"Wish" under domination [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Wish" under domination [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
aser
09-13-06, 12:54 PM Is it possible to dominate (using a spell with the same name) a high-level wizard and order him to cast a wish? If yes, it could be a cheep way to cash wishes, taking into account that usually wizards have low Will saves. Of course, after casting wish the wizard has to be killed to prevent some kind of retribution :D
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 12:58 PM I think casting a spell that expends xp falls vaguely under the heading of obviously self-destructive orders. It's not completely destructive, but the subject is basically sacrificing a bit of his life-force, spirit, memory, whatever you want to call it, any time he expends xp.
kliate
09-13-06, 12:59 PM Well, first you have to get through the Wizard's strong point - a Will Save.
Then, if the Wizard isn't very inclined to cast a Wish anyway, he gets a second save with a +2 bonus.
Add onto that the fact that the Wizard may not have even prepared Wish that day, and so you may have to wait until after the Wizard has prepared additional spells.
This also assumes the Wizard hasn't already prevented this possibility with a Mind Blank spell.

So, it seems to me that you could try, but it's not a very reliable process.
aser
09-13-06, 01:09 PM OK, suppose you are a vampire. Will it work if you kill a wizard and turn him into your spawn? Could you order him to learn and cast a wish in this case?
aser
09-13-06, 01:16 PM Then, if the Wizard isn't very inclined to cast a Wish anyway, he gets a second save with a +2 bonus.

Why? Dominate states that the target makes the second save if "forced to take actions against its nature". The description do not state that the target must be willing to execute orders. I suppose, an example of an order that is "against a nature" of a target would be to order a paladine to murder a dozen of infants.

Why casting a wish is "against a nature" of a wizard? I think, it's perfectly in his nature - he is a wizard, after all.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 01:20 PM If he's wishing for something he would ordinarily be opposed to wish for, it's still against his nature. Same as if you ordered a LG wizard to Fireball an orphanage... Fireball isn't against his nature, wholesale slaughter of orphans is.

As for the vampire ordering one of its spawn to Wish for something for him, that one I'm not sure of. I need to look up the specifics on spawn enslavement, I'll get back to it if I find anything solid either way.

I will note that at the ECL a vampire can have a spawn powerful enough to cast Wish, the vampire is at least ECL 17 and probably has better options available, if he's resourceful.
kliate
09-13-06, 01:25 PM A Wizard's nature may well be to cast spells. It is not necessarily in his nature to freely give them away. Supposing we do have a Dominated wizard, let's run this through the scenario machine:

A) The Dominated wizard is a devout LG type, and you are the evil mastermind who needs a wish to start your apocalyptic plan. The wizard is aware of this. It is not likely in his nature to cast a Wish spell that will have such horrible side effects.

B) The Dominated wizard is a TN follower of Boccob. You seek to use the power of a Wish to wipe the magic from an area. The Wizard is intrigued. DM's call as to whether disrupting magic is "against his nature".

C) The evil wizard doesn't care about anyone or anything. You attempt to use a Wish to unveil the location of a horrific apocalyptic thing. The wizard doesn't care, other than the loss of XP.

As wish is such a versatile spell which can be used for nearly anything, it comes down to a DM call as to whether the use of the wish is against the nature of the wizard. Generally, the command would be along the lines of "I order you to Wish for X", thus the wizard is already aware on some level of the effects of the wish prior to determining if it fits within his nature.
Thiez
09-13-06, 01:28 PM I think obeying the orders of someone who dominates me is against my nature.

This would make just about anyone practically imune to dominate person. 'Against your nature' should, imho, be something more significant than merely wishing for something you normally wouldn't wish for.
Seeker95
09-13-06, 01:30 PM OK, suppose you are a vampire. Will it work if you kill a wizard and turn him into your spawn? Could you order him to learn and cast a wish in this case?Yes. But a wise DM will start a new campaign if you choose to do this with any semblance of frequency.

Then again, the wise DM didn't let you play a vampire in the first place. :P
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 01:34 PM Okay, neither the DMG nor the Monster Manual have anything concrete to say about the vampire spawn casting Wish for his vampire scenario. Libris Mortis, however, has this to say:
Calling any portion of the bond between spawn and creator "affection" may be going too far, but spawn are definitely slavish in their attention to every detail of their creators' wishes. Spawn never hesitate to take any action commanded by their creators, even if that action leads to certain destruction.
So, if you go by the variants and elaboration and fluff in Libris Mortis, having enslaved spawn allows a far greater degree of control than Dominate, and you can force an enslaved spawn into Wishing for things for you.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 01:35 PM Then again, the wise DM didn't let you play a vampire in the first place. :P
Heh, one of the few times I actually agree with this guy.
Sian_Son_of_Cune
09-13-06, 01:42 PM Anyway you look at it, the wizard will cast the wish. The question is whether or not he gets a second save. In some instances I would (i.e. LG mage wishing for the death of innocents), in others he would not.
mvincent
09-13-06, 02:18 PM 'Against your nature' should, imho, be something more significant than merely wishing for something you normally wouldn't wish for.I personally believe that giving up 5,000 XP for free is very much against the nature of most wizards*. I would likely have an easier time convincing a Paladin that everyone in an orphanage was fiendish and needed to be destroyed.

* I'm sure you might find a few altruistic wizards that aren't concerned about losing XP and power... but they probably aren't very powerful.
aser
09-13-06, 02:21 PM No reason to worry, it's not about getting a "wish" at low levels :) It's about reviving an ancient lich ;)

Suppose the very ancient lich decides for some uncomprehensible reasons to be alive again. True Resurrection does not work because he is dead (well, undead) more then 200 years. It looks like if he has a chance at all, it is a wish.

But in order to be revived he has to be first killed. I think, a lich will not agree to be killed (and phylactery destroyed) even if the most devoted follower promises him to revive him afterwards. What if the follower cheats? What if after the lich's true death the follower will change his mind? To be sure, the lich could dominate his follower and order him to kill him (the lich) and than wish for his revival. The question is, is it possible within D&D mechanic?

If you would ask "why he wants to be alive again": for the same incomprehensible reasons he wants to lose a level. Were he alive, he could allow a monster with energy drain to attack him, wait 24 hours and voluntarily fail his save.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 02:27 PM Oh, in a case like that, the lich is better off looking for a Miracle, not a Wish. Preferably from a diety that highly values life, hates the undead, but doesn't care about "the natural order" -- ie, a deity that would care more about removing an undead creature and recreating a living one, rather than "OMG you broke the life/death cycle you go to hell!!"

Going above and beyond the standard powers of Miracle is easier than going above and beyond the standard powers of Wish. Wish twists and blows up in your face if you step over the limits. Miracle either simply fails, or happens, depending on how the deity views what you're asking for. Divine intervention is handy like that.
lint trap
09-13-06, 03:16 PM OK, I'll bite.

What if you Dominate (or hell, just Charm Monster) an Efreeti instead. The only restrictions on its Wish is 3/day for any non-genie. Is this not a reasonable way to (bad mental image coming up) milk the Efreeti for all the wishes you want?
CryoSilver
09-13-06, 03:21 PM A few other little quibbles:

The wizard couldn't cast Wish if it would drop him a level, severely limiting the number of times he could do so.

Where exactly are you finding said random wiz 17+? Do the grow on trees in your campaign world?

He's gonna be freakin' POed when the Domination wears off.
elondir
09-13-06, 03:24 PM OK, I'll bite.

What if you Dominate (or hell, just Charm Monster) an Efreeti instead. The only restrictions on its Wish is 3/day for any non-genie. Is this not a reasonable way to (bad mental image coming up) milk the Efreeti for all the wishes you want?

That could get into Pun-Pun territory if you let it! Of course the efreeti will try to corrupt all the wishes (DMs faced with that should have all the devious fun they want)!
Thiez
09-13-06, 03:39 PM Why would he corrupt the wish? You could charm the efreet too, then it'd try to fulfill the wish in the most favorable way.
JadeSpider9643
09-13-06, 03:56 PM Sucks that I'm at work or I could probably find the exact source, but it's mentioned somewhere that dominated/controlled creatures can not be FORCED to use spell-like abilities that have an XP component. So the efreeti can't be forced to cast wish for you.

as for forcing generic wizards/other I'm unsure on that point. I'd say it varies depending on which spell is used to dominate, and how clever/cautious the dominator is. I can see some DMs letting you force the wizard to CAST wish...but letting the wording be determined by the wizard, possibly even subverted. And while there's no rules basis for it, I can see some DMs making the dominator pay the XP cost...it'd probably be 'fair' but it would definitly take some of the glory out of it.
Thiez
09-13-06, 04:08 PM If i remember correctly spell-like abilities don't have XP components, so wish shouldn't be a problem with efreeti.
mvincent
09-13-06, 05:21 PM Sucks that I'm at work or I could probably find the exact source, but it's mentioned somewhere that dominated/controlled creatures can not be FORCED to use spell-like abilities that have an XP component. Are you possibly confusing it with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)?:
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."
JadeSpider9643
09-13-06, 08:48 PM Are you possibly confusing it with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)?:
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."

Yes, Yes I would be.
Seeker95
09-13-06, 10:14 PM I agree with Shaggy. Miracle is what you seek.
The Simbul
09-14-06, 02:35 AM Is it possible to dominate (using a spell with the same name) a high-level wizard and order him to cast a wish?Yes. If the wizard fails the saving throw, isnt under the effect of protection from chaos/evil/good/law, mindblank, wearing a ring of mental fortitude, or any of a dozen other potential protections.taking into account that usually wizards have low Will saves.Really? While everyone's PCs and NPCs are different, I just so happen to have an NPC sun elf wizard 10/loremaster 10 has a consistent will save of +40 against enchantment spells and effects...and that is using the standard elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and the wealth per character level of an NPC, with the market price reductions that come with crafting her own magic items (30% discount off market price for NPCs, XP cost is just re-distributed into a gp cost)

BSB +14 (wiz10 +7/lor10 +7)
Base wisdom score 13
wish for inherent bonus to wisdom +5 (raises wisdom to 18)
periapt of wisdom +6 (raises wisdom to 24)
Iron Will feat (+2)
Discipline regional feat (+2)
secrets of inner stength loremaster secret (+2)
cloak of resistance +5 (+5 resistance)
luckblade (+1 luck)
pale green prism ioun stone (+1 competence)
elven traits (+2 racial bonus vs. enchantment)
Telkirra (+4 insight, see Lost Empires of Faerun)

Meanwhile, she also has a mindblank and moment of prescience spell cast every day, the former makes her immune to mind-affecting effects, while the latter can give her up to a +20 bonus to a saving throw. Meanwhile, she also bears a contingency for a greater heroism spell (which gives +4 morale to saves) to go off whenever she is targeted with an "attack" (where the word "attack" is as defined under the conditions that would end a sanctuary or invisibility spell, including targeted spells aimed at her). Thus one would first need to sucessfully dispel all three of those to have even a remote chance of dominating her, and even then her luckblade (which while it has no more wishes, it is still a +2 sword that grants +1 luck to all saves and allows a re-roll of any failed save once per day) can undo the misfortune of rolling a 1 or just a very poor roll.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aser 09-13-06, 12:54 PM	Is it possible to dominate (using a spell with the same name) a high-level wizard and order him to cast a wish? If yes, it could be a cheep way to cash wishes, taking into account that usually wizards have low Will saves. Of course, after casting wish the wizard has to be killed to prevent some kind of retribution :D
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 12:58 PM	I think casting a spell that expends xp falls vaguely under the heading of obviously self-destructive orders. It's not completely destructive, but the subject is basically sacrificing a bit of his life-force, spirit, memory, whatever you want to call it, any time he expends xp.
kliate 09-13-06, 12:59 PM	Well, first you have to get through the Wizard's strong point - a Will Save. Then, if the Wizard isn't very inclined to cast a Wish anyway, he gets a second save with a +2 bonus. Add onto that the fact that the Wizard may not have even prepared Wish that day, and so you may have to wait until after the Wizard has prepared additional spells. This also assumes the Wizard hasn't already prevented this possibility with a Mind Blank spell. So, it seems to me that you could try, but it's not a very reliable process.
aser 09-13-06, 01:09 PM	OK, suppose you are a vampire. Will it work if you kill a wizard and turn him into your spawn? Could you order him to learn and cast a wish in this case?
aser 09-13-06, 01:16 PM	Then, if the Wizard isn't very inclined to cast a Wish anyway, he gets a second save with a +2 bonus. Why? Dominate states that the target makes the second save if "forced to take actions against its nature". The description do not state that the target must be willing to execute orders. I suppose, an example of an order that is "against a nature" of a target would be to order a paladine to murder a dozen of infants. Why casting a wish is "against a nature" of a wizard? I think, it's perfectly in his nature - he is a wizard, after all.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 01:20 PM	If he's wishing for something he would ordinarily be opposed to wish for, it's still against his nature. Same as if you ordered a LG wizard to Fireball an orphanage... Fireball isn't against his nature, wholesale slaughter of orphans is. As for the vampire ordering one of its spawn to Wish for something for him, that one I'm not sure of. I need to look up the specifics on spawn enslavement, I'll get back to it if I find anything solid either way. I will note that at the ECL a vampire can have a spawn powerful enough to cast Wish, the vampire is at least ECL 17 and probably has better options available, if he's resourceful.
kliate 09-13-06, 01:25 PM	A Wizard's nature may well be to cast spells. It is not necessarily in his nature to freely give them away. Supposing we do have a Dominated wizard, let's run this through the scenario machine: A) The Dominated wizard is a devout LG type, and you are the evil mastermind who needs a wish to start your apocalyptic plan. The wizard is aware of this. It is not likely in his nature to cast a Wish spell that will have such horrible side effects. B) The Dominated wizard is a TN follower of Boccob. You seek to use the power of a Wish to wipe the magic from an area. The Wizard is intrigued. DM's call as to whether disrupting magic is "against his nature". C) The evil wizard doesn't care about anyone or anything. You attempt to use a Wish to unveil the location of a horrific apocalyptic thing. The wizard doesn't care, other than the loss of XP. As wish is such a versatile spell which can be used for nearly anything, it comes down to a DM call as to whether the use of the wish is against the nature of the wizard. Generally, the command would be along the lines of "I order you to Wish for X", thus the wizard is already aware on some level of the effects of the wish prior to determining if it fits within his nature.
Thiez 09-13-06, 01:28 PM	I think obeying the orders of someone who dominates me is against my nature. This would make just about anyone practically imune to dominate person. 'Against your nature' should, imho, be something more significant than merely wishing for something you normally wouldn't wish for.
Seeker95 09-13-06, 01:30 PM	OK, suppose you are a vampire. Will it work if you kill a wizard and turn him into your spawn? Could you order him to learn and cast a wish in this case?Yes. But a wise DM will start a new campaign if you choose to do this with any semblance of frequency. Then again, the wise DM didn't let you play a vampire in the first place. :P
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 01:34 PM	Okay, neither the DMG nor the Monster Manual have anything concrete to say about the vampire spawn casting Wish for his vampire scenario. Libris Mortis, however, has this to say: Calling any portion of the bond between spawn and creator "affection" may be going too far, but spawn are definitely slavish in their attention to every detail of their creators' wishes. Spawn never hesitate to take any action commanded by their creators, even if that action leads to certain destruction. So, if you go by the variants and elaboration and fluff in Libris Mortis, having enslaved spawn allows a far greater degree of control than Dominate, and you can force an enslaved spawn into Wishing for things for you.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 01:35 PM	Then again, the wise DM didn't let you play a vampire in the first place. :P Heh, one of the few times I actually agree with this guy.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-13-06, 01:42 PM	Anyway you look at it, the wizard will cast the wish. The question is whether or not he gets a second save. In some instances I would (i.e. LG mage wishing for the death of innocents), in others he would not.
mvincent 09-13-06, 02:18 PM	'Against your nature' should, imho, be something more significant than merely wishing for something you normally wouldn't wish for.I personally believe that giving up 5,000 XP for free is very much against the nature of most wizards. I would likely have an easier time convincing a Paladin that everyone in an orphanage was fiendish and needed to be destroyed. I'm sure you might find a few altruistic wizards that aren't concerned about losing XP and power... but they probably aren't very powerful.
aser 09-13-06, 02:21 PM	No reason to worry, it's not about getting a "wish" at low levels :) It's about reviving an ancient lich ;) Suppose the very ancient lich decides for some uncomprehensible reasons to be alive again. True Resurrection does not work because he is dead (well, undead) more then 200 years. It looks like if he has a chance at all, it is a wish. But in order to be revived he has to be first killed. I think, a lich will not agree to be killed (and phylactery destroyed) even if the most devoted follower promises him to revive him afterwards. What if the follower cheats? What if after the lich's true death the follower will change his mind? To be sure, the lich could dominate his follower and order him to kill him (the lich) and than wish for his revival. The question is, is it possible within D&D mechanic? If you would ask "why he wants to be alive again": for the same incomprehensible reasons he wants to lose a level. Were he alive, he could allow a monster with energy drain to attack him, wait 24 hours and voluntarily fail his save.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 02:27 PM	Oh, in a case like that, the lich is better off looking for a Miracle, not a Wish. Preferably from a diety that highly values life, hates the undead, but doesn't care about "the natural order" -- ie, a deity that would care more about removing an undead creature and recreating a living one, rather than "OMG you broke the life/death cycle you go to hell!!" Going above and beyond the standard powers of Miracle is easier than going above and beyond the standard powers of Wish. Wish twists and blows up in your face if you step over the limits. Miracle either simply fails, or happens, depending on how the deity views what you're asking for. Divine intervention is handy like that.
lint trap 09-13-06, 03:16 PM	OK, I'll bite. What if you Dominate (or hell, just Charm Monster) an Efreeti instead. The only restrictions on its Wish is 3/day for any non-genie. Is this not a reasonable way to (bad mental image coming up) milk the Efreeti for all the wishes you want?
CryoSilver 09-13-06, 03:21 PM	A few other little quibbles: The wizard couldn't cast Wish if it would drop him a level, severely limiting the number of times he could do so. Where exactly are you finding said random wiz 17+? Do the grow on trees in your campaign world? He's gonna be freakin' POed when the Domination wears off.
elondir 09-13-06, 03:24 PM	OK, I'll bite. What if you Dominate (or hell, just Charm Monster) an Efreeti instead. The only restrictions on its Wish is 3/day for any non-genie. Is this not a reasonable way to (bad mental image coming up) milk the Efreeti for all the wishes you want? That could get into Pun-Pun territory if you let it! Of course the efreeti will try to corrupt all the wishes (DMs faced with that should have all the devious fun they want)!
Thiez 09-13-06, 03:39 PM	Why would he corrupt the wish? You could charm the efreet too, then it'd try to fulfill the wish in the most favorable way.
JadeSpider9643 09-13-06, 03:56 PM	Sucks that I'm at work or I could probably find the exact source, but it's mentioned somewhere that dominated/controlled creatures can not be FORCED to use spell-like abilities that have an XP component. So the efreeti can't be forced to cast wish for you. as for forcing generic wizards/other I'm unsure on that point. I'd say it varies depending on which spell is used to dominate, and how clever/cautious the dominator is. I can see some DMs letting you force the wizard to CAST wish...but letting the wording be determined by the wizard, possibly even subverted. And while there's no rules basis for it, I can see some DMs making the dominator pay the XP cost...it'd probably be 'fair' but it would definitly take some of the glory out of it.
Thiez 09-13-06, 04:08 PM	If i remember correctly spell-like abilities don't have XP components, so wish shouldn't be a problem with efreeti.
mvincent 09-13-06, 05:21 PM	Sucks that I'm at work or I could probably find the exact source, but it's mentioned somewhere that dominated/controlled creatures can not be FORCED to use spell-like abilities that have an XP component. Are you possibly confusing it with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)?: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells."
JadeSpider9643 09-13-06, 08:48 PM	Are you possibly confusing it with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)?: "A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells." Yes, Yes I would be.
Seeker95 09-13-06, 10:14 PM	I agree with Shaggy. Miracle is what you seek.
The Simbul 09-14-06, 02:35 AM	Is it possible to dominate (using a spell with the same name) a high-level wizard and order him to cast a wish?Yes. If the wizard fails the saving throw, isnt under the effect of protection from chaos/evil/good/law, mindblank, wearing a ring of mental fortitude, or any of a dozen other potential protections.taking into account that usually wizards have low Will saves.Really? While everyone's PCs and NPCs are different, I just so happen to have an NPC sun elf wizard 10/loremaster 10 has a consistent will save of +40 against enchantment spells and effects...and that is using the standard elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and the wealth per character level of an NPC, with the market price reductions that come with crafting her own magic items (30% discount off market price for NPCs, XP cost is just re-distributed into a gp cost) BSB +14 (wiz10 +7/lor10 +7) Base wisdom score 13 wish for inherent bonus to wisdom +5 (raises wisdom to 18) periapt of wisdom +6 (raises wisdom to 24) Iron Will feat (+2) Discipline regional feat (+2) secrets of inner stength loremaster secret (+2) cloak of resistance +5 (+5 resistance) luckblade (+1 luck) pale green prism ioun stone (+1 competence) elven traits (+2 racial bonus vs. enchantment) Telkirra (+4 insight, see Lost Empires of Faerun) Meanwhile, she also has a mindblank and moment of prescience spell cast every day, the former makes her immune to mind-affecting effects, while the latter can give her up to a +20 bonus to a saving throw. Meanwhile, she also bears a contingency for a greater heroism spell (which gives +4 morale to saves) to go off whenever she is targeted with an "attack" (where the word "attack" is as defined under the conditions that would end a sanctuary or invisibility spell, including targeted spells aimed at her). Thus one would first need to sucessfully dispel all three of those to have even a remote chance of dominating her, and even then her luckblade (which while it has no more wishes, it is still a +2 sword that grants +1 luck to all saves and allows a re-roll of any failed save once per day) can undo the misfortune of rolling a 1 or just a very poor roll.