"Practiced spellcaster" I'm not getting this [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Practiced spellcaster" I'm not getting this [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bjorsa
03-17-08, 02:11 PM When I read the description of the feat "Practiced Spellcaster" I get a definite feeling I must have missed something. It says (Complete Arcane) "Your casting level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4" and later "(...)It increases your casting level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells."

So I get to cast all my spells with CL+4? But that means I can go bananas with metamagic effects? As a Sorcerer lev 9 with feats Twin Spell, Empower, Quicken Spell and Arcane Thesis Wings of Flurry I can cast my Wings of Flurry, Quickened & Empowered & Twin Spelled (for a total CL adjustment of 7) and later in the round yet another one with Empower & Twin Spell?

Holy crap that would average (1d6xCLxTwinxEmp=) 3.5x13x2x1.5=136.5 damage as a quick action and then another one later in the round for a bizarre total of 273!?
Pick up Sudden Maximize and we can get 234 damage for that first Quickened Flurry. Just to be sure. Total average 370.5...

This sounds insane. If this is correct, then why aren't you guys going nuts over Practiced Spellcaster? What did I miss? What's the catch? Please correct me!
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-17-08, 02:13 PM Metamagic increases required spell level, not caster level. Practiced Spellcaster does nothing for your limits on number of spell slots available or highest available spell slot level.
Scion of Coldshard
03-17-08, 02:14 PM Caster level increases, but you dont gain extra slots. Plus, the extra caster level boost cannot make your caster level go above your hd.. so a human sorc 9 with no other classes already has a caster level of 9 and so practiced spellcaster will do nothing for him.

Metamagic requires using a higher level slot, having a higher caster level doesnt give you extra slots.
bjorsa
03-17-08, 02:36 PM Aha! No wonder I thought the Metamagic stuff seemed so good. Thank you both for clearing that up!
Belkar
03-17-08, 04:28 PM The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing.

For example, a sorceror 1/fighter 4 would normally only have a couple spells, and (even as a 5th level character) his magic missile is still doing 1d4+1, and his mage armor only lasts 1 hour - since he's still a 1st level caster.

But with Practiced Spellcaster, he still only knows those few spells, but casts them as a 5th level caster. So his mage armor lasts 5 hours, and his magic missiles are 3d4+3 (for 3 missiles). Make sense?
M-bark
03-17-08, 04:53 PM The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing.

And don't forget it's use for templated characters! Put it on a Half-Fiend and suddenly they're a lot better as Wizards.
Nephlite
03-17-08, 06:40 PM The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing.

Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD.
Shular
03-17-08, 07:37 PM And don't forget it's use for templated characters! Put it on a Half-Fiend and suddenly they're a lot better as Wizards.

Not quite. Practiced Spellcaster does not compensate for Level Adjustment, only hit die. So, for example, a Centaur cleric could use PS to compensate for his 4 racial hd, but a bugbear cleric would only benefit for the +3 for HD and not the +1 LA. (Now, if the Bugbear had one level of fighter to go with his cleric level, then he'd get the full benefit of the feat.)
Avihs
03-17-08, 11:27 PM Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD.
Another place it comes in handy is with Prestige Classes that don't have full progression on casting abilities.
bjorsa
03-18-08, 06:25 AM Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD.
Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters?
rjsilverthorn
03-18-08, 06:34 AM Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters?

I don't know if there are others, but here is the wording for the paladin.

Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.
Merestil Haye
03-18-08, 08:31 AM Rangers have the same caster level text as paladins do.
Edymnion
03-18-08, 08:23 PM Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters?Half caster is the term for classes that gain spellcasting abilities later on, namely the Ranger and the Paladin, where they only use half their class level as their caster level. So while an 8th level Paladin might be able to cast a Cure X Wounds spell, the amount he could heal would be the same as a 4th level Cleric (who is a full caster). Practiced Spellcaster means those classes can keep up much more easily.
Speedy
03-23-08, 11:43 PM Not quite. Practiced Spellcaster does not compensate for Level Adjustment, only hit die. So, for example, a Centaur cleric could use PS to compensate for his 4 racial hd, but a bugbear cleric would only benefit for the +3 for HD and not the +1 LA. (Now, if the Bugbear had one level of fighter to go with his cleric level, then he'd get the full benefit of the feat.)

In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6.
groveborn
03-24-08, 02:08 AM Or perhaps a Spell Thief 17/ Warmage 4, also combined with Master Spell Thief (from Complete Scoundral). This would turn an otherwise 8/4 CL into a 16 CL. This makes all sorts of stuff fun. Add in one more practiced spellcaster for warmage, and it's a CL 20. Not too bad for a character with 21 levels split between two classes. Really causes a good punch for the warmage spells too.
Shular
03-24-08, 07:39 AM In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6.

Not sure what you mean. Do racial levels give hit die? As I understand the rules, the +4 LA/2HD sontechild with two levels of sorcerer and practiced spellcaster would be ECL 8 and caster level 4. But racial levels change this? What book is racial levels in and how do they work?
Merestil Haye
03-24-08, 08:11 AM In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6.A racial level is a racial HD.

A bugbear Sorcerer 3, for example is 6th character level but ECL7. The Bugbear's "racial levels" are the 3 humanoid HD he has by virtue of being a bugbear. His level adjustment of +1 is not a "racial level."

If that character were to tale the Practiced Spellcaster feat with his feat at that level, he would have a caster level of 6.

A Stonechild has two racial HD and a +4 LA. Your example Stonechild Sorcerer 2 would have a caster level of 4.
Nezkrul
03-24-08, 09:09 AM another point: remember that this feat only benefits "spellcasting" classes, classes that have magical abilities / caster level (like warlock) do not benefit if they dont cast spells.
Damned slayer
03-24-08, 10:48 AM another point: remember that this feat only benefits "spellcasting" classes, classes that have magical abilities / caster level (like warlock) do not benefit if they dont cast spells.

False
eldritch blast is based on CL like some invocation
Nezkrul
03-24-08, 11:05 AM False
eldritch blast is based on CL like some invocation

completely incorrect, eldritch blast is based off of warlock class level. warlocks do not cast spells, therefore, even though they have a caster level for their invocations, they are not a "spellcasting" class.
Nephlite
03-24-08, 02:49 PM completely incorrect, eldritch blast is based off of warlock class level. warlocks do not cast spells, therefore, even though they have a caster level for their invocations, they are not a "spellcasting" class.

Eldritch blast is based on class, but SR checks are based on caster level. Chilling Tentacles is not based on class, but also caster level.
Speedy
03-24-08, 07:37 PM Not sure what you mean. Do racial levels give hit die? As I understand the rules, the +4 LA/2HD sontechild with two levels of sorcerer and practiced spellcaster would be ECL 8 and caster level 4. But racial levels change this? What book is racial levels in and how do they work?

Oops, sorry, my bad. What I should have called it was the Monster Class, not racial levels - that's something we toss around the table.

THe Monster Class was originally introduced in the Savage Species book and has been carried on through several of the books dedicated to PC races like Races of Stone.
Basically, the Monster Class works the same as a standard class (with certain exceptions) where you take levels in your chosen "creature", thus ignoring Racial Adjustments and allowing a player to play strange and powerful creatures. There are starting stats as normal, and the character gains hit die, skill points, feats, etc. at differnt levels. If a Monster CLass is available for a creature, it is usually in that creature's description, so far as I've seen.

(Yeah, I think my example is a little off, but it was meant for illustrative purposes not a practical example.)
Nezkrul
03-25-08, 10:54 PM WizO_Ginger deleted my post, so I'll keep it clean with this one (i quoted stuff verbatim, thats a no-no)

Practiced Spellcaster says to pick a spellcasting class that you have, and that your spells cast from that class are stronger. A warlock's invocations are spell like abilities, not spells. A warlock does not prepare or spontaneously cast spells, he uses spell-like abilities. Spell-like abilities function similar to spells, in that they have a caster level, but they are not spells.

What this all means is, pick a new feat. It doesn't work for Warlocks. (Read Complete Arcane Warlock class, from front to back, then read the feat.)

However, I'm completely fine with a houserule allowing it to work for them. (as are many DM's)
groveborn
03-26-08, 02:59 AM There are feats to increase the potency of SP abilities, and it may be reasonable to adapt it. The built in restrictions make it worthless for full level, humanoids. It's really useful for multiclassing or half-spell level casters.
Nephlite
03-26-08, 03:30 PM WizO_Ginger deleted my post, so I'll keep it clean with this one (i quoted stuff verbatim, thats a no-no)

Practiced Spellcaster says to pick a spellcasting class that you have, and that your spells cast from that class are stronger. A warlock's invocations are spell like abilities, not spells. A warlock does not prepare or spontaneously cast spells, he uses spell-like abilities. Spell-like abilities function similar to spells, in that they have a caster level, but they are not spells.

What this all means is, pick a new feat. It doesn't work for Warlocks. (Read Complete Arcane Warlock class, from front to back, then read the feat.)

However, I'm completely fine with a houserule allowing it to work for them. (as are many DM's)

No, a Warlock works:
Only requiremnts are 4 ranks, warlocks are spellcasters, they just do not have spells. Look under spellcasting level in CArcane (pg 72). It doesn't disqualify the Warlock. It just says he can't qualify for Prc with spell levels. He is a spellcaster.
Merestil Haye
03-26-08, 04:08 PM No, a Warlock works:
Only requiremnts are 4 ranks, warlocks are spellcasters, they just do not have spells. Look under spellcasting level in CArcane (pg 72). It doesn't disqualify the Warlock. It just says he can't qualify for Prc with spell levels. He is a spellcaster.I'm afraid a Warlock is not a spellcaster.What effect would the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane, page 82) have on a warlock?
A strict reading of the feat’s benefit indicates that the warlock would gain no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. The warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes—the exception noted on page 18 of Complete Arcane applies only to prestige class benefits—and thus it could not be selected as the class to be affected by this feat.The text on page 72 does not call warlocks spellcasters - it simply permits them to use the CL of their spell like abilities to qualify for feats and PrCs that require a minimum caster level. This does not make the warlock a spellcasting class; because SLAs =/= spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bjorsa 03-17-08, 02:11 PM	When I read the description of the feat "Practiced Spellcaster" I get a definite feeling I must have missed something. It says (Complete Arcane) "Your casting level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4" and later "(...)It increases your casting level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells." So I get to cast all my spells with CL+4? But that means I can go bananas with metamagic effects? As a Sorcerer lev 9 with feats Twin Spell, Empower, Quicken Spell and Arcane Thesis Wings of Flurry I can cast my Wings of Flurry, Quickened & Empowered & Twin Spelled (for a total CL adjustment of 7) and later in the round yet another one with Empower & Twin Spell? Holy crap that would average (1d6xCLxTwinxEmp=) 3.5x13x2x1.5=136.5 damage as a quick action and then another one later in the round for a bizarre total of 273!? Pick up Sudden Maximize and we can get 234 damage for that first Quickened Flurry. Just to be sure. Total average 370.5... This sounds insane. If this is correct, then why aren't you guys going nuts over Practiced Spellcaster? What did I miss? What's the catch? Please correct me!
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-17-08, 02:13 PM	Metamagic increases required spell level, not caster level. Practiced Spellcaster does nothing for your limits on number of spell slots available or highest available spell slot level.
Scion of Coldshard 03-17-08, 02:14 PM	Caster level increases, but you dont gain extra slots. Plus, the extra caster level boost cannot make your caster level go above your hd.. so a human sorc 9 with no other classes already has a caster level of 9 and so practiced spellcaster will do nothing for him. Metamagic requires using a higher level slot, having a higher caster level doesnt give you extra slots.
bjorsa 03-17-08, 02:36 PM	Aha! No wonder I thought the Metamagic stuff seemed so good. Thank you both for clearing that up!
Belkar 03-17-08, 04:28 PM	The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing. For example, a sorceror 1/fighter 4 would normally only have a couple spells, and (even as a 5th level character) his magic missile is still doing 1d4+1, and his mage armor only lasts 1 hour - since he's still a 1st level caster. But with Practiced Spellcaster, he still only knows those few spells, but casts them as a 5th level caster. So his mage armor lasts 5 hours, and his magic missiles are 3d4+3 (for 3 missiles). Make sense?
M-bark 03-17-08, 04:53 PM	The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing. And don't forget it's use for templated characters! Put it on a Half-Fiend and suddenly they're a lot better as Wizards.
Nephlite 03-17-08, 06:40 PM	The feat is designed to help a character that looses caster levels by multiclassing. Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD.
Shular 03-17-08, 07:37 PM	And don't forget it's use for templated characters! Put it on a Half-Fiend and suddenly they're a lot better as Wizards. Not quite. Practiced Spellcaster does not compensate for Level Adjustment, only hit die. So, for example, a Centaur cleric could use PS to compensate for his 4 racial hd, but a bugbear cleric would only benefit for the +3 for HD and not the +1 LA. (Now, if the Bugbear had one level of fighter to go with his cleric level, then he'd get the full benefit of the feat.)
Avihs 03-17-08, 11:27 PM	Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD. Another place it comes in handy is with Prestige Classes that don't have full progression on casting abilities.
bjorsa 03-18-08, 06:25 AM	Don't forget 1/2 casters like the Paladin, At level 8, he has 4 caster. He can use Practiced spellcaster to have 8 since 4 is 4 lower than his HD. Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters?
rjsilverthorn 03-18-08, 06:34 AM	Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters? I don't know if there are others, but here is the wording for the paladin. Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.
Merestil Haye 03-18-08, 08:31 AM	Rangers have the same caster level text as paladins do.
Edymnion 03-18-08, 08:23 PM	Half caster? What is this? Where does it say Paladins are 1/2 casters? Are there more 1/2 casters?Half caster is the term for classes that gain spellcasting abilities later on, namely the Ranger and the Paladin, where they only use half their class level as their caster level. So while an 8th level Paladin might be able to cast a Cure X Wounds spell, the amount he could heal would be the same as a 4th level Cleric (who is a full caster). Practiced Spellcaster means those classes can keep up much more easily.
Speedy 03-23-08, 11:43 PM	Not quite. Practiced Spellcaster does not compensate for Level Adjustment, only hit die. So, for example, a Centaur cleric could use PS to compensate for his 4 racial hd, but a bugbear cleric would only benefit for the +3 for HD and not the +1 LA. (Now, if the Bugbear had one level of fighter to go with his cleric level, then he'd get the full benefit of the feat.) In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6.
groveborn 03-24-08, 02:08 AM	Or perhaps a Spell Thief 17/ Warmage 4, also combined with Master Spell Thief (from Complete Scoundral). This would turn an otherwise 8/4 CL into a 16 CL. This makes all sorts of stuff fun. Add in one more practiced spellcaster for warmage, and it's a CL 20. Not too bad for a character with 21 levels split between two classes. Really causes a good punch for the warmage spells too.
Shular 03-24-08, 07:39 AM	In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6. Not sure what you mean. Do racial levels give hit die? As I understand the rules, the +4 LA/2HD sontechild with two levels of sorcerer and practiced spellcaster would be ECL 8 and caster level 4. But racial levels change this? What book is racial levels in and how do they work?
Merestil Haye 03-24-08, 08:11 AM	In a wierd sort of way, it can compensate for level adjustment. If you use the rules on racial levels you can have (for argument's sake) a 4 level stone child/ 2 level sorcerer with a caster level equivalent of a 6.A racial level is a racial HD. A bugbear Sorcerer 3, for example is 6th character level but ECL7. The Bugbear's "racial levels" are the 3 humanoid HD he has by virtue of being a bugbear. His level adjustment of +1 is not a "racial level." If that character were to tale the Practiced Spellcaster feat with his feat at that level, he would have a caster level of 6. A Stonechild has two racial HD and a +4 LA. Your example Stonechild Sorcerer 2 would have a caster level of 4.
Nezkrul 03-24-08, 09:09 AM	another point: remember that this feat only benefits "spellcasting" classes, classes that have magical abilities / caster level (like warlock) do not benefit if they dont cast spells.
Damned slayer 03-24-08, 10:48 AM	another point: remember that this feat only benefits "spellcasting" classes, classes that have magical abilities / caster level (like warlock) do not benefit if they dont cast spells. False eldritch blast is based on CL like some invocation
Nezkrul 03-24-08, 11:05 AM	False eldritch blast is based on CL like some invocation completely incorrect, eldritch blast is based off of warlock class level. warlocks do not cast spells, therefore, even though they have a caster level for their invocations, they are not a "spellcasting" class.
Nephlite 03-24-08, 02:49 PM	completely incorrect, eldritch blast is based off of warlock class level. warlocks do not cast spells, therefore, even though they have a caster level for their invocations, they are not a "spellcasting" class. Eldritch blast is based on class, but SR checks are based on caster level. Chilling Tentacles is not based on class, but also caster level.
Speedy 03-24-08, 07:37 PM	Not sure what you mean. Do racial levels give hit die? As I understand the rules, the +4 LA/2HD sontechild with two levels of sorcerer and practiced spellcaster would be ECL 8 and caster level 4. But racial levels change this? What book is racial levels in and how do they work? Oops, sorry, my bad. What I should have called it was the Monster Class, not racial levels - that's something we toss around the table. THe Monster Class was originally introduced in the Savage Species book and has been carried on through several of the books dedicated to PC races like Races of Stone. Basically, the Monster Class works the same as a standard class (with certain exceptions) where you take levels in your chosen "creature", thus ignoring Racial Adjustments and allowing a player to play strange and powerful creatures. There are starting stats as normal, and the character gains hit die, skill points, feats, etc. at differnt levels. If a Monster CLass is available for a creature, it is usually in that creature's description, so far as I've seen. (Yeah, I think my example is a little off, but it was meant for illustrative purposes not a practical example.)
Nezkrul 03-25-08, 10:54 PM	WizO_Ginger deleted my post, so I'll keep it clean with this one (i quoted stuff verbatim, thats a no-no) Practiced Spellcaster says to pick a spellcasting class that you have, and that your spells cast from that class are stronger. A warlock's invocations are spell like abilities, not spells. A warlock does not prepare or spontaneously cast spells, he uses spell-like abilities. Spell-like abilities function similar to spells, in that they have a caster level, but they are not spells. What this all means is, pick a new feat. It doesn't work for Warlocks. (Read Complete Arcane Warlock class, from front to back, then read the feat.) However, I'm completely fine with a houserule allowing it to work for them. (as are many DM's)
groveborn 03-26-08, 02:59 AM	There are feats to increase the potency of SP abilities, and it may be reasonable to adapt it. The built in restrictions make it worthless for full level, humanoids. It's really useful for multiclassing or half-spell level casters.
Nephlite 03-26-08, 03:30 PM	WizO_Ginger deleted my post, so I'll keep it clean with this one (i quoted stuff verbatim, thats a no-no) Practiced Spellcaster says to pick a spellcasting class that you have, and that your spells cast from that class are stronger. A warlock's invocations are spell like abilities, not spells. A warlock does not prepare or spontaneously cast spells, he uses spell-like abilities. Spell-like abilities function similar to spells, in that they have a caster level, but they are not spells. What this all means is, pick a new feat. It doesn't work for Warlocks. (Read Complete Arcane Warlock class, from front to back, then read the feat.) However, I'm completely fine with a houserule allowing it to work for them. (as are many DM's) No, a Warlock works: Only requiremnts are 4 ranks, warlocks are spellcasters, they just do not have spells. Look under spellcasting level in CArcane (pg 72). It doesn't disqualify the Warlock. It just says he can't qualify for Prc with spell levels. He is a spellcaster.
Merestil Haye 03-26-08, 04:08 PM	No, a Warlock works: Only requiremnts are 4 ranks, warlocks are spellcasters, they just do not have spells. Look under spellcasting level in CArcane (pg 72). It doesn't disqualify the Warlock. It just says he can't qualify for Prc with spell levels. He is a spellcaster.I'm afraid a Warlock is not a spellcaster.What effect would the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane, page 82) have on a warlock? A strict reading of the feat’s benefit indicates that the warlock would gain no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. The warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes—the exception noted on page 18 of Complete Arcane applies only to prestige class benefits—and thus it could not be selected as the class to be affected by this feat.The text on page 72 does not call warlocks spellcasters - it simply permits them to use the CL of their spell like abilities to qualify for feats and PrCs that require a minimum caster level. This does not make the warlock a spellcasting class; because SLAs =/= spells.