"Shapechange spell" ??????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Shapechange spell" ??????? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RoseWild
06-02-05, 05:14 PM :thinks: what would be some cool things to change in too? and why?
Keenath
06-02-05, 06:02 PM Um, well... Honestly, get out your monster manuals, and start reading...

Particular forms of interest? Let's see... Shapechange grants all the EX and SU abilities, so that's the main thing to look at.

Dragons, for the breath weapon and flight and strength and AC and random other abilities and... well, obvious pick.

There are several creatures that grant various death gazes or stone gazes or stoning breaths or whatnot, but in general a 17th level caster is going to have more powerful save-or-dies at his disposal (with harder saves, to boot).

Creatures with Regeneration and Fast Healing are powerful selections at any level.

Golems are strong choices, too, since they make you immune to a lot of types of magic and have powerful damage reduction as well.

Elementals have some cool powers, especially big ones, though you might have other spells that work better.

Choker: Quickness is great. That's old-style haste, baby! Feel like two or three spells per round?

Balor: Flaming body and strength are a great combo. Add in that flaming whip that acts like an entangling net, and you've got a powerful ability.

There's a few creatures with Natural Invisibility. The Pixie and Invisible Stalker pop to mind. That's Improved Invis that can't be removed by dispels or purges or anything. True sight still defeats it, so this may not be the best choice at high level.

Archons are good choices. They have the additional ability that their Greater Teleport powers are SUPERNATURAL, which means you get them, where most of the demons and devils have that as an at-will spell like (which you don't get from Shapechange).

Beyond that, just get into the books and start looking around. SU and EX with high save DCs are of particular interest, especially in high-CR creatures that have powerful physical stats too.
mbfu3k
06-02-05, 09:18 PM You may want to check out the Complete (Su) List - For Shapechange (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=226959) thread.
Lord shadow35
06-02-05, 11:40 PM my favorite thing to shapechange in is a little dread blossom swarm, but before i use elemental immunity like 3 times to get immune to the elements. Mainly being immune Fire elec and cold. And pro elements on sonic and acid.

i just think it is funny!
thats all.
was_fired
06-03-05, 01:04 AM I'm 99% sure that you can't normally shapechange into a swarm. Maybe with a special spell or ability, but as it stands I don't see how any creature can become hundreds of other creatures using shapechange as written.
Lord shadow35
06-03-05, 01:24 AM The dread blossom swarm is not a unique creature. The Spell says "...it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature(of any type) From fine to colossal size." :D
MrkGrismer
06-03-05, 09:31 AM Well:

Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature. Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.

I could see the ruling going either way, but common sense says a swarm is not a single creature.
Lord shadow35
06-03-05, 01:17 PM "For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet."

but my friend common sense has no pull in dnd it's just the rules. And you proved my point. thank you
MrkGrismer
06-03-05, 01:27 PM but my friend common sense has no pull in dnd it's just the rules. And you proved my point. thank you

As I said, I can see the ruling going either way. But you are wrong about common sense having no pull in dnd, so long as you have a DM it is up to his particular brand of common sense as to which way the ruling will go.

Mine comes down to a single creature being a single creature, your sense and sensibility may be different.
Lord shadow35
06-03-05, 01:33 PM well killer common sense dictates that a sleeping creature doesn't get a savings thow verses a fireball. But according to the dnd rules he does get the savings throw. at a 0 dex but he still gets a savings throw. Strictly by the book you can be a swarm with shapechange.But for house rules the dm can change that.
MrkGrismer
06-03-05, 02:52 PM well killer common sense dictates that a sleeping creature doesn't get a savings thow verses a fireball. But according to the dnd rules he does get the savings throw. at a 0 dex but he still gets a savings throw. Strictly by the book you can be a swarm with shapechange.But for house rules the dm can change that.

Well sparky, common sense says that if you can't move you don't get to use dexterity, and the rules say that a reflex save is more then just dexterity and that a sleeping creature gets the reflex save at 0 dex, thus allowing for the other factors (such as not staying in the open) to come into play.

Strictly by the book you can shapechange into any single non-unique creature, and a swarm is composed of a multitude of creatures that is treated as a single creature for the purposes of combat. But for house rules the dm can change that.
FatherNature
06-03-05, 09:03 PM #1. I like the Will-o'-wisp because of his Spell Immunity and fly 50' perfect.

#2. common sense says several people are OFF TOPIC!
Manyfist
06-03-05, 10:02 PM A toad. :D Ribbit! :P
Ryll
06-04-05, 01:19 AM My favorite is Solar, for the AC, MR and physical strenght (for things like lifting...I still don't melee worth a darn). Has some nice defensive SU and EX abilities. I try to keep all 5 elemental immunities up, and Solar when possible. Makes it hard to hurt me, which is nice, since I have the lowest HPs in the group :)
Scifione
06-04-05, 05:02 AM Dragons, for the breath weapon and flight and strength and AC and random other abilities and... well, obvious pick.

Used this one tonight. Great worm copper dragon. I didn't make the most of his abilities, but I did more in melee than I ever have. Dragons can use lots of magic items and can cast spells. Thats great for a spell casters.

Oh ya! It feals nice to turn the tables on stone giants. :cool:
was_fired
06-04-05, 05:58 AM You know the errata changed it from Caster level x 2 HD to just caster level HD, and dropped the HD cap from 50 to 25. So no great wyrms as they all have more than 25HD.
Ryll
06-16-05, 03:13 AM We houseruled away the HD cap, but kept it at 1 HD / level.

Seems like a good comprimise, and by the mid to upper 30s the dragons you get are not that unbalancing with what you are facing.
bomaz
06-16-05, 05:42 AM look not into monsters manual but into epic lvl handbook. first of all everything you shift inte should have the paragon template for an extra boost perhaps a few other templates as welll this does not increase HD also we have gloom ha naga, psuedonatural template and worm that walks. Lets asume a troll, half-dragon- psuedonatural ,paragon. CR +2 for dragon +15 for paragon, +13 for psuedonatural and +some for troll of course you wont get all benefits but hey you wont need them you are already unbeatable you get +45 str +59 AC (not counting dex) +25 dex from the templates alone. not to mention fast healing regeneration dmg reduction, and the like. Tremble little wyrms.

Oh almost forgot demilich is nice to have on yourself for a while, magic immunuty.

If possible shapechange needs to be backed up by tensers transformation if you are going to do melee.

You might need some type of divination to find a creature like this and take a look at it

P.s this is powergaming to the extreme. dont even think of using it
mbfu3k
06-16-05, 01:00 PM look not into monsters manual but into epic lvl handbook. first of all everything you shift inte should have the paragon template for an extra boost perhaps a few other templates as welll this does not increase HD

From the SRD (emphasis added):[The Shapechange spell] enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature

A creature with templates, and probably anything from the Epic handbook, is pretty likely to be unique in just about any campaign.
MrkGrismer
06-16-05, 02:12 PM A creature with templates, and probably anything from the Epic handbook, is pretty likely to be unique in just about any campaign.

That's debatable and up to the DM, unique generally means there is only one and can only be one. More importantly shapechange (and the entire polymorph chain) produces "average member of the new form’s race", as such some templates are out, especially paragons.
RoseWild
06-20-05, 12:54 PM Just to throw my two gp's in, I find and have used the Hive mother beholder is an a.. kicker. Thanking my dm for letting me look at some of his books. thanks DM. and thanks to all that have replyed. :angel:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RoseWild 06-02-05, 05:14 PM	:thinks: what would be some cool things to change in too? and why?
Keenath 06-02-05, 06:02 PM	Um, well... Honestly, get out your monster manuals, and start reading... Particular forms of interest? Let's see... Shapechange grants all the EX and SU abilities, so that's the main thing to look at. Dragons, for the breath weapon and flight and strength and AC and random other abilities and... well, obvious pick. There are several creatures that grant various death gazes or stone gazes or stoning breaths or whatnot, but in general a 17th level caster is going to have more powerful save-or-dies at his disposal (with harder saves, to boot). Creatures with Regeneration and Fast Healing are powerful selections at any level. Golems are strong choices, too, since they make you immune to a lot of types of magic and have powerful damage reduction as well. Elementals have some cool powers, especially big ones, though you might have other spells that work better. Choker: Quickness is great. That's old-style haste, baby! Feel like two or three spells per round? Balor: Flaming body and strength are a great combo. Add in that flaming whip that acts like an entangling net, and you've got a powerful ability. There's a few creatures with Natural Invisibility. The Pixie and Invisible Stalker pop to mind. That's Improved Invis that can't be removed by dispels or purges or anything. True sight still defeats it, so this may not be the best choice at high level. Archons are good choices. They have the additional ability that their Greater Teleport powers are SUPERNATURAL, which means you get them, where most of the demons and devils have that as an at-will spell like (which you don't get from Shapechange). Beyond that, just get into the books and start looking around. SU and EX with high save DCs are of particular interest, especially in high-CR creatures that have powerful physical stats too.
mbfu3k 06-02-05, 09:18 PM	You may want to check out the Complete (Su) List - For Shapechange (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=226959) thread.
Lord shadow35 06-02-05, 11:40 PM	my favorite thing to shapechange in is a little dread blossom swarm, but before i use elemental immunity like 3 times to get immune to the elements. Mainly being immune Fire elec and cold. And pro elements on sonic and acid. i just think it is funny! thats all.
was_fired 06-03-05, 01:04 AM	I'm 99% sure that you can't normally shapechange into a swarm. Maybe with a special spell or ability, but as it stands I don't see how any creature can become hundreds of other creatures using shapechange as written.
Lord shadow35 06-03-05, 01:24 AM	The dread blossom swarm is not a unique creature. The Spell says "...it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature(of any type) From fine to colossal size." :D
MrkGrismer 06-03-05, 09:31 AM	Well: Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature. Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype. A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous. I could see the ruling going either way, but common sense says a swarm is not a single creature.
Lord shadow35 06-03-05, 01:17 PM	"For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet." but my friend common sense has no pull in dnd it's just the rules. And you proved my point. thank you
MrkGrismer 06-03-05, 01:27 PM	but my friend common sense has no pull in dnd it's just the rules. And you proved my point. thank you As I said, I can see the ruling going either way. But you are wrong about common sense having no pull in dnd, so long as you have a DM it is up to his particular brand of common sense as to which way the ruling will go. Mine comes down to a single creature being a single creature, your sense and sensibility may be different.
Lord shadow35 06-03-05, 01:33 PM	well killer common sense dictates that a sleeping creature doesn't get a savings thow verses a fireball. But according to the dnd rules he does get the savings throw. at a 0 dex but he still gets a savings throw. Strictly by the book you can be a swarm with shapechange.But for house rules the dm can change that.
MrkGrismer 06-03-05, 02:52 PM	well killer common sense dictates that a sleeping creature doesn't get a savings thow verses a fireball. But according to the dnd rules he does get the savings throw. at a 0 dex but he still gets a savings throw. Strictly by the book you can be a swarm with shapechange.But for house rules the dm can change that. Well sparky, common sense says that if you can't move you don't get to use dexterity, and the rules say that a reflex save is more then just dexterity and that a sleeping creature gets the reflex save at 0 dex, thus allowing for the other factors (such as not staying in the open) to come into play. Strictly by the book you can shapechange into any single non-unique creature, and a swarm is composed of a multitude of creatures that is treated as a single creature for the purposes of combat. But for house rules the dm can change that.
FatherNature 06-03-05, 09:03 PM	#1. I like the Will-o'-wisp because of his Spell Immunity and fly 50' perfect. #2. common sense says several people are OFF TOPIC!
Manyfist 06-03-05, 10:02 PM	A toad. :D Ribbit! :P
Ryll 06-04-05, 01:19 AM	My favorite is Solar, for the AC, MR and physical strenght (for things like lifting...I still don't melee worth a darn). Has some nice defensive SU and EX abilities. I try to keep all 5 elemental immunities up, and Solar when possible. Makes it hard to hurt me, which is nice, since I have the lowest HPs in the group :)
Scifione 06-04-05, 05:02 AM	Dragons, for the breath weapon and flight and strength and AC and random other abilities and... well, obvious pick. Used this one tonight. Great worm copper dragon. I didn't make the most of his abilities, but I did more in melee than I ever have. Dragons can use lots of magic items and can cast spells. Thats great for a spell casters. Oh ya! It feals nice to turn the tables on stone giants. :cool:
was_fired 06-04-05, 05:58 AM	You know the errata changed it from Caster level x 2 HD to just caster level HD, and dropped the HD cap from 50 to 25. So no great wyrms as they all have more than 25HD.
Ryll 06-16-05, 03:13 AM	We houseruled away the HD cap, but kept it at 1 HD / level. Seems like a good comprimise, and by the mid to upper 30s the dragons you get are not that unbalancing with what you are facing.
bomaz 06-16-05, 05:42 AM	look not into monsters manual but into epic lvl handbook. first of all everything you shift inte should have the paragon template for an extra boost perhaps a few other templates as welll this does not increase HD also we have gloom ha naga, psuedonatural template and worm that walks. Lets asume a troll, half-dragon- psuedonatural ,paragon. CR +2 for dragon +15 for paragon, +13 for psuedonatural and +some for troll of course you wont get all benefits but hey you wont need them you are already unbeatable you get +45 str +59 AC (not counting dex) +25 dex from the templates alone. not to mention fast healing regeneration dmg reduction, and the like. Tremble little wyrms. Oh almost forgot demilich is nice to have on yourself for a while, magic immunuty. If possible shapechange needs to be backed up by tensers transformation if you are going to do melee. You might need some type of divination to find a creature like this and take a look at it P.s this is powergaming to the extreme. dont even think of using it
mbfu3k 06-16-05, 01:00 PM	look not into monsters manual but into epic lvl handbook. first of all everything you shift inte should have the paragon template for an extra boost perhaps a few other templates as welll this does not increase HD From the SRD (emphasis added):[The Shapechange spell] enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature A creature with templates, and probably anything from the Epic handbook, is pretty likely to be unique in just about any campaign.
MrkGrismer 06-16-05, 02:12 PM	A creature with templates, and probably anything from the Epic handbook, is pretty likely to be unique in just about any campaign. That's debatable and up to the DM, unique generally means there is only one and can only be one. More importantly shapechange (and the entire polymorph chain) produces "average member of the new form’s race", as such some templates are out, especially paragons.
RoseWild 06-20-05, 12:54 PM	Just to throw my two gp's in, I find and have used the Hive mother beholder is an a.. kicker. Thanking my dm for letting me look at some of his books. thanks DM. and thanks to all that have replyed. :angel: