"strongest" polymorph possibilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

"strongest" polymorph possibilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HeavenShallBurn
03-01-04, 12:38 PM Hey,
due to the fact that my sorcerer has just gained the polymorph spell in a campaign I'd like to know which creatures are in your opinion worth morphin into.

Of course it often depends on the situation, for example is a shark not a very clever choice if you are striding through a desert ;) .
But is there a special creature you favor most between 8 and 12 HD. lets say 'cause of its great attack, and damage or special attacks.

I for myself like the Hydra as a fighting machine very much.
If you want to transform your mage into a Fighter equal monster use the Hydra.
You get 8 attacks with a high Attack Bonus and nice damage.
Attack Bonus is 9 or sth. like that with 1d10+4 damage each head.
phb
03-01-04, 12:54 PM I assume that you are not proficient with those atacks?
olshanski_home
03-01-04, 01:40 PM Assuming you are using 3.5 rules:
I think a hydra is Huge, and polymorph only lets you pick "Large" creatures.
The book (PHB) suggests fire giants. I think gold dragons are pretty good also... (fast). Umber Hulk isn't bad if you need to burrow.
SpellMaster
03-01-04, 01:51 PM Fire Giants are, I believe, the strongest large-sized monster in the game, not including PCs and magical effects, of course. It is the best combat choice.
Dalaeck
03-01-04, 02:18 PM Polymorph 3.5 is much like 3rd edition shapechange with a few restrictions (no comment...). You get the EX special attacks of the thing you change into so it's easy to track down. You also acquire the creature "type" and so plants are immune to 3.5 powe-word kill and so forth...
From the SRD:

8HD: Aboleth DC 19 slime that slowly kills just about anything
3HD: Ankheg DC 14 acid spit + improved grab
3HD: Aranea poison, web
14HD: Athack poison
3HD: Azer heat
8HD: behir improved grab, swallow whole, constrict, rake
9HD: Chuul, improved grab, constrict, paralysis DC 19
6HD: Cloaker moan (many types, fear, hold monster DC 15, etc...) engulf
15HD: Delver, dissolving slime that makes weapons and armor useless and does damage
3HD: Derro sneak attack 1d6, poison use without risk of injury
7 HD: Digester Acid cone + direct acid attack
1 HD: Drow poison
5HD: Ettercap poison, web
2HD: Violet fungus poison
4 HD: Gibbering mouther: blinding spittle, blood drain
7HD: Girallon rend 2d4+12
11HD: Roper strands, weakness 2d8

etc... and many many more.
Dalaeck
03-01-04, 02:22 PM There is no limit to large size in 3.5 polymorph, that was in 3rd edition.
HeavenShallBurn
03-01-04, 02:47 PM Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.

Where is a sentence that I can only polymorph into a large creature ?
So I was right with my Hydra :cool: , or am I still wrong ?
olshanski_home
03-01-04, 02:55 PM my bad on the size ruling

Just don't let a strict DM point at "Alter Self" and use that as the baseline for size changes.

Hydra looks pretty good. Don't count on the fast healing though, it is an EX ability, not an EX attack, thus it is not covered by the polymorph spell. I think hydra's have a fairly low AC so your sorc. will be a sitting duck.
Harliquinn
03-01-04, 03:02 PM Originally posted by HeavenShallBurn
Where is a sentence that I can only polymorph into a large creature ?

From Polymorph:
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

From Alter Self:
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.

Therefore, unless overruled (Which Polymorph does only for the small end and regarding creature 'type'), you are still subject to the restrictions of the spell upon which it is based.
olshanski_home
03-01-04, 03:16 PM There's our first strict DM.

And for the record, I would agree with Harliquinn that polymorph is limited to within 1 size of the caster... which makes me also a strict DM.
HeavenShallBurn
03-01-04, 03:35 PM Polymorph: You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine
But that means that you can assume the form of a small. The only restriction is the size fine.

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.

Muste be within one size category, that means must be the same size, right ? But if you can assume the form of a small enemy you are no longer in within the same size category.

That's my opinion
J. Grenemyer
03-01-04, 03:36 PM Hello,

Originally posted by Harliquinn
Therefore, unless overruled (Which Polymorph does only for the small end and regarding creature 'type'), you are still subject to the restrictions of the spell upon which it is based.

I could see a DM ruling this way without weakening the overall usefulness of Polymorph, but to me it is far too literal a reading.

In particular, I take issue with the, “must be specifically mentioned before it can be said to be changed” approach, as shown above, because the listing for Size: Fine is redundant. We all know there are no creatures smaller than that, so why even list it, much less count it against the “one size” restriction of Alter Self?

No, ‘tis better in my mind to take in everything Polymorph says, which includes a Hit Dice Limit and a list of allowable creature types, for which the later includes many varieties of creature that are Huge and greater.

My in-game experience has shown me that it is not unbalanced to allow a caster to assume forms that are two sizes larger than his own, as his Hit Dice (in addition to Poly’s other restrictions) will serve as a reasonable limit on what he can become anyway.

:D
TheGogmagog
03-01-04, 03:53 PM Why, in your opinion, did they bother to say "This spell functions like alter self, except that..."?
Harliquinn
03-01-04, 04:01 PM Well I prefer to read the letter of the rules when I think they are clear. I honestly don't know why they specify the 'fine' line in Polymorph and not in Alter Self. I mean technically you could cast Polymorph on a 'fine' creature which would allow them to be 'less than fine' but that doesn't exist.

As for sizes larger, well HD isn't the only consideration when choosing a form. A huge creature typically has 5' more reach than a large creature and can also have other abilities (Such as a Tyrannasaurus's swallow whole ability). If the creature in question is already large then it's not so much a leap. Besides Shapechange does away with the size limitation, making Polymorph a nice 'half-way' point int hat you can be any type of creature but still limited in size.
PhaedrusXY
03-01-04, 04:13 PM Go check these out:

3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175846)

3.5 Alter Self Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176246)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HeavenShallBurn 03-01-04, 12:38 PM	Hey, due to the fact that my sorcerer has just gained the polymorph spell in a campaign I'd like to know which creatures are in your opinion worth morphin into. Of course it often depends on the situation, for example is a shark not a very clever choice if you are striding through a desert ;) . But is there a special creature you favor most between 8 and 12 HD. lets say 'cause of its great attack, and damage or special attacks. I for myself like the Hydra as a fighting machine very much. If you want to transform your mage into a Fighter equal monster use the Hydra. You get 8 attacks with a high Attack Bonus and nice damage. Attack Bonus is 9 or sth. like that with 1d10+4 damage each head.
phb 03-01-04, 12:54 PM	I assume that you are not proficient with those atacks?
olshanski_home 03-01-04, 01:40 PM	Assuming you are using 3.5 rules: I think a hydra is Huge, and polymorph only lets you pick "Large" creatures. The book (PHB) suggests fire giants. I think gold dragons are pretty good also... (fast). Umber Hulk isn't bad if you need to burrow.
SpellMaster 03-01-04, 01:51 PM	Fire Giants are, I believe, the strongest large-sized monster in the game, not including PCs and magical effects, of course. It is the best combat choice.
Dalaeck 03-01-04, 02:18 PM	Polymorph 3.5 is much like 3rd edition shapechange with a few restrictions (no comment...). You get the EX special attacks of the thing you change into so it's easy to track down. You also acquire the creature "type" and so plants are immune to 3.5 powe-word kill and so forth... From the SRD: 8HD: Aboleth DC 19 slime that slowly kills just about anything 3HD: Ankheg DC 14 acid spit + improved grab 3HD: Aranea poison, web 14HD: Athack poison 3HD: Azer heat 8HD: behir improved grab, swallow whole, constrict, rake 9HD: Chuul, improved grab, constrict, paralysis DC 19 6HD: Cloaker moan (many types, fear, hold monster DC 15, etc...) engulf 15HD: Delver, dissolving slime that makes weapons and armor useless and does damage 3HD: Derro sneak attack 1d6, poison use without risk of injury 7 HD: Digester Acid cone + direct acid attack 1 HD: Drow poison 5HD: Ettercap poison, web 2HD: Violet fungus poison 4 HD: Gibbering mouther: blinding spittle, blood drain 7HD: Girallon rend 2d4+12 11HD: Roper strands, weakness 2d8 etc... and many many more.
Dalaeck 03-01-04, 02:22 PM	There is no limit to large size in 3.5 polymorph, that was in 3rd edition.
HeavenShallBurn 03-01-04, 02:47 PM	Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Material Component: An empty cocoon. Where is a sentence that I can only polymorph into a large creature ? So I was right with my Hydra :cool: , or am I still wrong ?
olshanski_home 03-01-04, 02:55 PM	my bad on the size ruling Just don't let a strict DM point at "Alter Self" and use that as the baseline for size changes. Hydra looks pretty good. Don't count on the fast healing though, it is an EX ability, not an EX attack, thus it is not covered by the polymorph spell. I think hydra's have a fairly low AC so your sorc. will be a sitting duck.
Harliquinn 03-01-04, 03:02 PM	Originally posted by HeavenShallBurn Where is a sentence that I can only polymorph into a large creature ? From Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. From Alter Self: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Therefore, unless overruled (Which Polymorph does only for the small end and regarding creature 'type'), you are still subject to the restrictions of the spell upon which it is based.
olshanski_home 03-01-04, 03:16 PM	There's our first strict DM. And for the record, I would agree with Harliquinn that polymorph is limited to within 1 size of the caster... which makes me also a strict DM.
HeavenShallBurn 03-01-04, 03:35 PM	Polymorph: You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine But that means that you can assume the form of a small. The only restriction is the size fine. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Muste be within one size category, that means must be the same size, right ? But if you can assume the form of a small enemy you are no longer in within the same size category. That's my opinion
J. Grenemyer 03-01-04, 03:36 PM	Hello, Originally posted by Harliquinn Therefore, unless overruled (Which Polymorph does only for the small end and regarding creature 'type'), you are still subject to the restrictions of the spell upon which it is based. I could see a DM ruling this way without weakening the overall usefulness of Polymorph, but to me it is far too literal a reading. In particular, I take issue with the, “must be specifically mentioned before it can be said to be changed” approach, as shown above, because the listing for Size: Fine is redundant. We all know there are no creatures smaller than that, so why even list it, much less count it against the “one size” restriction of Alter Self? No, ‘tis better in my mind to take in everything Polymorph says, which includes a Hit Dice Limit and a list of allowable creature types, for which the later includes many varieties of creature that are Huge and greater. My in-game experience has shown me that it is not unbalanced to allow a caster to assume forms that are two sizes larger than his own, as his Hit Dice (in addition to Poly’s other restrictions) will serve as a reasonable limit on what he can become anyway. :D
TheGogmagog 03-01-04, 03:53 PM	Why, in your opinion, did they bother to say "This spell functions like alter self, except that..."?
Harliquinn 03-01-04, 04:01 PM	Well I prefer to read the letter of the rules when I think they are clear. I honestly don't know why they specify the 'fine' line in Polymorph and not in Alter Self. I mean technically you could cast Polymorph on a 'fine' creature which would allow them to be 'less than fine' but that doesn't exist. As for sizes larger, well HD isn't the only consideration when choosing a form. A huge creature typically has 5' more reach than a large creature and can also have other abilities (Such as a Tyrannasaurus's swallow whole ability). If the creature in question is already large then it's not so much a leap. Besides Shapechange does away with the size limitation, making Polymorph a nice 'half-way' point int hat you can be any type of creature but still limited in size.
PhaedrusXY 03-01-04, 04:13 PM	Go check these out: 3.5 Polymorph Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175846) 3.5 Alter Self Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176246)