Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nadir_Sharpblade 01-25-06, 12:32 PM	Hi there, I'm new to these boards, but I'm quite sure you can solve a dilemma that I discussed in other forums. I hope this topic was not already discussed (I did'n find any "search" button around so I couldn't verify... :rolleyes: ) and, besides, be patient with my mis"use" of english language (I'm an Italian guy). Going to the question: If my wizard casted "ventriloquism" prior to enter an area affected by a "silence" spell, could he "re-locate" his speech outside that area so to use it as a verbal component for a spell? My opinion is that: The "re-location" of the voice of the wizard is not real. So, considering he's in a "silenced" area, he cannot produce any sound (no verbal component -> no spell). But that leaves me with a dubt: if no noise is coming from the caster mouth this means that the voice is masked (so under the effect of the spell), while the spell effect is, indeed, in an other area. So, one spell two effects... :rolleyes: ?? I'll be grateful for any advice, thanx
Talisman 01-25-06, 05:02 PM	Description of ventriloquism: You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it). Therefore, if you are in a silenced area you cannot make sound, ventriloquism or no. Ventriloquism relocates the sounds that the caster makes. If the caster cannot make sounds, ventriloquism still exists...it's just useless until the caster can vocalize again.
Nadir_Sharpblade 01-27-06, 08:56 AM	Thanks for your reply Talisman. I see you agree on my point, but what about the "relocation" of the voice? The voice of the wizard, coming from his mouth, cannot be heard, so I assume it's actually masked. So, should I presume there are two different magical effects (one used to mask the sounds coming from the caster's mouth and the other producing the "illusionary" sounds)? Does this sound strange to you as to me?(two magical effects for a single spell). Furthermore, what happens if another caster targets a dispel magic on the wizard under the influence of ventriloquism? What happens if this caster targets instead the area of the "illusionary" sound? (the voice of the wizard is still masked ?)
Seeker95 01-27-06, 10:39 AM	(We need an icon that shows a sword wielder splitting a hair down the middle.) :D It is one effect. The spell moves the sound you make from your mouth to another location. Your "two effects" analysis would apply equally to teleport -- a spell that not only makes you appear in a remote location, but also makes you disappear from your original location.
Talisman 01-28-06, 02:33 PM	So, should I presume there are two different magical effects (one used to mask the sounds coming from the caster's mouth and the other producing the "illusionary" sounds)? Does this sound strange to you as to me?(two magical effects for a single spell). As Seeker95 noted, it's a single effect: it moves the sound of the caster's voice. The words are still coming out of the caster's mouth; they're just heard in a different location. Furthermore, what happens if another caster targets a dispel magic on the wizard under the influence of ventriloquism? If the dispel check succeeds, the ventriloquism goes away. The magic is still coming from the caster, even though it's affecting a distant area. What happens if this caster targets instead the area of the "illusionary" sound? (the voice of the wizard is still masked ?) If the dispel check succeeds, the ventriloquism goes away. This is a case of one spell affecting two separate areas.
Nom 01-28-06, 07:23 PM	One could argue that the origin of the sound moves. Since no sound is actually being created in the area of silence, then the speech can be heard as normal outside that area.
Egres 01-28-06, 07:50 PM	One could argue that the origin of the sound moves. Since no sound is actually being created in the area of silence, then the speech can be heard as normal outside that area. But it's an illusionary effect. The voice seems to arrive from another point, but its source is always the real one.
Nom 01-29-06, 04:36 AM	But it's an illusionary effect. The voice seems to arrive from another point, but its source is always the real one.That's an interesting semantic argument and quickly gets mired in the bizarre physics of D&D illusions. Considering that ventriloquism is a figment and thus subject to the Will disbelief rules, you may have a point.
Nadir_Sharpblade 01-30-06, 05:00 PM	As Seeker95 noted, it's a single effect: it moves the sound of the caster's voice. The words are still coming out of the caster's mouth; they're just heard in a different location. Well, according to the description, the sound is not "moved". It seems to come from a different area, but it's (really) not. And this is also coherent with the school (Illusion) of the said spell (for a real "relocation" I would consider a different school - Trasmutation? - more appropriate). If the dispel check succeeds, the ventriloquism goes away. This is a case of one spell affecting two separate areas. So you're saying the spell produces a single effect that affects two separate areas (and that a succesful dispel on one area dispels the entire effect)? Is this also the case of other spells like Spiritual Weapon?
Talisman 01-31-06, 03:15 PM	So you're saying the spell produces a single effect that affects two separate areas (and that a succesful dispel on one area dispels the entire effect)? Is this also the case of other spells like Spiritual Weapon? This is my interpretation of ventriloquism, which (as can be seen), is a sticky spell to adjudicate. I erred on the side of harshness because it's a lowly 1st-level spell, and (1) shouldn't have the power to negate a silence spell (2nd-level) through logical loopholes, and (2) either the caster or the area sounds like a viable target for dispelling. However, ventriloquism is a special case because it creates an effect at a distance, and also allows affects the caster. Effectively (whether it's an illusionary effect or not), it affects the caster (his voice is quieted) and an area (his voice comes from somewhere else). That being said, spells such as spiritual weapon don't do the same thing. They create an effect that can be controlled by the caster, but they don't directly affect the caster. Thus, I would rule the only the effect (the weapon of force) is a viable target for dispelling. Targeting the caster shouldn't dispel a spiritual weapon.