"You" vs "The Caster" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"You" vs "The Caster" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
IMarvinTPA
12-05-04, 01:36 PM Hi,
Here's an interesting debate I haven't seen before.
I prefer the word "You" over the phrase "The caster" when used in a spell's body. Both of these refer to the same creature and have the same game results, so the difference is purely aesthetics.

I prefer "You," because the sentences come out friendlier, cleaner, and shorter. It appears to be the preferred choice based on the SRD. "The caster" appears in only 26 spells in the SRD while "You" appears in practically all of them. And if you review those 26 spells with "the caster" in them, they also use the word "You" and are forced to use "the caster" in places where the word "You" would either be ambiguous or awkward.

So, why do people write spells with the words "the caster" instead of "You" if the templates we should work with do not?

Thanks,
IMarv
Someone
12-05-04, 02:34 PM Well, things might get wierd when "the caster" has the spell affect "you". Things like "duration is based on the caster's level" don't quite work as "duriation is based on your level". A spell shouldn't get better or worse because of your level, unless you are the one casting it.

Now, I could understand distinguishing between you (the caster) and you (the recipient/ target).
IMarvinTPA
12-05-04, 02:41 PM The poor person being hit by a spell is always "the target", "the targets", "the subject", or "the subjects" of the spell. If the caster happens to be one of those, its because he cast it upon himself. There are no examples of spells where the word "You" referes to anyone other than the caster.

Generally Target(s) is used when the Effect/Area/Target(s) line is Target(s), and Subjects is used for Effect and Area spells.

IMarv
Seeker95
12-05-04, 03:10 PM So, why do people write spells with the words "the caster" instead of "You" if the templates we should work with do not?Because I (the DM) am not the caster. And I (the designer) make my spells for all of the players of the game, including the DMs, the players who are learning about the spells but are not the casters, and the players of characters who may be going up against casters.
IMarvinTPA
12-05-04, 04:18 PM I like Seeker95's answer, it just isn't what Wizards went with when making the game with the SRD. I looked at all 26 of the spells and found that they don't really support the point of view for ambiguity.

I should have done the research before hand and said 1 spell would cause ambiguity.

Alphabetically:

Legend: *, nonambigous (9); ~, potential ambiguity (1); ., game term (4); ), Divine supplement (2); <, Other caster (10)

*Arcane Mark: "The mark cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed by the caster or by an erase spell." This is the only location within the whole spell, and it could easily be replaced with "You" understandably. The spell otherwise uses You and Your everywhere else.

~Armor of Darkness: "The shroud can, if the caster desires, conceal the wearer's features." Potentially Ambiguous, given.

.Banishment: "Certain rare items might work twice as well as a normal item for the purpose of the bonuses (each providing a +2 bonus on the caster level check against spell resistance and increasing the save DC by 4)." This is a keyword hit that refers to a specific game term "caster level."

)Genesis: This spell appears to favor The Caster for the whole spell. It is also a supplemental spell compared to the original SRD spells. This spell would not be ambiguous with You.

<Globe of Invulnerability: "If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether globe of invulnerability stops it."
This instance does not refer to you, but some random caster (possibly you) casting within the sphere.

<Lesser Globe: In my database, I replace spell texts that contain (as spell xxx) with the actual spell texts and edit accordingly.

*Heal: "It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level." Is written incorrectly and hits the keyword search. It should read "It also cures 10 hit points of damage per caster level (maximum 150)."

*Hideous Laughter: "A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't translate well." This spell refers to your type. But would not be ambiguous.

*Lullaby: "Lullaby lasts for as long as the caster concentrates, plus up to 1 round per caster level thereafter." This spell would not be ambiguous.

<Misdirection: "Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds on a Will save." The Caster in this spell refers to another spell caster other than you.

*Neutralize Poison: "This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for the duration of the spell, at the caster's option." The spell otherwise discusses the caster as "You".

<Nondetection: "If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection." Again, "the caster" refers to another person. The potential second instance is a spot that needs the specificity, and "you who cast nondetection" just sounds weird.

.Prismatic Sphere: "Spell resistance is effective against a Prismatic sphere, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present." This is a reference to a game term, "caster level" and not the person casting.

.Prismatic Wall: "Spell resistance is effective against a Prismatic sphere, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present." This is a reference to a game term, "caster level" and not the person casting.

<Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)." Refers to somebody who isn't you.

.Quench: "The DC to dispel such spells is 11 + the caster level of the fire spell." A reference to "caster level," a game term.

*Simulacrum: "A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check." Another "possession" of yours.

<Spell Turning: "For damaging spells, you and the caster each take a fraction of the damage. For nondamaging spells, each of you has a proportional chance to be affected." The caster refers to somebody who isn't you.

*Status: "Once the spell has been cast upon the subjects, the distance between them and the caster does not affect the spell as long as they are on the same plane of existence." This could just as easily be written with "You" instead of "the caster."

<Storm of Vengeance: "Spells cast within the area are disrupted unless the caster succeeds on a Concentration check against a DC equal to the storm of vengeance's save DC + the level of the spell the caster is trying to cast." The caster refers to somebody who isn't you.

*Summon Swarm: "The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel." This could just as easily be written with You.

(True Creation: the whole spell, like Genesis, is not from the core SRD. It could easily be written with You instead.

*Wall of force: "The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails." I see no reason why this couldn't have said "You" instead.

The theme seems to be so far, if it is something the caster possession or property or somebody else entirely.

So, why are whole spells written with "the caster?"

From the numbers, 9 of them should have been rewritten to use You and must have been missed when normalizing the person. A whole 10 of them refer to somebody who isn't the person casting the spell! 2 of them were written after the main bulk of them were. And 4 of them don't refer to the caster or you, but a game term. Which leaves us with one spell that might be ambiguous, and anybody reading any other set of spells would be able to figure that one out.

Food for thought,

IMarv
Seeker95
12-05-04, 04:25 PM Food for thoughtIt would be an empty meal.

The rules are written for players. Not player characters.
*You* don't do anything with a spell. Your character does.
As a rulebook, the PHB describes what the spell does. Not what you do.
cwslyclgh
12-05-04, 04:52 PM personaly I prefer spells to be written in the 3rd person (ie "The caster")... although in all honesty it may just be because that is the way they were written for the 20 or so years that I played D&D before 3e came out...
Nom
12-05-04, 05:45 PM Actually, Seeker, the spells section (chapters 10 and 11) of the PH is unashamedly written to the second person. The expression "you" abounds, and is always used to refer to the character casting the spell.

Come to think of it, the same terminology is used in chapters 4 and 5 (skills and feats). The PH rules blur the line between player and character, and use "you" frequently.

Marvin, I'd suggest that the choice of "the caster" (3rd person) or "you" (2nd person) is a stylistic one made by whoever wrote the text of the spell in question, and has no rules significance. Most people find 2nd person easier to use.
IMarvinTPA
12-05-04, 05:56 PM Marvin, I'd suggest that the choice of "the caster" (3rd person) or "you" (2nd person) is a stylistic one made by whoever wrote the text of the spell in question, and has no rules significance. Most people find 2nd person easier to use.

I agree, I just wish everybody would stick to the same style. It makes compiling a database look uneven when the style keeps changing. I'm investigating why the two schools of thought exist and defending the "You" choice.

IMarv

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IMarvinTPA 12-05-04, 01:36 PM	Hi, Here's an interesting debate I haven't seen before. I prefer the word "You" over the phrase "The caster" when used in a spell's body. Both of these refer to the same creature and have the same game results, so the difference is purely aesthetics. I prefer "You," because the sentences come out friendlier, cleaner, and shorter. It appears to be the preferred choice based on the SRD. "The caster" appears in only 26 spells in the SRD while "You" appears in practically all of them. And if you review those 26 spells with "the caster" in them, they also use the word "You" and are forced to use "the caster" in places where the word "You" would either be ambiguous or awkward. So, why do people write spells with the words "the caster" instead of "You" if the templates we should work with do not? Thanks, IMarv
Someone 12-05-04, 02:34 PM	Well, things might get wierd when "the caster" has the spell affect "you". Things like "duration is based on the caster's level" don't quite work as "duriation is based on your level". A spell shouldn't get better or worse because of your level, unless you are the one casting it. Now, I could understand distinguishing between you (the caster) and you (the recipient/ target).
IMarvinTPA 12-05-04, 02:41 PM	The poor person being hit by a spell is always "the target", "the targets", "the subject", or "the subjects" of the spell. If the caster happens to be one of those, its because he cast it upon himself. There are no examples of spells where the word "You" referes to anyone other than the caster. Generally Target(s) is used when the Effect/Area/Target(s) line is Target(s), and Subjects is used for Effect and Area spells. IMarv
Seeker95 12-05-04, 03:10 PM	So, why do people write spells with the words "the caster" instead of "You" if the templates we should work with do not?Because I (the DM) am not the caster. And I (the designer) make my spells for all of the players of the game, including the DMs, the players who are learning about the spells but are not the casters, and the players of characters who may be going up against casters.
IMarvinTPA 12-05-04, 04:18 PM	I like Seeker95's answer, it just isn't what Wizards went with when making the game with the SRD. I looked at all 26 of the spells and found that they don't really support the point of view for ambiguity. I should have done the research before hand and said 1 spell would cause ambiguity. Alphabetically: Legend: , nonambigous (9); ~, potential ambiguity (1); ., game term (4); ), Divine supplement (2); <, Other caster (10) Arcane Mark: "The mark cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed by the caster or by an erase spell." This is the only location within the whole spell, and it could easily be replaced with "You" understandably. The spell otherwise uses You and Your everywhere else. ~Armor of Darkness: "The shroud can, if the caster desires, conceal the wearer's features." Potentially Ambiguous, given. .Banishment: "Certain rare items might work twice as well as a normal item for the purpose of the bonuses (each providing a +2 bonus on the caster level check against spell resistance and increasing the save DC by 4)." This is a keyword hit that refers to a specific game term "caster level." )Genesis: This spell appears to favor The Caster for the whole spell. It is also a supplemental spell compared to the original SRD spells. This spell would not be ambiguous with You. <Globe of Invulnerability: "If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether globe of invulnerability stops it." This instance does not refer to you, but some random caster (possibly you) casting within the sphere. <Lesser Globe: In my database, I replace spell texts that contain (as spell xxx) with the actual spell texts and edit accordingly. Heal: "It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level." Is written incorrectly and hits the keyword search. It should read "It also cures 10 hit points of damage per caster level (maximum 150)." Hideous Laughter: "A creature whose type is different from the caster's receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn't translate well." This spell refers to your type. But would not be ambiguous. Lullaby: "Lullaby lasts for as long as the caster concentrates, plus up to 1 round per caster level thereafter." This spell would not be ambiguous. <Misdirection: "Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds on a Will save." The Caster in this spell refers to another spell caster other than you. Neutralize Poison: "This spell can instead neutralize the poison in a poisonous creature or object for the duration of the spell, at the caster's option." The spell otherwise discusses the caster as "You". <Nondetection: "If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection." Again, "the caster" refers to another person. The potential second instance is a spot that needs the specificity, and "you who cast nondetection" just sounds weird. .Prismatic Sphere: "Spell resistance is effective against a Prismatic sphere, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present." This is a reference to a game term, "caster level" and not the person casting. .Prismatic Wall: "Spell resistance is effective against a Prismatic sphere, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present." This is a reference to a game term, "caster level" and not the person casting. <Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)." Refers to somebody who isn't you. .Quench: "The DC to dispel such spells is 11 + the caster level of the fire spell." A reference to "caster level," a game term. Simulacrum: "A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check." Another "possession" of yours. <Spell Turning: "For damaging spells, you and the caster each take a fraction of the damage. For nondamaging spells, each of you has a proportional chance to be affected." The caster refers to somebody who isn't you. Status: "Once the spell has been cast upon the subjects, the distance between them and the caster does not affect the spell as long as they are on the same plane of existence." This could just as easily be written with "You" instead of "the caster." <Storm of Vengeance: "Spells cast within the area are disrupted unless the caster succeeds on a Concentration check against a DC equal to the storm of vengeance's save DC + the level of the spell the caster is trying to cast." The caster refers to somebody who isn't you. Summon Swarm: "The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel." This could just as easily be written with You. (True Creation: the whole spell, like Genesis, is not from the core SRD. It could easily be written with You instead. Wall of force: "The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails." I see no reason why this couldn't have said "You" instead. The theme seems to be so far, if it is something the caster possession or property or somebody else entirely. So, why are whole spells written with "the caster?" From the numbers, 9 of them should have been rewritten to use You and must have been missed when normalizing the person. A whole 10 of them refer to somebody who isn't the person casting the spell! 2 of them were written after the main bulk of them were. And 4 of them don't refer to the caster or you, but a game term. Which leaves us with one spell that might be ambiguous, and anybody reading any other set of spells would be able to figure that one out. Food for thought, IMarv
Seeker95 12-05-04, 04:25 PM	Food for thoughtIt would be an empty meal. The rules are written for players. Not player characters. You don't do anything with a spell. Your character does. As a rulebook, the PHB describes what the spell does. Not what you do.
cwslyclgh 12-05-04, 04:52 PM	personaly I prefer spells to be written in the 3rd person (ie "The caster")... although in all honesty it may just be because that is the way they were written for the 20 or so years that I played D&D before 3e came out...
Nom 12-05-04, 05:45 PM	Actually, Seeker, the spells section (chapters 10 and 11) of the PH is unashamedly written to the second person. The expression "you" abounds, and is always used to refer to the character casting the spell. Come to think of it, the same terminology is used in chapters 4 and 5 (skills and feats). The PH rules blur the line between player and character, and use "you" frequently. Marvin, I'd suggest that the choice of "the caster" (3rd person) or "you" (2nd person) is a stylistic one made by whoever wrote the text of the spell in question, and has no rules significance. Most people find 2nd person easier to use.
IMarvinTPA 12-05-04, 05:56 PM	Marvin, I'd suggest that the choice of "the caster" (3rd person) or "you" (2nd person) is a stylistic one made by whoever wrote the text of the spell in question, and has no rules significance. Most people find 2nd person easier to use. I agree, I just wish everybody would stick to the same style. It makes compiling a database look uneven when the style keeps changing. I'm investigating why the two schools of thought exist and defending the "You" choice. IMarv