"Up to five targets, no two can be more tan 15 ft. apart"...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Up to five targets, no two can be more tan 15 ft. apart"...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Perun
05-28-04, 06:15 AM I need a small clarification. When the spell lists target as, for example: "Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart" (from Magic Missile description), what does it actually mean?

One of my players reads it that all targets must effectively be in a 15 ft. diameter, or in an area 3 by 3 squares.

OTOH, I always read that there could be a maximum of 15 feet of space between any two targets (since they are 15 ft. apart). IOW, all potoential targets must be in an area that is 5 by 5 sqares.

To put it graphically (X is the target, O is an empty square)

- my player:
XOX
OXO
XOX

- me:
XOOOX
OOXOO
XOOOX

So, who's got it right?
Nom
05-28-04, 07:10 AM In 3.5, distances are always measured by square. So let's consider two targets. Ignoring obstructions, the first target must be able to move 15 feet (3 squares) and reach the second target.

So neither of your examples is correct.

This is legal:
XOOX

As is this:
XOOX
OOOO
OXOO
(the top right and bottom are 15 ft away - first diagonal square counts 5 ft, 2nd counts 10 ft, total = 15)

As is this:
OXOX
XOOO
OXOX
(the far left is 15 ft from the two far right - first diagonal counts 5 ft)

These are not:
XOOOX
(20 ft)

XOOXOOX
(far left and far right are 30 ft away)

XOOO
OOOO
OOOX
(2nd diagonal counts 10 ft, for a total of 20 ft)

Not directly discussing the issue, but shows the relevant rules:PH 3.5, pg 175. "Area", emphasis mine
When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that rather than counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.Since we're talking a "range" rather than an area, we use the rules for range: count from centre to centre, exactly as if you were moving.
dantedarkstar
05-28-04, 07:24 AM Yes, Nom is right.

Any two which are more than 15ft apart break rule "No two can...".
Lewin
05-28-04, 12:42 PM Your player is essentially correct. But note that the circle of effect here is centered in the most convenient spot, which may not be on a grid intersection or the center of a square. If you have a sphere with diameter of 15 feet, then all points in that sphere are no more than 15 feet apart.

In your example grid, the top left and top right targets are 4 squares apart, which violates the "no two of which are more than 15 feet apart" rule.
Perun
05-29-04, 05:08 AM I originally assumed that since the target part of the spell said that two creatures cannot be more than 15 ft. apart, it meant that between the two there couild be at most 15 ft. of empty space. Meaning that there could be 15 ft. (3 squares) between any two corners of two occupied squareas.

The example of a 15-ft. cone from the DMG (p. 307) does seem to support Nom's ruling. So, I guess that's what I'll go with.

Thank, everybody, for answering.
Sisyfos
05-29-04, 10:33 AM "No two of which can be more than 15 feet apart" equals to 7,5 foot radius area. (Why did they have to make it that confusing?)

Sisyfos
Servant
05-29-04, 10:37 AM Originally posted by Sisyfos
"No two of which can be more than 15 feet apart" equals to 7,5 foot radius area.

It doesn't, actually. The corners of a triangle with 15-foot sides satisfy the conditions but don't fit within your circle.

I agree that just using a circle would have been easier to figure out, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perun 05-28-04, 06:15 AM	I need a small clarification. When the spell lists target as, for example: "Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart" (from Magic Missile description), what does it actually mean? One of my players reads it that all targets must effectively be in a 15 ft. diameter, or in an area 3 by 3 squares. OTOH, I always read that there could be a maximum of 15 feet of space between any two targets (since they are 15 ft. apart). IOW, all potoential targets must be in an area that is 5 by 5 sqares. To put it graphically (X is the target, O is an empty square) - my player: XOX OXO XOX - me: XOOOX OOXOO XOOOX So, who's got it right?
Nom 05-28-04, 07:10 AM	In 3.5, distances are always measured by square. So let's consider two targets. Ignoring obstructions, the first target must be able to move 15 feet (3 squares) and reach the second target. So neither of your examples is correct. This is legal: XOOX As is this: XOOX OOOO OXOO (the top right and bottom are 15 ft away - first diagonal square counts 5 ft, 2nd counts 10 ft, total = 15) As is this: OXOX XOOO OXOX (the far left is 15 ft from the two far right - first diagonal counts 5 ft) These are not: XOOOX (20 ft) XOOXOOX (far left and far right are 30 ft away) XOOO OOOO OOOX (2nd diagonal counts 10 ft, for a total of 20 ft) Not directly discussing the issue, but shows the relevant rules:PH 3.5, pg 175. "Area", emphasis mine When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that rather than counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.Since we're talking a "range" rather than an area, we use the rules for range: count from centre to centre, exactly as if you were moving.
dantedarkstar 05-28-04, 07:24 AM	Yes, Nom is right. Any two which are more than 15ft apart break rule "No two can...".
Lewin 05-28-04, 12:42 PM	Your player is essentially correct. But note that the circle of effect here is centered in the most convenient spot, which may not be on a grid intersection or the center of a square. If you have a sphere with diameter of 15 feet, then all points in that sphere are no more than 15 feet apart. In your example grid, the top left and top right targets are 4 squares apart, which violates the "no two of which are more than 15 feet apart" rule.
Perun 05-29-04, 05:08 AM	I originally assumed that since the target part of the spell said that two creatures cannot be more than 15 ft. apart, it meant that between the two there couild be at most 15 ft. of empty space. Meaning that there could be 15 ft. (3 squares) between any two corners of two occupied squareas. The example of a 15-ft. cone from the DMG (p. 307) does seem to support Nom's ruling. So, I guess that's what I'll go with. Thank, everybody, for answering.
Sisyfos 05-29-04, 10:33 AM	"No two of which can be more than 15 feet apart" equals to 7,5 foot radius area. (Why did they have to make it that confusing?) Sisyfos
Servant 05-29-04, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos "No two of which can be more than 15 feet apart" equals to 7,5 foot radius area. It doesn't, actually. The corners of a triangle with 15-foot sides satisfy the conditions but don't fit within your circle. I agree that just using a circle would have been easier to figure out, though.