Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marcivo Mikdeswer 02-16-04, 04:04 PM	Just now while reading started thinking "What if an intelligent item was targeted by a disentigrate spell?" I then started wondering if one could use wish or miracle to restore the item instead of building a new one. Could you use wish or miracle to restore "life" to an inteligent ite or would you have to build a newe one?
Beamup 02-16-04, 04:08 PM	I think a Wish or Miracle could do the job - albeit at an additional XP cost at least enough to replicate all the enchantments on the item. Probably a good bit more.
Seeker95 02-16-04, 04:26 PM	If the item is judged to have a soul/spirit, then even the more common forms of recovering the dead could be used. In fact, this gives me a plotline for an immortal sword. Thanks!
Marcivo Mikdeswer 02-16-04, 04:28 PM	oooooooooooooooooooooooh kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Thanks for the input.:D
Vorpal Warhammer 02-16-04, 05:02 PM	Sorry, it's not possible. Under Intelligent Items in the DMG: Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Under Construct type in the Monster Manual: Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
Seeker95 02-16-04, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Sorry, it's not possible. Vorpal, you really should know by now that it is rarely safe to start any post with it's not possible. :P Beamup suggested using wish or miracle to bring the item back (in line with the question initially posed by Marcivo). Since he did not directly propose resurrection or any of its ilk, the stated objections do not apply. My comment was premised with if the item is judged to have a soul/spirit, creating a premise for which the objections raised do not account. In both cases, the objections you raise are not relevant to the conclusions to which they appear to be objecting. It (regardless of the it to which you were referring) is not only not impossible, but with a DM who wishes to do so, quite possible. :D
Sproik 02-16-04, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Beamup suggested using wish or miracle to bring the item back (in line with the question initially posed by Marcivo). Since he did not directly propose resurrection or any of its ilk, the stated objections do not apply. Bad news Seeker, from the Wish spell: • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. However, when broken the magic item loses its properties, intelligence being one of those properties. So all you need to do is repair the enchantment, thus restoring the intelligence... Of course, this is going to be a lengthy enchantment process from scratch, unless you have a quicker way - which I can't currently think of as I am about to go to sleep.
Seeker95 02-16-04, 10:51 PM	Sproik, There is no bad news at all. Tthe wish in this case is not that it duplicate resurrection. There is no dead body to bring back to life (the prerequisite triggering the "duplicate resurrection" clause). Beamup suggesting using wish to restore the item. If anything, the wish is being used to duplicate a supercharged mending spell. :P
Darklion 02-16-04, 10:53 PM	If anything, the wish is being used to duplicate a supercharged mending spell. True reconstruction instead of true resurrection.
Seeker95 02-16-04, 11:05 PM	Originally posted by Darklion True reconstruction instead of true resurrection. :devil: :D :bow:
Sproik 02-17-04, 06:15 AM	Originally posted by Darklion True reconstruction instead of true resurrection. Perhaps there should be a specific spell that repairs a magic item? Being able to just 'zing' back your iron golem is rather powerful...
Will Brandiman 02-17-04, 06:20 AM	There are arcane spells in Tome and Blood that restore hit points to constructs. Don't see why a more powerful version of these couldn't be researched that allows the reconstruction of a destroyed construct. If this is possible then there is also no reason why a Wish couldn't be used to have this work on an intelligent item instead.
Beamup 02-17-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Sproik Bad news Seeker, from the Wish spell: • Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. However, when broken the magic item loses its properties, intelligence being one of those properties. So all you need to do is repair the enchantment, thus restoring the intelligence... Of course, this is going to be a lengthy enchantment process from scratch, unless you have a quicker way - which I can't currently think of as I am about to go to sleep. That's not the function of Wish I'm proposing to use. I'm proposing the use of the catch-all capability where you can do anything you can conceive of, subject to XP cost and DM interpretation. I also object to the approach of reenchanting the item. While that approach would certainly produce AN intelligent item with the same capabilities, I would strongly doubt it would produce the SAME intelligent item, i.e. the mind involved would be different. Effectively what I'm proposing is a sort of combination of a raising spell of some sort (for the prior mind of the item, which would otherwise be lost - obviously none of the standard resurrection spells will work, that's why it's Wish or Miracle) AND reconstructing the item. Maybe if you reconstructed the item, a Wish or Miracle acting like a resurrection spell would suffice to get back the original mind... but maybe not.
Sproik 02-17-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by Beamup That's not the function of Wish I'm proposing to use. I'm proposing the use of the catch-all capability where you can do anything you can conceive of, subject to XP cost and DM interpretation. You want to have a debate about that function of wish? I could argue it doesn't work... :devil: But anyway, I prefer the idea of a specific magic spell that restores a lost intelligent item. Not necessarily one that rebuilds your golem for free, but fixes that intelligent helm of brilliance you loved.
tnitz 02-17-04, 08:15 PM	What if the spell, rather than restoring an item simply made it whole and returned it to 1 hitpoint, leaving you with the task of repairing it the rest of the way. I could see a spell like that working on golems even, unless you allow the spells from T&B that repair golems, fixing them requires some experience and gold outlay. That seems quite reasonable to me, as I'd think if you had the mangled remains of a golem it would be easier to recreate than if you were starting from scratch. Maybe the spell needs a consideration like the resurrection spells for perminant drain of some sort, in this case maybe the object restored loses one hardness perminantly. -Ted
Beamup 02-17-04, 08:18 PM	Originally posted by Sproik You want to have a debate about that function of wish? I could argue it doesn't work... :devil: But anyway, I prefer the idea of a specific magic spell that restores a lost intelligent item. Not necessarily one that rebuilds your golem for free, but fixes that intelligent helm of brilliance you loved. Ah, but wish can do pretty much anything (subject to DM approval/interpretation). If I were DM, I'd certainly allow it.
Sproik 02-18-04, 07:44 AM	Originally posted by Beamup Ah, but wish can do pretty much anything (subject to DM approval/interpretation). If I were DM, I'd certainly allow it. Oh no it can't... Check it out. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182760&perpage=30&pagenumber=1)
Seeker95 02-18-04, 09:53 AM	Sproik, Be careful referencing pages when linking to other threads. I am very confident that the last post on the first page is different for me. Users have the ability to change their page length settings.
Sproik 02-18-04, 09:57 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Sproik, Be careful referencing pages when linking to other threads. I am very confident that the last post on the first page is different for me. Users have the ability to change their page length settings. Edited.
Beamup 02-18-04, 11:37 AM	Originally posted by Sproik Oh no it can't... Check it out. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182760&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) Note the crucial phrase in my post: subject to DM approval/interpretation. Or, phrased a different way, wish can do anything the DM says it can. You really can't argue with that. You can certainly debate whether a DM should allow a given wish, but you can't deny that if the DM says it's possible, it's possible.
Sproik 02-18-04, 02:23 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Note the crucial phrase in my post: subject to DM approval/interpretation. Or, phrased a different way, wish can do anything the DM says it can. You really can't argue with that. You can certainly debate whether a DM should allow a given wish, but you can't deny that if the DM says it's possible, it's possible. Well, actually I can argue with that. I always argue. :D Consider this statement: Summon Monster I can do anything the DM says it can. So, the DM could rule that the spell can in fact permanently increase your Dexterity by 5 points and make all your copper pieces into newts. While the DM can in fact do this, it does not mean it is a normally valid interpretation of the spell. It just means your DM has a house rule that lets you use a spell in a way it could normally be used.
Beamup 02-18-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by Sproik Well, actually I can argue with that. I always argue. :D Consider this statement: Summon Monster I can do anything the DM says it can. So, the DM could rule that the spell can in fact permanently increase your Dexterity by 5 points and make all your copper pieces into newts. While the DM can in fact do this, it does not mean it is a normally valid interpretation of the spell. It just means your DM has a house rule that lets you use a spell in a way it could normally be used. Oh sure, it's ridiculous, but it would mean the spell does that. That aside, Wish is pretty specific in its description. You CAN use it to produce more powerful effects than those listed... and there are no stated limits. Thus, ANY limit on its power (beyond the limits on the enumerated effects) is a house rule.
Sproik 02-18-04, 02:43 PM	That's all very well, but the wish description does actually list the effects you are allowed to supersede. Clearly, the wish is therefore limited to stronger versions of these effects. Rather than debate this here, you should follow the link in my previous post to the last thread that had this discussion in it!
Beamup 02-18-04, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by Sproik That's all very well, but the wish description does actually list the effects you are allowed to supersede. Clearly, the wish is therefore limited to stronger versions of these effects. Rather than debate this here, you should follow the link in my previous post to the last thread that had this discussion in it! Read it a while back (when you first posted the link). Your position depends 100% on your particular interpretation of the spell, which is not in any sense the only one (or even the obvious one). In fact, it's totally invalid. You can do this, this, or this effect. You can also do greater effects. DOES NOT mean that the greater effects must be of the same kind. There isn't even that implication. (And yes, your rebuttal spell as written WOULD allow it to do anything the DM allowed, since you gave it the same power as Wish). In fact, one of the examples given (become immortal) as a possible use of the spell is NOT a more powerful form of any of the standard effects. Limited Wish also explicitly states it can do anything else in line with the power of the given effects (a different phrasing, but means the same thing with a special limitation). So under your interpretation, limited wish is actually more powerful and can do more things than wish can.
Josh Wilhoyte 02-18-04, 03:01 PM	I forget, can Wish tie your shoelace or not?
Krelios 02-18-04, 03:02 PM	Perhaps there should be a specific spell that repairs a magic item? Being able to just 'zing' back your iron golem is rather powerful... And Wish is rather powerful... What's your point?
Beamup 02-18-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by Josh Wilhoyte I forget, can Wish tie your shoelace or not? Sure (whichever interpretation you use). Duplicate animate rope.
Seeker95 02-18-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Josh Wilhoyte I forget, can Wish tie your shoelace or not? Not if they're velcro! :P
Vorpal Warhammer 02-18-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Not if they're velcro! :P The DM is completely within his rights to houserule that Wish can tie velcro. It's a game of the imagination!
Sproik 02-18-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by Beamup In fact, one of the examples given (become immortal) as a possible use of the spell is NOT a more powerful form of any of the standard effects. :uh-huh: Ah, that is, I um... How did I miss that?! Fair game, then. Wish away! I should actually point out that the argument was in fact only put forward to satisfy my own lust for conflict. In home campaigns, wishes can achieve all sorts of effects! :devil:
Beamup 02-18-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Sproik [BI should actually point out that the argument was in fact only put forward to satisfy my own lust for conflict. In home campaigns, wishes can achieve all sorts of effects! :devil: [/B] I got that impression - and I'm certainly guilty of the same thing (frequently).