to perform, so he doesn't bother doing anything about it, never mind that becase he was kidnapped, his squad didn't take out the enemy supply line, his side lost a major battle and when he gets back he'll be courtmartialled and executed. But since the PCs did it, he goes on like nothing happened.
Nyat 12-12-06, 10:59 PM	So let me get this straight. It is not worth going after one man (or mortal). Let me think this through........ Hitler, one man Sadam Husain, one man George Bush, one man Jesus, one man Budda, one man Aristotle, one man Alexanda, one man Julius Ceasur, one man So the actions of one man makes no difference to the universe at all? Interesting. So is this 9th level wizard a major political/religious/philosophical leader with world spanning influence now? He was saying that there are far worse threats than a lvl 9 wizard that have priority, not that mortals can't become a big enough threat to get celestial attention. The lvl 30 evil wizard could very well deserve a (dozen) celestial strike force(s).
sigea 12-12-06, 11:22 PM	Nyat, so your saying that people of influence just come out of the cosmos and suddenly appear in their position. For crying out loud, you prove my point, these are all people who are only one person, one person who for the first 20 odd years of their life they were nobody, but left to their own devices, changed the world. Could you imagine what may NOT have happened if Hitler was stopped the first time he committed\proposed to commit any of the horrible things he was the cause of. Why are you people so blind to believe your either a big ugly demon, or not worth the effort? Cyric (Forgotten Realms) was a mortal rogue once, same with Bhall, Bane and Myrkul. Shame on the forces of good for NOT acting on mortal actions earlier and saving themselves a lot of pain in the future.
Nyat 12-12-06, 11:41 PM	Nyat, so your saying that people of influence just come out of the cosmos and suddenly appear in their position. For crying out loud, you prove my point, these are all people who are only one person, one person who for the first 20 odd years of their life they were nobody, but left to their own devices, changed the world. Could you imagine what may NOT have happened if Hitler was stopped the first time he committed\proposed to commit any of the horrible things he was the cause of. Why are you people so blind to believe your either a big ugly demon, or not worth the effort? Cyric (Forgotten Realms) was a mortal rogue once, same with Bhall, Bane and Myrkul. Shame on the forces of good for NOT acting on mortal actions earlier and saving themselves a lot of pain in the future. Is there any reason to believe this 9th lvl wizard will become any of these things? Or should the celestials go on a world wide rampage to kill everyone who detects as evil? They could become gods are dictators with great influence, sure they have no proof, but neither do they have proof about the 9th lvl wizard. Once again, I think it would be far better for the celestials to contact mortals to deal with the wizard. And a question, how many world threats in DnD are solved by armies of celestials as opposed to mortal adventurers?
sigea 12-12-06, 11:54 PM	Nyat, in response to your question "And a question, how many world threats in DnD are solved by armies of celestials as opposed to mortal adventurers?" How long is a piece of string? And who's game world are we talking about? I think the focus of this argument is not WHO will commit the task of taking down the evil mage, but more to the point that the summoned hound archon, in some DM's game worlds WILL seek retribution for such acts, be it himself, with a pack of hound archon mates, by calling in a favour from the gods themselves or by contracting\asking mortals do erradicate the evil scourge from the land. What starting all this remember was someone saying that by RAW the mage can force said archon to commit such acts and then others saying it is not "fair" to have said archon seek retribution.
malignor 12-13-06, 11:22 AM	Is there any reason to believe this 9th lvl wizard will become any of these things? Or should the celestials go on a world wide rampage to kill everyone who detects as evil? They could become gods are dictators with great influence, sure they have no proof, but neither do they have proof about the 9th lvl wizard. Once again, I think it would be far better for the celestials to contact mortals to deal with the wizard. And a question, how many world threats in DnD are solved by armies of celestials as opposed to mortal adventurers?The 9th+ level wizard is enough of a threat (he can interfere with the forces of good directly - he has proven both the ability and the will to do it) to warrant some intervention. Not armies, heck no more than that summoned Hound Archon (who goes home and grabs his "no coins, double goods, standard items" to use on his mission; buy a +1 greatsword and +1 studded leather armor) and maybe a friend or two; 1-3 Hound Archons should suffice. then the 1-3 (now equipped) Hound Archons arrange for a visit to the prime, likely track down the Wizard with their abilities, and either try heir hand at defeating him or realize they may be in a bit over their head (if the Wizard was part of a dangerous and skilled party). Then they'd likely get assistance from local goodguys who see the Hound Archons as the agents of justice that they are, form a party of goodguys to challenge the badguy PCs (appropriate CR), and do what they can do. If the Hound Archons are defeated, the wizard has obviously proven himself a greater threat than they thought. Was it a close call? Time to send in a Trumpet Archon. Was it a slaughter? Send in a squad of 4 Lanterns and 2 Hounds, led by a Trumpet (form an appropriate CR encounter). And so on. It's an ongoing set of encounters, aka an adventure plot. This aint a "you bad guy exploit rules. me childish DM smash you for being silly". This is a "hooboy! You just opened Pandora's box, there. When you attract attention from the heavens, the heaven react accordingly. What a great chance to roll up a cool arch-enemy. This is such a wicked adventure/campaign idea you just thrust upon yourself, thanks to your bad judgement!"
archcomponent 12-13-06, 12:42 PM	then the 1-3 (now equipped) Hound Archons arrange for a visit to the prime, likely track down the Wizard with their abilities, and either try heir hand at defeating him or realize they may be in a bit over their head (if the Wizard was part of a dangerous and skilled party). Then they'd likely get assistance from local goodguys who see the Hound Archons as the agents of justice that they are, form a party of goodguys to challenge the badguy PCs (appropriate CR), and do what they can do. Hell yes. I really do not care that, by the rules, the hound archons do not advance 'by character class' and therefore do not purchase or possess gear - this vile and mighty threat to the forces of good has spit in their faces, and they will do their best to bring him down. If it takes a few hound archons, their allies, another party, or a whole squadron, they will fight and sacrifice unceasingly because that is what it means to be exalted. When one falls, two more will join to take its place. These creatures, paragons of good, will not suffer the existance of a such a terrible and vile threat to the innocent who has the audacity to try to steal goodness and make it work towards his ends. Their very existance is based upon the eradication of such evils from the world, and to suggest that they would tolerate or ignore such a great and terrible spellcaster is nonsensical.
FeceMan 12-13-06, 01:29 PM	Guys. The summon has its own free will. The hound archon will NOT kill orphans unless these orphans happen to be incredibly dangerous, blood-lusting orphans. EDIT: Archcomponent, I think I remember reading the thread from where you got your sig...do you, by any chance, know the name of it?
Azarias 12-13-06, 03:10 PM	Feceman, Millennium, and anyone else it may concern: if you're going to post, please read the thread. Not only are you wrong, but if you had read the posts preceding yours you'd know it. And if you can't be bothered to read the entire thread (which isn't unreasonable), then at least read the applicable sections of the SRD, in particular the description of Summon Monster and the rules on Callings and Summonings. Orphans, eh? HC Anderson was onto something with his match girl. Amazing how emotive they are. It's not as though we know a thing about this bunch apart from the deceased nature of their parents. Even so, this thread is increasingly full of highly charged emotional vocabularies and responses. None of which have much to do with the core rules of the game. Rule #1: the Summons does not have free will. Rule #2: the Summons is not the whole and unadulterated creature. Not-Rule #3: the core rules are silent on the question of Summons' memory. So: (1) If you Summon Jimmy, you get some part of him. He can't die, expend XP, or act with free will. He kills the orphans. The rules do not say whether or not he remembers their death. (2) The issue of Summons' memories is decided by the individual DM. (3) If you want a simple life, and have other fish to fry, rule that the Summons recalls nothing. The evil character has now played true to his alignment, Jimmy knows nothing of his actions (if they can be construed as his actions, since he has no free will), and everyone lives happily ever after; except, of course, the orphans. (4) If you don't want a simple life, rule that Jimmy remembers. You're the DM , that's your choice. But consider this: the rules are silent, and the choice is yours. Why are you ramifying a simple combat spell with moral and ethical dimensions? Do you personally find the player's roleplaying in this regard repugnant? If so, there is always the possibility that this metagame issue is affecting your decision to allow the Summons memory. Do you wish to drive home to the players the ramifications their actions have? In this case, be wary of driving home that message through a spell that certain PCs (Conjurers, for example) may have built their characters around, and may be using multiple times every day. Most of all, consider what you are as a DM. Are you the Umpire (yes)? Are you the Storyteller (yes)? If you want to be both of these things (and you should, if you are DMing), does your decision to allow Summons memory conflict with either of these roles (yes)? I see post after post here that sounds like draconic law enforcement. I hear people who sound as much fun to play with as the Inland Revenue/IRS. I find myself feeling very sorry for the players in such campaigns. A DM does have to enforce the law...but he also has to tell a story. Does Jimmy's Revenge constitute a story? Yes, actually. Is it a good story? It's okay. Will the players want to run through it twice? Three times? No, not really. Are you choosing to make that a possibility, and if so, why are you doing it? What about a celestial vendetta? Someone up above was advocating sending a higher CR vengeance force after the party that kills Jimmy, and an even higher CR force if the party wins through again. Is this the story you want to tell? What if your player rolepays his evil character as evil again (as he should, if he's roleplaying well)? Are you going to rerun the same vendetta-narrative again? Is that a *good* story? The answer to that is no. As the Storyteller, you can run this scenario once: twice will certainly be once too much. If you are already trying to tell a story, and it's a good one, a vendetta will distract the players from the main theme. It's fine to do that once, but repeat yourself and you'll bore them. The evil PC may feel (justifiably or not) that you are metagaming, since he is playing true to character. Being hunted down is an interesting adventure in and of itself, but if you keep on doing it, you'll be as much fun as the aforementioned tax inspector. If you do that, you are allowing the Umpire DM to overshadow the Storyteller. Again, that is your prerogative, but be aware that it weakens you as the Storyteller. Heavy-handed lawkeeping does not make you an excellent DM. It makes you *one* kind of DM - the Global Policeman kind - and if you allow that element to overrule all else, your world will be less dramatic, less engaging, and less effective for it. Never forget that as DM you have to compromise between a number of roles. Umpire and Storyteller are two of them. Repetitive vendettas over standard spellcasting do not enrich both. You think your evil PC will learn not to try it again? What do you think you're doing, training dogs to sit? That PC is playing evil, and that's legitimate unless you run a non-evil campaign. The choice of whether a Summons remembers the Summons is yours, but remember that as well as being judge and jury, you are also bard and orator.
Nezkrul 12-13-06, 03:39 PM	ASSUMING the Hound Archon even remember's what happens during the 54 seconds he was on the prime, and 23 hours 6 seconds he was in... um... purgatory or some where. That's a big assumption that isn't backed up by the rules. I argue from a RAW stand point. In my opinion, outsiders have just as busy lives as mortals on the prime do, but once in a while they black out for 24 hours. When they awake they realize they were summoned (or do they?) but since the rules doesn't say they remember everything, then it's DM adjudication. Now, please stop telling me that the Hound Archon would want retribution. You missed my sarcasm post about Hound Archons. They have their own busy lives to attend to, and the possibility of dieing for good if they plane shift to the prime to hunt down some single digit level wizard (who can't even cast Wail of the Banshee, Blasphemy, Finger of Death, and other higher level very nasty spells). They would more than likely find mortals and send them on a lesser geas/quest to find the wizard and bring him to justice if they can. Sure they are embodieing an aspect of good, cuz that's what extreme aligned outsiders are all about. But don't forget that they ARE intelligent, and they DO have their own fears, doubts, disbeliefs, and they DO fear true death. And if a wizard who summons a good critter to do bad deeds calls for a celestial strike force to hunt him down and kill him, again, why are ALL the big bad guys I listed previously still alive and commiting even WORSE atrocities in the multiverse? because sometimes, evil just gets away with it. accept it.
bitnine 12-13-06, 04:09 PM	If Elminster and Co are skipping around the realms, why are PC's needed, for example?Yeah, that is a good question. In a game that I ran, it would be because Elminster is busy dealing with Realms-level threats. Not that if he ever took a day off that the realms would aslpode (that sort of razor's edge view is sorta problematic itself), but rather, he doesn't often take off because he's proactively working on discovering, stemming, and heading off such realms-level threats so that when he does take a day off or fail in an endeavor that he has a buffer. The time that Elminster doesn't have a backlog of serious work that other people aren't capable of handling is a rare one indeed; and that's why subordinates and lesser heroes are needed. 'Sides, the leaving such threats to the less experienced help them to learn and grow for when other heroes eventually fall. (Seriously, if Elminster keep on pulling all the mobs, no one else would ding, then he'd eventually get lagged and horde zerg ftl!) There's also a larger planar cosmology in D&D. Mortals by and large aren't capable of the inhuman power and vile fiendishness of the elemental forces of evil - it is hubris to place their importance and power, even in villainy, so high in such a world. 'Course, other people have high level folk considerably less busy, which does make that a very good question.
Prak, the Mad 12-13-06, 06:36 PM	ASSUMING the Hound Archon even remember's what happens during the 54 seconds he was on the prime, and 23 hours 6 seconds he was in... um... purgatory or some where. That's a big assumption that isn't backed up by the rules. I argue from a RAW stand point. In my opinion, outsiders have just as busy lives as mortals on the prime do, but once in a while they black out for 24 hours. When they awake they realize they were summoned (or do they?) but since the rules doesn't say they remember everything, then it's DM adjudication. Now, please stop telling me that the Hound Archon would want retribution. You missed my sarcasm post about Hound Archons. They have their own busy lives to attend to, and the possibility of dieing for good if they plane shift to the prime to hunt down some single digit level wizard (who can't even cast Wail of the Banshee, Blasphemy, Finger of Death, and other higher level very nasty spells). They would more than likely find mortals and send them on a lesser geas/quest to find the wizard and bring him to justice if they can. Sure they are embodieing an aspect of good, cuz that's what extreme aligned outsiders are all about. But don't forget that they ARE intelligent, and they DO have their own fears, doubts, disbeliefs, and they DO fear true death. And if a wizard who summons a good critter to do bad deeds calls for a celestial strike force to hunt him down and kill him, again, why are ALL the big bad guys I listed previously still alive and commiting even WORSE atrocities in the multiverse? because sometimes, evil just gets away with it. accept it. I recently saw something in someone's sig that I think sums up the whole situation nicely. RAYW
redraven 12-13-06, 08:02 PM	The 9th+ level wizard is enough of a threat (he can interfere with the forces of good directly - he has proven both the ability and the will to do it) to warrant some intervention.[/b] Anyone who can cast a summon spell (nearly everyone aside from specialist wizards) can "interfere with the forces of good directly." And if summoning random hound archons is going to have a long-term (or even short-term) effect on the forces of the good, why haven't the demons/devils corrupted wizards into casting these spells as often as humanly possible? This aint a "you bad guy exploit rules. me childish DM smash you for being silly". This is a "hooboy! You just opened Pandora's box, there. When you attract attention from the heavens, the heaven react accordingly. What a great chance to roll up a cool arch-enemy. This is such a wicked adventure/campaign idea you just thrust upon yourself, thanks to your bad judgement!" As I mentioned earlier, and as Azarias so elegantly reinforced, usually DMs have better things to do than abandon the entire plot structure they have likely spent days crafting merely to employ (in-game) illogical deus ex machina. This is not to say that DMs should stick to a railroad-esque path regardless of what the PCs want to do or not try to craft a world with realistic consequences. Rather, this is a case in which the rules are silent as to what should happen. If you decide on a celestial strike force, you are actually making many more implicit decision about the campaign, namely: (A) the current plot will be abandoned as the party must face these new foes, (B) all summon spells are retro-actively exceedingly risky, and in fact more dangerous than Calling spells since you can always kill the Called creature, and (C) "great" evil is always punished by celestial strike forces the moment (or shortly thereafter) any good, intelligent outsider is made known about it. Think about (C) for a moment. If you as a DM has made it clear that celestial strike forces are a likely possibility in your campaign setting, then a good wizard should summon a hound archon in the BBEG's tower, have the archon look around, and then allow nature to take its course 24-48 hours later. Namely, the hound archon would "gather a strike force, petition other archons or gods themselves to get a plane shift, and then greater teleport to the location." Which immediately raises the question as to why the forces of good don't do this all the time. In a purported "realistic" game with verisimilitude, getting a witch hunt together for one summoner for one instance of debauchery only makes since if this sort of retaliation happens all the time, everywhere. You claim good outsiders have lives so important they can't hunt down and fight against known and threatening evil forces who have proven their treachery. Yet supposedly devils sit there all day and scry on random mortals, looking for someone to back up. Consistency please. What is stopping the summoner from conjuring up a bearded devil or Achaierai and simply doing the same thing in reverse (i.e. telling them to pass along a message)? Or doing a Lesser Planar Binding, which is also a 5th-level spell? It is absolutely consistent to do the same thing in reverse.
sigea 12-13-06, 09:00 PM	Anyone who can cast a summon spell (nearly everyone aside from specialist wizards) can "interfere with the forces of good directly." And if summoning random hound archons is going to have a long-term (or even short-term) effect on the forces of the good, why haven't the demons/devils corrupted wizards into casting these spells as often as humanly possible? Why? Maybe bucause of that very fact, there is retribution, otherwise I would imagine the opposite, that every chance an evil summoner\outsider got, they would summon a hound archon just to sit back and giggle. As people keep trying to state, RAW is silent on the issue on what happens\what is remembered by the summoned creature. To me, that means it is absolutely in the perogative of the DM to interpret what does happen to said creature. If a DM openly states what he\she believes happens to said summoned creatures, anyone who complains that they are targeted for making summoned hound archons commit such acts are not worth the time. Now I understand that this means that some DM's have "better things to do than railroad a campaign with sub plots", but some don't. I happen to play in a game that currently has about 27 different plot hooks that may\may not have impacts on others depending on when\how I complete them. To me, that's great, I know the action I make today, impact tomorrow, and as a Paladin that is fortold in myth to one day be King of the whole world, it is imperitive that I make the right decisions and weigh up my opions each and every time. sorry to those who play hack and slash but hey, that is roleplaying for you.
Prak, the Mad 12-13-06, 09:37 PM	As I mentioned earlier, and as Azarias so elegantly reinforced, usually DMs have better things to do than abandon the entire plot structure they have likely spent days crafting merely to employ (in-game) illogical deus ex machina. it's not deus ex machina, not in my mind, anyway, it's a plot hook for my group to hang their hats on. Deus Ex Machina is Han Solo swooping in to blow up the Deathstar(if he's an npc). EL appropriate groups appearing to attempt to bring the vile wizard to justice is an occasional diversion from the plot line that may one day become a major plot line of it's own. This is not to say that DMs should stick to a railroad-esque path regardless of what the PCs want to do or not try to craft a world with realistic consequences. Rather, this is a case in which the rules are silent as to what should happen. If you decide on a celestial strike force, you are actually making many more implicit decision about the campaign, namely: (A) the current plot will be abandoned as the party must face these new foes not necessarily. like I said previously in this post, and also previously in the thread, the celestial adventuring groups can be a minor diversion or complication that hints at a future plot line when the current one is over. (B) all summon spells are retro-actively exceedingly risky, and in fact more dangerous than Calling spells since you can always kill the Called creature, only when someone summons an intelligent, 'powerful' creature and commands it to commit an action against it's alignment. Summoning a celestial hawk to rip out the eyes of an orphan is not going to result in celestials pounding down the wizard's inn-room door demanding he pay for his hubris, as the hawk is a minor creature, little more than a normal animal in the upper planes. summoning a demon to play horsey with the orphans is probably going to result in said demon tracking you down and punching you in the face. summoning an marut to help you with a spellcraft check on a spell to turn you into a lich is going to get a VERY po-ed marut on your tail. and (C) "great" evil is always punished by celestial strike forces the moment (or shortly thereafter) any good, intelligent outsider is made known about it. eh. Vile acts, under the decision to have a small party of celestials attempt to bring the wizard to justice, will be punished by any offended party directly screwed with by the vile character. ok, I'm going to ask you to read the next paragraph in it's entirety, as it explains my thinking because I think you've been merely skimming my posts. Evil Wizard summons a hound archon to slaughter innocents. The wizard has DIRECTLY messed with the forces of good, and forced an intelligent, good creature with it's own goals and motivations to commit an act which greatly offends it. The hound archon returns to celestia and tells TWO OR THREE hound archon friends what happened. the next time they have leave(or whatever) they request to take it together and head out to attempt to find the wizard. THIS IS NOT A CELESTIAL STRIKE FORCE! This is a few hound archons avenging one of their own. If the hound archon dies, the party is free of harassment by celestials for a while until the hound archons patron(or cuthbert) becomes aware of what happened, and decides whether or not to punish the killing of three hound archons, seeing as the forces of good are permanently at war, the more militantly minded Cuthbert probably laments it as an unfortunate occurance of war. Someone who is close to the hound archons may attempt to avenge their deaths, and may request leave to do so. Their patron/general/whoever, if he knows what happened, will probably give standing orders to NOT attempt a mission of vengeance, the enemy is too powerful, and vengeance taken to the extreme is a slippery slope to evil. Now, as Hound Archons are LG, their closest friends likely are as well, and as such will most like obey orders, begrudgingly maybe, but obey them none the less. There MAY be a CG entity that was close friends with the Hound Archons and it may completely disregard orders. IF IT DOES, it will likely be COMPLETELY ALONE, and could well die. From here, the DM may decide what the Forces of Good do, and it could either become a major plot hook after or alongside the current one, or it can be dropped. A story CAN have multiple plots.
malignor 12-14-06, 11:40 AM	Anyone who can cast a summon spell (nearly everyone aside from specialist wizards) can "interfere with the forces of good directly." And if summoning random hound archons is going to have a long-term (or even short-term) effect on the forces of the good, why haven't the demons/devils corrupted wizards into casting these spells as often as humanly possible?Who is to say they don't? And who is to say that corrupting mortals is something that the supernatural forces of good fight against? Sounds like the traditional role of outsiders, to me. Mortals provide power to deities. Mortals die and become petitioners, which sometimes become outsiders. Mortal souls are the currency of the outer planes. If more evil people die, there are more souls in the lower planes. If more people die good, there are more in the upper planes. As a result, both sides try to influence the world by giving divine power to certain classes, or by starting up churches and attracting followers, or by corrupting and tempting mortals. Do you claim otherwise?As I mentioned earlier, and as Azarias so elegantly reinforced, usually DMs have better things to do than abandon the entire plot structure they have likely spent days crafting merely to employ (in-game) illogical deus ex machina. This is not to say that DMs should stick to a railroad-esque path regardless of what the PCs want to do or not try to craft a world with realistic consequences. Rather, this is a case in which the rules are silent as to what should happen.There are no rules for how you must build a campaign. There are no rules for how to construct a campaign plot or subplot. In the DMG there are plenty of suggestions and plenty of advice, but nothing saying what you "must" do. I hope you're not jumping to the wild conclusion that I'm being insistent, jumping down the collective world's throat saying "you must do this!". I'm not. What I am saying is "think about what would happen. ROLEPLAY your NPCs." and giving ideas on how something like this can turn into a campaign opportunity.If you decide on a celestial strike force, you are actually making many more implicit decision about the campaign, namely: (A) the current plot will be abandoned as the party must face these new foes, (B) all summon spells are retro-actively exceedingly risky, and in fact more dangerous than Calling spells since you can always kill the Called creature, and (C) "great" evil is always punished by celestial strike forces the moment (or shortly thereafter) any good, intelligent outsider is made known about it.A - False. Plots can coexist. B - False. Summons can't turn on you during the spell effect. Also, they have less to lose, so if you don't do something to force unfavorable attention from the outsider (like traumatize them, insult them or whatever), they likely chalk it up to another day at work/play. C - Only if the "great" evil is threatening the good outsiders first... like by kidnapping and forcing psychological torture on the outsiders. You're turning my argument into an illogical blanket statement.Think about (C) for a moment. ...[snip] only makes sense if this sort of retaliation happens all the time, everywhere.This argument is based on false assumptions about my argument. Negated.
Azarias 12-14-06, 04:16 PM	redraven: thanks. sigea, prak, malignor: of the three of you, only sigea is paying reference to Not-Rule #3 (the silence of the rules on the issue of Summons' memory). The examples you give, Prak, are based on a houserule, and you don't seem to have referenced that important fact. Summons are incomplete manifestations, with no free will. It is not a given that they are free to remember their summonings. Therefore the DM must houserule one way or the other: the Summons remembers, or it forgets. The question I'd like to put to the three of you is, why are you houseruling that Summons remember? What are the advantages of Summons having complete memories? Well, I'll let you answer that, but I can think of two. It allows you, as DM, to introduce a subplot. Let's call it Jimmy's Vengeance. It also allows you to hammer home to the players that their characters' actions will have consequences in your world. Those seem to me the two advantages, though you might find more. What are the disadvantages of Summoned memory? I think there are several, and I think they are more serious. Firstly, the subplot they lead to - Jimmy's Vengeance - is inflexible. It's always going to be much the same. A force of Good comes after the party. That's fun once. Twice less so. Three times not. That wouldn't matter if the trigger were something rare, like a Calling spell. But Summonses are a common magic, available from 1st level. If you have a PC in your campaign who has decided to play evil, and you are allowing them to play evil, then - if they roleplay - Jimmy's Vengeance may very well keep on happening, over and over. That's dull. Not because multiple plotlines are dull, but because *repetition* of plotlines is dull. As one of you says, plotlines can coexist, but not indefinitely, and not if they repeat themselves. Secondly, Summoned memory slows the game down. Again, plotlines can coexist, but if they propagate too widely they become entangled. They begin to drag. Plots need forward momentum to work. By basing Jimmy's Vengeance on a magic someone will likely use every week, you open yourself to the possibility of Jimmy's Vengeance cropping up every session. And once you've made the decision to allow Summons memory, you're stuck with it. As your central story loses pace, you may come to hate Jimmy's Vengeance just as much as your players will. This is not a good thing. Thirdly, showing your PCs the consequences of their actions through Summons is poor timing. Your adventure should be a work of art, just as the novel plot is art. Art is artificial, by definition. As the storyteller, it is a mistake to always sit back and let cause and effect take their course. If you want to show PCs that their actions resound, you have to time it. Does that seem unrealistic? Consider the alternative. The goblins the party killed in their first outing all have relatives, don't they? So do the crypt guards they massacred in week two. Not to mention the sahuagin, the druids, the frost giant and the cornugon they blew to smithereens last week. If you truly believe in following cause and effect to the letter, then all these murderous actions should lead to reactions. The PCs should have an army of relatives and hired mercenaries hellbent on vengeance and profit following them from town to town. Jimmy's Vengeance will be the least of their problems. But that would be a mistake. As storyteller, you have to choose your moments to hammer home reality. Fourthly, allowing Summons memory will have far-reaching concatenations in your world. If Jimmy is taking vengeance over the orphans, all the Jimmys need to do the same. Your Prime Material will then be awash in Celestials and lower-planar summons hell- or heaven-bent on righting their wrongs (or wronging their rights). If you're running a high-fantasy world, that's fine. If not, it isn't. Summoned Memory imposes a certain kind of setting. It limits the potential for world creation. Fifthly, Summoned memory conflicts with the rules for evil arcanists. Core RAW, arcanists have no alignment restrictions on their selection of spells. If you pursue the logic of Summoned memory to its end, it amounts to a ban on evil arcanists using good summons for evil; and vice versa. After all, in a world where the summonses continually take vengeance, and that vengeance escalates, arcanists are not truly free to choose any aligned spell. You may argue with this one, but what you are doing, in the end, is refusing to let evil arcanists summon good creatures; or for good ones to summon evil. Finally, my question still stands. Why, of two possible houserules, would you choose to allow summons to remember their summons?
UndeadViking 12-14-06, 04:56 PM	:mad: Lame.... If I were the DM, the summoner would definitely be considered to have committed an evil act. Just because he forced someone else to do it is no excuse. I would also have given the archon a chance to break the summoning and definitely would have visited the wrath of the powers of good on the summoner, somehow. As someone else mentioned, if the summoner had summoned a demon and ordered it to help defend an orphanage against a horde of evil attackers, I might also give the demon a chance to break the summoning, and the powers of evil would also sought vengeance on the summoner, somehow.
Azarias 12-14-06, 05:09 PM	Thanks, Undead Viking, for sharing your house rules. They are no more than that, however, and have no bearing on a discussion of rules as written. You are correct, of course, in saying the summoner has committed an evil act. If he is roleplaying an evil character (or a character he has decided will descend into evil), and the DM has not banned evil characters, then that is good roleplaying. Yes? Would anyone like to answer the question? I'm actually interested in answers to it.
malignor 12-14-06, 05:19 PM	Allright, first-off, I guess I should explain why I feel that summons should remember what they did when they "lost that day" and got summoned. There are a couple reasons. A summoner may want an ongoing relationship with a summoned being. A pact, a contract, or otherwise. It adds flavour to the otherwise ho-hum "I summon a random nobody from lower plane X." Especially if the same creature is summoned again, such as by name ("I call forth... The Brothers of Plague!" 1d4+1 Fiendish Dire Rats via SMIII). It makes a reason to treat summons with respect, as you may gain rewards or avoid trouble down the road. It adds an element to summoning that causes more consideration when selecting who to bring. It can create a reputation in the outer planes, provide a means to deliver messages to one's deity (especially if a cleric) and other social effects between mortals and the heavens/hells. Now, as I said, this is a preference on my part in the absence of rules. I like it, my players like it, and when I'm playing, the other DMs in my group tend to run it the same. With that in mind, you say once is fun, twice is pushing it and three times it gets tiresome. I disagree. Imagine the campaign proceeding as normal, but now and then, in the middle of things, some group of holy rollers, led by Good Outsiders you've antagonized (by summoning and abusing them) show up and screw everything up. Sometimes they screw things up to your advantage, but more often they make things more difficult. Maybe they find out who you're plotting to kill and rob, and they warn them and help them fortify against your attack, perhaps even setting up a tactical trap against the PCs. The point is that it adds a wildcard to the whole game, and you never know when they'll be back again. It add drama, a personal struggle between two enemies. Imagine how well the PC can thwart matters by summoning this Archon, by name, during a fight with the Archon's own party, or summon him and extract all manner of information against the Archon's will. Suddenly, it's a whole new game. And it's fun. If you want vanilla summons, be my guest, and please ignore my noisy thoughts that might declare your DM style shallow and boring for my tastes, because it's all about personal taste and opinion. But if you want repercussions to summons, feel free to borrow some ideas I offer. Keep in mind, also, that choosing for the Hound Archon to not remember is just as much a houserule as ruling it to remember.
Azarias 12-14-06, 05:41 PM	Thanks (no, really this time ;) ), malignor. That's a thoughtful response. I can see what you mean. It's not the route I'd go down myself, but I can appreciate your reasoning. When you talk about pacts and relationships, that sounds to me like Calling spells. Callings certainly do open up the possibilities for this type of subplot. They almost demand it: most Calling spells are pretty much miniature stories in themselves (I'm not a great fan of Gate as a combat spell, for just this reason; too much plot mid-combat). Here's my own take, and then I think I'm going to leave this thread to lie: Summons are intended to be streamlined, quickdraw combat spells. Callings are quite the opposite. Personally, I like both of those just the way they are (or at least, how they seem to be to me). Adding complexity to Summons blurs the line for me. I appreciate having two distinct types: Callings for complex narrative, Summons for (relatively) quickfire, fast-and-furious, exciting combat. I think the fact that there *are* two different ways to conjure creatures suggests the designers have these issues in mind. But I'll grant that I may be reading too much into that. At any rate, happy DMing, and may all your orphans live happily ever after :)
malignor 12-14-06, 06:29 PM	Thanks (no, really this time ;) ), malignor. That's a thoughtful response. [snip] At any rate, happy DMing, and may all your orphans live happily ever after :)Thanks. Likewise. BEHOLD! Proof that people can disagree and still be respectful, even on internet forums! Maybe there's hope for humankind after all. ... naah.
sigea 12-14-06, 06:34 PM	Originally Posted by Azarias Thanks (no, really this time ), malignor. That's a thoughtful response. [snip] At any rate, happy DMing, and may all your orphans live happily ever after Thanks. Likewise. BEHOLD! Proof that people can disagree and still be respectful, even on internet forums! Maybe there's hope for humankind after all. Here Here, malignor, Azarias, I salute you, thank you both for providing your sides of the argument, and that although at times it may have been a bit heated, there was a decorum that proved the maturity of you both. Agree to disagree, I wish more of us could come to such thoughtful conculsions.:clap:
Kilsek of Sheverash 12-14-06, 06:50 PM	Gotta watch out for those dangerous orphan "opponents" we run into every session. :rolleyes:
Yaeri 12-14-06, 07:09 PM	BEHOLD! Proof that people can disagree and still be respectful, even on internet forums! Nah, he's faking it. :P :D
redraven 12-14-06, 08:32 PM	Why? Maybe bucause of that very fact, there is retribution, otherwise I would imagine the opposite, that every chance an evil summoner\outsider got, they would summon a hound archon just to sit back and giggle. This is circular. We are trying to determine whether it hinders the forces of good to begin with, so retribution cannot be presumed. not necessarily. like I said previously in this post, and also previously in the thread, the celestial adventuring groups can be a minor diversion or complication that hints at a future plot line when the current one is over. It is not at all clear whether or not the "vile" action was performed in a standard campaign or an evil campaign. In the former case, celestial strike forces would most certainly change the entire campaign dynamic. It matters not whether Jimmy the hound archon gathered a group of his buddies to hunt down the summoner "on his leave" (if outsiders, paragons of alignment, even have or need leave time in their eternal struggles), as the fact remains the party is now hunted by LG outsiders. What about the rest of the party? If they assist the summoner, they are now slaying the forces of good in defense of an evil summoner. If they turn on him? Probably the most logical course unless they were evil or neutral to begin with, but they would hardly need a celestial squad in order to come to this course of action. only when someone summons an intelligent, 'powerful' creature and commands it to commit an action against it's alignment. Summoning a celestial hawk to rip out the eyes of an orphan is not going to result in celestials pounding down the wizard's inn-room door demanding he pay for his hubris, as the hawk is a minor creature, little more than a normal animal in the upper planes. summoning a demon to play horsey with the orphans is probably going to result in said demon tracking you down and punching you in the face. summoning an marut to help you with a spellcraft check on a spell to turn you into a lich is going to get a VERY po-ed marut on your tail. The problem is that you are writing in spell text that simply does not exist, nor is hinted at all. Fireball does not specify how exactly a house or corn field will burn down and at rate, for example, but it does mention that it sets things on fire. The summon monster spells do not mention anything at all about what the summon remembers, that the summon can later track down the summoner (or even that such a danger exists), or anything remotely analogous. It was not until a supplement was released that we even knew the summoned creature even had memories of what happened. In any case, it should not matter if it was a hound archon or a celestial hawk by your argument. It is still hindering the forces of good, forcing a creature to act against its alignment, using good to commit vile deed, etcetera. eh. Vile acts, under the decision to have a small party of celestials attempt to bring the wizard to justice, will be punished by any offended party directly screwed with by the vile character. So the mad king that eats children three days a week while their crucified parents watch the banquette never warrants a celestial strike force as long as said king does not summon a hound archon as a dinner guest? This is my point: the wizard killed orphans in this singular instance. It is not even clear whether the wizard was evil to begin with, but things of this caliber (and far, far worse) happen every day of the week. There has already been the "well, the bigger (evil) fish are fried by the higher CR angels" argument but it is similarly without justification considering that greater evil can be precipitated by a 1st-level Commoner. Or just consider a tribe of cannibals. Or a culture that stones its members to death (including the children) when any individuals steps out of line. Or any of the other infinite possibilities in which the same/comparable/worse evils are committed on the infinite Material Plane. The celestial strike force is unjustified overkill and screams "DM fury" in any sort of campaign setting in which similar evils are not dealt with by a host of celestials. Using the "abuse of the forces of good" argument has yet to be substantiated by any sort of rules text or logic, as described above. Indeed, perhaps the most ardent of the arguments, that the example wizard is subverting the archon into doing its bidding against its will, is called into question by virtue of the the hound archon's (and all archons') constant Magic Circle Against Evil effect which specifically excludes the archon's ability to be affected by "ongoing mental control." How is that rationalized in this argument? It has already been conceded that the hound archon obeys the summoner without question, despite this absolute protection against such control. Who is to say they don't? And who is to say that corrupting mortals is something that the supernatural forces of good fight against? Sounds like the traditional role of outsiders, to me. Mortals provide power to deities. Mortals die and become petitioners, which sometimes become outsiders. Mortal souls are the currency of the outer planes. If more evil people die, there are more souls in the lower planes. If more people die good, there are more in the upper planes. As a result, both sides try to influence the world by giving divine power to certain classes, or by starting up churches and attracting followers, or by corrupting and tempting mortals. Do you claim otherwise? To answer the first question: the supposed verisimilitude that every person in this thread agrees upon. If summons did interfere with the forces of good to the degree it has been suggested, then it follows that evil will be spending all its time summoning good creatures to battle each other. Considering that evil outsiders outnumber good outsides by some ridiculous ratio, then it further follows that good should have been defeated eons ago. Any individual members of the strike forces can be summoned at any time throughout the infinite Material Plane and would be able to accomplish little at all. The rest of what you said is an irrelevant straw man that has little to do with anything that I have said or claimed. There are no rules for how you must build a campaign. There are no rules for how to construct a campaign plot or subplot. In the DMG there are plenty of suggestions and plenty of advice, but nothing saying what you "must" do. I hope you're not jumping to the wild conclusion that I'm being insistent, jumping down the collective world's throat saying "you must do this!". I'm not. What I am saying is "think about what would happen. ROLEPLAY your NPCs." and giving ideas on how something like this can turn into a campaign opportunity. Of course. But one cannot argue that a campaign should be consistent and then completely ignore all the ramifications of said consistency. I suppose one could selectively ignore certain ramifications, but that hardly makes for a compelling argument for consistency. A - False. Plots can coexist. B - False. Summons can't turn on you during the spell effect. Also, they have less to lose, so if you don't do something to force unfavorable attention from the outsider (like traumatize them, insult them or whatever), they likely chalk it up to another day at work/play. C - Only if the "great" evil is threatening the good outsiders first... like by kidnapping and forcing psychological torture on the outsiders. You're turning my argument into an illogical blanket statement. A: I should have been more clear with my statement. I have explained more of what I meant in the above remarks made in response to Prak's post. Namely that the party either has to take the summoner's side and aid evil (becoming targets and/or evil themselves) or turn on their former comrade. Being actively hunted by the forces of a good is a tremendous break from raiding dungeon X for cash and prizes. B: Hardly false, by your (and Prak's and sigea's, etc) very explanation of what happens afterward. Hound archon gathers buddies, gets plane shifted to the Material Plane, greater teleports to previous location, and (attempts to) takes revenge. And what supposedly "traumatizes" a LG hound archon is completely unsupported anywhere - we seem to be in agreement that killing orphans is over the top, but what about being forced to kill innocents in general, other LG outsiders, aiding evil spellcasters in a general sense, etcetera, etcetera? C: That hardly fits the description of LG by any stretch of the imagination. See the "baby-eating king" scenario I described above - no outsiders involved, so no divine response?
sigea 12-14-06, 09:08 PM	redraven, I think the rest of us have come to an agreement that what a summoned creature remembers, and what it does as a result of that is left purely in the hands of the DM. If the DM and the players allow it, then what I and others have said is legit. If DM and players don't allow it, then what you and malignor have stated is correct. We have agreed to disagree on DMing styles and that is it. Just because something is not written on a glossy piece of paper, does not mean it cannot\should not be done. It was not until a supplement was released that we even knew the summoned creature even had memories of what happened. In any case, it should not matter if it was a hound archon or a celestial hawk by your argument. It is still hindering the forces of good, forcing a creature to act against its alignment, using good to commit vile deed, etcetera. And yes it does matter, we are not saying it is ok to summon a celestial hawk to do the very same thing, we are saying that a celestial hawk does not have the intelligence to be able to react to such activity, a hound archon, who is an itelligent sentient being, does.
Prak, the Mad 12-15-06, 12:55 AM	Thanks, Undead Viking, for sharing your house rules. They are no more than that, however, and have no bearing on a discussion of rules as written. Edit: Can we assume the following was said in a more polite manner? it's been a crappy day... this is the only thing I feel I have to respond to, or indeed, the mental energy... You yourself said that a decision on Summon memory one way or the other is a house rule. So if we have to shut up about ours, you have to shut up about yours. oh. and a plot line can evolve, and the reason that celestials and demons aren't running all over prime killing sumoners is several fold. 1st- most creatures are summoned by people who share in their philosophical ideals and goals. 2nd- demons are more or less solitary creatures, and whil I maintain that evil can love and can have friends(personal experience has taught me such), they will usually undertake revenge solo. 3rd- Vengeance quickly leads to evil, and most celestial generals and such will advise subordinates against it, even in cases such as this. *stuff* oh f@3% it.... and thanks Malignor, for bringing some civility to the discussion.
malignor 12-15-06, 07:12 PM	It is not at all clear whether or not the "vile" action was performed in a standard campaign or an evil campaign. In the former case, celestial strike forces would most certainly change the entire campaign dynamic. It matters not whether Jimmy the hound archon gathered a group of his buddies to hunt down the summoner "on his leave" (if outsiders, paragons of alignment, even have or need leave time in their eternal struggles), as the fact remains the party is now hunted by LG outsiders. What about the rest of the party? If they assist the summoner, they are now slaying the forces of good in defense of an evil summoner. If they turn on him? Probably the most logical course unless they were evil or neutral to begin with, but they would hardly need a celestial squad in order to come to this course of action.Slaughtering orphans alone will already lead to the Summoner being a likely target for "justice". The local authorities would see the vileness of this act and there will be repercussions. So either way, Hound Archon or not, the party is in the same situation. This is irrelevant in the question of the summoning itself.The problem is that you are writing in spell text that simply does not exist, nor is hinted at all. Fireball does not specify how exactly a house or corn field will burn down and at rate, for example, but it does mention that it sets things on fire. The summon monster spells do not mention anything at all about what the summon remembers, that the summon can later track down the summoner (or even that such a danger exists), or anything remotely analogous. It was not until a supplement was released that we even knew the summoned creature even had memories of what happened.The rules are silent, and do not even imply either way, and there is no "default" to adopt, such as imposing concepts from reality to adjudicate the holes in game mechanics (like the physical description of a human, for example). Thus I can rule as I see fit, and advise others how I see fit. You're not saying anything that contributes to this argument in this paragraph. Also, nothing we already haven't heard and addressed ad nauseum.In any case, it should not matter if it was a hound archon or a celestial hawk by your argument. It is still hindering the forces of good, forcing a creature to act against its alignment, using good to commit vile deed, etcetera.Great. How does the hawk even begin to locate the summoner after the fact? It cannot use any forms of divination or teleportation, and cannot track. How important is the hawk in the ranks of supernatural good? Isn't it just a hawk that happens to be indigenous to the upper planes? Bad comparison. The Hound Archon, as many have stated, has a role to play in the upper planes. By being summoned, he loses 24 hours (read up on summoning). So that's 24 hours of acting for the forces of good, lost, for a few rounds for the sake of evil gained. That's a pretty cut & dry, undeniable analysis of "disrupting the forces of good"; Sacrificing XY actions good for X evil ones.So the mad king that eats children three days a week while their crucified parents watch the banquette never warrants a celestial strike force as long as said king does not summon a hound archon as a dinner guest? This is my point: the wizard killed orphans in this singular instance. It is not even clear whether the wizard was evil to begin with, but things of this caliber (and far, far worse) happen every day of the week. There has already been the "well, the bigger (evil) fish are fried by the higher CR angels" argument but it is similarly without justification considering that greater evil can be precipitated by a 1st-level Commoner. Or just consider a tribe of cannibals. Or a culture that stones its members to death (including the children) when any individuals steps out of line. Or any of the other infinite possibilities in which the same/comparable/worse evils are committed on the infinite Material Plane.You catch on fast. If you're a good person, would you stop a murderer if you could? What if you didn't know about said murderer and they were in a remote village in Tibet? It's out of your awareness or ability to do anything, it's inconvenient, and you already have enough problems within arm's reach to start worrying about the things you can't know or do anything about. The forces of the upper planes do what they can to stop evil. If that evil happens to become their problem, they try to stop it. Kidnapping and converting someone into a temporary agent of evil certainly qualifies as "their problem", don't you think?The celestial strike force is unjustified overkill and screams "DM fury" in any sort of campaign setting in which similar evils are not dealt with by a host of celestials. Using the "abuse of the forces of good" argument has yet to be substantiated by any sort of rules text or logic, as described above.Who is advocating an encounter with an impossibly difficult group of good outsiders? Names and quotes, please. I think you're gravely misinterpreting "celestial task force", and taking it to some unrealistic extreme.Indeed, perhaps the most ardent of the arguments, that the example wizard is subverting the archon into doing its bidding against its will, is called into question by virtue of the the hound archon's (and all archons') constant Magic Circle Against Evil effect which specifically excludes the archon's ability to be affected by "ongoing mental control." How is that rationalized in this argument? It has already been conceded that the hound archon obeys the summoner without question, despite this absolute protection against such control.I thought about that too. But after a few pages, the debate sort of became one starting with "let's assuming for the sake of argument that the Archon remembers, and the summoner's control is absolute". So, with that in mind, I argue within those parameters.To answer the first question: the supposed verisimilitude that every person in this thread agrees upon. If summons did interfere with the forces of good to the degree it has been suggested, then it follows that evil will be spending all its time summoning good creatures to battle each other. Considering that evil outsiders outnumber good outsides by some ridiculous ratio, then it further follows that good should have been defeated eons ago. Any individual members of the strike forces can be summoned at any time throughout the infinite Material Plane and would be able to accomplish little at all.Care to tell me which being of the lower planes have levels in Bard, Sorcerer or Wizard (the only three classes that can pull this stunt)?The rest of what you said is an irrelevant straw man that has little to do with anything that I have said or claimed.I asked some questions about what you think of the role of outsiders, and the relationship between mortals and beings of the outer planes. How is that an argument?Of course. But one cannot argue that a campaign should be consistent and then completely ignore all the ramifications of said consistency. I suppose one could selectively ignore certain ramifications, but that hardly makes for a compelling argument for consistency.I think letting it slide is horribly inconsistent. When you kidnap someone for 24 hours and temporarily enslave them into performing atrocities, that kidnapped individual and his friends and family are darn likely to do something about it. Sounds consistent to me. Explain how my application of cause & effect is less consistent with your opinion on how to run things. A: I should have been more clear with my statement. I have explained more of what I meant in the above remarks made in response to Prak's post. Namely that the party either has to take the summoner's side and aid evil (becoming targets and/or evil themselves) or turn on their former comrade. Being actively hunted by the forces of a good is a tremendous break from raiding dungeon X for cash and prizes.As stated, the presence or absence of denizens of higher planes is irrelevant to this. People tend to get upset when an orphanage in their town gets slaughtered. That's the sort of action that would bring angry heroes out of the woodwork. The wizard's party has to handle it, one way or another, one day or another.B: Hardly false, by your (and Prak's and sigea's, etc) very explanation of what happens afterward. Hound archon gathers buddies, gets plane shifted to the Material Plane, greater teleports to previous location, and (attempts to) takes revenge. And what supposedly "traumatizes" a LG hound archon is completely unsupported anywhere - we seem to be in agreement that killing orphans is over the top, but what about being forced to kill innocents in general, other LG outsiders, aiding evil spellcasters in a general sense, etcetera, etcetera?Summoning beings to do tasks based on their alignment is a pretty safe bet. Summoning a Vrock to slaughter orphans will likely result in the Vrock letting out a gleeful giggle. Summoning a Hound Archon to help rescue children from a burning building will probably earn you brownie points from the heavens. It's also a safe bet that LG outsiders would get upset if forced to do evil acts of any sort, considering LG outsiders literally live, breathe and eat LG, are made of LG and are (lesser) forms of the very embodiment of LG. Summoning elementals or relatively "dumb" creatures is also a safe bet, because they either don't care, don't understand or are too dumb to figure out how to respond to the final outcome of the summoning. Only when summoning intelligent and capable beings, then misusing them would you have to worry about the repercussions.C: That hardly fits the description of LG by any stretch of the imagination. See the "baby-eating king" scenario I described above - no outsiders involved, so no divine response?I don't understand what you're saying here. Bob kidnaps Jimmy and makes him perform atrocities, and it's not fitting in LG for Jimmy to want to flatten Bob before he hurts or kidnaps anyone else? Is that what you're trying to say? If so, Paladins must have a hard time in games you run. They can't track down and fight evil people who have the power and will to enslave good guys for the purpose of slaughtering children without breeching their LG nature and losing their powers?and thanks Malignor, for bringing some civility to the discussion.You're very welcome, Prak... oh yeah, and sigged.
Ramble 12-16-06, 12:41 AM	Good arguments, but even if the Hound does recall and want payback on the summoner the plot idea does rely on the ability of these forces to reach the summoner. Since Greater Teleport doesn't do interplanner travel in 3.5, the Hound Archon has just as much ability as the Celestial Hawk to identify and reach the Material plane of the summoner to then teleport and track in pursuit after all. A cursory check shows only a handful of all the possible summon monster spell choices can reach another plane to try this personally: The Xill (ethereal only), the two Genies, and the Couatl could try to reach the Material plane of the caster, but even the Djinn and Couatl are not the corner stones of universal good from goodly planes and so would be acting out of as much righteousness as a neutral party wanting payback for being summoned for humiliating acts. The only outer planner strongly aligned creature on the summon monster table seems to be the Bebilith (demon), who can only planeshift itself, and while vicious, prefers to hunt other demons. While it is a fine plot hook to have an summoned monster, abused or humiliated, coming for revenge, it isn't enough of a threat to make the spell too dangerous to use, regardless of if the GM grants it recall of events. Ramble.
malignor 12-16-06, 01:45 AM	Good arguments, but even if the Hound does recall and want payback on the summoner the plot idea does rely on the ability of these forces to reach the summoner. Since Greater Teleport doesn't do interplanner travel in 3.5, the Hound Archon has just as much ability as the Celestial Hawk to identify and reach the Material plane of the summoner to then teleport and track in pursuit after all.Trumpet Archons generally have Plane Shift in their spell list. If a Hound Archon can convince a Trumpet Archon to take him and a buddy or two to the prime...
Prak, the Mad 12-16-06, 02:37 AM	well... except that ANYONE can travel to other planes in D&D as long as they know how it works. The Astral plane connects to all the other planes, right? then the hound archons could find a portal to a transitive plane, and then a portal to the material plane. right? forgive me if I made a mistake, I never focused on the transitive planes much, so I'm not one hundred percent. Another thing is something someone else said we'd agreed didn't matter but I don't remember seeing discussion about. The Hound Archon's Magic Circle Against Evil. Seeing the comment about it made me finally look in PHB and MM to see exactly what the RAW said, and came to the conclusion that I, personally, would create a house rule saying that the Evil wizard could summon the Hound Archon, but the Hound Archon wouldn't be compelled to obey, because of it's Magic Circle effect. what do you guys say?
malignor 12-16-06, 10:43 AM	The Hound Archon's Magic Circle Against Evil. Seeing the comment about it made me finally look in PHB and MM to see exactly what the RAW said, and came to the conclusion that I, personally, would create a house rule saying that the Evil wizard could summon the Hound Archon, but the Hound Archon wouldn't be compelled to obey, because of it's Magic Circle effect. what do you guys say?The house rule is pretty solid, and barely a houserule at all, considering it's mechanically sound, depending on interpretation of the effects of the circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm). However, another interpretation is that the summoning control comes from conjuration and thus is a sort of "cheat" that sneaks past the mind control defenses of MCircle. Keep in mind that, for the sake of consistency, and as per the circle effects, mind control prevention works regardless of alignment. Thus, even a good summoner cannot control the Archon as per that ruling, so there will likely have to be some social interaction between any summoner and any archon. This would prevent the abuse in the first place, as well as prevent the whole "OMG you used me as a tool for evil! I, Jimmy, will be back for you... just you wait!" argument to a large degree. In fact, an evil summoner can call up a Hound Archon who, if protected from mind control as is reasonably adjudicated as well, would hear the vile commend, detect his evilness and turn on him immediately.
Nezkrul 12-16-06, 12:33 PM	This would prevent the abuse in the first place, as well as prevent the whole "OMG you used me as a tool for evil! I, Jimmy, will be back for you... just you wait!" argument to a large degree. In fact, an evil summoner can call up a Hound Archon who, if protected from mind control as is reasonably adjudicated as well, would hear the vile commend, detect his evilness and turn on him immediately. except that no where in the summons spells does it say that this can happen. And a summon spell does not have the [Mind Affecting] or [Compulsion] descriptors, so you are incorrect in stating that the circle effect will give them free will during the summons.
Nitan 12-16-06, 01:12 PM	By the way, and again personal opinion, nothing more, I would even rule that certain devils and other evil critters would not kill the orphans. Evil does mean DEPRAVED. Am I the only one who finds this hilarious? And, it sucks to be the Hound Archon. Maybe he'll try to get revenge, go crazy, and fall. It's win win.
malignor 12-16-06, 02:29 PM	except that no where in the summons spells does it say that this can happen. And a summon spell does not have the [Mind Affecting] or [Compulsion] descriptors, so you are incorrect in stating that the circle effect will give them free will during the summons.I believe an exercise in literacy is in order.The house rule is pretty solid, and barely a houserule at all, considering it's mechanically sound, depending on interpretation of the effects of the circle. However, another interpretation is that the summoning control comes from conjuration and thus is a sort of "cheat" that sneaks past the mind control defenses of MCircle. [snip] In fact, an evil summoner can call up a Hound Archon who, if protected from mind control as is reasonably adjudicated as well, would hear the vile commend, detect his evilness and turn on him immediately.I believe the correct phrase is "hooray for reading skills". You are grasping for straws, your hands finding only razor wire.
Ramble 12-16-06, 07:32 PM	Trumpet Archons generally have Plane Shift in their spell list. If a Hound Archon can convince a Trumpet Archon to take him and a buddy or two to the prime... well... except that ANYONE can travel to other planes in D&D as long as they know how it works. The Astral plane connects to all the other planes, right? then the hound archons could find a portal to a transitive plane, and then a portal to the material plane. right? forgive me if I made a mistake, I never focused on the transitive planes much, so I'm not one hundred percent. The point in my post was that while it is a possible for summoned creatures to want to seek revenge for the acts it is made to do while summoned, very few, especially of the relevant alignment based creatures, can do so easily. 'While it is a fine plot hook to have an summoned monster, abused or humiliated, coming for revenge, it isn't enough of a threat to make the spell too dangerous to use, regardless of if the GM grants it recall of events.' Yes, you could ask an ally to plane shift you there, wait or help, then plane shift you home, or try to reach the prime via the gates and portals. But the former takes time in memorisation and leaves time on foriegn plane and not at work, and the latter is normally an ordeal and not known to every joe. Then of course the creature must be absolutely sure of which plane he was summoned to. It may be easy to justify that the summoned Djinn who wants to return to the place he was summoned can plane shift back (without a reliable landing point and no ability to track or teleport after the summoner). Poor Mr Hound Archon who wants payback has to explain enough detail to his 'travel agent' where he wants to be sent or what portals/doorways to take, starting with the dmg info on planes, thats 28 infinitie or near infinite planes, plus possibly infinite interplanner layers, alternate dimensions, and pocket spaces. Once he finds the right one he can then teleport to where he was summoned, and use his tracking ability to try and hunt the summoner down. Certainly not impossible, but it isn't every time you cast Summon Monster for self amusement isn't a risk of making another enemy unless you really go out of your way to make one. Especially for any but the highest levels of SM. Ramble.
redraven 12-17-06, 03:18 AM	I apologize to everyone in advance for the length of this post. Slaughtering orphans alone will already lead to the Summoner being a likely target for "justice". The local authorities would see the vileness of this act and there will be repercussions. So either way, Hound Archon or not, the party is in the same situation. This is irrelevant in the question of the summoning itself. You seem to have missed the entire reason I have been arguing against a celestial strike force, considering you have just perfectly agreed to what I have been saying all along: celestial strikes forces are unnecessary. I said the following back on page 5: In my experience, Evil tends to regulate itself - evil PCs typically become radically paranoid, the general population tends to not grant as many favors, and interactions with most important/story NPCs tend to start off worse than they would have been otherwise (even if said important/story NPC is evil to begin with). And this on page 6: [...] If the wizard wasn't evil to begin with, well, an alignment change to evil is its own penalty. Suddenly getting healing at the local temple, walking into bars with overzealous paladins, and all manners of mundane things suddenly become dangerous. None of which need involve a tactical, celestial strike force headed by the wronged Hound Archons. If the goal is to increase campaign verisimilitude, sending strike squads over one summoning spell is not the way to do it. [...] I have not been advocating against punishment for the evil wizard. I have been advocating against divine punishment for the evil wizard. In almost all cases it is unnecessary overkill and stretches campaign/cosmology logic all to hell unless you are operating in a campaign/cosmology where evil actions by mortals are routinely handled in similar fashion (which has its own internal inconsistencies). The rules are silent, and do not even imply either way, and there is no "default" to adopt, such as imposing concepts from reality to adjudicate the holes in game mechanics (like the physical description of a human, for example). Thus I can rule as I see fit, and advise others how I see fit. You're not saying anything that contributes to this argument in this paragraph. Also, nothing we already haven't heard and addressed ad nauseum. The "default" is using RAW, which mentions nothing at all about the possibility of retribution later or any lasting consequences of use. Planar Ally? Payment, negotiations, etc. Planar Binding? Dangerous, requires negotiation, and by RAW "The creature might later seek revenge." The Summoning spells list nothing at all similar. In any event, I find it amusing you state one cannot " concepts from reality to adjudicate the holes in game mechanics" when, in fact, you state later in the same post: I think letting it slide is horribly inconsistent. When you kidnap someone for 24 hours and temporarily enslave them into performing atrocities, that kidnapped individual and his friends and family are darn likely to do something about it. Sounds consistent to me. Anyway. Great. How does the hawk even begin to locate the summoner after the fact? It cannot use any forms of divination or teleportation, and cannot track. How important is the hawk in the ranks of supernatural good? Isn't it just a hawk that happens to be indigenous to the upper planes? Bad comparison. Celestial Hawks of an Int score of 3, putting them in the "human-like" intelligence category. In any case, it remains to be seen the difference (in a scale of convoluted-ness) it is for a celestial hawk to make a Trumpet Archon aware of Bob the Evil Summoner and to take action versus a Hound Archon to do the same thing. A Hound Archon may be able to state his/her case better and be relatively independent once plane shifted or whatever, but the action of "hindering the forces of good, forcing a creature to act against its alignment, using good to commit vile deed, etcetera" still applies. Moreover, I could turn the question around and ask how important Hound Archons are to the ranks of supernatural good. Are we basing it on CR? Intelligence? What? The Hound Archon, as many have stated, has a role to play in the upper planes. By being summoned, he loses 24 hours (read up on summoning). So that's 24 hours of acting for the forces of good, lost, for a few rounds for the sake of evil gained. That's a pretty cut & dry, undeniable analysis of "disrupting the forces of good"; Sacrificing XY actions good for X evil ones. It takes 24 hours of the Hound Archons time if said Archon is slain. If not, it is instantly back wherever it was. I suggest you "read up on summoning:" Summoning A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. Only a really liberal reading of the above could even possibly suggest that the "24 hours to reform" applies to a summon both at the end of the spell's duration (e.g. summon is still alive) and also when it dies. I have been meaning to address this since it was first claimed otherwise, but it did not seem especially relevant until now. You catch on fast. If you're a good person, would you stop a murderer if you could? What if you didn't know about said murderer and they were in a remote village in Tibet? It's out of your awareness or ability to do anything, it's inconvenient, and you already have enough problems within arm's reach to start worrying about the things you can't know or do anything about. The forces of the upper planes do what they can to stop evil. If that evil happens to become their problem, they try to stop it. Kidnapping and converting someone into a temporary agent of evil certainly qualifies as "their problem", don't you think? How is getting a Trumpet Archon to use their (typically prepared) one Plane Shift a day and multiple other Hound Archons to travel down to the Material Plane and hunt a single evil summoner not "inconvenient" or suddenly more important than the other problems "within arm's reach?" Would not any Hound Archon going through with this vendetta be considered selfish in doing so, considering the nature of the LG alignment and the nature of the larger war on evil (and evil outsiders, whom presumably are "within arms reach")? Who is advocating an encounter with an impossibly difficult group of good outsiders? Names and quotes, please. I think you're gravely misinterpreting "celestial task force", and taking it to some unrealistic extreme. Where did I presume "an encounter with an impossibly difficult group of good outsiders?" Further, exactly how am I "gravely misinterpreting" a celestial strike force? Has the suggested course of action not involved four CR 4 celestials along with the aid of a CR 14 celestial, all n retribution for the singular use of a 5th level spell? If anything, I think it is clear that divine retribution (in any form) in this scenario is "taking it to some unrealistic extreme." As I have said before: If the goal is to increase campaign verisimilitude, sending strike squads over one summoning spell is not the way to do it. Even multiple summonings should not qualify given the atrocities committed on a planar scale every day of the week. If Bob the Evil Summoner [i]only committed evil by using a celestial summon spell, maybe that could grab some attention, or any evil character generally above 15th level. Care to tell me which being of the lower planes have levels in Bard, Sorcerer or Wizard (the only three classes that can pull this stunt)? Care to tell me how this comment: If summons did interfere with the forces of good to the degree it has been suggested, then it follows that evil will be spending all its time summoning good creatures to battle each other. Considering that evil outsiders outnumber good outsides by some ridiculous ratio, then it further follows that good should have been defeated eons ago. ...suddenly implies that I was saying evil outsiders were doing the summoning? I'll save you the trouble: it doesn't. I asked some questions about what you think of the role of outsiders, and the relationship between mortals and beings of the outer planes. How is that an argument? You asked if I claimed otherwise. I did not, in fact, claim anything about the traditional role of outsiders, petitioners, powers of dieties, or anything at all related to the quoted paragraph. Nor, as I have stated, is any of that relevant to what we are discussing. I think letting it slide is horribly inconsistent. When you kidnap someone for 24 hours and temporarily enslave them into performing atrocities, that kidnapped individual and his friends and family are darn likely to do something about it. Sounds consistent to me. Explain how my application of cause & effect is less consistent with your opinion on how to run things. Who said about letting it slide? If by "letting it slide" you mean "no celestial strike force," then yes, I have been arguing that it should be so slid. I have not, at any point in this discussion, suggested that nothing at all happen to Bob the Evil Summoner throughout the game/campaign - as I have stated since the beginning, evil tends to regulate itself. Bob will have to answer to his party, or if they are evil themselves, the lot of them will answer to an increasing hostile/desperate populace, some of which are probably adventurers, important NPCs, paladins, etcetera. The problem with your form of consistency revolves around the use of divine outsiders to mete out justice in person, usurping any form of natural justice. If evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky every time an orphan is slain, why is there so much evil in the world? Furthermore, if said divine justice is presumably in such great supply to justify the expedition to track down a single wizard, why haven't the celestial outsiders defeated the evil outsiders by now? The default cosmology presents a beleaguered celestial vanguard barely hanging onto control versus a seemingly endless stream of evil forces. It is widely known that the Blood War is the only real reason that Evil (with a capital E) has not already laid waste to the multiverse. Unless you posit an alternate cosmology, which none have done thus far, it should be clear that celestial forces cannot possibly expend the resources to combat evil on the infinite Material Plane, let alone on other planes. That is why the celestial strike force is inconsistent. As stated, the presence or absence of denizens of higher planes is irrelevant to this. People tend to get upset when an orphanage in their town gets slaughtered. That's the sort of action that would bring angry heroes out of the woodwork. The wizard's party has to handle it, one way or another, one day or another. *slaps forehead* If you agree to what I have been saying all along, then why do you still support the celestial strike force? Or should I take this as a concession on your part that such a strike force is almost always unnecessary? Summoning beings to do tasks based on their alignment is a pretty safe bet. [...] Only when summoning intelligent and capable beings, then misusing them would you have to worry about the repercussions. That is a reasonable argument, although it essentially amounts to a concession that my original comment ("all summon spells are retro-actively exceedingly risky, and in fact more dangerous than Calling spells since you can always kill the Called creature") was, in fact, accurate. I don't understand what you're saying here. Bob kidnaps Jimmy and makes him perform atrocities, and it's not fitting in LG for Jimmy to want to flatten Bob before he hurts or kidnaps anyone else? Is that what you're trying to say? If so, Paladins must have a hard time in games you run. They can't track down and fight evil people who have the power and will to enslave good guys for the purpose of slaughtering children without breeching their LG nature and losing their powers? That is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that it makes little sense for LG celestials to hunt down Bob instead of the baby-eating king just because Bob summoned the LG celestials and the king did not. Is the king in the scenario I outlined in the previous post not committing greater evil than orphan-slaying? The possible counter-argument "well, the king is probably too powerful for four hound archons" is moot as I can (and did) present similar scenarios in which low-level characters commit the same or worse evils. The point is that your statement that LG outsiders only get involved with strike forces when they are summoned and "messed with" does not fit with the description of LG by any stretch of the imagination.
malignor 12-17-06, 01:18 PM	You seem to have missed the entire reason I have been arguing against a celestial strike force, considering you have just perfectly agreed to what I have been saying all along: celestial strikes forces are unnecessary. I said [as much] back on page 5 and this on page 6.Necessity is subjective. I believe you think it's unnecessary for metagame reasons. I declare it necessary for in-game reasons.In any event, I find it amusing you state one cannot " concepts from reality to adjudicate the holes in game mechanics" when, in fact, you state later in the same post [cause & effect of kidnapping & forcefully using for atrocities]You are resorting to taking my quote out of context (the "silence" was in regard to the summoned having memory of his/her actions while summoned) and refuting it based on that? I see a sign of desperation and faltering competence. Read your own quote to which I respond before assuming what the subject of my response was.Celestial Hawks of an Int score of 3, putting them in the "human-like" intelligence category. In any case, it remains to be seen the difference (in a scale of convoluted-ness) it is for a celestial hawk to make a Trumpet Archon aware of Bob the Evil Summoner and to take action versus a Hound Archon to do the same thing. A Hound Archon may be able to state his/her case better and be relatively independent once plane shifted or whatever, but the action of "hindering the forces of good, forcing a creature to act against its alignment, using good to commit vile deed, etcetera" still applies.You are losing the scope of my argument completely. I see the celestial response as a personal one ("He used me! I have to stop him before he uses me or my friends again!"), which could lead to an official one ("This wizard is using and abusing, and now slaying, my precious Archons, weakening Celestia and insulting its strength, all to commit vile acts of evil. Reggie, gather a squad of the faithful from Oerth and bring this miscreant to justice in my name. And bring a few of the Lantern Archons to light your way."[assuming CR-appropriate]). You seem to measure it in completely metagame terms as if it were official through and through.Moreover, I could turn the question around and ask how important Hound Archons are to the ranks of supernatural good. Are we basing it on CR? Intelligence? What?According to the Monster Manual, Archons are responsible for protecting the plane of Celestia (is not the kidnapping of Archons for evil uses an assault of the plane?), and consider themselves guardians of all that is innocent (like the many victims, past and future, of a known threat - Bob the wizard). They are also natural enemies of fiends. Thus even by RAW, Archons have reasons to go after Bob the summoner, fulfilling 2 out of 3 of the primary motivations for Archons. In contrast, Celestial beings are simply those that "Dwell on the upper planes". As for rank and specific role, that's dependent on what books you incorporate into the game. By core RAW, it's left open and up to the DM. I think it's fair to say that some random Eagle with an Int of 3 will have a hard time even remembering or describing what happened while summoned or where he was. His chances of convincing (let's call him Reggie) the Trumpet Archon to use his Plane Shift on a pointless wild goose chase, where the Eagle has no tracking ability, no teleportation ability, abysmal social skills and no divination. Furthermore, the Eagle is just another eagle on Celestia. To blow this out of proportion is ludicrous, as you'd be needing and using a proverbial bazooka (Reggie would have to do ALL the work, not just cast a single spell) to kill a cockroach (Bob the wizard). The Hound Archon can recall where he was with better accuracy, and needs only the means to get to the Prime (Plane Shift). The Hound Archon can also provide a much better case for Reggie to convince him that his assistance (in getting to the Prime) will indeed further the ideals of Celestia and bring an end to an evil which can (and has, and likely will again) violate Celestia again in the future.It takes 24 hours of the Hound Archons time if said Archon is slain. If not, it is instantly back wherever it was. I suggest [i]you "read up on summoning"touche.How is getting a Trumpet Archon to use their (typically prepared) one Plane Shift a day and multiple other Hound Archons to travel down to the Material Plane and hunt a single evil summoner not "inconvenient" or suddenly more important than the other problems "within arm's reach?" Would not any Hound Archon going through with this vendetta be considered selfish in doing so, considering the nature of the LG alignment and the nature of the larger war on evil (and evil outsiders, whom presumably are "within arms reach")?Bob the summoner has proven he's not a problem "over there, somewhere". Bob is a problem for Celestia itself, kidnapping its protectors, using the very guardians of good for evil means. Bob the summoner is an evil force that's right on their doorstep. Bob is an imminent threat to the well being of Celestials and thus to Celestia itself. Is this not true?Where did I presume "an encounter with an impossibly difficult group of good outsiders?" Further, exactly how am I "gravely misinterpreting" a celestial strike force? Has the suggested course of action not involved four CR 4 celestials along with the aid of a CR 14 celestial, all n retribution for the singular use of a 5th level spell? If anything, I think it is clear that divine retribution (in any form) in this scenario is "taking it to some unrealistic extreme."The plot evolved in-game (via the DM roleplaying the Archon NPCs) and the challenge presented to the players is designed in a metagame way (appropriate CR) so as to not ruin the game with a TPK. Thus, Reggie the trumpet Archon is just their taxi to the prime. Declaring that "the aid of a CR 14 celestial" is blowing Reggie's role out of proportion. Bob likely won't even see Reggie until at least level 12. Again, I ask you for the names and references of who said an overwhelming amount of celestial force is justified. If summons did interfere with the forces of good to the degree it has been suggested, then it follows that evil will be spending all its time summoning good creatures to battle each other. Considering that evil outsiders outnumber good outsides by some ridiculous ratio, then it further follows that good should have been defeated eons ago. [I ask you to explain how what I said] implies that I was saying evil outsiders were doing the summoning? I'll save you the trouble: it doesn't.And how else would "good be defeated eons ago"? The criteria for being evil alignment does not mention targeting Good Outsiders. The only natural enemies of Archons are Fiends (of whom many seem to be rather occupied with the Blood Wars, and most are turning against anyone, even their own kin). Evil arcanists are unimportant 3rd parties, except for individuals who prove themselves a sizable threat to Celestia and its people (like by kidnapping its protectors). So evil arcanists are not likely to be the ones forming an assault on Celestia. So who else would be doing all the summoning, if not the "rediculously" outnumbering hordes of Outsiders you seemed to include in the middle of your argument? You asked if I claimed otherwise. I did not, in fact, claim anything about the traditional role of outsiders, petitioners, powers of dieties, or anything at all related to the quoted paragraph. Nor, as I have stated, is any of that relevant to what we are discussing.How could it have been a strawman if it wasn't even an argument? Do you understand what a strawman fallacy is?The problem with your form of consistency revolves around the use of divine outsiders to mete out justice in person, usurping any form of natural justice. If evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky every time an orphan is slain, why is there so much evil in the world? Furthermore, if said divine justice is presumably in such great supply to justify the expedition to track down a single wizard, why haven't the celestial outsiders defeated the evil outsiders by now?See, now THAT is a strawman: "evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky every time an orphan is slain" Let me redo that quote without the fallacies, and with my own additions so you're speaking in my terms. "The problem with your form of consistency revolves around the use of divine outsiders to mete out justice in person, usurping in addition to any form of natural justice. If evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky eventually tracking them down every time an orphan is slain they prove themselves a threat to Celestials themselves, why is there so much evil in the world? Furthermore, if said divine justice is presumably in such great supply to justify the expedition to track down a single wizard by the Celestials already involved by the wizard himself, why haven't the celestial outsiders defeated the evil outsiders by now?" Note that I did not add anything absurd, or off-topic, or personally insulting. The default cosmology presents a beleaguered celestial vanguard barely hanging onto control versus a seemingly endless stream of evil forces. It is widely known that the Blood War is the only real reason that Evil (with a capital E) has not already laid waste to the multiverse. Unless you posit an alternate cosmology, which none have done thus far, it should be clear that celestial forces cannot possibly expend the resources to combat evil on the infinite Material Plane, let alone on other planes. That is why the celestial strike force is inconsistent. they can afford to lose them to Conjurers, but can't afford to risk them in the act of preventing loss from Conjurers? Suppose it were real kidnappers, hiding out in Celestia, grabbing Hound Archons from their posts, magically torturing them and letting them go (sometimes a few rounds later, sometimes a day later). Would the very same Celestials not care? If you agree to what I have been saying all along, then why do you still support the celestial strike force? Or should I take this as a concession on your part that such a strike force is almost always unnecessary?I bet Jimmy the summoned Archon himself thinks it's quite necessary. I also bet Jimmy's case is quite solid is claiming that Bob is a threat. A threat to good mortals, to innocent mortals, and to Celestials themselves. This is an argument based on in-game cause & effect. That is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that it makes little sense for LG celestials to hunt down Bob instead of the baby-eating king just because Bob summoned the LG celestials and the king did not. Is the king in the scenario I outlined in the previous post not committing greater evil than orphan-slaying? The possible counter-argument "well, the king is probably too powerful for four hound archons" is moot as I can (and did) present similar scenarios in which low-level characters commit the same or worse evils. The point is that your statement that LG outsiders only get involved with strike forces when they are summoned and "messed with" does not fit with the description of LG by any stretch of the imagination.Yes it does. LG is about protecting the good and innocent. Who better to protect the good and innocent against than the very person who has proven himself a threat to good and innocent, and even the protectors themselves? Going after Bob will prevent Jimmys siblings, friends and even his pet eagle from being summoned and abused by this vile slayer of the innocent. By going after Bob he protects the good, the innocent and his fellow protectors of the good & innocent. If the Archon happens to be near the baby-eating king at the time, you bet he'd act accordingly. Otherwise, since it's an evil purely involving the mortal world, mortals should handle it; give Jimmy the prayer-number of the nearest good priest, please.
redraven 12-17-06, 08:29 PM	Necessity is subjective. I believe you think it's unnecessary for metagame reasons. I declare it necessary for in-game reasons. Arguably, both arguments are based on metagame reasons considering that the Summon spells mention nothing at all similar to, say, Planar Binding (in which revenge is assumed by RAW). You are resorting to taking my quote out of context (the "silence" was in regard to the summoned having memory of his/her actions while summoned) and refuting it based on that? I see a sign of desperation and faltering competence. Read your own quote to which I respond before assuming what the subject of my response was. The post of mine that was quoted included more than just the question of what the summoned creature remembers. For reference: "The summon monster spells do not mention anything at all about what the summon remembers, that the summon can later track down the summoner (or even that such a danger exists), or anything remotely analogous." Since you did not indicate you were responding to just the remembering portion, I have to assume you were referring to the entire thing - which included the actions of what the archon would do. [celestial hawk abuse] The entire reason I brought up the hawk scenario is for philosophical reasons: that the summoner was abusing the forces of good, etc., as it has been used to justify the hound archon excursion. It is probably irrelevant to the debate at hand, so I am willing to retract it. According to the Monster Manual, Archons are responsible for protecting the plane of Celestia (is not the kidnapping of Archons for evil uses an assault of the plane?), and consider themselves guardians of all that is innocent (like the many victims, past and future, of a known threat - Bob the wizard). They are also natural enemies of fiends. Thus even by RAW, Archons have reasons to go after Bob the summoner, fulfilling 2 out of 3 of the primary motivations for Archons. 1) No. There is nothing at all consistent with Summoning spells being the same thing as "kidnapping" or an "assault on the plane." Planar Binding? Absolutely. 2) & 3) Okay. Your conclusion does not follow from the above premises, even if 1) was correct. It presumes being allowed to leave Celestia on a vendetta mission, having access to a Trumpet Archon (Reggie), Reggie having an open Planar Shift slot, and convincing Reggie that Bob is enough of a threat to justify the expenditure. Assuming everything works, Jimmy and his buddies now have to contend with the fact that Jimmy has a 25% of botching the teleport considering he has only (presumably) seen the Orphanage once. Jimmy's buddies? They cannot use Teleport to get there at all, unless they somehow gain access to Scrying/Clairvoyance spells. Bob the summoner has proven he's not a problem "over there, somewhere". Bob is a problem for Celestia itself, kidnapping its protectors, using the very guardians of good for evil means. Bob the summoner is an evil force that's right on their doorstep. Bob is an imminent threat to the well being of Celestials and thus to Celestia itself. Is this not true? If you are asking my opinion here, the answer is no. Bob is not attempting to weaken the forces of Celestia, kill celestials, or otherwise trying to assault the forces of good directly. If Bob wanted to do the above, he would be using Lesser Planar Binding (which is also a 5th level spell, so he should have access). The plot evolved in-game (via the DM roleplaying the Archon NPCs) and the challenge presented to the players is designed in a metagame way (appropriate CR) so as to not ruin the game with a TPK. Thus, Reggie the trumpet Archon is just their taxi to the prime. Declaring that "the aid of a CR 14 celestial" is blowing Reggie's role out of proportion. Bob likely won't even see Reggie until at least level 12. Again, I ask you for the names and references of who said an overwhelming amount of celestial force is justified. Reggie's role is not being blown out of proportion, as the strike force scenario is entirely dependent on his/her aid. Without Reggie, Jimmy gets to take out his frustration on the fiends attempting to assault Celestia, rather than an expedition to the Prime. As for your second question, again, who said anything about an overwhelming amount of celestials? I certainly did not suggest anything of the sort. So unless you are willing to elaborate on why you keep bringing this up, I am forced to assume you are doing so merely to present another Red Herring. And how else would "good be defeated eons ago"? The criteria for being evil alignment does not mention targeting Good Outsiders. The only natural enemies of Archons are Fiends (of whom many seem to be rather occupied with the Blood Wars, and most are turning against anyone, even their own kin). Evil arcanists are unimportant 3rd parties, except for individuals who prove themselves a sizable threat to Celestia and its people (like by kidnapping its protectors). So evil arcanists are not likely to be the ones forming an assault on Celestia. So who else would be doing all the summoning, if not the "rediculously" outnumbering hordes of Outsiders you seemed to include in the middle of your argument? I am going to submit a few premises that should be readily acceptable considering you (and others) have already indicated you agree with most of them. If you have an issue with one or more of them, please let me know. Demons and Devils have the annihilation of Good high up on their priority list (not necessary #1, but at least in the top five). Summoning spells interfere with the forces of Good in an not-insignificant fashion. Demons and Devils outnumber the forces of Good by an extremely high ratio. The Blood War is the only thing preventing Evil from taking over the mutliverse (supported by RAW in the latest Fiendish Codex book). Demons and Devils can (and do often) corrupt mortals into aiding the cause of Evil. Now, let us take a look back on my whole argument on this subject: And if summoning random hound archons is going to have a long-term (or even short-term) effect on the forces of the good, why haven't the demons/devils corrupted wizards into casting these spells as often as humanly possible? [...] If summons did interfere with the forces of good to the degree it has been suggested, then it follows that evil will be spending all its time summoning good creatures to battle each other. Considering that evil outsiders outnumber good outsides by some ridiculous ratio, then it further follows that good should have been defeated eons ago. Does the above not follow? To put it another way, if Bob by himself is such a threat to Celestia to warrant an expedition to the Prime to attempt to slay him over a single casting of Summon Monster V, would not Bob and, say, nine of his buddies be an even greater drain on Celestia's resources? How about an entire arcane academy ran by a Devil (the only outsider present), that employs its 150 arcanists to use Summoning spells every single day, and being sure to slay the summoned celestials so as to take them out of commission for 24 hours? Now, would it be a stretch to multiple this one arcane academy by, say, a thousand given the infinite nature of the Material Plane (not to mention the other planes)? My point is that I do not think Summon Monster spells materially impact either the forces of Good or Evil to any discernible degree. If they did, the forces of Good are in trouble considering they are already outnumbered and there probably are no LG/NG/CG arcane casters summoning demons or devils via Summon Monster spells. How could it have been a strawman if it wasn't even an argument? Do you understand what a strawman fallacy is? You are correct. It would be better described as a Red Herring. See, now THAT is a strawman: "evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky every time an orphan is slain" There is little difference between "popping out of the sky" and getting Plane Shifted and Teleported to the scene of the crime, aside from semantics. Let me redo that quote without the fallacies, and with my own additions so you're speaking in my terms. "The problem with your form of consistency revolves around the use of divine outsiders to mete out justice in person, usurping in addition to any form of natural justice. If evil mortals can expect angels and archons popping out of the sky eventually tracking them down every time an orphan is slain they prove themselves a threat to Celestials themselves, why is there so much evil in the world? Furthermore, if said divine justice is presumably in such great supply to justify the expedition to track down a single wizard by the Celestials already involved by the wizard himself, why haven't the celestial outsiders defeated the evil outsiders by now?" That's fine, I welcome more clarification on your part in this thread. Unfortunately, you never bothered to answer the two questions I presented in that paragraph. they can afford to lose them to Conjurers, but can't afford to risk them in the act of preventing loss from Conjurers? Suppose it were real kidnappers, hiding out in Celestia, grabbing Hound Archons from their posts, magically torturing them and letting them go (sometimes a few rounds later, sometimes a day later). Would the very same Celestials not care? The hound archons are "lost" for between 1-2 minutes or 24 hours if killed. In any case, the archons are returned with no damage or expenditure of resources aside from time. Further, let me repeat myself now for the third time: If the goal is to increase campaign verisimilitude, sending strike squads over one summoning spell is not the way to do it. Even multiple summonings should not qualify given the atrocities committed on a planar scale every day of the week. If Bob the Evil Summoner only committed evil by using a celestial summon spell, maybe that could grab some attention, or any evil character generally above 15th level. Let me remind you, again, that the original scenario which prompted this entire discussion involved A SINGLE CASTING of Summon Monster V to do evil. All of my posts have been dealing with the absurdity of sending a strike force over a single casting, and I have made it clear to the best of my ability that habitually summoning hound archons (or whatever) for evil purposes presents a different scenario altogether. The second case of evil kidnappers actually hiding out on Celestia is not analogous to the original scenario by any stretch of the imagination. I have no clue what makes you think they are similar at all. If evil creatures are committing evil deeds while on the plane of Celestia itself, it absolutely would make sense (and be easy) for the protectors of said plane to teleport over and deal with the issue. Material Plane summonings is not at all analogous. I bet Jimmy the summoned Archon himself thinks it's quite necessary. I also bet Jimmy's case is quite solid is claiming that Bob is a threat. A threat to good mortals, to innocent mortals, and to Celestials themselves. This is an argument based on in-game cause & effect. Whether Bob is a threat is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether a divine strike force is necessary to be dispatched to the Prime Material to deal with the threat - something that is not at all clear.
Manic Man 12-18-06, 04:25 AM	So if i disguise myself as Elminister and commit crimes like these, Elminister will get obliterated by totally revenge minded celestials which will be unceasing and keep arriving in waves?? Cool! Time to loot his tower after its done! :evillaugh
CrazyMarv 12-18-06, 12:31 PM	So if i disguise myself as Elminister and commit crimes like these, Elminister will get obliterated by totally revenge minded celestials which will be unceasing and keep arriving in waves?? Cool! Time to loot his tower after its done! :evillaugh HA! Sweet.....this is the perfect way to off anyone! Good thing Archons are so dumb they don't realize the concept of framing someone...especially in a world with magic and shapeshifting. If I were running the game where the player did this, I'd let him summon the Archon, the orphans would die, and the spell would end. Then I'd progress to the next part of the adventure and on with the game. There's not really any reason to go off track by having a bunch of Archons start looking for him unless that is what he intended for some reason. It would just slow things down for the entire game. If you really needed some reason to explain it away, just houserule that the guy doesn't remember what happens when he's summoned and get on with you frickin' life.
chucky 12-18-06, 12:40 PM	Hmm elminster is one of mystras favorite humans. And the disguise would work for a whole zero seconds. The first thing that would be done is the god who owned the hound archon would relay what information it had to its high priest/favorite on the planet in question. The person contacted would then determine the severity of the situation and deal with it accordingly. Aka if you summon one that works for mystra. As soon as she finds out. The chosen of mystra will be told of this evil bastard and what he is doing. They will send it along through the harpers and hired mercenaries, pc's, that this person is wanted dead or dead preferably very dead. If the evil caster kills all the people sent after him and the chosen are not able to kill him then the portals would start opening and the armies would start rolling through. It would not be a instant retribution. Unless you ****** off a greater god of magic/infomation or a over power they cant instanly find you. If you somehow found a way to **** off a over power, well if your lucky, people will remember that you existed. The caster in question would have to be extreemly stupid or psychotic to do it though. The last thing you want as a caster is to make enemies of a faction of the outer planes. Someday you will probably want to be able to go there without being killed on sight. You can be as evil as you want but there are things you just dont do if you want to live to epiv lvl.
CrazyMarv 12-18-06, 01:00 PM	Hmm elminster is one of mystras favorite humans. And the disguise would work for a whole zero seconds. The first thing that would be done is the god who owned the hound archon would relay what information it had to its high priest/favorite on the planet in question. The person contacted would then determine the severity of the situation and deal with it accordingly. Aka if you summon one that works for mystra. As soon as she finds out. The chosen of mystra will be told of this evil bastard and what he is doing. They will send it along through the harpers and hired mercenaries, pc's, that this person is wanted dead or dead preferably very dead. If the evil caster kills all the people sent after him and the chosen are not able to kill him then the portals would start opening and the armies would start rolling through. It would not be a instant retribution. Unless you ****** off a greater god of magic/infomation or a over power they cant instanly find you. If you somehow found a way to **** off a over power, well if your lucky, people will remember that you existed. The caster in question would have to be extreemly stupid or psychotic to do it though. The last thing you want as a caster is to make enemies of a faction of the outer planes. Someday you will probably want to be able to go there without being killed on sight. You can be as evil as you want but there are things you just dont do if you want to live to epiv lvl. I don't think he meant it to be practical, I think it was something of a joke. The idea that the Archons would find the guy based on what he looked like and never stop until he was dead for what he did is kind of silly, especially when you could dress up like someone and do it.
malignor 12-18-06, 02:30 PM	Arguably, both arguments are based on metagame reasons considering that the Summon spells mention nothing at all similar to, say, Planar Binding (in which revenge is assumed by RAW).That's a weak concept of "metagame reasons". Keep in mind, I'm arguing based on the following assumptions (which I do not necessarily say are "the way it is", but are certainly viable rulings which RAW does not contradict): - The Archon, after the summoning, is fully aware and/or remembers what his aspect did and remembers the place he was summoned to (has a mental image of it). [to be honest, The wording of summons suggests the possibility that the aspect is not the original creature, who sits in non-existence while the summoned aspect is active] - The Archon's constant Magic Circle against Evil does not prevent control from the evil summoner. [this is arguable both ways, and may depend on the previous assumption] - The Archon guesses or knows (or can easily find out) the plane of existence where he was summoned. [likely the Prime] - The Archon has available means to get to that plane. [can convince a Trumpet Archon or anyone else who can Plane Shift] - The Archon is not currently obligated to other tasks for some extended period of time. [though what could be so important that it can be handled by a CR 4 outsider? why is it so much more important than a hound-archon stealing babykiller?] Again, I say that these are required for a Hound Archon re-encounter, but they may not necessarily be true. It's really up to the DM. That being the case, I have to ask: Why do you argue so vehemently against an idea or suggestion? Is there something wrong with offering possible campaign ideas, which have less bearing on the enjoyment of a game than the particular DM's ability to pull it off? How dare I share some creativity on a public forum - shame on me.The post of mine that was quoted included more than just ...[snip]... what the archon would do.Semantics. You misunderstood me, I misunderstood you. It's the curse of using human language. Moving on.The entire reason I brought up the hawk scenario ...[snip]... I am willing to retract it.Solid. Onward.1) No. There is nothing at all consistent with Summoning spells being the same thing as "kidnapping" or an "assault on the plane." Planar Binding? Absolutely. 2) & 3) Okay.The summoned being vanishes from their home plane and appears to do the summoners bidding for a time. They are not willing. They may go missing for as little as (just under) a minute or they may be lost for a day. Missing. Taken somewhere else. Unwillingly. Despite any current oaths, pressing matters or obligations. Despite consequences. From aliens. How do you define kidnapping? How do you define an attack on a community, if not kidnapping its guardians?Your conclusion does not follow from the above premises, even if 1) was correct. It presumes being allowed to leave Celestia on a vendetta mission, having access to a Trumpet Archon (Reggie), Reggie having an open Planar Shift slot, and convincing Reggie that Bob is enough of a threat to justify the expenditure. Assuming everything works, Jimmy and his buddies now have to contend with the fact that Jimmy has a 25% of botching the teleport considering he has only (presumably) seen the Orphanage once. Jimmy's buddies? They cannot use Teleport to get there at all, unless they somehow gain access to Scrying/Clairvoyance spells.I believe you are mistaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) If you are asking my opinion here, the answer is no. Bob is not attempting to weaken the forces of Celestia, kill celestials, or otherwise trying to assault the forces of good directly. If Bob wanted to do the above, he would be using Lesser Planar Binding (which is also a 5th level spell, so he should have access).Who says anything about intent? Bob's harming Celestia and kidnapping & abusing its guardians as a means to his own agenda. Again, I ask you, is Bob not, by his very actions (despite his reasons), a threat to Archons (and thus Celestia)?Reggie's role is not being blown out of proportion, as the strike force scenario is entirely dependent on his/her aid. Without Reggie, Jimmy gets to take out his frustration on the fiends attempting to assault Celestia, rather than an expedition to the Prime.Great. Next time a Krynn Dragonlord gets a lift from his steed to some random location on the same plane of existence, I'll remember to give out the XP for the dragon to the players who never even met it, but beat the dragonlord anyway. If you never meet Reggie (who wasted a whole 5th level slot and a few minutes of his time at most), and Reggie never even sets foot on your continent or even knows who you are beyond being the faceless enemy of his friend, and his only action is to Plane shift some allies to another plane of existence, his role is not terribly significant. I am going to submit a few premises that should be readily acceptable considering you (and others) have already indicated you agree with most of them. If you have an issue with one or more of them, please let me know. Demons and Devils have the annihilation of Good high up on their priority list (not necessary #1, but at least in the top five). Summoning spells interfere with the forces of Good in an not-insignificant fashion. Demons and Devils outnumber the forces of Good by an extremely high ratio. The Blood War is the only thing preventing Evil from taking over the mutliverse (supported by RAW in the latest Fiendish Codex book). Demons and Devils can (and do often) corrupt mortals into aiding the cause of Evil. Uncertain, but let's just say the top 10. agreed. There's alot more going on than the Blood War. The hordes of the lower planes also have alot of infighting and personal agendas they're pursuing. Using mortals for their own personal gain or pleasure, as well as backstabbing each other to gain power, and other things. Even most demon lords seem more preoccupied with their own survival and personal gain to care about Celestia. Agreed.Now, let us take a look back on my whole argument on this subject: Does the above not follow? To put it another way, if Bob by himself is such a threat to Celestia to warrant an expedition to the Prime to attempt to slay him over a single casting of Summon Monster V, would not Bob and, say, nine of his buddies be an even greater drain on Celestia's resources? How about an entire arcane academy ran by a Devil (the only outsider present), that employs its 150 arcanists to use Summoning spells every single day, and being sure to slay the summoned celestials so as to take them out of commission for 24 hours? Now, would it be a stretch to multiple this one arcane academy by, say, a thousand given the infinite nature of the Material Plane (not to mention the other planes)?All the more reason to nip the problem in the bud. Aside from that, I've mentioned a few times that 1-3 lesser Archons (Jimmy and his close friends/family, which are not much of a threat to a party of 9th level characters) would likely gather up mortal forces of good to aid in their cause (to get the CR to something worthwhile, metagame speaking). Paladins and Clerics and Monks (oh my!), which would be eager to bring such a vile baby-killer to justice, are the first things that come to mind, since they would be among the mortal agents of Celestial concerns. As a DM, I'd try to keep Jimmy from dying, preferring instead to preserve the lives (mortal and immortal) he brings into this mess. I think Jimmy's party of "holy rollers" would make a great reoccurring NPC encounter of arch-enemies, showing up every 5 or 6 game sessions, levelling up as the PCs do, replacing those members who fall by the PCs' hand.My point is that I do not think Summon Monster spells materially impact either the forces of Good or Evil to any discernible degree. If they did, the forces of Good are in trouble considering they are already outnumbered and there probably are no LG/NG/CG arcane casters summoning demons or devils via Summon Monster spells.It matters to the individual being summoned. It would also matter to that individual's friends and family. It would also matter to those to whom the individual is obligated, since they went AWOL from the summons. NPCs are not robots without emotion or personal ties (unless that's how you DM, in which case I'm sorry). What affects one person affects their community in some way, especially if that affect is traumatic. That's the basis for my reasoning behind Jimmy's response, and it's a purely in-character NPC motivation. There is little difference between "popping out of the sky" and getting Plane Shifted and Teleported to the scene of the crime, aside from semantics."Popping out of the sky" suggests immediate results (which I do not advocate), contrived consequences (which I do not advocate), and the general idea of "the giant golden thumb of the almighty DM" which I find insulting. When things happen in my game, they happen in-game, in-character.That's fine, I welcome more clarification on your part in this thread. Unfortunately, you never bothered to answer the two questions I presented in that [modified] paragraph: "The problem with your form of consistency revolves around the use of divine outsiders to mete out justice in person, in addition to any form of natural justice. If evil mortals can expect angels and archons eventually tracking them down every time they prove themselves a threat to Celestials themselves, why is there so much evil in the world? Furthermore, if said divine justice is presumably in such great supply to justify the expedition to track down a single wizard by the Celestials already involved by the wizard himself, why haven't the celestial outsiders defeated the evil outsiders by now?"Evil still exists in the mortal world because not all evils in the world are known, imminent threats to Celestia, and because there are many threats to Celestia from other places as well. The choice as to which threats require attention depends on the level of the threat, as well as the ability to handle it. A 9th level party that is able to be located in a reasonable amount of time is able to be handled. That 9th level party has a member who has proven he can and does abuse the very agents of Celestia for evil means to personal goals and can do so remotely, from anywhere, at any time. Doable if acted on quickly, and a proven threat; worth the attention.Let me repeat myself now for the third time: Let me remind you, again, that the original scenario which prompted this entire discussion involved A SINGLE CASTING of Summon Monster V to do evil. All of my posts have been dealing with the absurdity of sending a strike force over a single casting, and I have made it clear to the best of my ability that habitually summoning hound archons (or whatever) for evil purposes presents a different scenario altogether.So a first offense, no matter how vile and repeatable, can be ignored, by beings who personify Lawful Good... I have my doubts.The second case of evil kidnappers actually hiding out on Celestia is not analogous to the original scenario by any stretch of the imagination. I have no clue what makes you think they are similar at all. If evil creatures are committing evil deeds while on the plane of Celestia itself, it absolutely would make sense (and be easy) for the protectors of said plane to teleport over and deal with the issue. Material Plane summonings is not at all analogous.Material summonings are worse, because they're doing the same thing remotely, from anyplace, at any time, and it's very difficult to trace.Whether Bob is a threat is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether a divine strike force is necessary to be dispatched to the Prime Material to deal with the threat - something that is not at all clear.Only the Hound Archon summoned can be sure to have the means to track down the perpetrator. As a victim and witness who can teleport (with absolute precision) to the crime scene, as well as a skilled tracker with the scent ability, Jimmy is likely the only one who can catch Bob, especially if Bob was sneaky about things. If Bob teleported away, Jimmy still has a job to do, and going to the nearest temple and asking for help ("Father O'mally, can you scry on this Bob fellow? He is a vile slayer of children and manipulator of angels themselves. I will describe him and his party...") is an option as well. Greater Teleport, plus tracking, plus scent, plus being an agent of the heavens, can go a long way.
Nephlite 12-18-06, 02:59 PM	All the more reason to nip the problem in the bud. Aside from that, I've mentioned a few times that 1-3 lesser Archons (Jimmy and his close friends/family, which are not much of a threat to a party of 9th level characters) would likely gather up mortal forces of good to aid in their cause (to get the CR to something worthwhile, metagame speaking). Paladins and Clerics and Monks (oh my!), which would be eager to bring such a vile baby-killer to justice, are the first things that come to mind, since they would be among the mortal agents of Celestial concerns. Only good classes would be eager. Monks are usually LN, they would care less unless endangered (or friends endangered) as usual for nuetral. Clerics depending on God, ideals, or alignment might. Paladins might: funny if pal uses smite evil but Caster still hasn't turned evil so it fails. Remember one evil act does not a good to evil. Neutral after two maybe.
malignor 12-18-06, 03:45 PM	Only good classes would be eager. Monks are usually LN, they would care less unless endangered (or friends endangered) as usual for nuetral. Clerics depending on God, ideals, or alignment might. Paladins might: funny if pal uses smite evil but Caster still hasn't turned evil so it fails. Remember one evil act does not a good to evil. Neutral after two maybe.You misunderstand me, perhaps because I was not more clear. Add the word "sympathetic" or "like-minded" (implying good, lawful, etc.) in front of the list of 3 classes. Helpful?
archcomponent 12-18-06, 04:31 PM	So a first offense, no matter how vile and repeatable, can be ignored, by beings who personify Lawful Good... I have my doubts. Exactly! The caster in question is a vile scourge, capable of abducting paragons of good and enslaving them to slaughter innocents. Are we to imagine that the celestial forces would suffer this caster and his horrific evil? The idea that the very embodiments of good would sit back and abide this makes no sense. Such an act screams for justice, and they will deliver it. We are not even talking about something that is anywhere near beyond their means. Plus, it makes perfect sense for a few celestials to take leave. Such a summoner will likely steal more time from the forces of good in a manner not under their control over the course of his lifetime, and probably more powerful archons and celestials as he increases in power. The outsiders are not stupid, they would not take this to be a "one time thing." From his actions - and yes, from the first time out - they know that this vile summoner will occupy the time of celestial beings. But since they are not stupid, they will clearly see it better for that time to be under their control and focused towards ending the lifetime of this vile threat. What sort of simpleton would we have this hound archon be to think that a caster of such power (summoning in particular) and maliciousness would thereafter not further steal the time of celestial beings for his twisted ends?
sigea 12-18-06, 05:50 PM	Redraven, apologise for my simple view of things but can you explain the following. Let's assume a demon lord is Hitler, Let's also assume that Bob the wizard is a foot soldier in the Nazi's. Now lets assume Jimmy the hound archon is an allied soldier. now if bob the wizard captured jimmy the hound archon, forced him to kill innocent people (maybe his own family)in slave camps, commit other horrible attrocities and then Jimmy happened to escape, what do you think Jimmy would do and to who - hitler or the foot soldier? I mean one cruel act by a foot soldier is nothing to get upset about right? Now take a step back, Jimmy has never been forced to commit the acts above, but unfortunately has had to witness bob the wizards lowly foot soldier take gleeful joy in doing so. Jimmy the allied soldier comes face to face with bob on the battlefield but knows that somewhere out the back, hidden in a bunker is Hitler. Do you think Jimmy will just walk past bob because there are "bigger fish to fry". I mean think about it, all Jimmy has to do is ignore EVERYBODY else on the battlefield, walk up to hitler and his guard and kill him, simple as that right?
Keenath 12-18-06, 07:06 PM	If I were DMing such a situation, I'd just fudge the bit about "to the best of its ability" and have him make nonlethal attacks. After all, the archon doesn't necessarily know what's going on; the "orphans" could be evil horrors in disguise, or the summoner could be dominated, or any number of other issues. In general, the monster does as he's told. If the player is doing something extreme like that (and yes, thank you, that DOES involve me using my own DMly opinion), the monster just does his best to follow orders without actually violating his alignment. To go the other direction, as somebody mentioned -- if you summon a glabrezu to babysit the kids, he's going to take absolutely perfect care of them. "Come here, children. Today we're going to learn about blood sacrifice!" Corrupting innocent mortals is what fiends are all about! There's almost always an option to avoid totally contradicting alignment, but sometimes you have to ignore some of the general rules for a specific situation. (In this case, the "fights to the best of his ability" thing.)
Tolby 12-18-06, 09:37 PM	Just to wiegh in on the whole celestial raiding party thing. I think this being an exploit of Summon monster V is not relevant. The fact that the Wiz is 9th level is not a factor. These are all meta-game aspects. The celetials see a summon using hound archons to slaughter orphans is VERY bad and VERY evil. There is a big difference between a 15th C.E. Orc who is cheating at cards and someone who is killing orphans (summoned archon or otherwise). The level and CR are irrelevant its the act that counts.
Nezkrul 12-18-06, 10:51 PM	I wonder if anyone has actually popped this question yet: Malignor (and everyone that completely agrees with) him, have you even read, cover to cover, the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Book of Vile Darkness?? I have, and I can tell; if you say yes, then you don't care about the wealth of information stored within both and simply have a thing against bad guys. If you say no, please, for the love of these forums, read the books slowly, carefully, and cover to cover. Don't just read one, read both please. Yes its upto the DM what would happen to the summoner, if anything at all. But making something happen begs you to answer every point red raven made about your campaign. It is not viable via RAW to say that the summons will remeber everything it did, as this is simply not written anywhere in the rules. bad malignor.
sigea 12-18-06, 11:16 PM	Nezkrul, Unfortunately, some of us have jobs and other activities that eat into our time to read all WoTC products cover to cover and slowly. And for those of us who don't have the time or the resource to purchase these books, would you care to explain why that would make a difference? All my judgements have been based on the summon monster spell being used to summon a celestial creature for evil purposes. I don't see how either of these books will change my judgement on deliberately summoning an intelligent creature from the heaven to do the will of evil unless there is something in the spell description that we have erronously missed, which from all the argument so far, we haven't. It's not a thing against bad guys, Most DM's are the bad guy, it's about bad guy's being responsible for there actions.I f anything the opposing arguments seem to suggest that evil guys can do whatever they feel whenever they feel without repurcussions for their actions but the good guy gets screwed over any time he steps outside his alignment.
redraven 12-18-06, 11:30 PM	Keep in mind, I'm arguing based on the following assumptions (which I do not necessarily say are "the way it is", but are certainly viable rulings which RAW does not contradict): - The Archon, after the summoning, is fully aware and/or remembers what his aspect did and remembers the place he was summoned to (has a mental image of it). [to be honest, The wording of summons suggests the possibility that the aspect is not the original creature, who sits in non-existence while the summoned aspect is active] - The Archon's constant Magic Circle against Evil does not prevent control from the evil summoner. [this is arguable both ways, and may depend on the previous assumption] - The Archon guesses or knows (or can easily find out) the plane of existence where he was summoned. [likely the Prime] - The Archon has available means to get to that plane. [can convince a Trumpet Archon or anyone else who can Plane Shift] - The Archon is not currently obligated to other tasks for some extended period of time. [though what could be so important that it can be handled by a CR 4 outsider? why is it so much more important than a hound-archon stealing babykiller?] Again, I say that these are required for a Hound Archon re-encounter, but they may not necessarily be true. It's really up to the DM. 1) While this has been a consistent consensus thus far, based on a comment on page two that Complete Arcane mentions summons with memories somewhere, after going through Complete Arcane and finding nothing on the subject, I am beginning to have my doubts. Indeed, in the Conjurer section (pg. 166) it mentions that most specialist Conjurers live isolated lives, and when funds get low they "often simply summon creature to fetch treasure for them." While it is certainly ambiguous as to what kind of creature is summoned to fetch treasure, it certainly seems to be consistent with a flippant attitude regarding summoned creatures. One would think that if revenge was a normal part of summoning (intelligent) outsiders, this section would mention something about it. 2) Indeed. I should note that the "mind control" portion of Protection from X/Magic Circle Against X works regardless of alignment, so it stands to reason that even a LG cleric would need to convince the the hound archon to do what it says, if the "mind control" prevention of said spell was relevant. 3) DM fiat, most likely. Summoning spells work everywhere, and the Prime Material Plane is only one of a supposedly infinite Material Planes/dimensions/whatever (hence the "Prime" designation). Even in cosmologies with a single Material Plane, it bears mentioning that the Hound Archon was present for, at most, 1-2 minutes (or even less). It still qualifies for the "Viewed Once" option on Teleport, but determining the plane to which it was summoned requires even more outside resources to determine. Divination (4th-level spell) is probably the first first piece of magic that could possibly determine the correct plane, followed by Commune (5th-level) for more definite information. 4) DM fiat, again. You have stated before that convincing the Trumpet Archon is NPC-roleplaying, but that is not entirely accurate as it already presumes cooperation/sanction of the strike force. Trumpet Archons are CR 14 creatures, and you note in the next issue, Hound Archons are small fry in Celestia. Evil is everywhere, and convincing a being more than three times as mighty as oneself should not be a sure bet, especially they are not exactly sitting around waiting to send rank and file troops to their doom. 5) This isn't much of a premise, considering that if taken to be true, it means that practically none of the Hound Archons should be sitting around Celestia on guard duty. It follows that the Hound Archons are already on some task on some other plane, which means they all have long-term obligations (guard duty or task). That being the case, I have to ask: Why do you argue so vehemently against an idea or suggestion? Is there something wrong with offering possible campaign ideas, which have less bearing on the enjoyment of a game than the particular DM's ability to pull it off? How dare I share some creativity on a public forum - shame on me. Straw man. I am not arguing against "an idea or suggestion" (in general). I am arguing against this idea and this suggestion. But you are right, how dare I offer criticism or differing points of view on a discussion board. :rolleyes: The summoned being vanishes from their home plane and appears to do the summoners bidding for a time. They are not willing. They may go missing for as little as (just under) a minute or they may be lost for a day. Missing. Taken somewhere else. Unwillingly. Despite any current oaths, pressing matters or obligations. Despite consequences. From aliens. How do you define kidnapping? How do you define an attack on a community, if not kidnapping its guardians? By your explanation, a LG cleric summoning Jimmy to defend the children from Bob the Evil Wizard constitutes kidnapping, and should have the appropriate consequences. Vanishing from home plane? Check. Unwillingly summoned? Check. Missing for minutes or days? Check. Summoned regardless of current oaths, matters or obligations? Check. Despite consequences? Check. It really matters not why Jimmy was summoned or if he later enjoyed what he did - it still is classified as kidnapping by your own definition. Planar Binding = kidnapping. Summon Monster =! kidnapping. I believe you are mistaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) Indeed. I read the "Teleport (Su):" on the SRD Archon entry without seeing the "greater teleport" later on. My apologizes. Of course, as with above, what constitutes "a reliable description" remains to be seen. If the orphanage was nondescript or had no defining characteristics beyond a bunch of beds, maybe dead orphans laying around (depending on how long had passed), it becomes up to the DM as to whether that would be enough - especially if the hound archon had no idea what city it was in or other landmarks. "20x20 foot wooden room, 18 beds, 6 windows" can theoretically describe any number of infinite buildings on the infinite Material Plane. Who says anything about intent? Bob's harming Celestia and kidnapping & abusing its guardians as a means to his own agenda. Again, I ask you, is Bob not, by his very actions (despite his reasons), a threat to Archons (and thus Celestia)? I said something about intent, as the question was directed toward my opinion on the matter, rather than addressing a specific argument I have made. The "harm" that Bob is causing Celestia is far from substantiated by anything more than personal feelings on the matter. Bob is not harming Celestia as a means to an end - Bob is using Summon Monster V as a means to an end, and Celestia just so happens to be "harmed" (if it is at all, in any measurable capacity) because a hound archon was chosen rather than bearded devil. I have already pointed this out, for I believe the fourth time: Bob's intent (and future actions) is entirely relevant in determining whether this was an attack on Celestia. It may not matter for Jimmy, but it should matter for Reggie or any of the greater beings Jimmy is beseeching assistance from. There are countless numbers of evil summoners across the Material and other planes. There are not countless numbers of evil summoners specifically attempting to weaken and attack Celestia itself. Great. Next time a Krynn Dragonlord gets a lift from his steed to some random location on the same plane of existence, I'll remember to give out the XP for the dragon to the players who never even met it, but beat the dragonlord anyway. Another straw man. Who said anything about giving out extra XP? The Trumpet Archon was not a challenge that was overcome when/if the hound archon strike force was dealt with. Be that as it may, downplaying Reggie's role in setting things into motion (indeed, the only thing setting things into motion considering the hound archons cannot get to the Material Plane by themselves) is not terribly consistent or even realistic. There's alot more going on than the Blood War. The hordes of the lower planes also have alot of infighting and personal agendas they're pursuing. Using mortals for their own personal gain or pleasure, as well as backstabbing each other to gain power, and other things. Even most demon lords seem more preoccupied with their own survival and personal gain to care about Celestia. Here is an except from the Fiendish Codex II: As overblown as such dreams might be, Asmodeus understands what the lawful deities of other planes refuse to acknowledge -- that the Blood War is not just an intramural scrap between different varieties of evil. In fact, without the devils' service in this conflict, the tanar'ri would quickly overwhelm all the Outer Planes and decisively win the cosmic battle for the side of chaos. After destroying the rest of existence, they would devour each other, and that would be the end of things. This is about as RAW as determining that summons remember what they do while summoned. All the more reason to nip the problem in the bud. [...] You seem to have missed my point. The point is that Bob cannot possibly be that great a threat to Celestia without the consistency and verisimilitude of campaign being destroyed. Thus far, you have argued for logical consequences and the like. Ruling that Bob is worth an expenditure of Celestia's limited resources, and accepting my premises above, leads to the conclusion that the heavenly realms would have been defeated eons ago, as I have already stated. If one does not DM a purely logical/consistent cosmology, that's fine - games can be ruled by DM fiat, Rule Zero, and such all day long. But practically speaking, it is really no different than saying "Rocks fall, everyone dies" whenever a PC does something bad. It matters to the individual being summoned. It would also matter to that individual's friends and family. It would also matter to those to whom the individual is obligated, since they went AWOL from the summons. NPCs are not robots without emotion or personal ties (unless that's how you DM, in which case I'm sorry). What affects one person affects their community in some way, especially if that affect is traumatic. That's the basis for my reasoning behind Jimmy's response, and it's a purely in-character NPC motivation. I do not run NPCs as robots without emotion or personal ties. However, I do run spell effects as spell effects. A summoned creature is a spell effect. A Called creature (via Planar Binding, Planar Ally, etc) is not a spell effect and can seek revenge by RAW. As far as the "purely in-character NPC motivation" claim goes, that's DM fiat. It seems logical to say that Hound Archons are aware of their station in life as being on the Summon Monster V list (and arguably the best creature to summon on that list, in most circumstances). An alternate "in-character" rationalization would be for Jimmy to redouble his efforts on Celestia to hunt down fiends (etc) so as to eventually be able to clean up the Material plane once his primary mission is finished. Or maybe Jimmy is a recluse with no friends or family. Or whatever. As it is entirely DM fiat, it remains fairly unconvincing. "Popping out of the sky" suggests immediate results (which I do not advocate), contrived consequences (which I do not advocate), and the general idea of "the giant golden thumb of the almighty DM" which I find insulting. When things happen in my game, they happen in-game, in-character. Ironically, we are in agreement about what sort of things we dislike as DMs. Unfortunately, we appear to be in disagreement with what constitutes those things. For example, I consider a Summon Monster V casting which results in a persistent divine strike force regardless of whatever else the party is doing to be "the giant golden thumb of the almighty DM" and set into motion by "contrived consequences." Evil still exists in the mortal world because not all evils in the world are known, imminent threats to Celestia, and because there are many threats to Celestia from other places as well. The choice as to which threats require attention depends on the level of the threat, as well as the ability to handle it. A 9th level party that is able to be located in a reasonable amount of time is able to be handled. That 9th level party has a member who has proven he can and does abuse the very agents of Celestia for evil means to personal goals and can do so remotely, from anywhere, at any time. Doable if acted on quickly, and a proven threat; worth the attention. That's reasonable. I disagree entirely on the threat assessment criteria, the immediacy of the threat, and the resources available to Celestia at any given time (among other things), but given the lack of headway possible I will limit my response to just this paragraph. So a first offense, no matter how vile and repeatable, can be ignored, by beings who personify Lawful Good... I have my doubts. Given the other issues these personifications of Lawful Good have to deal with and given the (generally proven) ability of the Material Plane to deal with its own issues, absolutely. It is entirely likely that Bob's party abandons him after made aware of the evil act, or if the entire party is evil, they encounter a normal response for wanton destruction on the Material Plane - authorities looking for them, adventurers wanting to gain fame/glory/loot/whatever by hunting them down, and so on. If Bob continues to slay all who oppose him and/or summon hound archons to slay children, then the Divine Option (aka Nuclear Option) becomes a logical step given the default cosmology. Material summonings are worse, because they're doing the same thing remotely, from anyplace, at any time, and it's very difficult to trace. Apparently it is easy to trace considering Jimmy is having no problem doing it without any outside help other than a Plane Shift. In any case, the original question was never about which was "worse," which is entirely subjective. You say it is worse summoning hound archons on the Material Plane because it is harder to stop. I say it is worse actually kidnapping and committing evil on the plane of Celestia itself. Who's right? Everyone is. Although I think it should be clear that kidnapping and doing evil on Celestia is about a thousand times more reasonable to be called "an attack on the plane of Celestia" than Summon Monster spells. Only the Hound Archon summoned can be sure to have the means to track down the perpetrator. As a victim and witness who can teleport (with absolute precision) to the crime scene, as well as a skilled tracker with the scent ability, Jimmy is likely the only one who can catch Bob, especially if Bob was sneaky about things. If Bob teleported away, Jimmy still has a job to do, and going to the nearest temple and asking for help ("Father O'mally, can you scry on this Bob fellow? He is a vile slayer of children and manipulator of angels themselves. I will describe him and his party...") is an option as well. Greater Teleport, plus tracking, plus scent, plus being an agent of the heavens, can go a long way. None of which actually addresses whether a divine strike force is necessary to begin with. As for having Father O'mally doing Scrying, great, another 5th-level spell. Now you are dispatching a EL 9 squad of celestials to hunt down Bob by Plane Shifting, Scrying, and Greater Teleporting all because of a single casting of Summon Monster V. If this does not qualify as "popping out of the sky," "the golden thumb of the DM," and/or "rocks fall, everyone dies," then I may have to seriously reconsider the time used in writing these replies.
malignor 12-19-06, 12:09 AM	It is not viable via RAW to say that the summons will remeber everything it did, as this is simply not written anywhere in the rules. bad malignor.I've never claimed, implied or suggested it did. How can you critique me for not reading a pair of books, when you seem to have so much difficulty with a few pages worth of forum postings? Forgive me for not taking you up on your plea. Especially in light of the fact that doing so would be completely irrelevant toward everything I have posted. If you read through my postings slowly, carefully, you may be able to glean that fact for yourself.
archcomponent 12-19-06, 05:53 PM	None of which actually addresses whether a divine strike force is necessary to begin with. Did you miss what I said entirely? He is a vile summoner who is not above using celestials to perform atrocities. Unless they are morons - which they may be in your game - the celestial forces can take it to the bank that he is going to steal more of their time in the future. The chance of this problem going away if the celestials ignore it is zero, and to have them act as if they were holy ostritches is downright silly. It is a given that he is going to occupy the time of celestial beings in the future. And he will do so under circumstances not at the control of the heavenly forces. As he grows in power, he may well steal away an even more important celestial being at a critical time. This is a real danger that any archon with half a brain can see and just ignoring it is not a more sensible thing. By taking action, they can control, and compensate and plan for the brief absense of those who take leave. Perhaps this has an equal impact to disappearances due to summoning in the short term, but in the long term it is clearly the more beneficial action for the forces of good. Maybe it is not easier for them, but they are paragons of good and willing to make efforts to redress the slaughter of the innocent. You talk about consistency. Well, if your world will fall apart from the celestials taking leave and stopping the threat of uncontrolled random disappearances, then it damn well will fall apart from your summoner's actions as he grows in power. And yes, those like him across the planes. IF the forces of good and world entire do not self-destruct from summoning occurances, then they certainly can take the time to stem an evil that weakens them. The sadistic summoner exists, whether the archons like it or not. It is idiocy of the highest order for them to assume that he will stop his summons or decrease in power. So they must take it as a given that he will continue to weaken them with disappearances and strengthen the forces of evil. They can either set aside the time to end him for the benefit of all that is good, or they can have him set aside their time ad infinitum for the benefit of that which is vile.
User5127 12-19-06, 06:21 PM	Nezkrul, Unfortunately, some of us have jobs and other activities that eat into our time to read all WoTC products cover to cover and slowly. hmm don't know about you, but i have school for 40 hours a week (seriously, 8 hours a day) and I work 30 hours a week on top of that. I study adn still manage a reasonable 85 average. and I read a book a week. cover to cover. I also play dnd, magic, hang out with my friends and go to movies. sometimes i find room for sleep. sometimes. jk lol man this argument has become rather silly hasn't it? its rather circular. be nice if some one just emails WoTC to get an official ruling/opinion. and settle the arguements.
redraven 12-19-06, 07:26 PM	Did you miss what I said entirely? He is a vile summoner who is not above using celestials to perform atrocities. Unless they are morons - which they may be in your game - the celestial forces can take it to the bank that he is going to steal more of their time in the future. The chance of this problem going away if the celestials ignore it is zero, and to have them act as if they were holy ostritches is downright silly. I do not know how many times I will have to repeat myself, but I shall do so again in the hopes that this will be the last time: Who said anything about celestials being the only possible way to avenge the orphans and/or put a stop to Bob's antics? The entire point of my posting here and maintaining the argument is to demonstrate that: Bob can be "dealt with" without divine intervention. Claiming that Bob's actions directly, materially, and/or significantly impair Celestia or other divine forces is an internally inconsistent position. Ruling that summon spells remember everything and/or logically seek revenge not only goes beyond RAW (not inherently bad) and severely nerfs the Summon spells (inherently bad), it appears to be entirely inseparable from actions that can be, at best, described as "the giant golden thumb of the DM," "rocks fall, everyone dies," and similar actions of blatant DM powertripping. I thought I had made those goals relatively clear considering they have been followed in every single post I have made in this thread. At this point, I am having my doubts as to whether I have simply not presented strong enough arguments or that the intended audience is too stubborn to give alternate opinions the time of day. Considering malignor has been the only one actually addressing anything I post directly, I am leaning towards the latter. It is a given that he is going to occupy the time of celestial beings in the future. [etc] Not at all. If Bob was not evil before, he is evil now, and whether his own party will tolerate his actions remains to be seen. As I stated before (and which has never been challenged since), being evil is its own penalty, especially in the life of a D&D adventurer. NPCs are likely to be uncooperative, if not attack Bob outright, upon learning his past actions and can expect to have a difficult time getting healing, hanging around paladins, or otherwise performing normal adventurer activities. You talk about consistency. Well, if your world will fall apart from the celestials taking leave and stopping the threat of uncontrolled random disappearances, then it damn well will fall apart from your summoner's actions as he grows in power. And yes, those like him across the planes. IF the forces of good and world entire do not self-destruct from summoning occurances, then they certainly can take the time to stem an evil that weakens them. This is amusing and self-contradictory. If summoning spells do not materially impact the celestial realms (which I have been arguing all along), then getting celestials involved is unnecessary - no harm (against Celestia), no foul. If summoning spells do materially impact the celestial realms, then the celestial realms are in big trouble for all the reasons I have pointed out in prior posts. The only rational ruling for the default cosmology appears to be that summoning spells have about as much effect on anything as a Fireball would in the same situation. The act of slaying orphans itself is certainly punishable (alignment, search parties, etc), but it is not at all clear that a divine strike force Plane Shifting, Scrying, and Greater Teleporting into Bob's camp is the most logical first response. If Bob slays, say, Father O'Malley and the LG posse that confronted them, then things start to change - it becomes clear that the Material Plane is having difficulty in dealing with its own problems. Or, if Bob has been continuously summoning hound archons to slaughter orphans in other towns (or similar evils), his threat level may escalate. In any case, saying that divine strike forces are the logical result of a single Summon Monster V says a lot about the sort of campaign one is running along with saying a lot about the forces of good within the campaign cosmology. It seem terribly inconsistent to say celestials hunt Bob until his dying day, but do nothing against baby-eating kings, tribes of cannibals, cultures that stone members to death, and so on. Or even, really, why the supposedly good PCs have anything to do, ever.
archcomponent 12-19-06, 08:04 PM	Not at all. If Bob was not evil before, he is evil now, and whether his own party will tolerate his actions remains to be seen. If you had bothered to try to comprehend what I was saying, I was speaking from the viewpoint of the celestials. They will take it as a given. They will NOT say, "Well, he is evil now, so maybe his party will kill him or someone else will catch him and he will go away." At least, not unless they are retarded. Evil being 'its own penalty' from your metagame stance does not mean that the archons will turn a blind eye and think he has suffered enough or that it will 'work itself out'. This is amusing and self-contradictory. If summoning spells do not materially impact the celestial realms (which I have been arguing all along), then getting celestials involved is unnecessary - no harm (against Celestia), no foul. If summoning spells do materially impact the celestial realms, then the celestial realms are in big trouble for all the reasons I have pointed out in prior posts. Yes, I am aware of your stance that either it has no impact or the world would explode. However, this is laughable and could be used as a textbook example of fallacious reasoning. I honestly do not know if you bothered to read my post, but one point that I made was that such summoning carries the risk of absconding celestials during their more critical actions. This rate need not be high, and the negative impact can be less than the world exploding yet still be noticeable and harmful. The forces choosing to dispatch their own is completely without such a risk, and works to resolve this great threat of harm (which may be an event that occurs once very rarely). Here, allow me to put this in terms you might find easier to understand. Bill is a supervisor and important to my factory. However, Bill is a drunk and misses work randomly. Whereas sometimes this does not matter much, there are times when other supervisors are not available and times I really need Bill to be there or there will be a big production SNAFU. I decide I have to to fire Bill and get a replacement. I do not get my replacement for 2 weeks, but I can be sure to plan for Bill not being there and have other supervisors cover for him. In the end, perhaps production dips slightly without Bill in the short term. But this is the smart thing to do. It is much better for production in the long run, and will not cause the factory to explode. Do you need me to break down that example for you, or do you see how this mirrors the archon/summoning situation? Saying, "Maybe Bill will sober up on his own or never miss work when it matters," is dumb - just as dumb as you are saying celestials would act. Just to make it clear enough for you, Bill is the archons and the drunkeness is the blight of the summoner. Replace firing with 'sending to get help' if it makes a better anology to you, but that drunkeness has to go, even if it means that Bill is out of the factory at a clinic for two weeks. In any case, saying that divine strike forces are the logical result of a single Summon Monster V says a lot about the sort of campaign one is running along Wow. Metagaming campaign bashing ahoy. All these mentions of the level of the spell. Would you poke a dragon in the eye with a spell and then cry about the 'sort of campaign' when it ate you because it was "just" a cantrip?
sigea 12-19-06, 08:53 PM	Just a couple of silly questions that I thought would be interesting to answer: 1, as you get higher level summoning spells, can't you also summon more of the same creature on a lower level spell. eg, with summon monster 6\7 cant you summon like 1d6 Hound Archons? Secondly, can you make summon monster spell persistant? this could have a huge impact on the time that the hound archon is away from their critical world saving task, and image if he is killed at the end, he could be lost to celestia for 2 days instead of 1. Any thoughts?
malignor 12-19-06, 11:50 PM	Just a couple of silly questions that I thought would be interesting to answer: 1, as you get higher level summoning spells, can't you also summon more of the same creature on a lower level spell. eg, with summon monster 6\7 cant you summon like 1d6 Hound Archons? Secondly, can you make summon monster spell persistant? this could have a huge impact on the time that the hound archon is away from their critical world saving task, and image if he is killed at the end, he could be lost to celestia for 2 days instead of 1. Any thoughts?1. Summon Monster A summons 1 of a creature, Summon Monster A+1 can summon 1d3 of the same creature, and Summon Monster A+2 can summon 1d4+1 of the same creature. 2. Dunno. But all you have to do is destroy the summoned beings, and then they do not reform on their home plane for 24 hours. Aside, isn't it interesting that they mention that little 24 hours thing. I wonder why, eh, Redraven? 1) [snip] 5)This isn't much of a premisePremise? Do you know the difference between a premise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premise_%28argument%29) and an assumption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption)? When I list 5 assumptions as part of an argument, then my argument can sort of be structured like a big "if then" statement, where the assumptions are the "if" part and the rest of the argument is the "then" or consequent part. To argue against the assumptions of an argument does nothing for your case or against mine. You just waste time. and, as you said...I may have to seriously reconsider the time used in writing these replies.Anyway, moving on.By your explanation, a LG cleric summoning Jimmy to defend the children from Bob the Evil Wizard constitutes kidnapping, and should have the appropriate consequences.Lets break this apart. 1. Not necessarily the same as kidnapping, because these spells and summons are supplied by the cleric's deity, who the summoned beings likely represent. 2. A classic all-or-nothing argument, "appropriate consequences", inferring the wrath of the heavens to be waged on a good cleric for summoning good guys to do good things. You do realize how absurd this is for a counter-argument, don't you? To kidnap Jimmy to do good and/or lawful acts is pretty much what his job is, as a representative of lawful goodness. On the other hand, to kidnap Jimmy to do acts of chaos and/or evil is the most anti-Jimmy thing, ever. You think Jimmy would LIKE being made to kill orphans? How about making Jimmy save lives and help the downtrodden? Which would Jimmy like and which would he not like? Can you figure this out? Do you know the difference between Divine magic and Arcane magic, and where they come from? Think carefully, now.I have already pointed this out, for I believe the fourth time: Bob's intent (and future actions) is entirely relevant in determining whether this was an attack on Celestia. It may not matter for Jimmy, but it should matter for Reggie or any of the greater beings Jimmy is beseeching assistance from.So Jimmy, Reggie and everyone involved just has to turn to this being called the "Dee-emm" and ask "Hey Dee-emm, none of us have transplanar scrying with detect thoughts. What is Bob's intent?" At which point Dee-Emm would say "Don't worry, you're just unimportant NPCs. Never mind what Bob's intent is, because action on your part in unneccesary, no matter how important you may feel it is." then the Celestials, who all have the ability to account for each other and can track who was summoned by what mortal on a big chart on the inside of a bathroom stall, can see that this is the first time Bob ever did this. That was sarcasm by the way. I was making fun of giving gobs of metagame knowledge to NPCs so they magically know that a response isn't necessary. Ruling that Bob is worth an expenditure of Celestia's limited resources, and accepting my premises above, leads to the conclusion that the heavenly realms would have been defeated eons ago, as I have already stated.This is funny. So all these "x" number of summoners just have to magically level up, while never abusing celestials for the entirety of their evil careers, and then coordinate appropriate summoning spells all at once! I'm sure that happens every Thursday. I have a questionaire for you: 1 - How many Hound Archons are there, as in all of them? 2 - How many summoners thus have to synchronize appropriate summoning spells to weaken the ranks of Celestia by, say, 5%? 3 - How big an event is this? 4 - How easy would this be to pull off, without anyone from the upper planes figuring it out first (via a good cleric hearing about it, for example)? games can be ruled by DM fiat, Rule Zero, and such all day long. But practically speaking, it is really no different than saying "Rocks fall, everyone dies" whenever a PC does something bad.I love these extremist arguments. Ones like "the only way to prove electricity exists is to die from electrocution". You know, the "nothing or the world explodes" arguments, as so eloquently said by Archcomponent. So you say that... by me as DM playing out reasonable reactions from my NPCs in response to PC activity... I am overusing rule zero... and giving the "golden thumb" treatment. Ahh, but of course, Archons going after the guy who forced them to slaughter orphans isn't reasonable, right? Wait a minute... something doesn't fit. Can you spot the flaw-err flaws?As far as the "purely in-character NPC motivation" claim goes, that's DM fiat.Oho! So NPC motivations are DM-fiat and illogical. And yet you claim to not run your NPCs as emotionless robots. Wait a minute... now I'm getting confused. So your NPCs are emotional but can't have motivation by the RAW? Help me out here.It seems logical to say that Hound Archons are aware of their station in life as being on the Summon Monster V list (and arguably the best creature to summon on that list, in most circumstances).That's a neat idea... Hound Archons sitting there in a line-up, staring at the slip of aper from the "pick a number" dispenser. Would it be the sam for arcane as divine? I mean, divine ones are specifically given by the planes and/or gods. Arcane is just self-powered. Anyway... Finally! Something that makes sense! I think we now underst-An alternate "in-character" rationalization would be for Jimmy to redouble his efforts on Celestia to hunt down fiends (etc) so as to eventually be able to clean up the Material plane once his primary mission is finished. Or maybe Jimmy is a recluse with no friends or family. Or whatever. As it is entirely DM fiat, it remains fairly unconvincing.Oh drat. Never mind. Now you're claiming that the Archon "merely has to wipe out all the fiendish threats", which will only take something like forever, before turning to the Material Plane and bringing the long dead summoner (who, after slaughtering millions and kicking alot of puppies, has probably become another fiend - oh drat more work to do). It would be easier for Jimmy to sign up to be summoned again, hoping to be summoned against Bob one day. After all, he has time to spare for that, right? Too bad he'll just as likely be killing more babies.Apparently it is easy to trace considering Jimmy is having no problem doing it without any outside help other than a Plane Shift. Great! So all we have to do is wait for Bob to strike again using the same MO. Ever seen Demolition Man? Dumb Cop: I have found out how we can stop this murderous death killer. John Spartan: And howwizzat? Dumb Cop: We just have to wait for him to kill again and we'll come running! John Spartan: ... <walks away in disbelief> Good movie. I like the part where Taco Bell is the ONLY restaurant. heheh.I think it should be clear that kidnapping and doing evil on Celestia is about a thousand times more reasonable to be called "an attack on the plane of Celestia" than Summon Monster spells.So when aliens come from outer space and take people away, it's not as important or scary as when a neighbour takes people away? Summoning is kinda like alien abduction. Or, like a sniper, you can't see until it's too late, is not as bad as someone who is right there with a gun. Remote, unknown threats are not as bad as ones you can react to. Gotcha.None of which actually addresses whether a divine strike force is necessary to begin with.Metagame speaking it's completely NOT necessary. In-game, in-character of the NPCs (given the assumptions), it's a moral imperative.As for having Father O'mally doing Scrying, great, another 5th-level spell. Now you are dispatching a EL 9 squad of celestials to hunt down Bob by Plane Shifting, Scrying, and Greater Teleporting all because of a single casting of Summon Monster V. If this does not qualify as "popping out of the sky," "the golden thumb of the DM," and/or "rocks fall, everyone dies," then I may have to seriously reconsider the time used in writing these replies.Yeah, no kidding. I mean what paragon of lawful goodness would waste 2 whole 5th level spells to bring a mass-murderer of children to justice, anyway? That's just totally stupid... Oh WAIT! Did you say mass-murderer of children? Or did you forget about that too?
sigea 12-20-06, 12:35 AM	2. Dunno. But all you have to do is destroy the summoned beings, and then they do not reform on their home plane for 24 hours. malignor, my comment was in response to redravens assumption that Jommy would only be lost for "a couple of minutes" unless killed. Now, if Jimmy is summoned through a persistant version, he is likely to be doing the will of evil for 24 hours and then killed, which would take him out for another 24 hours, which in my eyes could make it even more imperitive to kill bob, he is taking Jimmy from his life's work for longer than a mere few minutes. And imagine how much worse that is if Bob summons 5 Jimmies for 24 hours, to me that makes Bob a bigger threat by the second. Also, with teleport and greater teleport, is there anything in the raw that dictates that you must know what plane and exactly where you were? From what I understand RAW just states that if you have been to a location you can use that as your destination with pretty good chances of success. If not, teleport will hardly ever work, there must be MILLIONS of caves\dungeons\rooms\castles that all look the same. Thanks
redraven 12-20-06, 02:31 AM	Let the rampant ad hominem begin. :rolleyes: If you had bothered to try to comprehend what I was saying, I was speaking from the viewpoint of the celestials. They will take it as a given. They will NOT say, "Well, he is evil now, so maybe his party will kill him or someone else will catch him and he will go away." At least, not unless they are retarded. Evil being 'its own penalty' from your metagame stance does not mean that the archons will turn a blind eye and think he has suffered enough or that it will 'work itself out'. There is a huge difference between ignoring a problem and recognizing a problem and not taking action (for whatever reason). The sort of mindset you are presenting would leave the entirety of Celestia empty as legions of hound archons and other good beings flood the Material Plane in an attempt to reconcile the innumerable evil committed on a daily basis. Meanwhile, they are not doing anything at all "protect the innocent" and guard Celestia until after their targets have been destroyed, if they ever are. I honestly do not know if you bothered to read my post, but one point that I made was that such summoning carries the risk of absconding celestials during their more critical actions. This rate need not be high, and the negative impact can be less than the world exploding yet still be noticeable and harmful. The forces choosing to dispatch their own is completely without such a risk, and works to resolve this great threat of harm (which may be an event that occurs once very rarely). Not really. The problem is that you appear to be ignoring the fact that the Material Plane is infinite, as are most other planes. Even if summoning only interfered with hound archon activities as a whole 0.000000000005% of the time, multiplied by infinity it still equals 100% (or infinity percent, if you prefer). Here, allow me to put this in terms you might find easier to understand. Bill is a supervisor [etc] Poor analogy that does not fit the scenario at all. Let me amend it so as to actually address the concerns that have been raised thus far: You run a Widget Factory that is under constant pressure from other factories across the street, and have no idea how much longer you can stay in business. Bill, one of your supervisors and an all-around nice guy, happens to get drunk, once. Option A: Fire Bill, as he is obviously an alcoholic. To fire him, you will need to send four of your other supervisors away for a week or more, using the company car and credit card, in order be sure Bill never gets drunk again. It is a dangerous mission and those four supervisors could (and are likely to) meet certain doom. Option B: Keep an eye on Bill, but otherwise do nothing. You know he has a family and kids that probably do not want to see him drunk, and it is not entirely clear that Bill showing up to work drunk was a sign of things to come or not. Wow. Metagaming campaign bashing ahoy. All these mentions of the level of the spell. Would you poke a dragon in the eye with a spell and then cry about the 'sort of campaign' when it ate you because it was "just" a cantrip? Take it as an attack if you choose - it was not intentional, in any case. It means exactly what I wrote: sending a strike force for a first offense means you are playing a campaign in which celestials are dispatched on first offenses. If it does not, then you are admitting to inconsistent DMing. Premise? Do you know the difference between a premise and an assumption? When I list 5 assumptions as part of an argument, then my argument can sort of be structured like a big "if then" statement, where the assumptions are the "if" part and the rest of the argument is the "then" or consequent part. To argue against the assumptions of an argument does nothing for your case or against mine. You just waste time. and, as you said... Do you understand what "premise" means? Premises are assumptions that must be accepted as true in order for the argument to lead to a logical conclusion. Whether or not you wish to call them assumptions or premises, the fact remains that they are the reasoning behind your position. Lets break this apart. 1. Not necessarily the same as kidnapping, because these spells and summons are supplied by the cleric's deity, who the summoned beings likely represent. 2. A classic all-or-nothing argument, "appropriate consequences", inferring the wrath of the heavens to be waged on a good cleric for summoning good guys to do good things. You do realize how absurd this is for a counter-argument, don't you? To kidnap Jimmy to do good and/or lawful acts is pretty much what his job is, as a representative of lawful goodness. On the other hand, to kidnap Jimmy to do acts of chaos and/or evil is the most anti-Jimmy thing, ever. You think Jimmy would LIKE being made to kill orphans? How about making Jimmy save lives and help the downtrodden? Which would Jimmy like and which would he not like? Can you figure this out? Do you know the difference between Divine magic and Arcane magic, and where they come from? Think carefully, now. The absurd conclusion is the logical result of your argument supporting the idea of summoning spells being considered kidnapping. I made absolutely no assumptions at all throughout that paragraph - I used your own definition to demonstrate that the argument as presented is absurd. There is no sense getting agitated at me for revealing absurd arguments for what they are. [irrelevant sarcasm] That was sarcasm by the way. I was making fun of giving gobs of metagame knowledge to NPCs so they magically know that a response isn't necessary. I am well aware when you employ sarcasm in response to an argument or comment - the absence of any sort of counter-argument beyond dismissive hand-waving gives it away. Then, typically, the straw men start parading out as in this case. The forces of Celestia do not know Bob's intent, that's the point. It may have been a deliberate attack on Celestia, or maybe Bob used all his Cloudkills for the day. Who knows? Of course, if Celestia has the resources to send a hound archon strike force to the Material Plane (and arranged for their extraction later) and the hound archons cannot be sent for better use elsewhere, and so on and so forth through all the varied assumptions (many of which I do not agree with), then sure. Release the hounds. Nothing in RAW suggests that Celestia has that much resources to spare in punishing first offenses and dealing with unknown threats, but if the agents of good are practically omnipresent in your cosmology, more power to you. This is funny. So all these "x" number of summoners just have to magically level up, while never abusing celestials for the entirety of their evil careers, and then coordinate appropriate summoning spells all at once! I'm sure that happens every Thursday. Probably about as often as hound archon strike forces being dispatched, given the apparently lax criteria for their use. I have a questionaire for you: 1 - How many Hound Archons are there, as in all of them? 2 - How many summoners thus have to synchronize appropriate summoning spells to weaken the ranks of Celestia by, say, 5%? 3 - How big an event is this? 4 - How easy would this be to pull off, without anyone from the upper planes figuring it out first (via a good cleric hearing about it, for example)? 1) Apparently a limited enough number that Bob summoning one (1) hound archon for 45 seconds makes a splash. 2) Again, if Bob is enough of a threat by himself, adding another evil summoner would increase the damage dealt by 100% for each additional summoner. 3) Big enough for a strike force for each summoner. So, EL9*n where n = number of summoners. 4) Depends if this was based on the Material or some other plane. Given infinite space in which to occur, I'd say pretty easy. None of this is relevant at all to the argument, though. love these extremist arguments. Ones like "the only way to prove electricity exists is to die from electrocution". You know, the "nothing or the world explodes" arguments, as so eloquently said by Archcomponent. So you say that... by me as DM playing out reasonable reactions from my NPCs in response to PC activity... I am overusing rule zero... and giving the "golden thumb" treatment. Ahh, but of course, Archons going after the guy who forced them to slaughter orphans isn't reasonable, right? Wait a minute... something doesn't fit. Can you spot the flaw-err flaws? The biggest flaw is quoting sentences out of context, say by removing the primary clause of the sentence, and then attacking the second half as if it were meant to stand alone. This is what I said: If one does not DM a purely logical/consistent cosmology, that's fine - games can be ruled by DM fiat, Rule Zero, and such all day long. Reasonable celestial NPC reactions are based on the cosmology present in game. The DM is free to change the cosmology, perhaps to craft a multiverse in which hound archon strike forces are regularly dispatched at the first sight of evil. That's completely fine - I have no problem if you want to run games that way. It is a different story if the cosmology is chosen to be one thing, and then the DM does something completely different. Oho! So NPC motivations are DM-fiat and illogical. And yet you claim to not run your NPCs as emotionless robots. Wait a minute... now I'm getting confused. So your NPCs are emotional but can't have motivation by the RAW? Help me out here. If you insist of reading things into my responses that simply are not there (i.e. straw men, etc), then I am afraid that nothing I can possibly say will be able to help you. If you are sincere in wanting to understand my position, reading them as a whole (the way they were meant to be taken) is a good start. That's a neat idea... Hound Archons sitting there in a line-up, staring at the slip of aper from the "pick a number" dispenser. Would it be the sam for arcane as divine? I mean, divine ones are specifically given by the planes and/or gods. Arcane is just self-powered. Anyway... Finally! Something that makes sense! I think we now underst- This, for example, is not a good start. Oh drat. Never mind. Now you're claiming that the Archon "merely has to wipe out all the fiendish threats", which will only take something like forever, before turning to the Material Plane and bringing the long dead summoner (who, after slaughtering millions and kicking alot of puppies, has probably become another fiend - oh drat more work to do). It would be easier for Jimmy to sign up to be summoned again, hoping to be summoned against Bob one day. After all, he has time to spare for that, right? Too bad he'll just as likely be killing more babies. I am quoting this more of an acknowledgment that I read it rather than actually taking the time to address it. Which, given the apparent intent, would be a waste of time. Great! So all we have to do is wait for Bob to strike again using the same MO. Ever seen Demolition Man? Do you read my responses at all? I have my doubts considering your response has nothing to do what I was replying to. You stated that summoning is worse because they are nearly impossible to trace, which clearly contradicts the ease in which you attribute Jimmy finding Bob at the end of the Plane Shift. To which you respond with a irrelevant remark about Demolition Man. So when aliens come from outer space and take people away, it's not as important or scary as when a neighbour takes people away? Summoning is kinda like alien abduction. Or, like a sniper, you can't see until it's too late, is not as bad as someone who is right there with a gun. Remote, unknown threats are not as bad as ones you can react to. Gotcha. This has nothing at all to do with what is more important or scarier and everything to do with what constitutes an attack on Celestia (the topic of discussion during the quoted exchange). The sample scenarios are not even remotely analogous, considering summoned creatures cannot truly be harmed by any means. Yeah, no kidding. I mean what paragon of lawful goodness would waste 2 whole 5th level spells to bring a mass-murderer of children to justice, anyway? That's just totally stupid... Oh WAIT! Did you say mass-murderer of children? Or did you forget about that too? If it is that easy to justify the expenditure of resources, you may as well save Jimmy the trouble and have Reggie the CR 14 Trumpet Archon mete out justice personally. That way, Bob and his (potentially evil) party will be assured destruction. On a side note, do you often allow LG party members to use 5th-level spells from NPC clerics at no expense? After all, the PCs are the only reasonably way to defeat the baby-eating king, the forces of LG obviously can spare any expense given the logic above.
bitnine 12-20-06, 03:23 AM	Even if summoning only interfered with hound archon activities as a whole 0.000000000005% of the time, multiplied by infinity it still equals 100% (or infinity percent, if you prefer).Wait, did you use L'hospitals rule or something to get that? 'Cause it does look to me like you've got some red hot ∞/∞ action going on there. Rawr.
malignor 12-20-06, 10:08 AM	Redraven, I honestly would like for you to answer that questionaire from your own knowledge. If you claim that there are an infinite number of Hound Archons, your premise, that Celestia can't afford to lose 1-3 archons for a few days or months for every SMV casting of Hound Archons for vile purpose, is seriously at risk. I mean, how many times would the following criteria be met: - the mortal has an Int and/or Cha of 15 or higher - the mortal chose the appropriate arcane spellcasting class (Wiz for Int15+, Bard or Sorc for Cha15+) - the mortal undertook enough trials and challenges to reach a high enough level (Wiz5, Sorc6, Bard13) - the mortal cast SMV - the mortal chose Hound Archon (or, come to think of it, 1d3 Lanter Archons) - the mortal uses these summoned Archons for a vile act, OR (inclusive or) as a means to "weaken" Celestia (which I myself doubt). How often would you say these criteria are met, compared to how many times... - A particular Archon and/or a couple of his comrades have some available time (or are given permission) to hunt down an evil that directly affected the particular Archon. - A being from Celestia (Trumpet Archon, Deity, Astral Diva, Planetar, Solar, Half-Celestial spellcaster of appropriate level, Celestial spellcaster of appropriate level) is apprised of the situation and willingly transports said celestials to the Prime OR (inclusive or) is wiling to get personally involved OR (inclusive or again) the Archons have some available means to get to the Prime without assistance (such as a known permanent Gate, anywhere on the same plane) = = = = = = = Anyway... Another question. Let us suppose that Jimmy and his buddies estimate that they can track down Bob in less than a day. Once on the same plane of existence, they have the skills and powers, and Jimmy has the memory of the crime scene and a possible description of the Bob summoner (who may have been disguised). Definitely 24 hours, they say. Now how is it that Celestia can't afford to lose 1-3 CR4 Archons for a day, maybe two, to track down a vile spellcaster who involved agents of Celestia in his evil, but they CAN afford to lose all these summoned Hound Archons who are lost for 24 hours by being crushed in battles across the planes? My conclusion: There are enough Hound Archons to go around for all castings of SMV-VII, so there are enough to spare a few extra for bringing to justice the tiny subset of SMV-VII castings that are used for vile purposes (or for "weakening Celestia"). That amount of archons is approximately as small (smaller, in the case of weakening celestia) as the subset of those castings. Furthermore, if Celestia responded thus to vile abuses of its summoned agents (in this game setting), there would be tales, stories and likely documented knowledge that this does, in fact, occur. Thus many arcane casters would already be aware of the folly of abusing summoned beings, so any decent DM would allow said caster a knowledge check beforehand, which (if passed) would earn the player a warning from the DM about what that spellcasting character read or heard about in regard to this matter. EDIT: I'd like to add (for those that haven't figured it out yet) that this knowledge would reduce even further the subset of arcane SMV-VII that result in abusing the summoned being.
Frodo34x 12-20-06, 03:46 PM	Why even involve angels in it...this is a Hound Archon problem and Hound Archons can solve it...say a battalion of Hound Archons...with a Hound Archon hero leading them. So, like a Hound Archon with class levels?
chucky 12-20-06, 04:18 PM	Yes exactly that. They can take class levels. Is’nt there a variant somewhere that allows you to summon the same critter every time you do a monster summoning spell? If so could a evil vile bastard just keep summoning the same celestial/angel, and then torture it for the spells duration, every day just for fun? Cant kill it of course, because of the 24 hour rule, but you can do alot without killing something... Hmm actually with persistant spell you could make it so that it would never get back to its home plane till you got bored and killed it and then just summoned it again after 24 hours. Of course the same mage could start a cat house and rent the critter out by the hour. And how long would this have to continue before somebody did something about it? I would love to play a evil caster in some of your campaigns. I have actually read the BOVD. You get a crap load of brownie points for torturing a good critter to death during a ceremony. And by your rules my char could do it every day all day without anybody in the outer planes getting ****** :) Can anybody say free magic items :)
sigea 12-20-06, 07:39 PM	Take it as an attack if you choose - it was not intentional, in any case. It means exactly what I wrote: sending a strike force for a first offense means you are playing a campaign in which celestials are dispatched on first offenses. If it does not, then you are admitting to inconsistent DMing Redraven, so do you agree that prolonged use of this tactic would warrant a react from the powers of celestia, and if so, how many times does such an attrocity need to be committed? Or are you saying that the powers of good would NEVER react to such a threat as it is to low on their priority list? Is your issue around inter plannar relations or is it simply an issue with this 'celestial strike force'. Would it be acceptable for the powers of good to contact a bunch of "hero's" to complete the same task?
redraven 12-20-06, 11:09 PM	Redraven, I honestly would like for you to answer that questionaire from your own knowledge. If you claim that there are an infinite number of Hound Archons, your premise, that Celestia can't afford to lose 1-3 archons for a few days or months for every SMV casting of Hound Archons for vile purpose, is seriously at risk. Having infinite archons (hound or otherwise) was never one of my premises. Indeed, this entire debate must, from necessity, be grounded in the premise that the forces of good are finite and limited (else evil would have been defeated eons ago, etc). My actual and primary premise has always been that Summoning spells do not impact the summoned creature (or their families, friends, etc) in any meaningful way. I have been using arguments and premises to the contrary (such as yours) to demonstrate how those argument and premises are inherently self-contradictory or otherwise logically inconsistent. I mean, how many times would the following criteria be met: - the mortal has an Int and/or Cha of 15 or higher - the mortal chose the appropriate arcane spellcasting class (Wiz for Int15+, Bard or Sorc for Cha15+) There is really no reason to separate these two things. Seeing as how we are only interested in arcane casters (since everyone else cannot possibly use the spell in this fashion), it seems rather obvious that such characters would be increasing their primary spellcasting statistic. - the mortal undertook enough trials and challenges to reach a high enough level (Wiz5, Sorc6, Bard13) Again, we are talking about wizards, sorcerers, and bards. Wizards may choose to spend their time pouring over ancient texts and such, but generally speaking, all such arcane casters will be attempting to grow more powerful (e.g. gain XP) in the process. - the mortal cast SMV About as likely as any other spell without more information. - the mortal chose Hound Archon (or, come to think of it, 1d3 Lanter Archons) As I said before, unless very specific circumstances dictate otherwise, a hound archon is probably the best option on the list. None of those other creatures, aside from the bearded devil, have greater teleport at will, for example. - the mortal uses these summoned Archons for a vile act, OR (inclusive or) as a means to "weaken" Celestia (which I myself doubt). Vile act or perhaps simply one that is not LG, by some of the arguments I have seen thus far. The problem with the analysis is that although you are attempting to "weaken" the argument by presenting these issues to make it appear that the given chances are very small of all coming together, the fact remains that many of these things are intimately related. For example, if you are an 9th-level wizard, chances are good that you would have the requisite Int 15+. Furthermore, if one is an evil spellcaster, the chances of doing vile things with spells is almost a certain bet. If we go by DMG RAW (pg. 138-139), the answer for "how many" is essentially random and indeterminable. There is a LE metropolis 25% of the time, and the lowest level wizard, sorcerer, and bard in the metropolis possible is 16th-level. On average, that city always contains a 20th-level wizard/sorcerer/bard (all three) and always contains two wizards/sorcerers/bards of 10th level. Indeed, unless the absolute minimum rolls are made, there will always be at least nine (evil) arcane casters capable of using Summon Monster V to summon a hound archon. While the DMG states the NPCs in any given settlement need not have the same alignment as the power center, this variable works across all the alignments, and thus tends to cancel out (i.e. for every CG wizard in a LE metropolis, there is probably a LE wizard in a CG metropolis). In any case, it then becomes a matter of how many metropolises (and smaller settlements which may house 9th-level or higher NPCs) there are on the Material Plane. Then that must be multiplied by the various other planes. Then it ultimately becomes DM fiat. How often would you say these criteria are met, compared to how many times... - A particular Archon and/or a couple of his comrades have some available time (or are given permission) to hunt down an evil that directly affected the particular Archon. - A being from Celestia (Trumpet Archon, Deity, Astral Diva, Planetar, Solar, Half-Celestial spellcaster of appropriate level, Celestial spellcaster of appropriate level) is apprised of the situation and willingly transports said celestials to the Prime OR (inclusive or) is wiling to get personally involved OR (inclusive or again) the Archons have some available means to get to the Prime without assistance (such as a known permanent Gate, anywhere on the same plane) Unlike the previous criteria you presented, the above all has to happen at once. For example, just because the hound archon has free time (option 1) does not mean the same archon has a means to get to the Material Plane (option 2), and vice versa. Anyway... Another question. Let us suppose that Jimmy and his buddies estimate that they can track down Bob in less than a day. Once on the same plane of existence, they have the skills and powers, and Jimmy has the memory of the crime scene and a possible description of the Bob summoner (who may have been disguised). Definitely 24 hours, they say. Now how is it that Celestia can't afford to lose 1-3 CR4 Archons for a day, maybe two, to track down a vile spellcaster who involved agents of Celestia in his evil, but they CAN afford to lose all these summoned Hound Archons who are lost for 24 hours by being crushed in battles across the planes? The easy answer: slain summons always reform, but Plane Shifted hound archons can be killed permanently (barring high level magic). The complicated answer: We metagame about four hound archons to create an appropriate (non-TPK) challenge for Bob and his party, but what seems to be forgotten is the assured destruction of this strike party (at a cost of about 20% of the party's resources for the day). From a metagame standpoint, those hound archons are on a suicide mission which results in a permanent decrease in the forces of good - arguably much more of a loss than the orphans. While it is difficult to surmise how much "metagame" knowledge NPCs have, I think it is logical to suppose that the four-archon strike force knows that they stand little hope of defeating Bob without some kind of crushing advantage (making it EL 9+), especially since Bob has proven he could simply summon a hound archon of his own and essentially negate 25% of the strike force by that action alone (more if he summons, say, Jimmy himself). Thus, the strike force scenario fails in internal consistency once again. For if the forces of Celestia truly deemed Bob a threat, they would not be sending out an EL 9 strike force (whether they know what "EL 9" means or not). Rather, they would logically send out an overwhelming force, say Jimmy and friends backed up by Reggie. This is the logical and rational response based on the argument you have presented, stymied only based on metagame determinations on the part of the DM and the sort of common sense determination that the "giant golden thumb of the DM" does not make playing the game enjoyable at all even if it is logical and consistent. Once reduced to this base level, we arrive again on the plane of discussion that Azarias and I brought up on page 7. Namely, that a DM who rules in favor of strike forces or divine punishment at all should necessarily look at what they are bringing into their campaign and why. Does it bring value to the game experience? I am not saying that DMing in a particular fashion is bad or should be avoided per se - if this is the way you run your campaigns and your players enjoy it, more power to you. What I am saying at this level is considering that logical responses to this act of evil are already being ignored (i.e. sending a strike force that can actually kill Bob), we are left only with DM motivations, not RAW Celestia motivations. Meanwhile, it is entirely supported by RAW to not allow the Summon Monster spells to meaningfully impact the cosmology and/or allow the possibility (either by removing memory, arguing as I have above, etc) of revenge based on the use of Summon Monster V. The actions that resulted, the slaying of orphans in this case, can certainly be punished but need not (and should not, in my opinion) be based on what spell was used to do the deed unless the spell or some other description mentions otherwise (like Planar Ally/Binding do). My conclusion: There are enough Hound Archons to go around for all castings of SMV-VII, so there are enough to spare a few extra for bringing to justice the tiny subset of SMV-VII castings that are used for vile purposes (or for "weakening Celestia"). That amount of archons is approximately as small (smaller, in the case of weakening celestia) as the subset of those castings. So you agree with my original counter-point that Bob poses absolutely no danger to Celestia via the use of Summon Monster spells, and does not materially inhibit hound archon activities in any meaningful way? Fantastic. Furthermore, if Celestia responded thus to vile abuses of its summoned agents (in this game setting), there would be tales, stories and likely documented knowledge that this does, in fact, occur. Thus many arcane casters would already be aware of the folly of abusing summoned beings, so any decent DM would allow said caster a knowledge check beforehand, which (if passed) would earn the player a warning from the DM about what that spellcasting character read or heard about in regard to this matter. This is a excellent point, and has been one of my primary motivations which caused me to post in the first place. I find it entirely expected that almost 100% of those arguing in favor of celestial strike forces would have given Bob absolutely no chance to know the consequences being planned out for him. Bob, as a highly intelligent wizard well-versed in all the spells he uses frequently, should know beforehand the dangers of Summon Monster spells, if such dangers existed. Although it is plausible that the player controlling Bob would have done the same thing regardless, it is equally plausible (and even moreso) that the player had no idea such a thing was a possibility, especially since it was not written in the spell description like it was with Planar Binding.
archcomponent 12-20-06, 11:27 PM	Having infinite archons (hound or otherwise) was never one of my premises. Indeed, this entire debate must, from necessity, be grounded in the premise that the forces of good are finite and limited (else evil would have been defeated eons ago, etc). You honestly think that we are going to buy that the forces of good from the infinite plane of - for example - the seven mounting heavens of celestial must in fact be finite or it would follow that they would have defeated all of the infinite sources of evil by now? Do you really not understand infinity, or are you just trying to pull a fast one on everyone?
redraven 12-20-06, 11:40 PM	Is’nt there a variant somewhere that allows you to summon the same critter every time you do a monster summoning spell? It has been claimed so, but no one as of yet has provided a book or page number of such a variant. It was originally said to be in Complete Arcane, but this is not the case unless I have somehow missed it in doing research for this thread. Hmm actually with persistant spell you could make it so that it would never get back to its home plane till you got bored and killed it and then just summoned it again after 24 hours. Of course the same mage could start a cat house and rent the critter out by the hour. This would not work at all. Not only are the Summon Monster spells not eligible for the Persistent Spell feat (do not have a fixed range or are Personal range), but even if it were possible, the resulting spell would be 11th level (Persistent Spell adds +6). I would love to play a evil caster in some of your campaigns. I have actually read the BOVD. You get a crap load of brownie points for torturing a good critter to death during a ceremony. And by your rules my char could do it every day all day without anybody in the outer planes getting ****** :) Can anybody say free magic items :) You would not gain brownie points in my game for torturing a summoned creature, which is about as meaningful as casting Summon Instrument and claiming that it is proof of your stealing abilities. Redraven, so do you agree that prolonged use of this tactic would warrant a react from the powers of celestia, and if so, how many times does such an attrocity need to be committed? Or are you saying that the powers of good would NEVER react to such a threat as it is to low on their priority list? Is your issue around inter plannar relations or is it simply an issue with this 'celestial strike force'. Would it be acceptable for the powers of good to contact a bunch of "hero's" to complete the same task? I have stated before that if Bob exclusively uses hound archons for all his evil deeds, that would probably attract attention at some point. But in any case, divine punishment only takes place in my games at two points (A) as a last resort, or (B) whenever is most amusing in an evil campaign, which none of my players take very seriously anyway. I tend to avoid crippling philosophical issues/rulings when their addition to the campaign is minimal, nonexistent, or negative. In this case, since it has some support in RAW, I treat Summon Monster spells as I do Astral Constructs, especially since Psionics are usually present in my campaigns anyway. Edited to add: You honestly think that we are going to buy that the forces of good from the infinite plane of - for example - the seven mounting heavens of celestial must in fact be finite or it would follow that they would have defeated all of the infinite sources of evil by now? Do you really not understand infinity, or are you just trying to pull a fast one on everyone? I understand infinity, but I also understand the default cosmology presented in the DMG, Planar Handbooks, Fiendish Codices, and so on. At some point, infinity does break down when it comes to the Outer Planes and the struggles therein. If there are infinite demons and infinite devils, for example, the Blood War would not at all keep them busy enough to assault Celestia and the Material Plane in infinite ways, even if the Blood War is made up of infinite fiendish warriors and battles. Thus, the only reasonable way to end the paradox is to suppose that there are not infinite Outsiders. And in order to fit the cosmology as presented in RAW, there must by definition be fewer Angels/Archons/etc than demons and devils. An infinite Material Plane can easier be explained as it does not come with as much cosmology baggage as the Outer Planes do.
archcomponent 12-21-06, 12:14 AM	It has been claimed so, but no one as of yet has provided a book or page number of such a variant. You have never read the DMG? Try looking at the bottom of page 37. I understand infinity And next you will tell me that all no infinity can be lower than another. Wait a minute. The only thing the variant changes is that you summon the same creature each time. And what does it spell out as one of the benefits? Here: She can, for instance, send a creature to scout out an area for the duration of the spell and then summon it up again to get a report. I think that most of us can figure out the implications of that without me spelling it out. Right?
malignor 12-21-06, 02:45 AM	meeeemoriieeessss... la la la la la meemmmmorieeeeess... Too bad it's an optional variant, though. So, RedRaven, are there an infinite number of anything in the cosmology as you understand it? Mortals? Layers of the Abyss? I'm sure the other posters here would like to know.
archcomponent 12-21-06, 02:58 AM	Too bad it's an optional variant, though.Well, there are two ways to take that text. The variant only changes what you summon; summons always remember, and this references that with respect to being able to access the same summon to ask it about what it remembers. This variant not only changes what you summon, but it also grants summons the ability to remember information from when they are summoned, which they do not normally possess.I would say that 1 is clearly the more sensible option. At the very least, the text spells out the normal summoning grabs a random individual of the given type - not a reflection or artificial wisp of a creature.
Alienfreak 12-21-06, 11:36 AM	A few things i wanted to say: 1. A Hound Archon using a gate to get onto the prime to hunt you down is playing with his life. He stands no chance against a group of 9th level mages and if he gets killed he is DEAD. He might probably respawn as the lowest type of celestial creature on his home plane in any time between 1 second and eternity. Well ... and the average value here is 0.5*eternity. So not a time you should worry about. 2. Only a non Outsider can do interplanar travel between the outer planes and the prime with spells or spell likes. So he first has to find a mortal to do that. 3. He can try to find out who you are. But the only thing he knows about you is how you look. So he could describe you to a scry capable creature ... and then he would even see the surrounding of your location! WEEEEEEEEEEE... great gain here. So how exactly is he going to find out where you are? 4. How exactly does he determine if you had a disguise self online or the orphans were really orphans? Its not like he has seen the guy you are impersonating before and thus can make a Spot check to see you are not looking like the person... The whole question was answered on page 1. And you guys keep on arguing about your own house rules and really weird intrepretions of good and evil ... so let it be. If you really find any players dumb enough to play with you if you handle it like that ... well ... have fun. But dont try to get any approval from sane persons here.
Azarias 12-21-06, 11:48 AM	Amen.
malignor 12-21-06, 12:09 PM	Well, there are two ways to take that text. The variant only changes what you summon; summons always remember, and this references that with respect to being able to access the same summon to ask it about what it remembers. This variant not only changes what you summon, but it also grants summons the ability to remember information from when they are summoned, which they do not normally possess.I would say that 1 is clearly the more sensible option. At the very least, the text spells out the normal summoning grabs a random individual of the given type - not a reflection or artificial wisp of a creature.Oh, I heartily agree! And I got ready rather quickly this morning, so I had some time to peruse my books. Here is what I found. The Manual of the Planes specifically describes the 7 layers of Celestia as being infinite in size. Furthermore, there are a standard frequency of encounters throughout Celestia, 6/100 of which are Hound Archons. So, in an infinite space, there is a measurable ratio that is populated by Hound Archons. Therefore, there are an infinite number of Hound Archons. There are even more Lantern Archons, but fewer Trumpet Archons, and so the list goes on for outsiders and other extraplanar beings of the upper planes. So, no matter how many you summon, or how many are sent to go after the vile summoner, there are always more Archons. This is true even though there are already an infinite number of spellcasters (the Prime is also infinite) at any given that have a Summon Monster V-VII spell active with Hound Archons selected. How can I say this is true? Well the ratio of arcane summoners (of appropriate level) willing to abuse Hound Archons is small, considering there are good arcane summoners, good divine summoners, as well as non-good summoners (both neutral divine and non-good arcane) who do not summon and abuse hound archons. Since the ratio is small, yet there are enough hound archons to go around for everyone to summon them and still there are an infinite number of Hound Archons in Celestia. Enough to handle an assault from the lower planes, and still enough to send a small ratio of their population to the prime to deal with Vile abusive summoners. The strength of Celestia is not reduced by any significant amount. There are also an infinite number of far more powerful beings in Celestia already, and almost all of them are not on any Summons list. Trumpet Archons are a good example. They can be planar bound, with but a 6th level spell (though at CR 12, and with a constant Magic Circle Against Evil, a Will save of +11, Spell Resistance of 29 and +3 Charisma, it has pretty good chances of just up and annihilating the caster, too). But there are still an infinite number of them in Celestia. There are also infinite Solars, which have Wish as a 1/day SLA (and SM VII at will - summon 1d4+1 Hound Archons if needed; there's your Hound Archons, back in 1 round). Heck, suppose some percentage of the Solars are advanced to the max, with 66 Hitdie. Well there's an infinite number of them, too. Celestia is in safe hands with Jimmy and his buddies out on the Prime, bringing the evil Bob to justice. Even if I concede the argument that Jimmy is oh-so-important, what is the difference in the effects on Celestia between ... [=A=] Jimmy & his best pal coming to the prime, enlisting the help of some local Prime sympathizers (LG clerics, Paladins, etc.) and going after Bob. After doing so, they get Plane Shifted back to Celestia. [=B=] Father O'Mally, the Cleric, using Planar Ally to call up 2 Hound Archons to track down Bob and bring him to justice. The answer is none. Celestia can spare them for Planar Ally, so they can spare them for swiftly tracking down Bob while his trail is still fresh. Conclusion: Jimmy and his buddies are available for doing good in the Prime (sort of like a spontaneous version of "Planar Ally").
malignor 12-21-06, 12:25 PM	1. A Hound Archon using a gate to get onto the prime to hunt you down is playing with his life. He stands no chance against a group of 9th level mages and if he gets killed he is DEAD. He might probably respawn as the lowest type of celestial creature on his home plane in any time between 1 second and eternity. Well ... and the average value here is 0.5*eternity. So not a time you should worry about.See my previous post. It talks about Planar Ally, and compares it to the scenario you argue against. They are no different in regard to the level of danger to the Archon.2. Only a non Outsider can do interplanar travel between the outer planes and the prime with spells or spell likes. So he first has to find a mortal to do that.Please go over this fellow's spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#trumpetArchon), please. Also, if there is any known portal to the Prime on Jimmy's current plane (ask directions), he can Greater Teleport there immediately, hop through, and then Greater Teleport to any place he's been before including the place where he was summoned.3. He can try to find out who you are. But the only thing he knows about you is how you look. So he could describe you to a scry capable creature ... and then he would even see the surrounding around you! WEEEEEEEEEEE... great gain here. So how exactly is he going to find out where you are?He was there, he knows, he can teleport, without any margin for error, to any place he was summoned. Bob the summoner likely left evidence, and also left a trail, even if just his scent. Jimmy the Hound Archon now has Bob's scent, (possibly disguised) description, and knows he's an arcane caster of 9+ level. Jimmy is also a very skilled tracker with Greater Teleport, if you care to read his stat block.The whole question was answered on page 1. And you guys keep on arguing about your own house rules and really weird intrepretions of good and evil ... so let it be. If you really find any players dumb enough to play with you if you handle it like that ... well ... have fun. But dont try to get any approval from sane persons here.First off, I like arguing. If you don't like seeing this thread on page 1, taking up a whole 2 lines on your precious monitor, you can do no more than ignore it or reply to it or be all vindictive and find a way to get it locked. Inferring I'm not sane or attacking traits about me you know nothing about just makes you look childish. You could do better, I'm sure.
Alienfreak 12-21-06, 04:18 PM	See my previous post. It talks about Planar Ally, and compares it to the scenario you argue against. They are no different in regard to the level of danger to the Archon. This is not refering to you but anyone who claimed that a once summoned and abused hound archon would come for you! And if you use a Planar Ally Spell to get a Hound Archon you have called are still dead when killed. You request them by your god and not because they are expendable. Please go over this fellow's spell list, please. Also, if there is any known portal to the Prime on Jimmy's current plane (ask directions), he can Greater Teleport there immediately, hop through, and then Greater Teleport to any place he's been before including the place where he was summoned. Yes ... this fellow is a OUTSIDER and thus he cant planeshift to the prime. And finding a portal to the prime aint that easy. Otherwise the prime would be inhabitet by demons already. He was there, he knows, he can teleport, without any margin for error, to any place he was summoned. Bob the summoner likely left evidence, and also left a trail, even if just his scent. Jimmy the Hound Archon now has Bob's scent, (possibly disguised) description, and knows he's an arcane caster of 9+ level. Jimmy is also a very skilled tracker with Greater Teleport, if you care to read his stat block. Scent ... until the Hound Archon will have a chance to come back it will be long gone. And a Disguise Self will most probably also change your scent. (but i havent ever read anything about this subject) So you have an Outsider who knows that a "that looking Arcane Spellcaster of at least 9th level" has summoned him? Great ... how exactly is he going to find him? Using his ... uhm ... yeah ... nothing to use here. First off, I like arguing. If you don't like seeing this thread on page 1, taking up a whole 2 lines on your precious monitor, you can do no more than ignore it or reply to it or be all vindictive and find a way to get it locked. Inferring I'm not sane or attacking traits about me you know nothing about just makes you look childish. You could do better, I'm sure. All that pretty mad stuff in here made my response look really polite refering to all your statements.
Stormonu 12-21-06, 05:31 PM	Interesting. I wasn't aware that Wizards/Sorcerers were not limited like cleric in not being to cast spells opposed to their alignment. Personally, I think that needs to be errataed. It's silly to think that Lawful good individual would even attempt to summon a chaotic and evil demon, or that a evil wizard would try and use something like a hound archon to commit such a blatently evil act. Yeah, the Hound Archon would kill the orphans, but rules or no, I wouldn't let this slide for more than once in any game I ran.
redraven 12-21-06, 07:02 PM	You have never read the DMG? Try looking at the bottom of page 37. It was originally claimed (multiple times) to be in the Complete Arcane, which it wasn't. Seeing as how you are the first person in the thread to correctly point out where it is actually located, I'd suggest more persons than myself "have never read the DMG." In any case, variants are variants. So, RedRaven, are there an infinite number of anything in the cosmology as you understand it? Mortals? Layers of the Abyss? I'm sure the other posters here would like to know. Logically speaking, the only thing that can be infinite (by RAW) is the Material Plane and mortals residing there. I have already went through the logic demonstrating such in a previous post - I recommend reading it instead of asking me to repeat myself multiple times. Certain things can be considered effectively infinite to preserve RAW however, such as the "Infinite Layers of the Abyss" or the "Infinite Staircase" and so on. Well the ratio of arcane summoners (of appropriate level) willing to abuse Hound Archons is small, considering there are good arcane summoners, good divine summoners, as well as non-good summoners (both neutral divine and non-good arcane) who do not summon and abuse hound archons. Irrelevant. If one presumes infinity, there is no such thing as a "small" ratio. Even if I concede the argument that Jimmy is oh-so-important, what is the difference in the effects on Celestia between ... [=A=] Jimmy & his best pal coming to the prime, enlisting the help of some local Prime sympathizers (LG clerics, Paladins, etc.) and going after Bob. After doing so, they get Plane Shifted back to Celestia. [=B=] Father O'Mally, the Cleric, using Planar Ally to call up 2 Hound Archons to track down Bob and bring him to justice. The answer is none. Celestia can spare them for Planar Ally, so they can spare them for swiftly tracking down Bob while his trail is still fresh. Only applicable in an "Infinite" scenario. In a Limited scenario, the forces of Celestia will be diminished once Bob and crew wipe the floor with a strike force they could handle four or five times a day without breaking a sweat. Incidentally, do you have any comments or counter-arguments to this specific topic which I talked about at length in my previous post? Namely that there is already a concession to metagame thinking by sending an EL 9 strike force when, if your argument for a Celestia response is true, the strike force would logically be far in excess of what Bob and his party could handle (such as Reggie himself at CR 14, plus probably Jimmy and friends)?
PhaedrusXY 12-21-06, 07:07 PM	Interesting. I wasn't aware that Wizards/Sorcerers were not limited like cleric in not being to cast spells opposed to their alignment. Personally, I think that needs to be errataed. Good lord man! The idea of wizards being somewhat aloof when it comes to typical morality is core to alot of fantasy. It is certainly not in need of Errata. If you feel like houseruling it in your games, that's your perogative. But if they decided to make something like that official, I think alot of people would be quite upset. I think this would be even more irritating than when they moved the Cure spells from Necromancy to Conjuration.
Alienfreak 12-21-06, 07:12 PM	Thread hijacking: BRING CURE BACK TO NECROMANCY! :P But some guys in here have some really strange opinion of how things should get handled so i dont really wonder that somebody wants a wizard not to be able to cast spells with an opposed alignment descriptor... that was really predictable :)
malignor 12-21-06, 09:32 PM	Logically speaking, the only thing that can be infinite (by RAW) is the Material Plane and mortals residing there. I have already went through the logic demonstrating such in a previous post - I recommend reading it instead of asking me to repeat myself multiple times. Certain things can be considered effectively infinite to preserve RAW however, such as the "Infinite Layers of the Abyss" or the "Infinite Staircase" and so on.Read the manual of the planes. Seriously. It's right in the book. If you want to argue numbers in regard to outsiders and planes, you're just speculating without any references. I looked it up, so I know. There are at least 7 infinite planes in which there is a 6% chance of a random encounter with Hound ArchonsIrrelevant. If one presumes infinity, there is no such thing as a "small" ratio.Yes. 1% of infinity is still infinity, but a small ratio of the original infinite value (1/100th). If you have an infinite number of Hound Archons, and for every 1000 Hound Archons there is one being capable of summoning a Hound Archon, does it not follow that the number unavailable by being summoned is a small ratio? Do you not know your high school pre-calculus?Only applicable in an "Infinite" scenario. In a Limited scenario, the forces of Celestia will be diminished once Bob and crew wipe the floor with a strike force they could handle four or five times a day without breaking a sweat.What strike force are you talking about? Certainly not the one I propose, that of a couple Hound Archons who enlist good-aligned mortal sympathizers who, as a combined party, provide a solid challenge to the PC party. I've mentioned this at least three times now. Or are you referring to someone else's strike force? Oh yeah, and it is and infinite scenario.Incidentally, do you have any comments or counter-arguments to this specific topic which I talked about at length in my previous post? Namely that there is already a concession to metagame thinking by sending an EL 9 strike force when, if your argument for a Celestia response is true, the strike force would logically be far in excess of what Bob and his party could handle (such as Reggie himself at CR 14, plus probably Jimmy and friends)?As DM, I prefer for events themselves (the "spirit" of events, if you will) be made based on in-game and/or in-character chains of events. However, the mechanical aspects are filtered through DM fiat to make sure the challenge is appropriate, with exceptions. The exceptions being situations where ... - the PCs have an obvious opportunity to escape or otherwise avoid direct conflict against a vastly superior foe. - the PCs get to stomp all over weak nothings, earning little XP but getting the chance to show off and look all important & powerful (a good booster to player morale). Anyway, to justify the threat level after the fact is easy, and can be done with one of many explanations (they underestimated you, they weren't fully prepared but circumstances demanded that they act now or lose your trail, etc.)
redraven 12-22-06, 01:48 PM	Read the manual of the planes. Seriously. It's right in the book. If you want to argue numbers in regard to outsiders and planes, you're just speculating without any references. I looked it up, so I know. There are at least 7 infinite planes in which there is a 6% chance of a random encounter with Hound Archons I (re-)read all the relevant material, including the Manual of the Planes, the Planar Handbook, the DMG (in regards to planes), Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, BoVD and BoED, in just the past week. I absolutely know that they state, in those books, that Celestia and its many layers are infinite in size. What I am telling you, which you seem to either being ignoring or missing altogether, is that logically speaking they cannot both be infinite and for the RAW cosmology to correct. If the forces of Celestia are truly infinite, then the forces of the Abyss and Nine Hells have to be infinite as well, lest all the evil in the multiverse be wiped out already. Further, if all the opposed Outsiders are infinite in number, absolutely nothing would be capable of being accomplished - there would be infinite raids, infinite reprisals, infinite everything. The Blood War would be irrelevant since an infinite number of demons and devils could be involved and yet there would still be an infinite more capable of wrecking evil on other planes. There are only really three ways to resolve the paradox presented in RAW: A) Nothing is infinite, including the planes.* B) All the infinite Outsiders perfectly cancel each other out, making Outsiders irrelevant. C) Ignore RAW. *Alternatively, it could be said that the planes are infinite, but there are not an infinite number of mortals/outsiders. This does not particularly make sense however, and requires a bit of C) to make work. Yes. 1% of infinity is still infinity, but a small ratio of the original infinite value (1/100th). If you have an infinite number of Hound Archons, and for every 1000 Hound Archons there is one being capable of summoning a Hound Archon, does it not follow that the number unavailable by being summoned is a small ratio? Do you not know your high school pre-calculus? Portions of infinity are nevertheless infinity. And even the stated example makes no sense considering, if the Infinite scenario is being invoked, there are actually an infinite number of beings that can summon hound archons (and use them to commit evil). Do you not understand the logical ramifications of infinity? What strike force are you talking about? Certainly not the one I propose, that of a couple Hound Archons who enlist good-aligned mortal sympathizers who, as a combined party, provide a solid challenge to the PC party. I've mentioned this at least three times now. Or are you referring to someone else's strike force? Limited scenario + Slain hound archons = diminished forces of Celestia. This remains true regardless of how many archons are being sent out. Oh yeah, and it is and infinite scenario. Great, and why would the infinite forces of Celestia not just use one of their infinite Solar wishes to bring all the orphans back to life and then use another function of Wish to Plane Shift Bob and party into the Far Realms, Negative Energy Plane, or some other Plane of Certain Doom? Anyway, to justify the threat level after the fact is easy, and can be done with one of many explanations (they underestimated you, they weren't fully prepared but circumstances demanded that they act now or lose your trail, etc.) Not in an infinite scenario, which you claim to be using, but obviously renders your strike force (regardless of make-up) moot. There are an infinite reserve of hound/trumpet archons ready to leave on a moments notice, no reason not to send an entire celestial bridgade, and so on and so forth. The Infinite scenario is both illogical and asinine.
archcomponent 12-22-06, 02:20 PM	Do you not understand the logical ramifications of infinity? And you were so close to having me believe that you understood infinity. It is a pity. Perhaps you would like to find someone with a math background and deal of patience and try asking them a few questions.
Alienfreak 12-22-06, 04:19 PM	Redraven has a good point here. Both the demons and the devils are infinite in numbers, but still the demons are MORE than the devils. The demons can fight by mass and the devils have to use tactics to be able to stand the greater numbers of demons. Infinite is used here to explain that no border is known ... but its still not THAT infinite you make it look like!
archcomponent 12-22-06, 05:31 PM	Both the demons and the devils are infinite in numbers, but still the demons are MORE than the devils. Now we are getting closer. Next imagine a vat of H2O, and then increase that vat to infinite size. Really think about that.
malignor 12-22-06, 05:35 PM	When dealing with infinite values, they can only be compared to each other in like-terms. The example (for every 1000 Hound Archons there is one being in the multiverse that can Summon Archons) in exactly how it works. Just by the example of Celestia alone... - Celstia has 7 planes of infinite size. - Each infinite plane has a 6% chance of a Hound Archon encounter - 3d6 Archons per encounter (if I recall correctly), for an average of 10.5 per encounter. So 7 x 6/100 x 10.5 = 4.41i, where "i" is the (infinite) average size of the planes of Celestia. Suppose that, for every 1000 Hound Archons, there is one available who can summon Hound Archons. Each summoning spell calls (A x 1)+(B x 1d3)+(C x 1d4+1) = A+2B+3.5C Hound Archons, where {A + B + C} = {total number of summoners}, and A, B and C are respective amount of (infinite) summoners that can cast Summon Monster V, VI and VII. Anyway, even if all the summoners had a summoning effect active at he same time, the total number of summoners = (4.41i)/1000 = 0.00441i 0.0044i = A+2B+3.5C A = 0.0044i - 2B - 3.5C B = (0.0044i - A - 3.5C)/2 C = (0.0044i - A - 2B)/3.5 This can be solved with some multivariate calculus, which I haven't done in forever (and don't have the texts for). Maybe even some linear algebra could do it... but the fact remains that this is solvable, as long as you have some "landmark value" of infinity, and consistent ratios exist. Now, there are infinite layers of the abyss, some percentage of which are infinite in size. Thus, since there's some percent chance of demonic encounters in any layer of the Abyss, the Abyss far outpopulates (by infinite ratios) the entirety of the multiverse. There must be some sort of explanation as to why the hordes of the Abyss don't overrun everybody. I guess one way to look at it is this: Is there is a front-line of [outsiders from plane X] that can be designed such that any random mix of marauding demons in range of the front-line will not survive long enough to harm the [outsiders from plane X] front-line? If so, then it's all good. I mean if some force or defense could be designed to essentially hold the line forever, that's all there is to it: The demons cannot conquer that place, no matter how much they outnumber the defenders. There's also the problem of knowing where to attack. You can only assault a place from known entrances. Nobody in D&D is omniscient. Sure, there may be some ratio of demons who can plane shift, know of any location to aim for (and land 5-500 miles away from) on that plane and are willing to plane shift there. The fact that the prime hasn't been overrun must mean that the ratio of these will&able demons is very small compared to the amount of space in the Prime. It's all ratios. The "state" of the cosmology, as it exists, can be preserved. All that must be done is to think about (and devise a ruling for) the unwritten ratios of cosmological factors in relation to each other. The RAW says some plane of the Abyss is infinite, but if all other non-Abyssal planes are i^2, where i is the size of that abyssal plane, then that plane is still insignificant by comparison. Both the abyssal plane of size i and the vastly larger plane of size i^2 but in the book they are just listed (correctly) as "infinite" in size. There are only really three ways to resolve the paradox presented in RAW: A) Nothing is infinite, including the planes.* B) All the infinite Outsiders perfectly cancel each other out, making Outsiders irrelevant. C) Ignore RAW. *Alternatively, it could be said that the planes are infinite, but there are not an infinite number of mortals/outsiders. This does not particularly make sense however, and requires a bit of C) to make work.You were arguing that RAW doesn't justify my ideas (and evidence has started to prove you incorrect). Now you argue that the RAW is worth ignoring (absurd?) or that Outsiders are irrelevant (which goes against RAW). So you reject the only RAW that properly describes the cosmology? This implies alot more than the inclusion of infinity (which RAW itself includes).
Alienfreak 12-22-06, 05:47 PM	Suppose that, for every 1000 Hound Archons, there is one available who can summon Hound Archons. Each summoning spell calls (A x 1)+(B x 1d3)+(C x 1d4+1) = A+2B+3.5C Hound Archons, where {A + B + C} = {total number of summoners}, and A, B and C are respective amount of (infinite) summoners that can cast Summon Monster V, VI and VII. There are the prime and at least 7 inherently evil planes where evil summoners can dwell. Im really too lazy to count all the planes inside planes which are also infinite in size. And its your opinion that for every 1000 hound archons there is one summoner who can summon one. There is no proof anywhere for that. But that calculation of yours is flawed in its basics ...
malignor 12-22-06, 05:54 PM	There are the prime and at least 7 inherently evil planes where evil summoners can dwell. Im really too lazy to count all the planes inside planes which are also infinite in size.I addressed that with some editing. Read the 2nd half of my post or think about it yourself, if you please.And its your opinion that for every 1000 hound archons there is one summoner who can summon one. There is no proof anywhere for that.I never said it was true, I just fabricated the assumption for the sake of illustration.But that calculation of yours is flawed in its basics ...Elucidate me.
redraven 12-22-06, 08:32 PM	And you were so close to having me believe that you understood infinity. It is a pity. Perhaps you would like to find someone with a math background and deal of patience and try asking them a few questions. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on how I am incorrect rather than simply stating "you are incorrect" and expecting me take your conclusion on face value? By contrast, Malignor actually put some numbers to this debate to illustrate where I may or may not have been incorrect, and thus actually contributing to the debate rather than taking up space. Of course, all of his/her numbers are purely hypothetical and not supported in the rules at all, but that is still leaps and bounds more meaningful than your most recent posts. You were arguing that RAW doesn't justify my ideas (and evidence has started to prove you incorrect). Now you argue that the RAW is worth ignoring (absurd?) or that Outsiders are irrelevant (which goes against RAW). So you reject the only RAW that properly describes the cosmology? This implies alot more than the inclusion of infinity (which RAW itself includes). I am starting to conclude that you take my arguments out of context intentionally, rather than this simply being, what? The fifth accident? I was (quite clearly) referring to the "infinity paradox" and RAW cosmology in the quoted paragraph, not the state of RAW in general or even in other specific areas. What makes this even more ridiculous is you stating "and evidence has started to prove you incorrect," which means what exactly? Where is said evidence? What is said evidence? I mean, even if you are 100% in the Infinite celestials scenario (which I do not believe you are), that still makes the hound archon revenge scenario you outlined completely inconsistent - consistency being one of the defining criteria everyone has agreed is necessary. Effectively infinite forces of good only drop an EL 9 strike force against Bob? Why? If they actually viewed him as a threat to their control of the cosmos (or whatever), they would logically send enough forces to ensure his death if available resources are irrelevant. I have gone over all of this before. In any case, this thread now on page 10, I have some found some textual basis for one of the assumptions that have hitherto gone unsupported. This meaningfully impacts the argument at large: Outsiders cannot Plane Shift to the Material Plane. Spelled out in black and white on page 42 of the Manual of the Planes. Outsiders and Elementals can only enter the Material Plane through permanent portals or by being summoned via native persons on the Material Plane. This means that Reggie cannot aid Jimmy at all, and the availability of a hound archon being able to reach the Material Plane for revenge is entirely the realm of DM fiat considering such permanent portals are not presumed by RAW. There are two caveats: some elementals can get to the Prime via elemental vortexes, and Outsiders already on the Ethereal Plane can sometimes possess mortals to "get to" the Prime.
archcomponent 12-22-06, 08:55 PM	Perhaps you would like to elaborate on how I am incorrect rather than simply stating "you are incorrect" and expecting me take your conclusion on face value? It is not just that you are incorrect, you do not understand the concept of infinity and how to apply it to the situation. I am not a math teacher, and the idea of teaching a willful, obstinate, or obtuse student does not thrill me. "The RAW states that the planes are infinite and populated with a certain density." "Infinity versus infinity is a paradox! Therefore, we have to abandon RAW!" There is nothing I 'need' to prove there. You are making an assertive statement that is unfounded and based on a gross misunderstanding of infinity. It is a paradox? Why? Please, can you even articulate how this represents a paradox? Try to put this into your head: An infinite plane of water remains full of H2O. Do you get what that means? I do not know if you have access to some course material or a math professor, but you may want to ask one about these things. Effectively infinite forces of good only drop an EL 9 strike force against Bob? Why? If they actually viewed him as a threat to their control of the cosmos (or whatever), they would logically send enough forces to ensure his death if available resources are irrelevant. This shows that you do not, in fact, understand the ramifications of what malignor stated, especially since you prefaced it with an acceptance of his basic premise. Maybe you just missed something simple - how many Bobs are there?
malignor 12-22-06, 10:14 PM	Outsiders cannot Plane Shift to the Material Plane. Spelled out in black and white on page 42 of the Manual of the Planes. Outsiders and Elementals can only enter the Material Plane through permanent portals or by being summoned via native persons on the Material Plane. This means that Reggie cannot aid Jimmy at all, and the availability of a hound archon being able to reach the Material Plane for revenge is entirely the realm of DM fiat considering such permanent portals are not presumed by RAW. There are two caveats: some elementals can get to the Prime via elemental vortexes, and Outsiders already on the Ethereal Plane can sometimes possess mortals to "get to" the Prime.Very nice. Something solid to work with! This certainly makes things interesting, as now Jimmy requires either mortal intervention or a known, permanent portal to the Material Plane. Based on that alone, you could easily justify never having the Celestial strikeforce event occur. The only way to justify it is via known portals, which would likely require a Planar Knowledge check (from friend) or Bardic Knowledge check (if has a friend w/ Bard levels) or Loremaster's Lore check (if has a friend w/ Loremaster levels) from the Hound Archon. All these checks (likely) require DM fiat for the Archon to even know someone that can access this information. Now, it seems, I have a real challenge that makes sense. I need to prove that there are permanent portals to the Material Planes, and that Hound Archons have a real chance of accessing the knowledge of these portals. This isn't over, but I'm happier than ever that it's become a more firm argument of sensibilities in at least one regard.
redraven 12-22-06, 10:43 PM	It is not just that you are incorrect, you do not understand the concept of infinity and how to apply it to the situation. I am not a math teacher, and the idea of teaching a willful, obstinate, or obtuse student does not thrill me. I suppose that at least answers the "Are you willing to elaborate?" question. "The RAW states that the planes are infinite and populated with a certain density." "Infinity versus infinity is a paradox! Therefore, we have to abandon RAW!" That absolutely sums up my argument. :rolleyes: There is nothing I 'need' to prove there. You are making an assertive statement that is unfounded and based on a gross misunderstanding of infinity. It is a paradox? Why? Please, can you even articulate how this represents a paradox? Yes, there is something you need to prove here: namely, that I am "making an assertive statement that is unfounded and based on a gross misunderstanding of infinity." I have no reason to accept such a claim on face value. If you have no desire to prove the claim, then there is no reason for having made it. It would be like responding to something you said earlier: Such a brazen act made by a 9th level wizard, a power to make the planes take notice, should end in his swift dispatch in the hands of those he would profane. That is the fate of such a vile creature. ...and responding with "You are making an assertive statement that is unfounded and based on a gross misunderstanding of the forces of good and their ability to interact with other planes." Then leaving it like that, no explanations. In other words, completely useless. Try to put this into your head: An infinite plane of water remains full of H2O. Do you get what that means? I do not know if you have access to some course material or a math professor, but you may want to ask one about these things. I get what it means, but not how it is relevant. Unless you are implicitly stating that there cannot be, for example, an infinite amount of celestials since they would, by virtue of their quantity, have to fill up the entire volume of the infinite space on their infinite plane. In which case, I ask how does that weaken my argument that there cannot be infinite celestials/outsiders? This shows that you do not, in fact, understand the ramifications of what malignor stated, especially since you prefaced it with an acceptance of his basic premise. Maybe you just missed something simple - how many Bobs are there? How many Bobs? Indeterminable. How many evil spellcasters willing and capable of summoning hound archons to slaughter orphans? In an Infinite scenario there are, well, an infinite number of them.
malignor 12-22-06, 10:59 PM	Update: I've just read over page 42 of the Manual of the Planes. RAW says that outsiders can only get into the material plane via portals, possessing mortals or by being conjured by mortals. End of story. Also, to make matters more interesting, portals that lead to the material plane are, by default, sealed or guarded by the Material residents... as per the RAW again. So, with this information, I conclude that there is no guaranteed way that a standard Jimmy (Hound Archon) can get to the Material Plane to bring Bob (vile arcane summoner) to justice. Jimmy can only act against Bob is via social means, hopefully getting someone who is in contact with a mortal worshipper to inform them of what Jimmy witnessed (and was forced to do under Bob's control). If Jimmy really gets what he wants, he'll be conjured via summoning or calling to personally get involved. It would be pure coincidence, and provoke skepticism, if Jimmy "just so happened" to have knowledge or associates that give him the means to get to Bob very easily. That would be a contrived DM fiat situation, unless the DM rolled and gave the summoned Hound Archon a slim chance of having such assets as provide him the means to get to the Material Plane (under his own power) in the first place.
archcomponent 12-22-06, 11:10 PM	Unless you are implicitly stating that there cannot be, for example, an infinite amount of celestials since they would, by virtue of their quantity, I would say you almost had it there, but not really. Try this: how many hydrogen atoms are there for each oxygen atom?
Alienfreak 12-23-06, 08:33 AM	Update: I've just read over page 42 of the Manual of the Planes. RAW says that outsiders can only get into the material plane via portals, possessing mortals or by being conjured by mortals. End of story. Also, to make matters more interesting, portals that lead to the material plane are, by default, sealed or guarded by the Material residents... as per the RAW again. So, with this information, I conclude that there is no guaranteed way that a standard Jimmy (Hound Archon) can get to the Material Plane to bring Bob (vile arcane summoner) to justice. Jimmy can only act against Bob is via social means, hopefully getting someone who is in contact with a mortal worshipper to inform them of what Jimmy witnessed (and was forced to do under Bob's control). If Jimmy really gets what he wants, he'll be conjured via summoning or calling to personally get involved. It would be pure coincidence, and provoke skepticism, if Jimmy "just so happened" to have knowledge or associates that give him the means to get to Bob very easily. That would be a contrived DM fiat situation, unless the DM rolled and gave the summoned Hound Archon a slim chance of having such assets as provide him the means to get to the Material Plane (under his own power) in the first place. I tried to make that clear in my 1st post. If it would be that easy to find a permanent portal to the prime why dont the Tana'Ri just all go there ... its not like they wouldnt like to. And a open portal to the outer planes is sometimes a great threat to the realms and the mortals try to destroy those (see hellgate keep). The problem of jimmy is: He is only a low ranking celestial (not much ressources to rely on). Its very hard to get to the prime (and his superiors have better things to do than wasting their ultra secret portals for such causes). And if he is on the prime its very dangerous for himself :)
malignor 12-23-06, 11:40 AM	Well, in conclusion, I'd say a fair way to handle it is for the DM to roll %. If you roll really low, Jimmy can do something. I'd houserule a table thus: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ROLL = TIME TO REACH MATERIAL PLANE = = - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = = 01 = 2d12-1 hours (1-23 hours) = = 02-03 = 1d6 days = = 04-07 = 1d4 weeks = = 08-15 = 1d12 months = = 16-31 = 1d10 years = = 32-63 = 1d10 decades = = 64-00 = 1d10 centuries = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =Time to Reach Material Plane is the time it takes for the Archon to find and secure the means to access the Material Plane in some way, usually (75% of the time) by just communication with a mortal (such as a Cleric or Paladin of Lawful Good alignment, while they dream or meditate or pray), or occasionally (25% of the time) getting access to a portal to come personally. Note that, often, by the time the Archon can communicate or travel to the Material Plane, the summoner's trail is so cold as to be all but untraceable (if the summoner is still alive, years to centuries later). So at most, there is only a 3% chance of locating an adventuring Summoner (gone in a matter of days at most), but up to a 31% chance of locating an established summoner (lives in the same place for years). A second d100 roll should also be made, and, if it is lower than the first roll (made on the table), then the Archon will be under circumstances where they will not or can not act against the summoner. Either because they know it is fruitless, or they have other obligations that make them unable to do anything about it.
Azarias 12-23-06, 02:25 PM	archcomponent: stop posturing. malignor: kudos on conceding the (general) point with grace. If a DM were determined to allow summoned memory, a table like that wouldn't be a bad idea: but there are problems with it as given. Essentially the hound archon is between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand portals are extraordinarily rare and heavily guarded unles otherwise described: on the other, a servant of Lawful Goodness inevitably has many, many obligations. If Jimmy were CG this might be less of an issue, but he is a living emobodiment not only of Good, but of Law. So: the portals make the prospect of reaching the Prime in hours or days impracticable; and the obligations make anything more than hours or days extremely unlikely. For those reasons, I'd hazard the hound only makes it through to the Prime on two rolls of 00...and at that point you don't really need a table. Furthermore, there is now a whole complex story coming into play (is the hound neglecting its obligations? Did it harm innocent Primes to break through the portal? Has its narrow-minded destruction of wards allowed powerful infernal forces a way to the Prime via Celestia?) that once again make this a one-off event: not something that can or should be repeated multiple times in a single campaign.
Alienfreak 12-23-06, 03:32 PM	:cheer: Azarias got it...
malignor 12-23-06, 04:28 PM	If a DM were determined to allow summoned memory, a table like that wouldn't be a bad idea: but there are problems with it as given. Essentially the hound archon is between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand portals are extraordinarily rare and heavily guarded unles otherwise described: on the other, a servant of Lawful Goodness inevitably has many, many obligations. If Jimmy were CG this might be less of an issue, but he is a living emobodiment not only of Good, but of Law. - Summoned Memory is a legitimate factor, as implied by the summoning variant in the DMG. It takes the summoned memory for granted (not as a specific component of the variant itself) in a provided example. - True, portals are rare. Hence why there is such a small chance that Jimmy would have knowledge or or access to such a portal anytime soon. Jimmy certainly has friends, and one may "know a guy" who guards this side of the portal. Or Jimmy may get 5 seconds of a LG minor deity's time and convince him to help in some way. Jimmy and almost everyone he knows has an existence where planar travel (via conjuration from aliens) is a relevant factor of their life. - Those guarding a portal to Celestia are likely those that won't let badguys into Celestia, not the other way around. It's conceivable that a portal to Celestia may be guarded by evil being in an evil society that want to avoid the "annoyance" of divine judgement, but I think this would be the exception rather than the norm. - The many obligations of LG outsiders is speculative at best. It's also why more often than not, it takes years before Jimmy can bother trying anything, and by then he probably will realize it's pointless as the trail is long lost.So: the portals make the prospect of reaching the Prime in hours or days impracticable; and the obligations make anything more than hours or days extremely unlikely.Like I said, 25% of 3%... so 0.75%. The remaining 2.25% is for Jimmy to be able to get word down to the Prime within the next week, to some LG divinely powered mortals, so they can hunt down Bob.For those reasons, I'd hazard the hound only makes it through to the Prime on two rolls of 00...and at that point you don't really need a table. Furthermore, there is now a whole complex story coming into play (is the hound neglecting its obligations? Did it harm innocent Primes to break through the portal? Has its narrow-minded destruction of wards allowed powerful infernal forces a way to the Prime via Celestia?) that once again make this a one-off event: not something that can or should be repeated multiple times in a single campaign.Bob would have to do alot of Archon abuse before it would bite him from behind, statistically speaking. Anyway, houserule.
HawkTheOne-Handed 12-23-06, 05:10 PM	No planar binding spell can make a properly played/DMed Celestial perform an evil act (same for Gated creatures). "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." I'd walk out on any game in which a DM allows a player to convince a non-summoned good outsider to commit an obviously evil act, even if it planned on taking revenge later to somehow cleanse itself of the misdeed. I wish I still had the link to something that referenced the original situation here. As far as I can remember, trying to get an aligned summoned outsider to do something that obviously conflicts with its alignment and racial goals causes the spell to end was the ruling. Don't know if it was an official response, a house ruling or something from a Dragon Magazine. I guess an evil outsider would perform as commanded, all the while perverting the caster's orders. They would also follow a good caster's commands, hoping to further pervert a good caster (casting an evil spell continuously will lead to an alignment shift as the caster calls on the forces of evil to do his bidding). Remember to not metagame folks. You can't use a summons abilities if you don't know what they are.
Azarias 12-24-06, 10:38 AM	Hawk - the OP concerns a Summons spell. What you'd do about a planar binding is irrelevant, since planar bindings aren't summons. (and incidentally, I suspect anyone here would agree with you about the dangers of trying to command a called archon to commit evil). If you find your reference - and it applies to Summons, not *Callings* - then that would be very interesting. Mal - come, my friend, you're clutching at straws now! (1) there remains no core ruling on the existence or absence of summoned memory. Allowing either is a houserule. (2) even if you do allow memory as a DM, there is no normal way that a summons like Jimmy will find its summoner on the Prime within the time-frame of a normal campaign. As DM you can allow abnormal events - an audience with a superior, a friend on the portal, heck, an audience with a god if you really want to - but what you are allowing is extraordinary and abnormal, ie. it is not the norm. Normal Result (i): Jimmy remembers nothing of his summons. He does not seek his Summoner. Normal Result (ii): Jimmy remembers his summons. He cannot find the Summoner. Result (iii): Jimmy remembers his summons, and something extraordinary happens - he is granted leave to seek the summoner (!), reaches the correct Prime Material (!!), finds some trace of the summoner (!!!) and finally locates him (!!!!) Again: (iii) is an extraordinary event. Memory or not, the default is that Jimmy does not find the Summoner. You could do (iii) maybe once in a campaign, maybe once in a couple of campaigns. Anything more than that stretches the boundaries of credulity. And in all three cases the end result for the Summoner is pretty much the same, give or take an archon or two. Even if (iii) occurs once in a blue moon, it's not going to stop him summoning Jimmys to kill orphans.
d4rkarch0n 12-24-06, 12:48 PM	Well, Im not into DMing, I'm a player only, but... ...could a "Lawfull Good" spell be used to slaughter innocent orphans? As it says in the Summon that the Spell gains the descriptor of the summoned creature... I'm not sure if a Lawfull Good spell should be able to do that kind of atrocity :weep:
savant_warlord13 12-24-06, 05:34 PM	So...I would say that the helpless orphans cannot would not be considered as opponents from the point of view of the Hound Archon and unless your caster knows celestial (at which point I wonder why he is killing orphans) he can't direct the archon to "perform other actions" Orcus speaks Celestial
Azarias 12-24-06, 08:44 PM	d4rkarch0n: don't blame the tool, blame the workman (or better still, don't blame the workman either: if this particular workman is a CE sorcerer, killing orphans is no bad thing in rp terms). In crunchy terms, aligned spell descriptors are there to restrict divine casters a wee bit. The thing here is that the caster isn't divine, so the descriptor isn't an issue. As it turns out, the memory/forgetfulness of the hound archon summons isn't much of an issue either, since he won't as a rule (ie normally; I'm not suggesting this is a RAW rule) have a chance to locate his summoner. Just out of interest, what do those DMs who dislike the orphan-killing Jimmy make of Eberron? (a setting I like very much, in part because of its noirish moral ambiguity)
Nezkrul 12-25-06, 11:19 AM	i retract my negative attitude towards you, malignor, sorry. since the memory thing is taken for granted in the rules, it is safe to say (for simplicity) summons do remember what they do for X x 6 seconds on the prime. and we know outsiders can't planeshift to the prime; they must physically walk there through permanent portals or get gated or planar binded/allied, or summoned. Jimmy would logically try to get word to servants of his patron deity of Bob's actions. Jimmy would most likely not try to find his way to the prime physically, as this would be very difficult to accomplish, and being on the prime physically brings its own inherent dangers. Bob continues his evil ways, just as countless other evil mortals have done before him and will do after him; but if Bob is dumb or doesn't care, he wouldn't think that SOMEONE would be out to get him. If the credible threat of being brought to justice/being hounded by forces of good doesn't curb his evil ways for at least a little while, it makes those servants of Jimmy's Daddy have an easier time finding Bob and confronting him. I agree that the first offense resulting in Bob's death at the hands of overpowering Celestials that are physically on the prime is a bit much; but I also agree that his evil ways won't go unnoticed (no matter what creature Bob uses to do the deed, those dead kids will most likely become Petitioners; and all of em showing up at once on some Good deity's doorstep will likely result in a "wtf? someone find out what happened to them NOW". Other than all this, summon spells shouldn't be too much of a headache, they are the most basic conjuration (summoning) spells. They don't bring the creature physically here, and they have a very short duration; with limits on the summons abilities.
Azar_of_Faerun 01-16-07, 04:38 AM	Killing the orphans? Weak Have the Hound Archon eat them alive, much more humiliating
Nephlite 01-16-07, 10:52 AM	Killing the orphans? Weak Have the Hound Archon eat them alive, much more humiliating But Outsiders don't need to eat. Can they eat...?
Alienfreak 01-16-07, 03:52 PM	They can if they want.
strange_person 05-30-07, 09:53 PM	I would like to point out that a grown man with a large axe who just finished murdering his own parents would, technically, be an orphan, and that a hound archon would have no qualms about attacking such a person.
Malek2991 05-30-07, 11:12 PM	But Outsiders don't need to eat. Can they eat...? I don't know about Archons but the Fiendish Codex I states Demons (also Outsiders) can eat stuff without any problems. About the Topic: Using the RAW most likely the Hound Archon will Slaughter the Orphans and be very angry at the caster about it. But someone earlier had a point there is no Save or Spell Resistance vs a summoning spell so allowing a creature to loose his exhaulted status and force him to atone for his actions while controlled is a little excessive since there was no possible way for him to avoid the control. My houserule:Any Spellcaster can not use a good spell to commit an evil act. (This is implied by Book of Exhalted deeds but not explicitly stated.) Summoning a Good creature is a Good Spell so it would not work. If attempted the Good Creature would simply ignore the order. Side Note: I don't think any sane evil wizard would do this, since even if the Celestials don't enact revenge for this, why willingly invite their wrath, if the evil wizard simply fireballs the orphans the Hound Archon probably would not even know about it let alone go hunting down the wizard.
Pentar 05-30-07, 11:42 PM	One question; not sure if anyone has asked it... Are the orphans evil? :D :devil: :evillaugh
strenoth 05-31-07, 01:54 AM	question, re: is a OUTSIDER and thus he cant planeshift to the prime. Um, where in the rules does it say this? I have never heard of this before.