Post/Author/DateTime	Post
J.B. 02-08-05, 10:09 PM	Hi all, I'm having trouble figuring out if you can use the metamagic feat "Twin Spell" with a spell like "Chill Touch", "Produce Flame", or other, similar spells that require attacks and have a non-instantaneous duration. It seems like it should work fine, but I've got this little voice in the back of my head telling me otherwise. On the one hand, you're casting the spell on yourself, carrying it around and using it to deal damage to others. So would twinning a "Chill Touch" be like casting the spell upon yourself twice (with the second casting replacing the first casting making "Twin Spell" pointless) or would the effects stack (due to the twinning) allowing you to deal 2d6 negative energy dmg & 2 points of STR dmg? Is this possible/right? On the other hand, you are targeting others with the spell even though you carry the spell on your own person, and the "Twin Spell" feat says that it causes the spell to take effect twice on the same target simultaneously. So I guess it comes down to; Do these types of spells target you, or do they target others?
J.B. 02-09-05, 01:11 AM	C'mon people, how about a little help. Please :) .
Talchar 02-09-05, 01:56 AM	Ok, I'll jump into the breach. I would vote with the 2nd spell cancels the first. Thus, for most casters, a twinned chill touch is pointless. Note: I said most casters. A few casters, are trained to work with double touch spells. I am thinking of the Daggerspell classe from the complete adventurer. It has the ability to handle having two touch spells at the same time. So if, the character has some ability that enables him to have two touch spells active at the same time go for it. So with twinned chill touch, the wizard would be treated as if he is a two weapon fighter. (Touch spells are considered light weapons) Each touch would do standard chill touch damage.
J.B. 02-09-05, 02:51 PM	Anybody else believe differently. I'ld hate to base any decision I make on just one opinion. AND thanks for answering Talchar.
tarkin 02-09-05, 02:59 PM	I'd agree that the 2nd casting negates the first. Not all feats go with with all spells. Chill Touch wants the feat Reach, not Twin/Repeat/
Sinon 02-09-05, 04:01 PM	I don't want to comment on what Twin Spell can or cannot do as I don't have the book with me, but according to the spell description: Chill Touch Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Targets: Creature or creatures touched (up to one/level) Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes Target is the target, not the caster. How does Twin Spell work for other targeted spells? With a ray for example: If I hit with the first ray, is the second ray considered to have automatically hit as well?
tarkin 02-09-05, 04:47 PM	That is an old argument that is generally not helpfull. Often times "target" is used in diferent ways in spell descriptions. Despite the quote, the spell Chill Touch actually enchants the caster for a specific amount of time, granting the caster an ability to do 1d6 of damage with potential for strength damage (or cause undead to flee). If you use the literalist reading offered above, then it makes NO sense because the spell has 1) the ability to affect multiple targets and 2) Requires a touch attack.
J.B. 02-09-05, 05:00 PM	I'd agree that the 2nd casting negates the first. Not all feats go with with all spells. Ahhh, but you see that is just it. "Twin Spell" seems to allow for two spells to be cast & held simultaneously. I could twin a "Mage Armor" or a "Displacement" even though doing so is pointless (since the effects would be like the "Charm Person" example and don't stack). So apparently spells with stackable effects could be twinned successfully. This seems to suggest that I could cast a twinned "Fire Shield" spell that possibly quarters all fire damage suffered, deals 2d6+30 dmg (cast at 15th level), and requires two dispel checks to get rid of both. How does Twin Spell work for other targeted spells? With a ray for example: If I hit with the first ray, is the second ray considered to have automatically hit as well? "Twin Spell" twins the effect of the spell on the target. So it's like flinging one "Melf's Acid Arrow" at someone, but hitting her/him with two.
cwslyclgh 02-09-05, 05:16 PM	"Twin Spell" twins the effect of the spell on the target. So it's like flinging one "Melf's Acid Arrow" at someone, but hitting her/him with two. actually it just doubles the casting of the spell (and all considerations of said spell, such as target etc. must be the same)... in the Acid Arrow case above you would still need to make hit rolls for both spells. In other words a twinned spell acts exactly like you had cast the spell twice, and made the exact same descisions each time. (note that if it only twinned the effect of the spell then it would not be possible to twin area spells or target spells). Ahhh, but you see that is just it. "Twin Spell" seems to allow for two spells to be cast & held simultaneously. I could twin a "Mage Armor" or a "Displacement" even though doing so is pointless (since the effects would be like the "Charm Person" example and don't stack). So apparently spells with stackable effects could be twinned successfully. This seems to suggest that I could cast a twinned "Fire Shield" spell that possibly quarters all fire damage suffered, deals 2d6+30 dmg (cast at 15th level), and requires two dispel checks to get rid of both. I actually disagree... the way I see it either you are under the effects of fire shield or you are not under the effects of fire shield... multiple fire shields on the same target would not deal greater damage, and they definatly wouldn't allow it to further reduce fire damage etc.
J.B. 02-09-05, 05:59 PM	You know, I think I'm starting to look at it as; "Twin Spell" doesn't actually twin the spell itself (so no need to worry about the second casting of a spell cancelling out the first), but rather twins only the effects of the spell. So it could conceivable work on the spells I mentioned above. Although some effects of the spell will overlap whereas others effects will stack. For instance, with "Chill Touch", if you hit someone living you'ld deal 2d6 negative energy dmg and possibly 2 pnts of STR dmg (assuming they fail both saves), but against an undead it will flee for the same amount of time no matter if it failed one or both saves. cwslyclgh, are you actually reading the feat description, because it actually does mention not doubling the attack rolls, as well twinning the effect not the casting. Although you may be right, in part, about the fire shield.
cwslyclgh 02-09-05, 06:43 PM	cwslyclgh, are you actually reading the feat descriptionyes Complete Arcane page 84 you can simultaneously cast a single spell twice [first sentance, above prerequisites] ... any variable characteristics (including attack rolls) or descisions you would make about the spell (including target and area), are applied to both spells with affected creatures recieveing all the effects of each spell individualy...[from the body of the benefits section] you might be right about the attack roll thing... it could be read as saying that you would roll the attack once and apply the results to both spells... or you could interperate it as I have been doing to say that an attack roll is required for both spells if one is required.
J.B. 02-09-05, 07:31 PM	cwslyclgh, I can see where your coming from, but I think those sentences are quick and imprecise descriptions of what a feat does (made so for the sake of room). What I based my argument on was this; Casting a twinned spell causes the spell (singular) to take effect twice in the same area or on the same traget simultaneously.[first sentence in the benefits section]
Talchar 02-09-05, 09:38 PM	In general, there are at least two ways to read a feat / spell description. : 1) Intent : 2) Litteral reasoning. Unfortunatly, the game designers are not NASA engineers, with redundant tests and parsing of words and effects to the nth degree. IMO, when attempting to determine which way to read a feat/spell description, the rule of thumb is, whichever reading that results in the least effect / smallest change in standard rules, is the true interpretation. So when looking at the Twin spell feat, you have two choices: A) You cast the same spell twice or B) You cast spell X and its effects register twice. The existing rule structure has no issue with casting the same spell twice in one round. The existing rule sturcture is not set up to handle the effects of a spell cast once but has double effects. Your example of Fire shield demonstrates this. The general rule on stacking prohibits this interpretation. (Effects from the same source do not stack) The example of a twinned charm person, would not ring true. Eg. the target makes two saving throws, one per spell. Under the twinned effect description, logically it would not make sense for two saving throws be needed. (One spell but two saves vs the same effect?) The unstated assumption with magic is one spell - one save - one spell SR. (Yes there are spells that require multiple saves, but those are the exception, and generally require multiple saves based on special conditions that do not lend themselves to a single save. ) I belive the interpretation of one spell - two effects, would require additional rules to cover this event. For certain spells, there would be a minimal impact, while for other spells the impact would be great. How would a targeted dispel magic effect a creature under the effect of a twinned charm person? How does a twinned False life spell work? Reciprocal Gyre spells, how would they inflict damage?
J.B. 02-09-05, 11:10 PM	You know, maybe I'm just bogging myself down in the mechanics of it. Maybe I should look at it from a "balance" perspective; "Is it balanced for a 5th level spell to deal 2d6 pnts of negative energy dmg and 2 pnts of STR dmg possibly". This is probably how my DM will look at the problem anyway. P.S. - One other thing that kept pointing me in that "one spell-two effect" direction were all these little things; "One twinned spell has just the one attack roll (meaning no doubling of attacks), just one area of effect or original targets of the spell (again no doubling), just one caster level check against spell resistance (if any), but the moment it hits people... BAM 2 saving throws .
Talchar 02-10-05, 02:22 AM	Well then, the whole issue is moot. A 5th level spells that does 2D6 negative dmg + possible 2 pts of STR damage. No problem.
Sinon 02-10-05, 10:12 AM	How would a targeted dispel magic effect a creature under the effect of a twinned charm person? If you use a targeted dispel against a creature under the effect of a twinned spell, you treat it as though the target is under the effect of two separate spells. You have to succeed at two separate dispel checks. You're aslo right about a fifth-level spell doing 2d6. Not exactly overpowered.