"I polymorph into an Ormyrr" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"I polymorph into an Ormyrr" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Midge
07-17-04, 08:32 AM The dreaded line that any DM hates to hear... the player just having looked it up in the book realises its huge and has 26STR can constrict and grab

Its not the fact we dont want him to use polymorph its just trawling though the book is well 'metagaming'

Instead of your DM just daying 'Banned'

Here are some house rules we have put in place to help

You can Polymorph / AlterSelf / Wildshape into any creature you have knowledge of based upon a Knowledge Skill Check of appropriate type.

DC = 10+HD

Modifiers to the DC number Required (important)

Interacted with / Fought / Can Summon -10 to DC required
Seen -5 " "
Researched 0 " "
character has heard of +5 " "
rumour /legend / +10 " "

example - Labraid the sorceror has seen, and fought a treant the DC is 10+7hd (17) -10 Mod which is a DC check of 7 - easy

So the roll is a DC7 check on knowledge Nature

In our game we also dont like the fact that outsider are the only ones that can change into outsiders and so...

Outsider +10 to DC required
Elemental +10 " "
If you are the same sub type 0 to DC required

Just some house rules for people to mull over

Midge
Egres
07-17-04, 08:59 AM Only one thing:

From the SRD:
Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Midge
07-17-04, 09:01 AM Within the rules boundary of course ;)
Egres
07-17-04, 09:08 AM Well,if the problem come out due to that huge monster,the RAW were a good reply.;)
Seeker95
07-17-04, 12:02 PM Within the rules as written on creature selection limitations, I like the approach your DM has instituted. But I disagree with some of the specific mechanics.

I would not include the monster HD in the DC. As you get more powerful, it makes sense that the creatures with which you are familiar with will also grow more powerful. I would set the base DC at a fixed number (20 or 25?). Reduce the DC based on number of encounters with, and number of successful previous changes.

Allow skills to not change the DC, but rather to modify the roll.

And others may be able to come up with even better DC modification lists.
Someone
07-17-04, 12:45 PM Whats an Ormyrr? No, seriously, I've never heard of it before. Is it from one of the MM add-ons?

It should be enough for the DM to say "no, you can't turn into that because they don't exist." or "no, you can't turn into an equivalent because I don't think its fair."

And if you really wanted to be a constricing looney, shapechange into a marilith. :twitch:
DrMorganes
07-17-04, 12:51 PM This has been covered in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a) Rules of the Game article on the main site. Part 3 covers the specifics of Polymorph.
Zherog
07-17-04, 02:11 PM Originally posted by Midge
DC = 10+HD

Modifiers to the DC number Required (important)

Interacted with / Fought / Can Summon -10 to DC required
Seen -5 " "
Researched 0 " "
character has heard of +5 " "
rumour /legend / +10 " "

As these rules are written, it's actually easier to polymorph into a creature you've never heard of than one you have. Yeah, I know - asking to turn into something you've never heard of is kind of an oxymoron. It wouldn't surprise me to see people try it, though. A simple, "If you have never heard of the creature you cannot even attempt a check." statement resolves the issue.
Lokiyn
07-17-04, 03:31 PM Originally posted by Zherog
As these rules are written, it's actually easier to polymorph into a creature you've never heard of than one you have. Yeah, I know - asking to turn into something you've never heard of is kind of an oxymoron. It wouldn't surprise me to see people try it, though. A simple, "If you have never heard of the creature you cannot even attempt a check." statement resolves the issue.

??????
the modifiers are to what you need to roll not what you roll i'm confused on how this makes it harder to turn into a creature you've never heard of. if you've never heard of it you cant change into it thats pretty much raw
Seeker95
07-17-04, 05:38 PM Originally posted by Lokiyn
??????
the modifiers are to what you need to roll not what you roll i'm confused on how this makes it harder to turn into a creature you've never heard of. if you've never heard of it you cant change into it thats pretty much raw Because you described everything as the DC, to know the creature, and your modifiers made the DC easier if you just know of the creature rather than attacking it.

Negative modifiers to a DC make it easier.
Negative modifiers make it harder.

Your language focused on the DC, not the skill check.
DungeonMaster
07-17-04, 05:46 PM The sage has a set of articles on the main website in "rules of the game" I beleive that describe polymorphing in detail. You can by his reconing polymorph into huge creatures - there is none of this dubious inheritance pattern from alter self.
The 3rd edition polymorph other spell has the specific size restriction hard coded into the spell description.

Shapeshifting magic and abilities are by and large the bane of 3rd edition and 3.5 alike. It requires strict DM management to keep the game in line and merely handing the players non-core monster books is never a good idea in this DM's opinion. The core books are on average better but often require a DM tweak here or there (like size limitations for one) to avoid it being too powerful for it's level.

4th level magic is powerful though, you shouldn't knock it too much.
Seeker95
07-17-04, 05:49 PM By the way. An ormyrr is a creature from Pool of Radience, the computer game. It looks amazingly like a cross between Jabba the Hut and a Delver.
J. Grenemyer
07-17-04, 07:14 PM Hello Midge,

First off, a DM should make clear that no material beyond the 3.5 MM is included in his game, unless he says otherwise; where “saying otherwise” means to use a new creature in an encounter or make its presence known in game.

Second, characters shouldn’t be forced to make checks for creatures they’ve encountered. This is (IMO) a waste of game time because it forces an extra step to spellcasting and also serves to not reward players for previously facing (and surviving) encounters with monsters. Moreover, it would really suck to be able to turn into a Treant one day and then not turn into one later.

As for setting DCs, either 10+HD or 10+CR is generally the best way to go.

:D
Draco Argentum
07-18-04, 02:06 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
By the way. An ormyrr is a creature from Pool of Radience, the computer game. It looks amazingly like a cross between Jabba the Hut and a Delver.

Its also in MM2.
Midge
07-18-04, 04:54 AM Thanks for all the comments.... the one about CR instead of HD is a good one cheers

The reason to change the DC not the Skill check is so that people can poly into common creatures even if they dont have any ranks in the knowledge

" Anyone can use a Knowlege skill untrained if the information is common ie 10DC or less "

I know its easy to just ban stuff from other books... but some creatures are good an interesting to use... and I like the fact that the part gain a bit of knowledge from each encounter and can use it in the future

Midge
Bloodtide_the_Red
07-18-04, 05:43 AM So is this skill check a once in a life time one? Or every time they use the spell to 'remember' the creature?

In any case, nerfing a spell by a skill check may not work out the way you planed. Now, adding this to an current game will work in the short run. The 7th level Sor has concentration/listen/spot/search all maxed out, but only has a plus four in Kn. Well, you've gleefuly stopped him from polymoping into much. However, it will only take a couple of levels for him to fix that.
Then comes starting from scratch. If the player knows they will need lots of pluses in a skill, they will simply dump them in. You might think this 'fair' as it's the players choice, though you are forcing him to do it in any case. So our 7th level spellcaster can easly have +12(10 ranks and 2 from Int) in knowladge(whatever-you-say-he-needs). And that's the mimium. Toss in Skill Focus and Fox's Cunning and you get +19. So he will make most of his rolls.
So after a short time, the character is changing into whatever again. So what do you do? Come out with another rule for them to get around?

BT

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Midge 07-17-04, 08:32 AM	The dreaded line that any DM hates to hear... the player just having looked it up in the book realises its huge and has 26STR can constrict and grab Its not the fact we dont want him to use polymorph its just trawling though the book is well 'metagaming' Instead of your DM just daying 'Banned' Here are some house rules we have put in place to help You can Polymorph / AlterSelf / Wildshape into any creature you have knowledge of based upon a Knowledge Skill Check of appropriate type. DC = 10+HD Modifiers to the DC number Required (important) Interacted with / Fought / Can Summon -10 to DC required Seen -5 " " Researched 0 " " character has heard of +5 " " rumour /legend / +10 " " example - Labraid the sorceror has seen, and fought a treant the DC is 10+7hd (17) -10 Mod which is a DC check of 7 - easy So the roll is a DC7 check on knowledge Nature In our game we also dont like the fact that outsider are the only ones that can change into outsiders and so... Outsider +10 to DC required Elemental +10 " " If you are the same sub type 0 to DC required Just some house rules for people to mull over Midge
Egres 07-17-04, 08:59 AM	Only one thing: From the SRD: Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Material Component: An empty cocoon. Alter Self Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Midge 07-17-04, 09:01 AM	Within the rules boundary of course ;)
Egres 07-17-04, 09:08 AM	Well,if the problem come out due to that huge monster,the RAW were a good reply.;)
Seeker95 07-17-04, 12:02 PM	Within the rules as written on creature selection limitations, I like the approach your DM has instituted. But I disagree with some of the specific mechanics. I would not include the monster HD in the DC. As you get more powerful, it makes sense that the creatures with which you are familiar with will also grow more powerful. I would set the base DC at a fixed number (20 or 25?). Reduce the DC based on number of encounters with, and number of successful previous changes. Allow skills to not change the DC, but rather to modify the roll. And others may be able to come up with even better DC modification lists.
Someone 07-17-04, 12:45 PM	Whats an Ormyrr? No, seriously, I've never heard of it before. Is it from one of the MM add-ons? It should be enough for the DM to say "no, you can't turn into that because they don't exist." or "no, you can't turn into an equivalent because I don't think its fair." And if you really wanted to be a constricing looney, shapechange into a marilith. :twitch:
DrMorganes 07-17-04, 12:51 PM	This has been covered in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a) Rules of the Game article on the main site. Part 3 covers the specifics of Polymorph.
Zherog 07-17-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by Midge DC = 10+HD Modifiers to the DC number Required (important) Interacted with / Fought / Can Summon -10 to DC required Seen -5 " " Researched 0 " " character has heard of +5 " " rumour /legend / +10 " " As these rules are written, it's actually easier to polymorph into a creature you've never heard of than one you have. Yeah, I know - asking to turn into something you've never heard of is kind of an oxymoron. It wouldn't surprise me to see people try it, though. A simple, "If you have never heard of the creature you cannot even attempt a check." statement resolves the issue.
Lokiyn 07-17-04, 03:31 PM	Originally posted by Zherog As these rules are written, it's actually easier to polymorph into a creature you've never heard of than one you have. Yeah, I know - asking to turn into something you've never heard of is kind of an oxymoron. It wouldn't surprise me to see people try it, though. A simple, "If you have never heard of the creature you cannot even attempt a check." statement resolves the issue. ?????? the modifiers are to what you need to roll not what you roll i'm confused on how this makes it harder to turn into a creature you've never heard of. if you've never heard of it you cant change into it thats pretty much raw
Seeker95 07-17-04, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by Lokiyn ?????? the modifiers are to what you need to roll not what you roll i'm confused on how this makes it harder to turn into a creature you've never heard of. if you've never heard of it you cant change into it thats pretty much raw Because you described everything as the DC, to know the creature, and your modifiers made the DC easier if you just know of the creature rather than attacking it. Negative modifiers to a DC make it easier. Negative modifiers make it harder. Your language focused on the DC, not the skill check.
DungeonMaster 07-17-04, 05:46 PM	The sage has a set of articles on the main website in "rules of the game" I beleive that describe polymorphing in detail. You can by his reconing polymorph into huge creatures - there is none of this dubious inheritance pattern from alter self. The 3rd edition polymorph other spell has the specific size restriction hard coded into the spell description. Shapeshifting magic and abilities are by and large the bane of 3rd edition and 3.5 alike. It requires strict DM management to keep the game in line and merely handing the players non-core monster books is never a good idea in this DM's opinion. The core books are on average better but often require a DM tweak here or there (like size limitations for one) to avoid it being too powerful for it's level. 4th level magic is powerful though, you shouldn't knock it too much.
Seeker95 07-17-04, 05:49 PM	By the way. An ormyrr is a creature from Pool of Radience, the computer game. It looks amazingly like a cross between Jabba the Hut and a Delver.
J. Grenemyer 07-17-04, 07:14 PM	Hello Midge, First off, a DM should make clear that no material beyond the 3.5 MM is included in his game, unless he says otherwise; where “saying otherwise” means to use a new creature in an encounter or make its presence known in game. Second, characters shouldn’t be forced to make checks for creatures they’ve encountered. This is (IMO) a waste of game time because it forces an extra step to spellcasting and also serves to not reward players for previously facing (and surviving) encounters with monsters. Moreover, it would really suck to be able to turn into a Treant one day and then not turn into one later. As for setting DCs, either 10+HD or 10+CR is generally the best way to go. :D
Draco Argentum 07-18-04, 02:06 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 By the way. An ormyrr is a creature from Pool of Radience, the computer game. It looks amazingly like a cross between Jabba the Hut and a Delver. Its also in MM2.
Midge 07-18-04, 04:54 AM	Thanks for all the comments.... the one about CR instead of HD is a good one cheers The reason to change the DC not the Skill check is so that people can poly into common creatures even if they dont have any ranks in the knowledge " Anyone can use a Knowlege skill untrained if the information is common ie 10DC or less " I know its easy to just ban stuff from other books... but some creatures are good an interesting to use... and I like the fact that the part gain a bit of knowledge from each encounter and can use it in the future Midge
Bloodtide_the_Red 07-18-04, 05:43 AM	So is this skill check a once in a life time one? Or every time they use the spell to 'remember' the creature? In any case, nerfing a spell by a skill check may not work out the way you planed. Now, adding this to an current game will work in the short run. The 7th level Sor has concentration/listen/spot/search all maxed out, but only has a plus four in Kn. Well, you've gleefuly stopped him from polymoping into much. However, it will only take a couple of levels for him to fix that. Then comes starting from scratch. If the player knows they will need lots of pluses in a skill, they will simply dump them in. You might think this 'fair' as it's the players choice, though you are forcing him to do it in any case. So our 7th level spellcaster can easly have +12(10 ranks and 2 from Int) in knowladge(whatever-you-say-he-needs). And that's the mimium. Toss in Skill Focus and Fox's Cunning and you get +19. So he will make most of his rolls. So after a short time, the character is changing into whatever again. So what do you do? Come out with another rule for them to get around? BT