"Summon List" for Polymorphing [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Summon List" for Polymorphing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ibitak84
03-14-06, 12:36 PM Ahoi, all!

A fellow DM I know had some ugly balance problems because he allowed players to polymorph into pretty much any critter from the books he knew that fit the criteria of the spell.
At the same time, one of my players is complaining because shapechanging in D&D is quite limited and non-scaleable unless she plays a druid; otherwise, it's waiting several levels before new spells with new options turn up.

So the other DM and I decided that shapechanging spells should be a lot more similar to summoning spells, i.e. that there should be a Polymorph I to IX, with a list of shapes one can turn into and maybe a variant Wildshape I to IX for druids, along the lines of the example below.

Has anyone attempted something similar or has a suggestion for how to list creatures?

Critical comments and/or help are appreciated!

Example:
Polymorph A
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz A
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of creature from the Ath-level list or any lower-level list.
If you choose a creature from the (A-1)th-level list, the subject can change shape and additional 1d3 times during the duration into another creature from (A-1)th-level list as a free action.
If you choose a creature from a lower-level list, the subject can change shape and additional 1d4 times during the duration into another creature from that level list as a free action.
The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). The subject regains lost hit points only once per casting.
If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: A drop of blood from a creature with the Shapechanger subtype.

Note: Substitute any number from 1 to 9 for A. The wording isn't perfect yet. For the Wildshape A variant, use the Summon Nature's Ally list as spell list, and a smashed caterpillar or as Material component.
Seeker95
03-14-06, 01:30 PM Folks have mentioned similar nerfs over the years, but nobody has actually presented their final list(s). So if you do come up with something for this, please post it!
ibitak84
03-15-06, 01:28 PM Folks have mentioned similar nerfs over the years, but nobody has actually presented their final list(s). So if you do come up with something for this, please post it!

You don't happen to have any links or something? I'm not looking for something final, just for an attempt o quick write-up or something similar.
If my friend comes up with a list, I'll post it - However, if I have to start from scratch, I properly won't even bother (Polymorph isn't nice, but it's not thaaat bad of a problem.)
Seeker95
03-15-06, 03:43 PM No links. I don't recall anyone ever offering up even the start of a list. Rather, folks have asked others to provide content for them, and then never got back to us.
smrtgmp
03-15-06, 03:59 PM The idea certainly has merit, though it would be a lot harder on spontaneous casters than those with more flexable spell lists (but whats new).

I have recently concidered limiting polymorph to forms with 10 or fewer HD and then introducing a 6th level version thats basically identical to the current version. It seems like most of the truly abusable forms (such as the infamous war troll) are in the upper range of HD, and quite frankly I wouldnt have a problem with a 6th level spell providing that kind of buffing potential.
Roxlimn
03-22-06, 07:29 AM I did two such spells in Tony Vargas' Polymorph fixit thread, one for transforming into animals, and one for transforming into humanoids (from the PHB). I have more, but I can't help but feel a little suckered if I keep posting my own content without help or even feedback from others. If you like, I can help you make form-change spells of your own design and requirement.

Look to Tony's thread for my two proposed spells and see what you think of them.
Dalthbar
03-22-06, 07:42 AM What we've always done is that when a spell caster learns Polymorph they learn a "base set" of creatures they can change into as agreed upon by the DM. This is understood to be part of learning the spell. It's usually like 5-8 creatures the player & DM agree upon and consists of the "staple" polymorph choices - treant, troll, a large bird or flying creature, etc.

From there, the player needs to either A) encounter and examine a monster before they can polymorph into it or B) "research" a creature with study (treated as researching a spell) before they're familiar with it enough to alter their entire physical form into that creature.

We haven't had any balance issues with it this way and gives the DM a greater degree of control over what's allowed to be polymorphed into as well as giving the PC some motivation to find and research new monsters.
FallenArchon
03-25-06, 03:55 AM As DM I used a method similar to Dalthbar's, caster learns a number of common forms (Base races + goblinoids, orcs, etc. if applicable to location etc.) and in addition learns new forms by

a. having multiple and/or extended encounters with the creatures,

b. paying a research cost varied by the factors such as location, rarity, and availability of research documents(note: this cost should be less than that needed to craft an original spell), or

c. Make an applicable knowledge check (DC adjusted by above mentioned factors)

Please Note: This fix has been around since 2nd E and I have never had any problems arising from its use (7 years of DMing).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ibitak84 03-14-06, 12:36 PM	Ahoi, all! A fellow DM I know had some ugly balance problems because he allowed players to polymorph into pretty much any critter from the books he knew that fit the criteria of the spell. At the same time, one of my players is complaining because shapechanging in D&D is quite limited and non-scaleable unless she plays a druid; otherwise, it's waiting several levels before new spells with new options turn up. So the other DM and I decided that shapechanging spells should be a lot more similar to summoning spells, i.e. that there should be a Polymorph I to IX, with a list of shapes one can turn into and maybe a variant Wildshape I to IX for druids, along the lines of the example below. Has anyone attempted something similar or has a suggestion for how to list creatures? Critical comments and/or help are appreciated! Example: Polymorph A Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz A Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of creature from the Ath-level list or any lower-level list. If you choose a creature from the (A-1)th-level list, the subject can change shape and additional 1d3 times during the duration into another creature from (A-1)th-level list as a free action. If you choose a creature from a lower-level list, the subject can change shape and additional 1d4 times during the duration into another creature from that level list as a free action. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). The subject regains lost hit points only once per casting. If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. Material Component: A drop of blood from a creature with the Shapechanger subtype. Note: Substitute any number from 1 to 9 for A. The wording isn't perfect yet. For the Wildshape A variant, use the Summon Nature's Ally list as spell list, and a smashed caterpillar or as Material component.
Seeker95 03-14-06, 01:30 PM	Folks have mentioned similar nerfs over the years, but nobody has actually presented their final list(s). So if you do come up with something for this, please post it!
ibitak84 03-15-06, 01:28 PM	Folks have mentioned similar nerfs over the years, but nobody has actually presented their final list(s). So if you do come up with something for this, please post it! You don't happen to have any links or something? I'm not looking for something final, just for an attempt o quick write-up or something similar. If my friend comes up with a list, I'll post it - However, if I have to start from scratch, I properly won't even bother (Polymorph isn't nice, but it's not thaaat bad of a problem.)
Seeker95 03-15-06, 03:43 PM	No links. I don't recall anyone ever offering up even the start of a list. Rather, folks have asked others to provide content for them, and then never got back to us.
smrtgmp 03-15-06, 03:59 PM	The idea certainly has merit, though it would be a lot harder on spontaneous casters than those with more flexable spell lists (but whats new). I have recently concidered limiting polymorph to forms with 10 or fewer HD and then introducing a 6th level version thats basically identical to the current version. It seems like most of the truly abusable forms (such as the infamous war troll) are in the upper range of HD, and quite frankly I wouldnt have a problem with a 6th level spell providing that kind of buffing potential.
Roxlimn 03-22-06, 07:29 AM	I did two such spells in Tony Vargas' Polymorph fixit thread, one for transforming into animals, and one for transforming into humanoids (from the PHB). I have more, but I can't help but feel a little suckered if I keep posting my own content without help or even feedback from others. If you like, I can help you make form-change spells of your own design and requirement. Look to Tony's thread for my two proposed spells and see what you think of them.
Dalthbar 03-22-06, 07:42 AM	What we've always done is that when a spell caster learns Polymorph they learn a "base set" of creatures they can change into as agreed upon by the DM. This is understood to be part of learning the spell. It's usually like 5-8 creatures the player & DM agree upon and consists of the "staple" polymorph choices - treant, troll, a large bird or flying creature, etc. From there, the player needs to either A) encounter and examine a monster before they can polymorph into it or B) "research" a creature with study (treated as researching a spell) before they're familiar with it enough to alter their entire physical form into that creature. We haven't had any balance issues with it this way and gives the DM a greater degree of control over what's allowed to be polymorphed into as well as giving the PC some motivation to find and research new monsters.
FallenArchon 03-25-06, 03:55 AM	As DM I used a method similar to Dalthbar's, caster learns a number of common forms (Base races + goblinoids, orcs, etc. if applicable to location etc.) and in addition learns new forms by a. having multiple and/or extended encounters with the creatures, b. paying a research cost varied by the factors such as location, rarity, and availability of research documents(note: this cost should be less than that needed to craft an original spell), or c. Make an applicable knowledge check (DC adjusted by above mentioned factors) Please Note: This fix has been around since 2nd E and I have never had any problems arising from its use (7 years of DMing).