Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Takoda 02-03-07, 11:13 PM	**Edit note... list of spells and feats are updated to represent current choices after suggestions through post #7** Howdy, Wanted to share my latest character with the group and ask for advice/feedback on my concept vs. spell selection and feats. The Skinny: 12th Level Chaotic-Neutral Sorcerer, 35 Years old (gets the stat shift), human, good lookin, a bit of a con-man/drifter, very charming, prefers the lap of luxury... has now started working within a party comprised of: 1 full rogue (I think), 1 assasin, 1 rogue/shadow illusionist multi-class thingy, and a cleric built for tanking out... all at 12th level. All humans or elves. My guy employs an 11th level Half-Orc bodyguard. Yes, I know I could just dominate him, but remember now... I'm CHAOTIC neutral, I don't always have to veer to the evil side of life do I? I fig'd most sorc's would just dominate an ogre barbarian, but I thought it'd be better for rp if there was a real working relationship between the two... that, and thats the only way my dm would let me have one :) I've built him to have been a good fire team partner with his body guard (this is a replacement character for me... so a 12th lvl build to start) so most of my spell choices have been to cover the basics of buff, defense, offense, battlefield control, & influence since I want to focus on his Charming Ways more than anything in RP. Its a good balanced group & game of RP & Combat... plenty of each. So these are my choices for feats & current spell list. This is my first time playing a caster, but I've been around other pc casters for years and decided for once it looked like fun ;) ::FEATS:: -Bonus- Spell Penetration +2 to beat SR -1st Feat- Substitute Energy: Swap out energy types, no cost metamagic feat -2nd Feat- Quicken Spell: Can cast a spell as a free action 1/round, uses 4 slots higher -3rd Feat- *Extra Spell: Rary's Tel Bond 5 -4th Feat- Empower Spell: 1.5xDmg, uses 2 slots higher -5th Feat- Silent Spell: can cast any spell with a verbal component silently... uses up 1 spell slot higher, 1 action ::SPELLS:: -Zero Level- 1- Detect Magic 60’ cone, concentration up to 1 minute 2- Mage Hand 12 rds, 55’, 5lbs 3- Open/Close… doors, chests 4- Detect Poison 5- Light 120 mins 6- Ghost Sound 12 rds 7- Message 120 mins 8- Mending repair torn clothes/minor items 9- Prestidigitation 1 hr, 10’ range, minor magic tricks -First Level- 1- Magic Missile (maximized 25pts) 5d4+5 dmg 220’ range 2- Mage Armor +4 AC 12 hrs 3- Shield +4 to AC Shield Bonus 12 mins Blocks Magic Missile 4- Grease 5- Ray o’ Enfeeblement -1d6 +5 Str NO SAVING THROW -Second Level- 1- Protection From Arrows 10/dmg red from ranged weapons up to 100pts, 12 hours 2- Scorching Ray 3 rays, each 4d6, NO SAVING THROW 3- Spectral Hand 220’ +2 melee touch atk, -1d4HP AC22, incorporeal, touch-range touch 4- Glitter Dust 5- Shatter -Third Level- 1- Magic Circle Against Evil 120mins, PROTECTION FROM EVIL all within 10’ radius 2- Fireball 880’ range 10d6 save for half 20’ radius 3- Dispel Magic +10 DC to check 4- Vampiric Touch NO SAVE 6d6 dmg/Gained as Temporary HP’s for 1 hr -Fourth Level- 1- Polymorph *see list of choices 12 mins 2- Evard’s Black Tentacles No Save/No Spell Resistance 220’ range 20’radius 3- Greater Invisibility 12rds -Fifth Level- 1- Teleport 2- Rary’s Telepathic Bond 55’ up to 5 people 2 hrs 3- Dominate Person 12 Days - Sixth Level- 1- Disintegrate 24d6 Fort save for 5d6, ranged touch attack ---------------------------- Thanks ya'll for taking a look! I feel like I've mixed n matched this list so many times its ridiculous. One last detail, my dm did let me swap call familiar for metamagic specialist as a 1st level choice... no casting time penalty for using metamagic, and as a caster my character can use quicken spell succesfully. So is this a good spread for a mostly utility list? A caster who mostly had to cover all bases himself? Working in a group now, would you change this? Did I obviously miss something? Got any better ideas? Cheers, ~Tak Anything I left out or you wanna know, just say so
Grod_The_Giant 02-03-07, 11:20 PM	you seem a little weak on offense...just magic missle, vamperic touch (plus spectral hand, I assume), fireball, and disintegrate. You might want a save-or-die like hold person. Craft Contingent Spell is a good feat if you can use CArc.
runestar 02-03-07, 11:37 PM	There is no way you can use extra spells to nab both great res4 and telepathic bond. If you used extra spell at 12th lv to get a 5th lv spell, the next latest you could have taken your 1st extra spell feat is at 9th lv, which lets you take only 3rd lv spells. I don't think maximise is worth it for its cost. Swap it out for empower spell instead. Opinions on spell choices... 1) Get a twillight mithril chainshirt and swap out mage armour. You don't rely on that many touch attacks, so lose true strike as well. Charm person is dead weight for your lv, IMO, since its dc is too low to expect consistent success. Replace with grease, and maybe floating disk, move shield to first lv(or replace with enchanted mithril buckler). 2) Lose eagle's splendor if you can acquire cloak of cha+4 and prot from arrows(too weak and easily overcome). Sub in scorching ray, web and maybe glitterdust. 3) Not a big fan of magic circle, maybe replace with haste or slow? Dispel magic is getting suboptimal, but you might want to wait until you actually have greater dispelling before swapping it out. 4) As mentioned, you can't get a 4th lv spell here with extra spell. 5 and 6) Looks good. Mostly utility spells, but you can always use the slots for empowered lower lv damage spells.:)
Magetastic 02-03-07, 11:39 PM	Where's leadership? I mean charisma is one of your highest stats use it man. Get a wizard cohort and have him make scrolls for you and prepare utility spells so you don't have to. It will also cut down on those extra spell feats so you can get something more useful.
Takoda 02-04-07, 12:03 AM	Wow, lots of stuff to consider... this is great, thanks all so far! Nobody else in my group is really heavy into casting so I have no one to bounce ideas off of before going to our dm with it. Dangit, you're right on the extra 4th lvl spell feat... I totally missed that. Oh well... but hey, time to pick a new feat!! :) To respond, in no particular order to previous posts: - I took Dominate Person to sorta take the place of that save or die situation, figuring a failed save not only negates the impending attack or threat, but now I have a new friend... should that be different? - I'll look into the mail shirt, but it will have to wait. I've already received starting magic items from my dm: +2 amulet natural armor, +2 cloak of Charisma, ring of featherfall, small bag of holding. Its not a high magic item campaign either. - Losing charm person... I could get into that... but what about those free stays at the Dew Drop? And those pesky guards? Or gathering info? Do you think Dominate person and good bluff/diplomacy checks will cover it? - I already know this campaign will deal often with evil foes, so I'm thinking Magic Circ Prot vs Evil is a good way to go, plus it keeps my bodyguard safe from mental control from evil oppt's while he's within 10' of me... thats sort of a safety net for the obvious 'Turn his guard on him' tactic an enemy might employ. - I am considering all the grease, slow, haste, web, etc suggestions... likely some switching is gonna take place - Leadership... I floated that to my dm... she wasn't that crazy about it... neither was I... BUT... I never considered the wizard cohort angle... I was looking at it for a melee bodyguard to have my back... my HP's are 49 @ 12th level... not the toughest guy, so I have to keep him protected as best I can. A Bodyguard can provide a +4 'soft cover' bonus & intercept any melee combatant that gets within range of course. Thats all I use him for, he's not a go forth and fight npc... strictly guardin' my precious glutes. **edit** Great idea, and I'm gonna try that next time for sure. I should have mentioned this earlier... I've already played one game with this character so I'm tied into the bodyguard concept... I still have spells & feats that haven't come into play yet that I can swap around and thats what I'm looking for mostly here. **end edit** Thanks again all! ~Tak
runestar 02-04-07, 12:32 AM	I don't like the "everyone has to cluster-f**k around the sorc to benefit from it" limitation of circle of protection. Just begging for a fireball to be lobbed your way. I would probably go with prot from evil instead. I was thinking that your party rogues(you have 2) should have the diplomacy aspect covered. SInce sorcs get so few spells known, I felt that you should focus on your party's weaker areas, not overlap with their competencies. If your campaign is a low magic one, maybe consider more buff spells like greater magic weapon? That gives your other PCs +3 weapons off the bat, and frees up more room for other weapon enhancements(since they can safely leave their weapons at +1 enhancement). If you extend it, it lasts for 24 hours(though 12 probably suffices). Since they won't be getting as much good gear, it might fall upon you as the key spellcaster to boost them with buff spells. In this case, maybe take craft wand for more castings of buff spells like haste?
Magetastic 02-04-07, 12:37 AM	Why do you have shield listed as a 2nd level spell? Is that 3.0 or something? - Well anyways i'd suggest Ropetrick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)(this spell is awesome) - Lose see invisible get glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) - I'd suggest losing one of your 4rth level spells (maybe greater resistance) and getting enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) Also buy a few wands one with an attack spell loaded like scorching ray and maybe some with web, mirror image or knock stuff like that.
runestar 02-04-07, 12:50 AM	Well, he already loses great res4 because extra spell does not qualify for it. Polymorph and evard's tentacles are 2 very choice spells which are simply too useful to pass up(combat gets ugly when your PCs get polymorphed into hydras or treants). I guess greater invis could be swapped out...
Takoda 02-04-07, 01:51 AM	Okay... Out With: Extra Spell Feat #2, Maximize Spell MM feat, see invis, charm person, eagle's splendor, true strike/shield moved to 1st In With: Energy Substitution MM feat, Scorching Ray sub'd in, Empowered Spell MM Feat, Grease sub'd in, shatter sub'd in, glitter dust sub'd in Thinking about it now... there's a lot that can be done with grease, shatter & glitter dust thats not just for combat usage. Not to mention the Energy Sub feat makes the Scorching Rays & Fireballs much more flexible. I passed on Rope Trick because the character has a bag o' holding and I know my dm would surely call me on it if I slipped up and tried to bring the 2 interdimensional spaces together. Traveling light is a big part of his make up. ~Tak
Takoda 02-04-07, 02:09 AM	I don't like the "everyone has to cluster-f**k around the sorc to benefit from it" limitation of circle of protection. Just begging for a fireball to be lobbed your way. I would probably go with prot from evil instead. I was thinking that your party rogues(you have 2) should have the diplomacy aspect covered. SInce sorcs get so few spells known, I felt that you should focus on your party's weaker areas, not overlap with their competencies. If your campaign is a low magic one, maybe consider more buff spells like greater magic weapon? That gives your other PCs +3 weapons off the bat, and frees up more room for other weapon enhancements(since they can safely leave their weapons at +1 enhancement). If you extend it, it lasts for 24 hours(though 12 probably suffices). Since they won't be getting as much good gear, it might fall upon you as the key spellcaster to boost them with buff spells. In this case, maybe take craft wand for more castings of buff spells like haste? All good suggestions - Its looking like my character will be the face of the party, our rogue types aren't fit for leadership: 1 is an assasin trying to keep a low profile (uses a different disguise every day), the full rogue is an escaped slave (we play in Faerun) so he doesn't want to draw attention either... and lastly the other is a mid-level mix rogue/shadow illusionist (6/6) who is still getting used to being resurrected as a sun elf after having lived life before as a gnome, a rather goofy gnome. Having a body guard comes in good... everyone else see's he's used to giving orders ;) - The prot from evil circle I like too much because its really intended just for the bodyguard and my character who'll both always hang back from melee combat whenever possible (about 30'-40') and always taking advantage of available cover (corners, hallways, doorways). SOP for my character is to go with grtr invis right off the bat then move us both into a defensive position hopefully with cover. Its too risky for me not to have the guard warded from mind-affecting spells from evil casters... at least with other alignments they might not have him try to kill me. He's a barb 5/ranger 6 half-orc with humans/elves as favored enemies... I'd be toast if he got a full round on me of swings with only 49 hp's on my end. And I'm with you on the cluster aspect... the only other party member who may be sticking close is the rogue/shadow illusionist to take advantage of both the circle protection & the body guard... also to be nearby to teleport out with me if the situation gets too hairy. Our general combat strategy is for the cleric to buff himself then charge into combat, he's the closest pc tank at the table... the rogue & assasin split off and look for backstabbing and flanking opportunities while the other one hangs back (now with me) and casts mostly illusion based spells... but he's only a 6th or 8th level caster so I sort of have to double as firepower & utility guy. As part of my agreement with the dm the bodyguard does not engage unless the combatant is targeting 'us'... as in the guard is hired by me, to guard me... not to help the party. He is paid for out of my character's share of the treasure and does not get party share. - I'll give some thought to the weapon buffs... not sure I can give up a 3rd level spell I currently have for magic weapon greater. Vampiric touch is the only one I'm on the fence with... but I feel I need that to cover situations where I need to get hp's fast, or pump up hp's for a pre-polymorph buff for a couple of rounds or when the potions are dry and the cleric is out of cell range. ~Tak
SephDragoon 02-04-07, 02:43 AM	Um... wait a minute. Am I missing something here? Why does he have so many metamagic feats? And for that matter, how is he going to be able to use Quicken? Sorcerers can't quicken spells period. Using metamagic increases casting time. My suggestion, take out quicken, or maybe one of the others if you want to utilize quicken, and grab arcane preperation, or grab the variant that lets you use metamagic X number of times per day "Metamagic Specialist" from the Player's Handbook II, or heck, grab both, that's what I did... Edit: Disregard... I didn't see that part at the end of his post... One suggestion, get rid of glitter dust, and grab see invisibility. I've been playing my sorcerer, and wishing I had this for a full level now. I am just about to get it at this level...
CantripN 02-04-07, 02:49 AM	He DID "grab" Metamagic Specialist... And Metamagic feats aren't half bad for Spontaneous Casters. It only costs you an Extra Move Action. Big Deal. To the OP: Take Versatile Spellcaster instead of Extra Spell or some such... Metamagic Vigor (CoM) also fits the bill. Also, dump Spell Penetration. Take Assay Spell Resistance as a 4th level spell rather than Polymorph. I'm probably alone in this, but I never, ever use that spell.
SephDragoon 02-04-07, 02:54 AM	He DID "grab" Metamagic Specialist... And Metamagic feats aren't half bad for Spontaneous Casters. It only costs you an Extra Move Action. Big Deal. To the OP: Take Versatile Spellcaster instead of Extra Spell or some such... Metamagic Vigor (CoM) also fits the bill. I did make an edit before you posted... I missed the end of his post before, and saw it after I posted.
Merestil Haye 02-04-07, 08:06 AM	A few things. Energy Substitution requires that you choose an energy type - so have you done so? Also, think about how many energy spells you have. I counted two - Scorching Ray and Fireball - so it's probably not worth choosing Fire. Is there nothing better you can choose? I like all your choices at 4th level and above; indeed the last time I got a Sorcerer to 12th level his 5th and 6th level spells looked like yours (except I hadn't chosen Extra Spell so didn't have Rary's Telepathic Bond). I notice Spectral Hand at 2nd level, but again you have only one spell to deliver with it, so I'm not sure that it's a long-term viable choice. I'm also uneasy that you have no spells that reduce energy damage. Given both of those, swap out Vamp Touch for Protection from Energy and Spectral Hand for Rope Trick. Being able to hide for twelve hours is a great idea. I'm not that crazy about Shatter either; I've never seen the point of this as you need to get several rolls to work to break anything you need broken. Remember that it works only on nonmagical objects, which get a save if someone is carrying or using them. Replace it with a more useful spell. One friend who played a sorcerer in a recent campaign swore by False Life. That's 1d10+10 temp hp, renewable if it gets used, and Empowerable with a 4th level slot.
runestar 02-04-07, 08:39 AM	In that case, go for energy sub: cold then. Few monsters are outright immune to both fire and cold.:) What is the purpose of telepathic bond anyways? Its use seems quite specialized...
Bladegeek 02-04-07, 10:03 AM	Yea you're kind of weak offensively. A Sorcerer is so limited in spells you can never go wrong with offensive spells.
Nessaj 02-04-07, 10:06 AM	Rary's Telepathic Bond ROCKS. ...Nothing's more amusing than discussing your plans to assassinate a king right in front of him via telepathy. Not to mention instant contact of anyone bonded, anywhere they may be. My 15th level Wizard took an extended bond every day. I second swapping out Spectral Hand...And Vamp touch for that matter. As someone pointed out, it's only use is to deliver Vamp touch. I'd go with False Life in that 2nd level slot and either Blacklight or Sound Lance in your 3rd level slot instead. Finally, I'd swap out Mage Armor for Protection from Evil, and Magic Circle for Greater Mage Armor. Nice list though. Personally, I prefer force-based Sorcs...Just something cool about them :P
Takoda 02-04-07, 01:50 PM	Man, I've got to stop researching feats at such late hours... - Ropetrick... again, I like the spell but my character carries a bag of holding. Wouldn't it be a bad thing for him to bring the interdimensional space of the BoH with him into the interdimensional space at the top of the rope? - Energy sub feat... yeah... hrm... dunno if its as attractive in the morning as it was last night... - I just swapped See Invis for Glitterdust... now somebody suggests going back ;) ... can't please everyone!! But seriously, I'm thinking see invis is great just for me, but Glitter dust can help the rest of the party and give a minus 40 Hide penalty to those who were simply hiding & not invis... plus there's a chance of blindness, not a great chance, but a chance. Although, see invis is great for locating the OTHER caster who's also cast Greater Invis on themself like I have... hmmm, decisions... jury may still be out on that afterall... - The idea of dropping Vamp Touch and Spectral Hand is appealing... False Life could be a good sub with just 1 spell, but I liked how VT also did damage... but with recent spell changes VT is my only remaining touch attack so it may be best to give it up. I'll put some time towards it all later, great suggestions again... thanks! ~Tak
Takoda 02-04-07, 01:58 PM	Finally, I'd swap out Mage Armor for Protection from Evil, and Magic Circle for Greater Mage Armor. So drop the magic circle in favor of casting Prot from Evil, say, just on the bodyguard? Serves the purpose of shielding him from mental control from an evil caster, right? Can always cast it on myself too... both of us in same round if quickened... If thats how I can do it, yeah, I think that'd be the way to go.
Magicianguy131 02-04-07, 03:36 PM	Your level 12? Great! Here is my advice: Drop your Metamagic Spec and get a familiar When you get to level 13 take the feat from CM (Complete Mage) that does the exact same thing only whenever you want. I think the feat is called Spont, Spellcaster or something...... Since you are the face of the party get a snake familiar (+3 to bluff!) Just me though.........
aelryinth 02-04-07, 03:47 PM	For a versatility build, this thing is suffereing. No telekinesis. One of THE most flexible spells out there. No Heighten...almost the classic sorc metamagic feat. No Fly...this character has no battlefield mobility. While Scorching Ray is nice, you might want a Minor Elemental Orb instead...ignores SR. No walls, esp of force? Greater Dispel Magic as soon as you can get it. Hasting the party or Slowing the enemy can be as or more effective then any fireball. If you really MUST have an AoE, that's okay...but you might be better off with Ice Storm at level 4, which has no save. If you are worried about your Hit points, False Life works wonders. There's a few more from Spell COmpendium which get mentioned: Wings of Cover and RUin Delver's Fortune seem to top the list. the Char Opt boards give a LOT of great recommendations for Sorc spells and builds. Straight sorc/12 is usually NOT a good idea because it gives you nothing. You should be prCing into a caster class that gives you benefits as soon as you are able. ===Aelryinth
Takoda 02-04-07, 04:13 PM	Your level 12? Great! Here is my advice: Drop your Metamagic Spec and get a familiar When you get to level 13 take the feat from CM (Complete Mage) that does the exact same thing only whenever you want. I think the feat is called Spont, Spellcaster or something...... Since you are the face of the party get a snake familiar (+3 to bluff!) Just me though......... I don't think I'm due up for a new feat til 15th level and thats too long to go to wait to avoid the round penalty... we only meet to game 1xMonth so we don't really fly through the advancement.
Takoda 02-04-07, 04:38 PM	For a versatility build, this thing is suffereing. No telekinesis. One of THE most flexible spells out there. No Heighten...almost the classic sorc metamagic feat. No Fly...this character has no battlefield mobility. While Scorching Ray is nice, you might want a Minor Elemental Orb instead...ignores SR. No walls, esp of force? Greater Dispel Magic as soon as you can get it. Hasting the party or Slowing the enemy can be as or more effective then any fireball. If you really MUST have an AoE, that's okay...but you might be better off with Ice Storm at level 4, which has no save. If you are worried about your Hit points, False Life works wonders. There's a few more from Spell COmpendium which get mentioned: Wings of Cover and RUin Delver's Fortune seem to top the list. the Char Opt boards give a LOT of great recommendations for Sorc spells and builds. Straight sorc/12 is usually NOT a good idea because it gives you nothing. You should be prCing into a caster class that gives you benefits as soon as you are able. ===Aelryinth - I'm torn on Telekenisis... its still on the table, the list is fluid right now - Heighten meta feat... I dunno, its handy, but my Char bonus is good... swap it out for what? Silent Spell? Spell Penetration? - Was planning on fly potions... and then swapping out a spell later on at a new level most likely if I felt the potions weren't doing the trick - I'll check into the minor elemental orb... with sub energy feat pending, it may be a better option - No walls, I know... not being an experienced caster I'm not all that confident with whats the best way of using them, so I avoided it... I'll have to give it thought again after hearing all the suggestions - I can't give up Disintegrate... I've already used it... so no greater dispell magic til next level, but its my next 6th level spell, and swapping out the regular when that happens... at level 12 an extra 2 pts isn't that worth it to me yet. - Slow is also still on the table... though not sure what I'm willing to give up for it... I do like having an AoE in the bag o trix, so maybe Ice Storm is the way to go, just that Fireball also has good extra effects and other uses - Yeah, I think I'm sold on False Life from a previous suggestion - Wings of Cover I'll look into... I've heard it mentioned elsewhere - As for PrC's, I know I could milk it for more... but I did that with my last character (a VoP Monk) and he was overpowered for the campaign... I want to keep this build relatively simple, but still interesting... not to mention I'm new to casting (as if you couldn't tell by my lack of knowledge/understanding in selecting a solid spell list) so I'm comfy sticking to full Sorc for now. And for everyone: These suggestions are great... but I have to go with my gut sometimes based on my campaign experience with this group and dm, so if that will influence some of my choices. If I feel the need to explain, I will... otherwise know that I appreciate the imput whether I take action on it or not. ~Tak
keith187 02-05-07, 07:02 PM	I could have sworn the whole extradimentional tear thing was just with bag of holding and a portable hole. I'd look it up, and/or ask the DM if it's a house rule. Now like I said I'm not 100% on it, but I'm pretty sure it was just those two items and not every single extra dimentional space reacting like that.