Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imparooo 09-16-04, 08:21 AM	I think that the Wish spell, as it is, it terribly underpowered given its huge XP cost. When I think to a "Wish", I imagine a higher power (not divine, instead Genie or Fiend) standing in front of the character asking with thunderous voice why he made he come there, listening to his (worthless) requests, and finally making the will of the character come true. Don't you think that "Wish" should be named "Jolly Manipulation" (the psionic powers "Bend reality" and "Reality revision" are still too cocky, but on the right tracks IMHO), given all the limitations listed under the PHB description? I mean, "Wish" should be reserved only to the almighty changes to reality itself (the full Wish, not the tiny +1 inherent modifier to an ability score), don't you think so?
Gnarl 09-16-04, 09:10 AM	Wish is the kind of spell that can save the day. If you consider wish to suck, than it means they did a great job to balance the spell. In other words, if you want to get all those +++ to ability scores, lots of supernatural abilities and the like, you're gona have to pay for it. On the other hand, in some desperate situations, those 5000 xp are so much better than the level you would lose (or the xp the cleric would spend on true resurections). That's assuming you had your wish spell prepared or a scroll of wish at hand.
Emir 09-16-04, 09:59 AM	Clerics don't spend XP when True Ressurecting. Only 25,000 gp. Wish can only Ressurect somebody, meaning leevl loss. A Wish is not a spell to prepare every day. It's a spell to have in a scroll. You might think that is sucks, I agree. But it can come in handy sometimes, and when it kicks in...
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 10:14 AM	If you consider [game mechanic] to suck, than it means they did a great job to balance the [game mechanic]. <just bangs his head on the desk repeatedly>
imparooo 09-16-04, 10:22 AM	<just bangs his head on the desk repeatedly> I DO completely agree with you... bang bang bang bang bang!
Gnarl 09-16-04, 10:42 AM	Did I say something that stupid ? :)
Aufenshauft 09-16-04, 10:46 AM	If you really think this way, then houserule the spell back to 2nd ed when there was virtually no effect not possible, but it was also entirely up to the DM to interpret that wish with all the logical problems that ment. :mymy: The idea of wish is what you want, but if it is a spell in the books and not some open-ended epic effect, then it needs limitiations or mages all rule the world at 17th level. Simple as that. The current writeup simply gives some things you can do without the DM's screwing with you. This includes abilities that are nearly rules breaking for arcane casters like healing or resurrection (don't compare it to clone, that takes months).
angryman 09-16-04, 10:51 AM	If you don't like it, don't use it. There's no such thing as a free lunch, or for that matter a free reality altering effect that gives you power. And 5000XP sucking is really relative. Yes, it sucks if you don't need to use it. No it doesn't if it saves a party from a TPK, or you want any number of effects that can't be put into a spell you don't have memorised.
imparooo 09-16-04, 10:58 AM	Did I say something that stupid ? :) No. It's not stupid, I just don't like this balance issue. And if you say: If you consider wish to suck, than it means they did a great job to balance the spell. it really leads me to think that you believe that creative things HAVE to be nerfed by WOTC designers so that they suck. Rules everywhere! How can you say that making a thing horribly suck is "a great job"? Aufenshauft is right in saying that without limitations all Wizards would rule the world at 17th level (not to mention Sorcerers at 18th). But I really liked the idea of aging and losing Strength for casting a Wish (never mess up with forces that put so much strain on your body) - THAT was a good limitation, considering that the average NPC Wizard should be quite old at 17th level. A 20-year-old young adult shouldn't be able to cast Wish as a known spell, unless very particular events happened (spent most of his time on the Fey plane, is destined to ascend to godhood and so on). And when you are 60 years old, 5 more on your back really are a burden!
imparooo 09-16-04, 11:00 AM	There's no such thing as a free lunch These Fated [aka as Takers] are everywhere, even in Japan! :)
amoeba 09-16-04, 11:02 AM	wish does suck compared to say, miracle. I think it would be fine if they changed both wish and miracle to include a 1500Xp cost.
Gold Katana 09-16-04, 11:07 AM	"Wish" should be named "Jolly Manipulation" :rofl: Yes, there is a difference between D&D Wish and the Almighty Wish of legends. I don't think the spell sucks - it does exactly what is intended and allowed for game balance. But I see where that is disappointing, particularly since I've been gaming since 1e when wishes were open-ended, omnipotent, and (quite frankly) very dangerous to invoke.
crazysamaritan 09-16-04, 11:18 AM	I kinda like wish as it is. There are specific things you can do, that won't mess with you. Then you can do something like, "I wish to be a god!" and you might end up a husk floating in the astral plane, master of bacteria, or even the overdiety of greyhawk! It's the difference between carefully measuring out an atomic explosion, vs letting the mass explode all at once, Power plant vs. bomb. As to 2ed wish, what does a lich care about age?
SlaineFargallows 09-16-04, 11:47 AM	My character recently pulled a card from the Deck of Many Things granting him 2 wishes. As a rogue and not up to speed on Wish, I found it difficult to stay within the parameters. I couldn't wish for just anything like in the days of old. I ended up with some good things though. I wished for a Ring of Wizardry III for a fellow party member and saved another player from imprisonment, by wishing the card he drew into something different. I really wanted a Ring of Greater Invisibilty, but my GM cried, "too powerful!!!". So much for 'Wish'. Wish is balanced? That makes absolutely NO SENSE. It's supposed to be unbalanced, IMO. Edit: Oh yes, you read that right, I got nothing out of the deal.
CaoSlayer 09-16-04, 12:44 PM	je je je, my favorite incarnation of wish is the one from the videogame Baldur Gate 2... where you summon a genie and then you had to argue with him about which wish to get, you need a good wisdom score to get the best scores and with a puny wisdom you got to choise one from ten ways to be screwed. (of course the time was stopped all the process)
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-04, 12:48 PM	Wish is balanced? That makes absolutely NO SENSE. It's supposed to be unbalanced, IMO. Wish is a 9th level spell. As a spell, that you expect PC wizards to possibly cast, it must be balanced. Otherwise your statement translates to "I think 17th level wizards should be deliberately overpowered." In 1st and 2nd edition, the powers of wishes were basically controlled by twisting the wish. If you ever wished for something that was unbalanced, the DM screwed you over somehow. Wishing for a ring of greater invisibility for instance, might actually summon the One Ring, which would end up corrupting your character. And players generally didn't like that. It seemed like the spell sucked more than it does now, because you'd almost never get what you wished for. While this is a cool mechanic for dealing with stuff like efreeti, it sucks as an actual spell someone is casting (and burning 5000 XP on). You want it to do something powerful, but you want it to stay within reason, so the spell doesn't become the best thing in the game.
edsonaoki 09-16-04, 12:48 PM	Wish seems really weak compared with Miracle, Shapechange, Gate, Simulacrum or other multi-purpose spells. Even weak effects cost 5,000 XP. Perhaps they ruled that way to avoid sorcerers having easy access to a huge list of arcane and divine spells, which is pointless since miracle grants clerics full acess to every existing arcane spell of 7th-level or lower, and every divine spell of 8th-level or lower (BTW, heightened to 9th-level, using a standard action to cast, and of course - at no XP cost). Perhaps wish (and miracle too) should have only a 1,000 XP cost, and a 5,000 XP cost should only be reserved for truly powerful effects (including gaining inherent bonuses to ability scores). Originally Posted by Aufenshauft If you really think this way, then houserule the spell back to 2nd ed when there was virtually no effect not possible, but it was also entirely up to the DM to interpret that wish with all the logical problems that ment. Funny. That's exactaly the 3.5 version of Miracle with 5,000 XP cost - no limitations, everything is up to the DM.
DM Zoc 09-16-04, 01:02 PM	I think Wish is more powerful than Miracle because the latter is more likely to be denied by some random deity.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 01:08 PM	I think Wish is more powerful than Miracle because the latter is more likely to be denied by some random deity. Not if you're a Ur-Priest.
edsonaoki 09-16-04, 01:34 PM	Originally Posted by DM Zoc I think Wish is more powerful than Miracle because the latter is more likely to be denied by some random deity. The description of miracle doesn't tell anything about how (and why, or if ever) deities "deny" miracles. That means, it becomes up to the DM, which take us back to the problem of 2E Wish. So, we are left with the "balanced" wish and the "subjetive" miracle. If I were the DM, I certainly wouldn't let a cleric use miracle every time he wants a simulacrum, greater teleport, dominate monster, heightened firestorm, or that cool spell from XXX class that was published on YYY source. But that's up to the DM.
Someone 09-16-04, 01:43 PM	Not if you're a Ur-Priest.Not so sure about that, I think a deity would notice that one of its miracles had gone missing. Though note a 10th lvl Ur-priest could just steal the spell-like ability of wish from a creature.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 04:08 PM	Not so sure about that, I think a deity would notice that one of its miracles had gone missing. Though note a 10th lvl Ur-priest could just steal the spell-like ability of wish from a creature. Doesn't matter. The Ur-Priest isn't asking any deity to perform his miracles. He's stealing the energy outright and manipulating it as he sees fit and not from any one god. In effect, he's his own deity, but one still dependant on the existance (but not the blessing) of the gods. Absolutely the most perfect class for any Athar.
amoeba 09-16-04, 04:20 PM	roleplaying reasons should never be used to balance out mechanics. saying a deity can refuse a miracle is like saying destruction isn't better than finger of death because the deity might not grant the spell to the cleric.
SlaineFargallows 09-16-04, 05:41 PM	Wish is a 9th level spell. As a spell, that you expect PC wizards to possibly cast, it must be balanced. Otherwise your statement translates to "I think 17th level wizards should be deliberately overpowered." "I wish 17th level wizards were deliberately overpowered!" So what if you get screwed sometimes? Those are the breaks. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. I liked the old system better.
Pentar 09-16-04, 05:58 PM	My character recently attained the ability to cast 9th level spells. Wish isn't in my spell list, though I've had opportunity to learn it. I've taken... Shapechange Power Word, Kill Wail of the Banshee Timestop Meteor Storm Mord's Disjunction ... instead of Wish. Just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Yak of Darkness 09-16-04, 06:16 PM	Weird. The way I look at Wish, you can have it both ways. I look at the Wish description thinking that the guidelines set out in the PHB are what can, with absolute certainty, be wished for safely. Any player who wishes for something that fits one of those criteria, or any player who makes a vague, non-game mechanic wish ("I wish to be stronger," which would translate into a +1 inherent bonus to strength), is going to come out okay, but 5,000XP poorer. If a player wants, however, to intentionally go beyond the "safe" range of Wish, the subjective older edition-style craziness can and will kick into effect. Sometimes a player knows what he is getting into and can handle whatever side effects occurs. Sometimes he doesn't. If not, he should have stuck within the safer parameters outlined in the PHB. (Also, looking through the PHB's description of the spell, it seems that this was the way that Wish was intended to be used--a guaranteed safe zone where your wish will be granted, and a more powerful realm that opens you up to the DM screwjob.)
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-04, 07:07 PM	Not if you're a Ur-Priest. An Ur-Priest really can't cast anything that requires the direct intervention of the diety, such as commune or miracle. Dieties communicated in such a fashion would realize the Ur-Priest to be false, and in the case of commune would answer all his questions with "Go screw yourself."... in the case of miracle, either the god will deny the miracle, or the god will intervene against the Ur-Priest. When you're stealing spell energy from a god, you never want to put yourself directly in contact with him. Not to mention, Ur-Priests really don't have a god to contact anyway and contacting a random one who they've been robbing blind is guaranteed not to go well.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 07:12 PM	Once again, a Ur-Priest isn't asking a god. He's stealing the power/knowledge/awareness/magic. He's the ruler of his destiny, not some glorified adventurer who's stats just became so high that they were decreed "gods." An Ur-Priest really can't cast anything that requires the direct intervention of the diety, such as commune or miracle. Dieties communicated in such a fashion would realize the Ur-Priest to be false, and in the case of commune would answer all his questions with "Go screw yourself."... in the case of miracle, either the god will deny the miracle, or the god will intervene against the Ur-Priest. When you're stealing spell energy from a god, you never want to put yourself directly in contact with him. Not to mention, Ur-Priests really don't have a god to contact anyway and contacting a random one who they've been robbing blind is guaranteed not to go well.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-04, 07:49 PM	Once again, a Ur-Priest isn't asking a god. He's stealing the power/knowledge/awareness/magic. He's the ruler of his destiny, not some glorified adventurer who's stats just became so high that they were decreed "gods." Right, thus he can't do anything that actually requires you to ask a god for help or advice directly, like commune or miracle.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 07:51 PM	Right, thus he can't do anything that actually requires you to ask a god for help or advice directly, like commune or miracle. Only in your world. Once again: The Ur-Priest doesn't ask. He takes. He's not asking a god for communion, he's stealing the information from the very fabric of the cosmos. He's not asking a god to perform a miracle, he's stealing the power and shaping it himself. etc.
hobbitboy 09-16-04, 08:20 PM	Only in your world. Once again: The Ur-Priest doesn't ask. He takes. He's not asking a god for communion, he's stealing the information from the very fabric of the cosmos. He's not asking a god to perform a miracle, he's stealing the power and shaping it himself. etc. So does that mean Ur-Priest's get a more powerful version of divination spells than 'normal' clerics do? There can't be any chance of obscurement or outright misinformation from an Ur-Priest's spell since there is no entity (with its own motivations, desires, and purposes) through which the requested information is filtered. The only chance of error could be an inability to comprehend the answer. Not having to communicate through a deity (or whatever) by connecting directly to the same source the diety got their knowledge from seems a MUCH more powerful ability. - HB
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-16-04, 08:24 PM	Once again: The Ur-Priest doesn't ask. He takes. He's not asking a god for communion, he's stealing the information from the very fabric of the cosmos. He's not asking a god to perform a miracle, he's stealing the power and shaping it himself. etc. Then you're redefining the spell effects. As written in the rules, an Ur-Priest won't get anything out of those spells as they directly communicate with the deity.
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 08:33 PM	So does that mean Ur-Priest's get a more powerful version of divination spells than 'normal' clerics do? Nope, they have the same chance of failure for most spells just like other clerics. The only difference is their failure is a result of their inability to grasp/find the proper information, whereas a traditional cleric's failure is determined by their god only sharing what they like with them. Then you're redefining the spell effects. As written in the rules, an Ur-Priest won't get anything out of those spells as they directly communicate with the deity. No, you're adding to them and relying on your personal house rules and interpretations to dictate how those spells work. Even traditional clerics can choose to not revere a deity (last complete sentence on the left side of page 32 of the PHB). They instead worship an alignment and they still gain benefit from these spells. Feel free to read over the Ur-Priest class, too. They gain access to and the benefit from all spells just like a priest. But, once again, they steal their power rather than ask for it. Hell, Miracle even has a caveat that covers the situation "(or the power you pray to for spells)." The difference is that the Ur-Priest doesn't pray for their power. They snatch it from the multiverse and do with it as they please.
kdyal 09-16-04, 08:44 PM	I agree w/ the idea that the PHB presents "safe" wishes, but that the sky's the limit if risks are taken (but that could be a loooooooong fall...). As far as Miracle goes, my interpretation is that even if a cleric has no specific deity, a specific deity answers the call (the very definition of a miracle is divine intervention, thus requiring the attention of a deity), so the Ur-Priest has some 'splainin to do...
Krog_the_Destroyer 09-16-04, 08:54 PM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please?
Razorblade Smile 09-16-04, 08:55 PM	As far as Miracle goes, my interpretation is that even if a cleric has no specific deity, a specific deity answers the call (the very definition of a miracle is divine intervention, thus requiring the attention of a deity), so the Ur-Priest has some 'splainin to do... Wrong again. miracle (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=miracle), n. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. It can be one or the other. For most clerics, it's an act of a god. For Ur-Priest, it's simply a supernatural phemonenon that defies explanation. I don't know why you guys have such a hard time with the concept of a divine spellcaster who doesn't rely on a god's intervention.
Craque 09-16-04, 09:08 PM	Well, per the description of the Miracle spell, "You don't so much cast a Miracle as request one." it seems that when the spell is cast, it is then that the caster petitions her god for divine intervention. If the spell is interpreted this way, Ur-priests would obviously not be able to use it effectively. One the other hand, if we interpret that that the power to grant the miracle is given to the caster by the god during prayer time, and that the caster is only asking for permission to use the divine energy a certain way when she casts it, then, in game mechanic terms, Ur-priests would all be very happy. However, considering Miracles are not often granted by dieties, and that stealing one is like a 1st level sorcerer stealing a scroll of Wish from an Epic Wizard, such an action is not going to go unnoticed and will pretty much ensure divine smackdown upon your mortal self. Back to the main topic: With regards to amoeba's post: I do think that roleplaying reasons should weigh in on balancing game mechanics, If a PC wants to become an Ur-priest, he should have to find an Ur-priest and then pay/convince/bargain for the training to become one, the DM should not just hand him the training for free just because he wants to be one. A request for a Miracle should be rejected if it is out of line with the diety's alignment and a destruction cast in such a way that it displeases the diety who granted it should entail penalties for the caster. In this way, Wish is balanced with the other high level spells since you can use it however you like, and AFAIK the only practical way to get those inherent bonuses, (to the clerics: good luck convincing your god that she should set aside miracles for your item creation purposes.)
edsonaoki 09-16-04, 09:40 PM	Originally Posted by Craque Back to the main topic: With regards to amoeba's post: I do think that roleplaying reasons should weigh in on balancing game mechanics, If a PC wants to become an Ur-priest, he should have to find an Ur-priest and then pay/convince/bargain for the training to become one, the DM should not just hand him the training for free just because he wants to be one. A request for a Miracle should be rejected if it is out of line with the diety's alignment and a destruction cast in such a way that it displeases the diety who granted it should entail penalties for the caster. In this way, Wish is balanced with the other high level spells since you can use it however you like, and AFAIK the only practical way to get those inherent bonuses, (to the clerics: good luck convincing your god that she should set aside miracles for your item creation purposes.) The only thing that Miracle says: "I any event, a request that is out of the line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused." Now, we can interpret it in many ways... 1. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is simply a request that the deity dislikes. Such as good cleric using a miracle to perform an evil act. But wait a minute.. isn't this the same thing that would make the cleric loses it powers? So, a miracle fails just as frequently as the cleric loses his clerical powers by violating his ethos? Not a great balancing factor. 2. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is one that doesn't advance the causes of the deity. And what the cleric is doing in the party?Isn't he advancing the causes of the deity? Isn't a good cleric in the party to perform good deeds? If he is not, what the hell is he doing in the party? So, why the cleric can't cast a miracle to create a powerful magic item to him, so he can use this item to "aid the cause of his deity"? 3. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is either one that doesn't advance the cause of the deity or one that isn't NECESSARY. A "necessary" request for a good cleric is one such as using miracle to save the party from being completely slaughtered, or rescuing citizens from a town. This is the more "balanced" version of miracle (although I hardly imagin a wizard toasting 5,000 XP for something who isn't "necessary"). However, the text above hardly supports this version.
baerdith 09-16-04, 10:45 PM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please? Dragon Orb 1 appears with Guardian 2 Dragon Orb 2 appears with Guardian 1 Both guardians realize YOU summoned them for the express purpose of stealing the Orbs. Bye Bye!
beaver1024 09-16-04, 10:47 PM	The only thing that Miracle says: "I any event, a request that is out of the line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused." Now, we can interpret it in many ways... 1. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is simply a request that the deity dislikes. Such as good cleric using a miracle to perform an evil act. But wait a minute.. isn't this the same thing that would make the cleric loses it powers? So, a miracle fails just as frequently as the cleric loses his clerical powers by violating his ethos? Not a great balancing factor. 2. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is one that doesn't advance the causes of the deity. And what the cleric is doing in the party?Isn't he advancing the causes of the deity? Isn't a good cleric in the party to perform good deeds? If he is not, what the hell is he doing in the party? So, why the cleric can't cast a miracle to create a powerful magic item to him, so he can use this item to "aid the cause of his deity"? 3. A request that is out of the line with deity's/alignment's nature is either one that doesn't advance the cause of the deity or one that isn't NECESSARY. A "necessary" request for a good cleric is one such as using miracle to save the party from being completely slaughtered, or rescuing citizens from a town. This is the more "balanced" version of miracle (although I hardly imagin a wizard toasting 5,000 XP for something who isn't "necessary"). However, the text above hardly supports this version. I read it as #1. People seem to have this false belief that clerics are balanced by their roleplaying restrictions. Not only is using roleplaying restrictions to balance mechanical benefits so 2e but clerics has less roleplaying restrictions than paladins but have way way more power. Wish sucks because the costs doesn't justify some of the effects.
Yak of Darkness 09-16-04, 10:52 PM	As for how to screw the wish . . . The orbs indeed travel to you, but they don't teleport. They move to you . . . not terribly fast. As they cannot tunnel through halls, they slowly hover through the air (has to be slowly, as you're stretching the spell's power thin to summon multiple artifacts). Eventually, though, all eight orbs will indeed appear in front of you. If anyone happened to follow them, that is indeed your problem, but nothing directly caused by the wish (the spell hovered the artifacts, the guards followed out of their own sense of duty/curiosity).
Rslay 09-16-04, 10:59 PM	Another way to screw over the wish... The orbs of dragonkind do indeed appear before you sans defences, guardians, and what have you... they just do it several thousand years later, and only for a brief instant.
Yak of Darkness 09-16-04, 11:02 PM	Brief instant? I like that. That might be an even better way to do it (hell, it wouldn't have to even wait a thousand years). For less than a nanosecond, the orbs vanish from their respective locations and appear, arranged in a cute pattern, right before your eyes. And then they're gone.
Someone 09-17-04, 01:19 AM	Wrong again. miracle (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=miracle), n. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.We're talking in game terms, not dictionary terms here. But I actually agree with you on this, an Ur-priest could cast miracle. They could just dupe a god into doing it. Or, more exactly, they steal the power to make such a request from the deity in question. So the Ur-priest would state what he would want to happen, and request that a particular deity interceede. The Ur-priest is actually better off in this: he could pick a deity he knows would go along with the request.
imparooo 09-17-04, 04:31 AM	With regards to amoeba's post: I do think that roleplaying reasons should weigh in on balancing game mechanics, If a PC wants to become an Ur-priest, he should have to find an Ur-priest and then pay/convince/bargain for the training to become one, the DM should not just hand him the training for free just because he wants to be one. A request for a Miracle should be rejected if it is out of line with the diety's alignment and a destruction cast in such a way that it displeases the diety who granted it should entail penalties for the caster. In this way, Wish is balanced with the other high level spells since you can use it however you like, and AFAIK the only practical way to get those inherent bonuses, (to the clerics: good luck convincing your god that she should set aside miracles for your item creation purposes.) Well, I couldn't agree more. I mean, this thread is all about role-playing the casting of wish instead of "getting the spell as written by the rules"...! I think that nobody should be allowed to say: "I cast wish to get an inherent bonus to my Intelligence" or crap like that.
CaoSlayer 09-17-04, 06:21 AM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please? you get a illusion or a scry of the orbs. they have apeared, dont materialized or teleported.
Sphyre 09-17-04, 07:46 AM	Heh. Wish is underpowered alright... but not for the stated reasons. Because some stupid DM is gonna think it's his deity given right to pervert any wish you make, even if it's for a ham sandwhich or the effect you're trying to get out of it is explicitly states in the wish description what you're trying to do. Ugh, DMs who do that really strike a pet peeve with me. "I wish for +1 con" "Your character doesn't know what con is. A mysterious man appears in front of you and says he's has a "+1 con" for sale for 5000 "experience." You have just been conned." Seriously!!! Stupid inept DMs! *bangs head on keyboard*
Naeron 09-17-04, 07:54 AM	On the original subject 3rd Ed wish is just as powerful as 2nd Ed but with a lesser penalty - xp is easier to get back than most other losses. Wish still works on the level of "If the DM is happy with it it works", what 3rd Ed has done is define a subset of things that you can wish for that come under the heading "This definitely works so your DM must not mess with your PC for trying it" which avoids the fact that some DM's would twist a wish used for anything just out of malice and a sense of their own power. Wishing for the Sword of Kas is a wish that would be twisted in either edition, all that third ed adds is that wishing for +1 inherent bonus to str will always work (up to the +5 limit etc).
CaoSlayer 09-17-04, 07:55 AM	Heh. Wish is underpowered alright... but not for the stated reasons. Because some stupid DM is gonna think it's his deity given right to pervert any wish you make, even if it's for a ham sandwhich or the effect you're trying to get out of it is explicitly states in the wish description what you're trying to do. lol, you never have heared about the famous last words (after a wish) "Make me a ham sandwhich"?
edsonaoki 09-17-04, 06:13 PM	Originally Posted by Naeron all that third ed adds is that wishing for +1 inherent bonus to str will always work (up to the +5 limit etc). it always worked on 2E too. The 2E Complete Wizard's Handbook tells about what a wish typically can and can't do. It also tells that the wish being twisted or not doesn't depend on its phrasing, but on its power. If your wish is not overpowered, a simple phrase is enough. 3.5 Wish is not completely bad, but it's lacking. I think it's reasonable to spend 5,000 XP for gaining a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score or a 25,000 gp item, since they are permanent benefits I don't think it's reasonable to spend 5,000 XP for many uses of wish, like rerolling one dice or duplicating a divine spell of up to 6th-level. Perhaps, something like: 1,500 XP for simple uses of wish (most of the ones mentioned on PHB) 1,500 XP + spell XP cost + 1/5 spell gp cost for replicating spells 5,000 XP for truly powerful wishes, like: +1 inherent bonus (with the regular restrictions) or 25,000 gpitem reshape up to 10,000 pounds of nonmagical, nonliving matter replicate any spell from any class of up to 9th-level, adding the spell XP cost and 1/5 spell gp cost to the XP cost of wish redo the full last round of combat (with only the caster having knowledge of what happened after and with -5,000 XP) cast ressurrection on multiple creatures (5,000 XP cost + 1,500 XP per additional person) change completely one action (move, standard or full-round action) he done in the previous 24 hours, and adapt the present to that change give one or more people both immunity to magic (like a golem) and invulnerability against physical attacks for 1 minute (5,000 XP cost + 1,500 XP per additional person) teleporting safely all the party members to some place in any plane That means, wish should be a spell for heroic deeds, that changes the tide of events when it is used. It should be more than a mere manipulation of magical energy.
Sphyre 09-17-04, 10:01 PM	lol, you never have heared about the famous last words (after a wish) "Make me a ham sandwhich"? actually, i used the example of the ham sandwhich because i have heard it.
TheAesthete 09-17-04, 10:35 PM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please? Since you misspelled the word "there," what you've asked for is that the Orbs of Dragon Kind appear before you with "out there" (i.e., eccentric, nutty) owners or guardians, who are themselves under a continuous nondetection effect. In which case you are more screwed than you can even imagine. Try "their."
Sphyre 09-18-04, 12:10 AM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please? Round objects of draconic nature appear before you. They hatch into Dragons and eat you. Congrats, you teleported dragon eggs to you. Not to mention, their parents are now looking for their children... *contact other plane* i see... so he wished to have my babies huh? *Teleport* boom. Thanks. Yeah... DMs will screw things over deliberately, even when you word things well. Trick is to have a DM that's not stupid and deliberately will do so. pay 5000 xp, and use up a 9th level slot for the days to screw yourself!
imparooo 09-18-04, 05:57 AM	Weird. The way I look at Wish, you can have it both ways. I look at the Wish description thinking that the guidelines set out in the PHB are what can, with absolute certainty, be wished for safely. Any player who wishes for something that fits one of those criteria, or any player who makes a vague, non-game mechanic wish ("I wish to be stronger," which would translate into a +1 inherent bonus to strength), is going to come out okay, but 5,000XP poorer. If a player wants, however, to intentionally go beyond the "safe" range of Wish, the subjective older edition-style craziness can and will kick into effect. Sometimes a player knows what he is getting into and can handle whatever side effects occurs. Sometimes he doesn't. If not, he should have stuck within the safer parameters outlined in the PHB. (Also, looking through the PHB's description of the spell, it seems that this was the way that Wish was intended to be used--a guaranteed safe zone where your wish will be granted, and a more powerful realm that opens you up to the DM screwjob.) This sounds ok to me, but then the ridiculous XP cost for casting the of wish should be dropped to a more reasonable 1,000 or 2,000 XP. Even the most creative ones, since you will end up screwing yourself more often than benefitting yourself.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-18-04, 07:07 AM	I wish for the orbs of dragon kind to appear before me with out there owners, guardians, defences, or creators, under a continous nondetection effect. screw that over please? The Golden Orb of Dragonkind arrives still in the hands of the Epic Half-fiendish rogue/monk/drunken master who was in the process of stealing it. He looks at you, raises and eyebrow and says 'Well that wasn't very bright of you now was it?" He kills you in a round and now thanks to you, he's got all the orbs of Dragonkind, sans owners, guardians, defences, or creators, and under a continous nondetection effect. Never try to get over on a real DM who doesn't need WotC holding his hand to assert control over his own game.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-18-04, 07:32 AM	miracle (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=miracle), n. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God. How bout using the definition "A D&D cleric spell in the player's handbook" instead of the one out of the dictionary. Kinda helps if you know... we are talking about the same thing. And under the definition of the thing we are talking about, it says "You don't so much cast a Miracle as request one." This directly says you are asking the god to grant the miracle and that the miracle can be refused. Chances are since you've been robbing the god of powers, he's going to refuse the miracle (and that's if it's your lucky day.) He could just use the miracle to kill you, and charge you 5000 XP for doing it. As for the twisting of the said wish. It's easy... several normal glass orbs appear in front of you, each held by a small pewter dragon figurine. Apparently some merchant somewhere was selling them under the name "Orbs of dragonkind" and discovers that his merchandise is now missing.
Razorblade Smile 09-18-04, 09:53 AM	How bout using the definition "A D&D cleric spell in the player's handbook" instead of the one out of the dictionary. Kinda helps if you know... we are talking about the same thing. Do whatever the frell you like. The original poster I was quoting was using "by definition" in the context of the real world use of the word. It's amazing that when someone gets pinged for it and is proven wrong, it suddenly becomes the fault and idiocy of the one who proved them wrong.
Beerkeg 09-18-04, 01:41 PM	/Spends 5000xp to make Ur-priests file requests for power in triplicate, to all dietys whom they are stealing power from.
imparooo 09-20-04, 04:55 AM	Wish seems really weak compared with Miracle, Shapechange, Gate, Simulacrum or other multi-purpose spells. Even weak effects cost 5,000 XP. Perhaps they ruled that way to avoid sorcerers having easy access to a huge list of arcane and divine spells, which is pointless since miracle grants clerics full acess to every existing arcane spell of 7th-level or lower, and every divine spell of 8th-level or lower (BTW, heightened to 9th-level, using a standard action to cast, and of course - at no XP cost). Perhaps wish (and miracle too) should have only a 1,000 XP cost, and a 5,000 XP cost should only be reserved for truly powerful effects (including gaining inherent bonuses to ability scores). Funny. That's exactaly the 3.5 version of Miracle with 5,000 XP cost - no limitations, everything is up to the DM. [Rant] Anyway, I see a general proliferation of "Wish threads". Shouldn't game designers try to solve the problem, instead of addressing just cometic issues in the 3.75 version of the game (which will surely come up a year before the release of 4.0)? [Rant]
Vaelan 09-20-04, 09:40 AM	Those wacky Ur-Priests... The Miracle spell description clearly states that the casting of the spell is not what causes the effect. Miracle causes the deity/power to assess the situation. If the deity/power wants to intercede, it does. So all Miracle would do for an Ur-Priest is draw the attention of a god, which would be a death sentance. As for the original topic: I think Wish is just fine as it is. It is expensive and powerful. I think the problem is the rest of the 9th level spells...
green_yawgmoth 09-20-04, 10:05 AM	So all Miracle would do for an Ur-Priest is draw the attention of a god, which would be a death sentance.Unless the Miracle is granted by a god who doesn't care about Ur-priests stealing power. ooh! Even better - the ur-priests are really just evil clerics of (deity), and don't realize it; they just think they're "stealing" their power. Man I'm awesome. http://photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Demon Lightfoot 09-20-04, 10:27 AM	*furiously scribbles notes on buggering up wishes* Great thread!
Ryll 09-21-04, 11:00 PM	We house-rule wish to have no xp cost for all the same things that Miracle gets for free. That way it is balanced with the cleric's version. You are still using a 9th level spell to get a lower level spell sometimes, but that means you are not using a different 9th level spell... and if you want to use wish (or miracle) to duplicate a different 9th level spell, you pay an extra 5000 xp... if you want to use either for something more... 5000 xp. Seems reasonable to me (and to the rest of our group) - the only thing that made it too much was the 3.0 use of innate spell feat. Then it can get outa hand.