Post/Author/DateTime	Post
redkite 07-26-05, 04:18 PM	Animal Growth bestows DR 10/Magic on animals. Do the animals now bypass DR/Magic with their natural attacks?
AlexVADnD 07-26-05, 04:21 PM	I would say no. However, you can cast Magic Fang (or Greater) and get the results you were looking for...
redkite 07-26-05, 04:29 PM	I base my question on the fact that creatures in the MM with DR/Magic bypass this DR with their natural attacks. So would magically bestowing DR/Magic accomplish the same thing?
gninja 07-26-05, 05:07 PM	MM page 307.. If they have DR #/Type, they overcome DR of the same type with their natural attacks. Unless there's anything that specifically contradicts that elsewhere. But just because they temporarily have the special quality, doesn't mean they don't get the full benefits of it.
TrustTymora 07-26-05, 10:14 PM	I base my question on the fact that creatures in the MM with DR/Magic bypass this DR with their natural attacks. So would magically bestowing DR/Magic accomplish the same thing? At first I was going to say NO. The reason being I didn't want the already over powered animal growth spell to be stretched even further into the realms of the uber powerful. But unfortunately it appears that the precedent is already set that in fact it does. I base this on the Celestial Lion example given in the MM pg31. Since a normal lion's natural attacks are not treated as magical but now since the celestial lion has DR 5/magic it is also given natural weapons that are treated as magical. Note that the fiendish rat does not get natural weapon that over comes DR/Magic because it is not given the DR/Magic special quality. TT
Colmarr 07-26-05, 11:24 PM	True, but a template changes the basic nature of the original creature. A spell doesn't. It simple grants the creature specific named benefits for the duration of the spell. The ability to overcome damage reduction isn't one of them. Edit: Further, the MM entry for DR reads as follows: Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons... Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Redkite's dire wolves (see the Fighter's Challenge II thread) are not naturally vulnerable to magic weapons. They have just been granted additional protection against everything else...
TrustTymora 07-27-05, 12:15 AM	Except that MM pg108 states: "If a fiendish creature gains damage reduction, its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." Celestial same thing. So I would still say the precedent has been established. If you gain DR/magic then you also gain natural weapons that are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Unless you have example where this doesn't occur! TT
TheMagister 07-27-05, 03:48 AM	The stoneskin spell. A wizard who enchants himself with the stoneskin spell has DR 10/adamantine, but his natural attacks do not ignore DR x/adamantine. A wizard is a creature, just like a...I dunno...a DIRE WOLF for example (I'm loving your battle, Red, btw.). I would say that you'd need to enchant the creatures with a magic fang spell to grant them the tools necessary to overcome DR/magic. TM
cwslyclgh 07-27-05, 03:56 AM	A wizard who enchants himself with the stoneskin spell has DR 10/adamantine, but his natural attacks do not ignore DR x/adamantine. DR/substance such as Admantine (IE DR as an EX ability) doesn't normaly give you the ability to over come DR of a similar type anyway does it... I thought only DR/Magic/Epic/Alignment type did that (IE DR as SU ability)
stamhaven 07-27-05, 11:11 AM	DR/ Adamantite does let you penetrate as adamantite, that's not the case for DR/Cold-Iron and DR/Silver (basically Wearwolves cant hurt each other with claws easily but Golems can smash each other easily). WotC didn't want stoneskin to grant the ability to penetrate DR with natual attacks as is the default with DR/adamantite so they listed an exception to that rule in the description, no such exception exists in the animal growth entry. Note righteous might grants DR/<alignment> but that doesn't let them penetrate the opposite as that ability comes from the aligned subtype and not the actual DR.
Colmarr 07-27-05, 05:18 PM	So I would still say the precedent has been established. Every instance that has been nominated of granted DR/X also giving the ability to overcome DR/X has been a template. No example has been given of a spell doing so. In fact, the only spells so far mentioned (Stoneskin and Righteous Might) do not grant the ability to overcome DR. So there's no "precedent" for this question, which is solely related to a spell.
TrustTymora 07-27-05, 06:03 PM	Like I said I want to argue No as well and I'm still looking for supporting material but right now the best piece of material in the core books that shows when a creature gets natural weapons that overcome DR is the fiendish and celestial templates. It clearly shows that if you have DR/magic then you have natural weapons treated as magical and that if you don't have DR/magic you don't get the natural weapons treated as magical. If it were an aspect of the template then you would get it regardless of having the DR/magic wouldn't you? This piece of material shows that the linkage of getting it is tied to DR/magic quality. The only other thing I can think of working on for the No side is something about a spell doing no more then what it says it does. In other words "fly" doesn't give you wings, and "water breathing" doesn't give you gills or the ability to swim. So animal growth gives you DR/magic but it does not say it gives you natural weapons treated as magical for overcomming DR therefore you don't get it. TT