"Wish" and The Deck of Many Things. [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Wish" and The Deck of Many Things. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Journeyman Samwise
04-24-05, 04:47 PM So I was attempting to recreate Otto Van Bismark's millitary campaign to unite Germany out of toothpicks and gumdrops when I thought... "Is it possible to alter The Deck of Many Things with a Wish spell?

For those of you not familliar with the Deck, it's a Major Artifact. A deck of cards bearing varying insignia that each have a magical effect when drawn. One generates a moderate wonderous item when drawn, one creates a stone keep, and another locks the character that drew the card into an airless void for all eternity. "Many Things" refers to the fact that there are many effects in the cards, both good and bad. It helps balance the item and prevent it from becoming even more gallingly broken than it already is.

So, DMs, would you allow your characters to Wish certain cards out of the deck? The rules never specifically state that Major Artifacts are immune to Wish, nor does it state that the Deck cannot be seperated. There are a few scenarios I can picture wherein this happens, and I've written them here.

1) The players Wish that "All the cards with bad effects were taken out of the deck."

I, for one, wouldn't allow this, since it's far too broad and "bad effects" can really mean anything, if you skew it enough. For instace, the Goblin King would certainly consider a group of Epic Characters suddenly getting a card granting them three Wishes a "bad effect".

2) The players Wish that "Card x, y, and z are taken out of the deck and form a second artifact, the Deck of Evil Things." Or something of that effect.

I would allow this, possibly. First off, I'd ask the characters how they came to know the names of the cards they Wished away. It's pretty much common knowlege that major artifacts have been lost to the sands of time, along with most of the knowlege surrounding them, so a Barbarian with no prior training in the art of magic suddenly knowing the specific names of cards nearly forgotten by society strikes me as, oh I don't know, unrealistic somehow. I'm not sure if it's allowed or not, but if the characters happened to shuffle through the deck and write down the names of the cards they wanted out, I'd allow that. However, in game, the characters would probably be filled with doubt about weather or not they were Wishing away terribly useful cards, since their characters wouldn't have the same knowlege on the artifact that the players do.

Or, if the characters undertook a quest to fight through a dungeon containing a book with information on the Deck, I'd allow that, no matter how horribly unbalanced that would make the item.

tl;dr version: I'd allow them to Wish away specific cards if and only if their characters had provable knowlege about the Deck, despite the fact that it would unbalance the game, because there's no logical in-game reason as to why it couldn't happen. In metagame, I'm aware that it's probably going to unbalance the game, but in game, there's no reason as to why it couldn't happen. I could create one, sure, but that would be mean and probably **** the players off.

"Oh, I'm sorry, but you can't alter this artifact because, um, God says so."
"But Samwise, Wish harnesses the raw arcane power of the universe, a force so mighty that Heironius himself quakes at it's might."
"Yeah, well... Hey, is that a meteor shower headed your way? Everyone, roll a reflex check!"
"I rolled a natural 20."
"Really? That's great, but the save DC was Jesus so YOU ****ING DIE. END OF DISCUSSION."
mbfu3k
04-24-05, 05:28 PM Artifacts are rare (generally unqiue, but not necessarily for minor artifacts), and the secrets of their creation is lost, but not necessarily knowledge about the artifacts themselves. There's no reason why a wizards library might not have a compilation information about some of the possible outcomes of drawing from a DoMT, gathered from descriptions of those who have drawn from the deck.

Note, from the description of the DoMT in the SRD: "Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice)." Therefore, removing the bad cards would not allow you to draw only good ones thereafter.

And anyway, removing a card from the deck could be seen as the same as drawing it. Wishing to remove all the bad cards from the deck would likely get you affected by all of those bad effects. Wishing to draw all the good cards would likely get you smacked by the DM, and then cards would be drawn from the deck, one after another, until all the good cards (or cards speficially named) were drawn, along with whatever other cards happened to be in between the desired ones. Wishing to split the deck into two different decks of all good or all bad things would probably have a chance of either destroying the deck altogether, or failing outright (but still burning the XP).

Regardless, there is precedent for artifacts not being affected normally by mortal magic (ie, don't they continue to function in anti-magic fields? also, there's only a small chance that Disjunction affects artifacts). The DM might decide give the same % chance for Wish to affect the artifact as for Disjunction, along with the same chance of burning out your spell-casting ability and attracting the ire of a god.

All in all, using Wish on artifacts is likely a very dangerous endeavor.
Journeyman Samwise
04-24-05, 05:45 PM That's a really good point, but couldn't those chances be predicted with an Augury or Contingency spell?

For instance, the characters could Augurize on weather or not the DM would cause the effects to be triggered upon removal of the deck.

And if they were, couldn't the character Contingent something along the lines of "If I'm teleported to an airless void, plane shift me back to where I was standing"?
mbfu3k
04-24-05, 06:04 PM That's a really good point, but couldn't those chances be predicted with an Augury or Contingency spell?

For instance, the characters could Augurize on weather or not the DM would cause the effects to be triggered upon removal of the deck.

Perhaps, but what good would it do? So you know that you would trigger the cards, thus you won't try it. If you didn't know, you probably wouldn't try it, anyway. And if the DM says removing them doesn't trigger the cards, it makes no difference, because they return to the deck anyway.

And if they were, couldn't the character Contingent something along the lines of "If I'm teleported to an airless void, plane shift me back to where I was standing"?

I don't see that specific card in the listed cards. Regardless, though, it's not possible to prepare for every potential misfortune the cards could hit you with.
Loren Pechtel
04-25-05, 12:57 AM I would say that wish isn't powerful enough to alter the deck in any way, although I would allow wish to tell you information about the deck.
calypso
04-25-05, 01:25 AM I really like the idea of allowing Wish the same chance as Disjunction to work, including the burn-out alternative.

Calypso
Al2902
04-25-05, 05:54 AM No.

Wish spells are, in spite of their phenomenal power, mortal magic. Artifacts are automatically considered to trump mortal magic, with the possible exception of Disjunction, which merely allows a fractional chance of destroying the artifact or not (and even then has massively negative consequences and does not permit fine-tuning). Note, of course, that Wish cannot actually emulate Disjunction either (it is a 9th level spell).
Solidcobra
04-25-05, 05:54 AM Why is it that all negative effects of wish are fully allowed, but all positive effects must be anally raped and turned into negative effects?
If the players want all bad cards removed, go "OW" when they are forced to draw them all, and then want all good cards removes...does the DM really have to screw him over more by making him draw all the bad cards AGAIN? -_-
guardiandashi
04-25-05, 06:40 AM wish is NOT actually mortal magic it is deity or "special" magic (or at least it used to be)

IE you cast wish and you get a greater power to intervene for you (also explains why wishes tended to get "twisted" within the letter of the wish but not necessarally the INTENT of the wish.

IE how about this one: I wish I had all the powers and abilities of a gold dragon as if I had been born a gold dragon.... (Male wizard) POOF you are now a female gold dragon (same age as you were apply approiate gold dragon age bracket stats we will say young adult for the saye of arguement) but as you look around, you notice that there is a mature adult red dragon behind you ... he has his way with you sorry.....

see the letter of the wish was fufiled but not the intent.

now My feeling is augery will NOT work on the deck (it is too powerful) but a wish or miracle could influence what cards will come up but CANNOT "remove" any card from the deck, but you could IMO burn wishes so that say ... the first 3 cards I draw will NOT trigger negative effects (usually at a rate of 1 wish per card.)
tarkin
04-25-05, 11:34 AM guardiandashi, wish is mortal magic, and has been at LEAST since 3.0. 2nd edition was sloppy enough that you might have been able to make that argument, but it has clearly been destroyed by what 3.0 and then 3.5 said.

It is in noway "deity" or "special" magic. It can be stopped by anti-magic, dispell magic can counter it, etc. etc. etc.

Wish even costs you 5,000 XP plus additional xp if you make a magic item.

Wish is a weak spell, that can do lots of things, not a strong one that does only one thing.

Here are things that a single wish can not do:

1) Duplicate any 9th level spell.

2) Duplicate a 8th level wizard spell of a school prohibited to you.

3) Duplicate a 7th level Cleric spell

4) Duplicatea 6th level clerical spell of a scholl prohibited to you.

5) Create 25,001 gp worth of platinum.

6) Grant a creature a +6 inherent bonus to an ability score.

7) Revive from the dead someone who's body is totally destroyed. (Takes two wishes).

Gods can do theses things. PC wishes can not.

It is in-appropriate for a single wish to be able to strongle effect an artifact. Wish would at best be able to let you you "cancel" a single draw and try again - but you would be required to stick with whatever the 2nd draw came up with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Journeyman Samwise 04-24-05, 04:47 PM	So I was attempting to recreate Otto Van Bismark's millitary campaign to unite Germany out of toothpicks and gumdrops when I thought... "Is it possible to alter The Deck of Many Things with a Wish spell? For those of you not familliar with the Deck, it's a Major Artifact. A deck of cards bearing varying insignia that each have a magical effect when drawn. One generates a moderate wonderous item when drawn, one creates a stone keep, and another locks the character that drew the card into an airless void for all eternity. "Many Things" refers to the fact that there are many effects in the cards, both good and bad. It helps balance the item and prevent it from becoming even more gallingly broken than it already is. So, DMs, would you allow your characters to Wish certain cards out of the deck? The rules never specifically state that Major Artifacts are immune to Wish, nor does it state that the Deck cannot be seperated. There are a few scenarios I can picture wherein this happens, and I've written them here. 1) The players Wish that "All the cards with bad effects were taken out of the deck." I, for one, wouldn't allow this, since it's far too broad and "bad effects" can really mean anything, if you skew it enough. For instace, the Goblin King would certainly consider a group of Epic Characters suddenly getting a card granting them three Wishes a "bad effect". 2) The players Wish that "Card x, y, and z are taken out of the deck and form a second artifact, the Deck of Evil Things." Or something of that effect. I would allow this, possibly. First off, I'd ask the characters how they came to know the names of the cards they Wished away. It's pretty much common knowlege that major artifacts have been lost to the sands of time, along with most of the knowlege surrounding them, so a Barbarian with no prior training in the art of magic suddenly knowing the specific names of cards nearly forgotten by society strikes me as, oh I don't know, unrealistic somehow. I'm not sure if it's allowed or not, but if the characters happened to shuffle through the deck and write down the names of the cards they wanted out, I'd allow that. However, in game, the characters would probably be filled with doubt about weather or not they were Wishing away terribly useful cards, since their characters wouldn't have the same knowlege on the artifact that the players do. Or, if the characters undertook a quest to fight through a dungeon containing a book with information on the Deck, I'd allow that, no matter how horribly unbalanced that would make the item. tl;dr version: I'd allow them to Wish away specific cards if and only if their characters had provable knowlege about the Deck, despite the fact that it would unbalance the game, because there's no logical in-game reason as to why it couldn't happen. In metagame, I'm aware that it's probably going to unbalance the game, but in game, there's no reason as to why it couldn't happen. I could create one, sure, but that would be mean and probably ** the players off. "Oh, I'm sorry, but you can't alter this artifact because, um, God says so." "But Samwise, Wish harnesses the raw arcane power of the universe, a force so mighty that Heironius himself quakes at it's might." "Yeah, well... Hey, is that a meteor shower headed your way? Everyone, roll a reflex check!" "I rolled a natural 20." "Really? That's great, but the save DC was Jesus so YOU **ING DIE. END OF DISCUSSION."
mbfu3k 04-24-05, 05:28 PM	Artifacts are rare (generally unqiue, but not necessarily for minor artifacts), and the secrets of their creation is lost, but not necessarily knowledge about the artifacts themselves. There's no reason why a wizards library might not have a compilation information about some of the possible outcomes of drawing from a DoMT, gathered from descriptions of those who have drawn from the deck. Note, from the description of the DoMT in the SRD: "Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice)." Therefore, removing the bad cards would not allow you to draw only good ones thereafter. And anyway, removing a card from the deck could be seen as the same as drawing it. Wishing to remove all the bad cards from the deck would likely get you affected by all of those bad effects. Wishing to draw all the good cards would likely get you smacked by the DM, and then cards would be drawn from the deck, one after another, until all the good cards (or cards speficially named) were drawn, along with whatever other cards happened to be in between the desired ones. Wishing to split the deck into two different decks of all good or all bad things would probably have a chance of either destroying the deck altogether, or failing outright (but still burning the XP). Regardless, there is precedent for artifacts not being affected normally by mortal magic (ie, don't they continue to function in anti-magic fields? also, there's only a small chance that Disjunction affects artifacts). The DM might decide give the same % chance for Wish to affect the artifact as for Disjunction, along with the same chance of burning out your spell-casting ability and attracting the ire of a god. All in all, using Wish on artifacts is likely a very dangerous endeavor.
Journeyman Samwise 04-24-05, 05:45 PM	That's a really good point, but couldn't those chances be predicted with an Augury or Contingency spell? For instance, the characters could Augurize on weather or not the DM would cause the effects to be triggered upon removal of the deck. And if they were, couldn't the character Contingent something along the lines of "If I'm teleported to an airless void, plane shift me back to where I was standing"?
mbfu3k 04-24-05, 06:04 PM	That's a really good point, but couldn't those chances be predicted with an Augury or Contingency spell? For instance, the characters could Augurize on weather or not the DM would cause the effects to be triggered upon removal of the deck. Perhaps, but what good would it do? So you know that you would trigger the cards, thus you won't try it. If you didn't know, you probably wouldn't try it, anyway. And if the DM says removing them doesn't trigger the cards, it makes no difference, because they return to the deck anyway. And if they were, couldn't the character Contingent something along the lines of "If I'm teleported to an airless void, plane shift me back to where I was standing"? I don't see that specific card in the listed cards. Regardless, though, it's not possible to prepare for every potential misfortune the cards could hit you with.
Loren Pechtel 04-25-05, 12:57 AM	I would say that wish isn't powerful enough to alter the deck in any way, although I would allow wish to tell you information about the deck.
calypso 04-25-05, 01:25 AM	I really like the idea of allowing Wish the same chance as Disjunction to work, including the burn-out alternative. Calypso
Al2902 04-25-05, 05:54 AM	No. Wish spells are, in spite of their phenomenal power, mortal magic. Artifacts are automatically considered to trump mortal magic, with the possible exception of Disjunction, which merely allows a fractional chance of destroying the artifact or not (and even then has massively negative consequences and does not permit fine-tuning). Note, of course, that Wish cannot actually emulate Disjunction either (it is a 9th level spell).
Solidcobra 04-25-05, 05:54 AM	Why is it that all negative effects of wish are fully allowed, but all positive effects must be anally raped and turned into negative effects? If the players want all bad cards removed, go "OW" when they are forced to draw them all, and then want all good cards removes...does the DM really have to screw him over more by making him draw all the bad cards AGAIN? -_-
guardiandashi 04-25-05, 06:40 AM	wish is NOT actually mortal magic it is deity or "special" magic (or at least it used to be) IE you cast wish and you get a greater power to intervene for you (also explains why wishes tended to get "twisted" within the letter of the wish but not necessarally the INTENT of the wish. IE how about this one: I wish I had all the powers and abilities of a gold dragon as if I had been born a gold dragon.... (Male wizard) POOF you are now a female gold dragon (same age as you were apply approiate gold dragon age bracket stats we will say young adult for the saye of arguement) but as you look around, you notice that there is a mature adult red dragon behind you ... he has his way with you sorry..... see the letter of the wish was fufiled but not the intent. now My feeling is augery will NOT work on the deck (it is too powerful) but a wish or miracle could influence what cards will come up but CANNOT "remove" any card from the deck, but you could IMO burn wishes so that say ... the first 3 cards I draw will NOT trigger negative effects (usually at a rate of 1 wish per card.)
tarkin 04-25-05, 11:34 AM	guardiandashi, wish is mortal magic, and has been at LEAST since 3.0. 2nd edition was sloppy enough that you might have been able to make that argument, but it has clearly been destroyed by what 3.0 and then 3.5 said. It is in noway "deity" or "special" magic. It can be stopped by anti-magic, dispell magic can counter it, etc. etc. etc. Wish even costs you 5,000 XP plus additional xp if you make a magic item. Wish is a weak spell, that can do lots of things, not a strong one that does only one thing. Here are things that a single wish can not do: 1) Duplicate any 9th level spell. 2) Duplicate a 8th level wizard spell of a school prohibited to you. 3) Duplicate a 7th level Cleric spell 4) Duplicatea 6th level clerical spell of a scholl prohibited to you. 5) Create 25,001 gp worth of platinum. 6) Grant a creature a +6 inherent bonus to an ability score. 7) Revive from the dead someone who's body is totally destroyed. (Takes two wishes). Gods can do theses things. PC wishes can not. It is in-appropriate for a single wish to be able to strongle effect an artifact. Wish would at best be able to let you you "cancel" a single draw and try again - but you would be required to stick with whatever the 2nd draw came up with.