Animate Dead 2.0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead 2.0 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KirkBb
12-23-06, 08:45 PM I'm playing a Dread Necromancer in a game right now, and I'm about to get access to 4th lvl spells, and started thinking "Wooh!, Animate Dead hear I come!" But I just realized how much undead will slow down combat, even if I animate dead with the maximum number of hit die I can control, I can still control 4 or 5 undead minions, and It only gets worse at higher levels.

So the first thing I thought of was to create a spell without the 20HD limit on undead.

Then I realized that really wouldn't work, given the small amount of enemies with that much HD flying around, it really isn't a fix, at least not all on its own.

So I thought of something else to work in conjunction with the idea from above, or all on its own. A kind of "enchantment" system. It works kind of like how armor or weapon enchantments work, you have your basic enhancement bonus like the +1 from a +1 flaming longsword. In the system I propose this enhancement bonus is like the undeads HD, you need to have HD before you can add any of the special abilities.
The special abilities don't count towards that 20HD limit on undead, its essentially the "+5" enhancement bonus that you can't go above, unless you decide to remove the limit like I suggested could be done earlier.
However, what you can do is add some of these, the Hit Die Adjustment is what you remove from your "pool" of HD of undead that you have left to animate, for instance, if you are an 10th level caster and you animate an undead with 20HD, you have 20HD left in your "pool" of HD you could animate, because a 10th level caster can animate up to 40HD worth of undead. If you wanted to add the abilities "Fiery Undead" and "Nimble Undead" to the undead you just created, you would have a 20HD undead, and 18HD left in your "pool"
Note: The first nine of these abilities was augmented from Libris Mortis. I'm not sure if this is a violation of the CoC or not because I changed them a bit and this is a very small part of that book (From what I understand, less than 1% is OK) Besides, if your using undead this much, you should have already gone out and bought the book :D

Fiery Undead
A fiery undead burns with unquenchable fl ame. Variants of the
fi ery undead include the lightning undead (deals electricity
damage, immunity to electricity) and the frost undead (deals
cold damage, immunity to cold).
Attack: A fi ery undead’s natural attacks deal an additional
1d6 points of fi re damage.
Special Qualities: Fiery undead have immunity to fi re,
but do not have immunity to cold.
CR Adjustment: +1/2
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1 HD

Nimble Undead
A nimble undead can pursue characters across unsteady terrain,
rock walls, narrow ledges, and the like.
Initiative: A nimble undead’s initiative modifi er increases
by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity.
Speed: A nimble undead has a climb speed equal to its base
land speed.
Armor Class: A nimble undead’s Armor Class and touch
AC increase by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity.
Abilities: A nimble undead gains an additional +4 bonus to
Dexterity.
CR Adjustment: +1/2.
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1 HD

Soldier Undead
The soldier undead works best in groups, and often originates
from mass battlefi eld graves.
Special Attacks: Cooperation (Ex): A soldier undead gains a +1
circumstance bonus to its attack rolls and Armor Class for each
other soldier undead that is adjacent to it. If a soldier undead
fl anks an opponent, it gains an additional +1 circumstance bonus
on attacks against that opponent.
Feats: If a soldier undead wields a weapon, it has Weapon
Focus in that weapon as a bonus feat. The soldier undead also
gains Combat Refl exes as a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD

Vicious Undead
Vicious undead seem to take mindless pleasure in disemboweling
their victims with their devastating claw attacks. Zombies gain a claw attack that does damage equal to that of a skeleton.
Attack: A vicious undead’s claw attacks deal damage as if it were
a skeleton one size category larger than normal (if the
creature is already Colossal, the claw attack deals 3d8 points of
damage).
Special Attacks: Rend (Ex): If a vicious undead hits with at
least two claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and
tears the fl esh. This attack automatically deals extra damage
equal to twice the normal damage of a claw attack plus 1-1/2
times the vicious undead’s Strength bonus.
Feats: Vicious undead gain Improved Critical (claw) as a
bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD

Bloodthirsty Undead
The bloodthirsty undead doesn’t just want to destroy you, it wants
to crack open your skull and feast on the goo inside.
Attack: A bloodthirsty undead gains a bite attack that deals
the same damage as its slam or claw attack (or its normal bite damage,
whichever is more). (Bloodthirsty undead also have a slam or claw attack
as normal, but most don’t use it.)
Special Attacks: Blood Drain (Ex): If the bloodthirsty undead
scores a critical hit with its bite against a living creature, that
creature takes 1 point of Constitution damage.
Feats: Bloodthirsty zombies gain Improved Critical (bite) as
a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1.
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD

Diseased Undead
What better carrier for a horrible disease than a rotting
corpse?
Special Attacks: Disease (Ex): Any successful melee attack
by a diseased undead exposes the target to a disease (fi lth fever).
Any creature making a successful unarmed or natural attack
against a diseased undead is similarly exposed (a character who
grapples with a diseased zombie gets a –4 penalty on the save
made to resist infection).
CR Adjustment: +1/2.
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD

This ones for Zombies only
Fast Zombie
Slow zombies are funny. They’re easy to escape on foot and can’t
run at all. After an encounter with fast zombies, the characters
won’t be laughing.
Speed: Add 30 feet to base land speed, up to a maximum of
twice the zombie’s normal base land speed. Fast zombies can
run normally.
Armor Class: The fast zombie gains a +2 dodge bonus to
AC.
Special Qualities: The fast zombie is not restricted to taking
single actions only. However, it still cannot attack more than
once per round.
CR Adjustment: +1/2
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2HD

Hunting Undead
It’s pretty easy to hide from a normal undead, but hunter undead
can follow and fi nd enemies with the power of scent.
Special Qualities: Hunter undead have the scent ability.
Feats: Hunter undead gain Track as a bonus feat.
Saves: The hunter undead’s Will save bonus increases by 2
thanks to its improved Wisdom score.
Abilities: Hunter undead have a Wisdom of 14.
Skills: Listen +6*, Spot +6*. *Includes a +4 racial bonus.
CR Adjustment: +1/2

Unkillable Undead
The undead in the Monster Manual are tough, but an unkillable
zombie is nigh-unstoppable.
Hit Points: An unkillable undead gains 1 hp per HD (thanks
to the Improved Toughness feat; see below).
Special Qualities: An unkillable undead gains fast healing
5.
Feats: An unkillable undead gains Improved Toughness (see
page 27) as a bonus feat.
CR Adjustment: +1
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD

Supernatural Ability Retainers
These undead hang on to the amazing supernatural abilities it had in life.
(Su): These undead do not get their supernatural abilities stripped away when the zombie or skeleton template is applied
CR Adjustment: ???
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ???

Spell-like Ability Retainers
These undead firmly grip the amazing magical power they once used to wield in life.
(Sp): These undead do not get their spell-like abilities stripped away when the zombie or skeleton template is applied.
CR Adjustment: ???
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ???

Extraordinary Ability Retainers
These undead manage to still use their extraordinary abilities, even in their now dessicating forms.
(Ex): These undead do not get their extraordinary abilities stripped away when the skeleton or zombie template is applied.
CR Adjustment: ???
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ???

The Toughened
These undead have bodies composed of tougher stuff than the rest of their ilk.
Natural Armor: A toughened undead gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC for every additional hit die you pour into it (see below)
CR Adjustment: +1/3 * Each additional Hit Die
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1*Each additional point of natural armor

The Flyers
These undead have negative energy that sprouts from their backs, producing a crude visage of wings.
Flight (Su): These undead gain a fly speed equal to double their land speed with good maneuverability.
CR Adjustment: +2
HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +4 HD

The Disguised
These undead appear as though they did in life.
(Ex) Death has not touched these undead in the slightest, each of them appears as though they did in life, and this is no illusion. These undead do not rot, but they do always seem to carry a vacant stare.
Cr Adjustment: ???
Hit Die Adjustment: +1 HD

I was thinking about making the HD adjustment for the Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like ability retainers equal to the undeads current HD, what do you guys think.
Looking for reviews, so please, post what you think of this idea.
katarl
12-24-06, 08:42 AM You could try bringing less than your maximum with you. I play a 14th level dread necromancer with undead leadership, and he usually only brings Big Blue (my zombie evolved fiendish augmented gray render) and maybe a few ghasts. Also, you could try simplifying the attack process to quicken things up.

I like your ideas a lot, though. Putting extra hd on top has been done before, (in Dragon), but was badly balanced, this is much better. A problem with balance in this is that it is extremely good for high hd creatures, especially unkillable, but almost useless for lower hd creatures like skeletons, but i'm sure players will only bulk up their best creatures anyway.

A few criticisms and points:

You left out hunting undeads hd;

Toughened undead is extremely weak, perhaps add an extra 2 hp per hd you add, or something similar? Disguised undead is usually handled by gentle repose made permanent, or my own system of making corpses that used to have tomb tainted soul look alive, but it wouldn't have a cr adjustment.

Supernatural and Spell-like ability retainers would be easily broken, imagine animating a marilith skeleton, or an efreet! Theres no real way of determining whats too powerful.

How exactly do necromancers add these enhancements? Do they require a feat, or expend extra components?
KirkBb
12-24-06, 08:39 PM Ah, sorry I forgot about the Hunting undead thing, its +1Hd.

A few things.

Don't you wind up feeling a little cheated out of alot of extra power when you bring only one undead minion with you though? I don't want to lose out on my own class abilities (one of the Dread Necro's biggest selling points are the bonus he gets to controlling undead and the undead he controls) but I don't want to make the game un-fun for other players.

What would you suggest for speeding up the attack process?
And I did kind of figure the toughened one was too weak, but figured it was one alot of people would spam to make it so they had only a few very hard to hit undead on them at a time.

I had already come to the conclusion that the retainer ones would be very hard to balance but thats why I put them up here, so someone would critize them so maybe there would be someway to fix and balance them.

Thanks for the review, hope others show some interest.
Echo_that_Pains
12-24-06, 09:03 PM Just a few more thoughts for you.

One idea is using Undead Commander (IIRC) from Spell Comp. which allows one intellegent undead to be able to give orders to your other undead for 24 hours. This could possibly speed up the RPing side of things. Just tell your DM what you command the undead to do and when the game reaches that point just assume that they show up.*****

The whole attack process is going to be tedious for the most part if you use followers end of story. Unless you do an "average" damage per undead that you create with your DM so you just roll their attack and apply the set damage. Just an idea, but even if you did this the rolling would still slow down combat somewhat.

I do like your HD pool idea. I have never thought of doing something like that and will have to discuss something like that with my DM for my DN. As already said it would really need to be balanced completely probably through playtesting since there are limitless ways to break something.

Good start - it will be very interesting to see what else we can develop from this idea.

***** Advice originally taken from Katarl from a past PM. If there is ever an undead player question/PEACH, he is the one to go to!
KirkBb
12-26-06, 10:17 AM Thanks for the praise, I'll try running a bunch of those ideas by my DM.
katarl
12-26-06, 02:49 PM Another thing to add, whats the limit you can enhance the undead? I'd suggest +50%, or maybe related to a key ability modifier? Also, what did you figure a necromancer would have to do or take to make these changes?

What would you suggest for speeding up the attack process?

Put all your most important details (current/max hp, ac, atk and damage) of your minions on one sheet, that way you can quickly make changes without having to look anything up, i've found it absolutely necessary to write up stats for every minion so as to not annoy the other players constantly looking up in the monster manual. Echo that pains idea of taking average damage is a very good idea with large numbers of undead.

Advice originally taken from Katarl from a past PM. If there is ever an undead player question/PEACH, he is the one to go to!

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KirkBb 12-23-06, 08:45 PM	I'm playing a Dread Necromancer in a game right now, and I'm about to get access to 4th lvl spells, and started thinking "Wooh!, Animate Dead hear I come!" But I just realized how much undead will slow down combat, even if I animate dead with the maximum number of hit die I can control, I can still control 4 or 5 undead minions, and It only gets worse at higher levels. So the first thing I thought of was to create a spell without the 20HD limit on undead. Then I realized that really wouldn't work, given the small amount of enemies with that much HD flying around, it really isn't a fix, at least not all on its own. So I thought of something else to work in conjunction with the idea from above, or all on its own. A kind of "enchantment" system. It works kind of like how armor or weapon enchantments work, you have your basic enhancement bonus like the +1 from a +1 flaming longsword. In the system I propose this enhancement bonus is like the undeads HD, you need to have HD before you can add any of the special abilities. The special abilities don't count towards that 20HD limit on undead, its essentially the "+5" enhancement bonus that you can't go above, unless you decide to remove the limit like I suggested could be done earlier. However, what you can do is add some of these, the Hit Die Adjustment is what you remove from your "pool" of HD of undead that you have left to animate, for instance, if you are an 10th level caster and you animate an undead with 20HD, you have 20HD left in your "pool" of HD you could animate, because a 10th level caster can animate up to 40HD worth of undead. If you wanted to add the abilities "Fiery Undead" and "Nimble Undead" to the undead you just created, you would have a 20HD undead, and 18HD left in your "pool" Note: The first nine of these abilities was augmented from Libris Mortis. I'm not sure if this is a violation of the CoC or not because I changed them a bit and this is a very small part of that book (From what I understand, less than 1% is OK) Besides, if your using undead this much, you should have already gone out and bought the book :D Fiery Undead A fiery undead burns with unquenchable fl ame. Variants of the fi ery undead include the lightning undead (deals electricity damage, immunity to electricity) and the frost undead (deals cold damage, immunity to cold). Attack: A fi ery undead’s natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of fi re damage. Special Qualities: Fiery undead have immunity to fi re, but do not have immunity to cold. CR Adjustment: +1/2 HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1 HD Nimble Undead A nimble undead can pursue characters across unsteady terrain, rock walls, narrow ledges, and the like. Initiative: A nimble undead’s initiative modifi er increases by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity. Speed: A nimble undead has a climb speed equal to its base land speed. Armor Class: A nimble undead’s Armor Class and touch AC increase by 2 thanks to its improved Dexterity. Abilities: A nimble undead gains an additional +4 bonus to Dexterity. CR Adjustment: +1/2. HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1 HD Soldier Undead The soldier undead works best in groups, and often originates from mass battlefi eld graves. Special Attacks: Cooperation (Ex): A soldier undead gains a +1 circumstance bonus to its attack rolls and Armor Class for each other soldier undead that is adjacent to it. If a soldier undead fl anks an opponent, it gains an additional +1 circumstance bonus on attacks against that opponent. Feats: If a soldier undead wields a weapon, it has Weapon Focus in that weapon as a bonus feat. The soldier undead also gains Combat Refl exes as a bonus feat. CR Adjustment: +1. HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD Vicious Undead Vicious undead seem to take mindless pleasure in disemboweling their victims with their devastating claw attacks. Zombies gain a claw attack that does damage equal to that of a skeleton. Attack: A vicious undead’s claw attacks deal damage as if it were a skeleton one size category larger than normal (if the creature is already Colossal, the claw attack deals 3d8 points of damage). Special Attacks: Rend (Ex): If a vicious undead hits with at least two claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the fl esh. This attack automatically deals extra damage equal to twice the normal damage of a claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the vicious undead’s Strength bonus. Feats: Vicious undead gain Improved Critical (claw) as a bonus feat. CR Adjustment: +1. HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD Bloodthirsty Undead The bloodthirsty undead doesn’t just want to destroy you, it wants to crack open your skull and feast on the goo inside. Attack: A bloodthirsty undead gains a bite attack that deals the same damage as its slam or claw attack (or its normal bite damage, whichever is more). (Bloodthirsty undead also have a slam or claw attack as normal, but most don’t use it.) Special Attacks: Blood Drain (Ex): If the bloodthirsty undead scores a critical hit with its bite against a living creature, that creature takes 1 point of Constitution damage. Feats: Bloodthirsty zombies gain Improved Critical (bite) as a bonus feat. CR Adjustment: +1. HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD Diseased Undead What better carrier for a horrible disease than a rotting corpse? Special Attacks: Disease (Ex): Any successful melee attack by a diseased undead exposes the target to a disease (fi lth fever). Any creature making a successful unarmed or natural attack against a diseased undead is similarly exposed (a character who grapples with a diseased zombie gets a –4 penalty on the save made to resist infection). CR Adjustment: +1/2. HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD This ones for Zombies only Fast Zombie Slow zombies are funny. They’re easy to escape on foot and can’t run at all. After an encounter with fast zombies, the characters won’t be laughing. Speed: Add 30 feet to base land speed, up to a maximum of twice the zombie’s normal base land speed. Fast zombies can run normally. Armor Class: The fast zombie gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC. Special Qualities: The fast zombie is not restricted to taking single actions only. However, it still cannot attack more than once per round. CR Adjustment: +1/2 HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2HD Hunting Undead It’s pretty easy to hide from a normal undead, but hunter undead can follow and fi nd enemies with the power of scent. Special Qualities: Hunter undead have the scent ability. Feats: Hunter undead gain Track as a bonus feat. Saves: The hunter undead’s Will save bonus increases by 2 thanks to its improved Wisdom score. Abilities: Hunter undead have a Wisdom of 14. Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6. Includes a +4 racial bonus. CR Adjustment: +1/2 Unkillable Undead The undead in the Monster Manual are tough, but an unkillable zombie is nigh-unstoppable. Hit Points: An unkillable undead gains 1 hp per HD (thanks to the Improved Toughness feat; see below). Special Qualities: An unkillable undead gains fast healing 5. Feats: An unkillable undead gains Improved Toughness (see page 27) as a bonus feat. CR Adjustment: +1 HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +2 HD Supernatural Ability Retainers These undead hang on to the amazing supernatural abilities it had in life. (Su): These undead do not get their supernatural abilities stripped away when the zombie or skeleton template is applied CR Adjustment: ??? HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ??? Spell-like Ability Retainers These undead firmly grip the amazing magical power they once used to wield in life. (Sp): These undead do not get their spell-like abilities stripped away when the zombie or skeleton template is applied. CR Adjustment: ??? HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ??? Extraordinary Ability Retainers These undead manage to still use their extraordinary abilities, even in their now dessicating forms. (Ex): These undead do not get their extraordinary abilities stripped away when the skeleton or zombie template is applied. CR Adjustment: ??? HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: ??? The Toughened These undead have bodies composed of tougher stuff than the rest of their ilk. Natural Armor: A toughened undead gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC for every additional hit die you pour into it (see below) CR Adjustment: +1/3 Each additional Hit Die HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +1*Each additional point of natural armor The Flyers These undead have negative energy that sprouts from their backs, producing a crude visage of wings. Flight (Su): These undead gain a fly speed equal to double their land speed with good maneuverability. CR Adjustment: +2 HIT DIE ADJUSTMENT: +4 HD The Disguised These undead appear as though they did in life. (Ex) Death has not touched these undead in the slightest, each of them appears as though they did in life, and this is no illusion. These undead do not rot, but they do always seem to carry a vacant stare. Cr Adjustment: ??? Hit Die Adjustment: +1 HD I was thinking about making the HD adjustment for the Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like ability retainers equal to the undeads current HD, what do you guys think. Looking for reviews, so please, post what you think of this idea.
katarl 12-24-06, 08:42 AM	You could try bringing less than your maximum with you. I play a 14th level dread necromancer with undead leadership, and he usually only brings Big Blue (my zombie evolved fiendish augmented gray render) and maybe a few ghasts. Also, you could try simplifying the attack process to quicken things up. I like your ideas a lot, though. Putting extra hd on top has been done before, (in Dragon), but was badly balanced, this is much better. A problem with balance in this is that it is extremely good for high hd creatures, especially unkillable, but almost useless for lower hd creatures like skeletons, but i'm sure players will only bulk up their best creatures anyway. A few criticisms and points: You left out hunting undeads hd; Toughened undead is extremely weak, perhaps add an extra 2 hp per hd you add, or something similar? Disguised undead is usually handled by gentle repose made permanent, or my own system of making corpses that used to have tomb tainted soul look alive, but it wouldn't have a cr adjustment. Supernatural and Spell-like ability retainers would be easily broken, imagine animating a marilith skeleton, or an efreet! Theres no real way of determining whats too powerful. How exactly do necromancers add these enhancements? Do they require a feat, or expend extra components?
KirkBb 12-24-06, 08:39 PM	Ah, sorry I forgot about the Hunting undead thing, its +1Hd. A few things. Don't you wind up feeling a little cheated out of alot of extra power when you bring only one undead minion with you though? I don't want to lose out on my own class abilities (one of the Dread Necro's biggest selling points are the bonus he gets to controlling undead and the undead he controls) but I don't want to make the game un-fun for other players. What would you suggest for speeding up the attack process? And I did kind of figure the toughened one was too weak, but figured it was one alot of people would spam to make it so they had only a few very hard to hit undead on them at a time. I had already come to the conclusion that the retainer ones would be very hard to balance but thats why I put them up here, so someone would critize them so maybe there would be someway to fix and balance them. Thanks for the review, hope others show some interest.
Echo_that_Pains 12-24-06, 09:03 PM	Just a few more thoughts for you. One idea is using Undead Commander (IIRC) from Spell Comp. which allows one intellegent undead to be able to give orders to your other undead for 24 hours. This could possibly speed up the RPing side of things. Just tell your DM what you command the undead to do and when the game reaches that point just assume that they show up.*** The whole attack process is going to be tedious for the most part if you use followers end of story. Unless you do an "average" damage per undead that you create with your DM so you just roll their attack and apply the set damage. Just an idea, but even if you did this the rolling would still slow down combat somewhat. I do like your HD pool idea. I have never thought of doing something like that and will have to discuss something like that with my DM for my DN. As already said it would really need to be balanced completely probably through playtesting since there are limitless ways to break something. Good start - it will be very interesting to see what else we can develop from this idea. *** Advice originally taken from Katarl from a past PM. If there is ever an undead player question/PEACH, he is the one to go to!
KirkBb 12-26-06, 10:17 AM	Thanks for the praise, I'll try running a bunch of those ideas by my DM.
katarl 12-26-06, 02:49 PM	Another thing to add, whats the limit you can enhance the undead? I'd suggest +50%, or maybe related to a key ability modifier? Also, what did you figure a necromancer would have to do or take to make these changes? What would you suggest for speeding up the attack process? Put all your most important details (current/max hp, ac, atk and damage) of your minions on one sheet, that way you can quickly make changes without having to look anything up, i've found it absolutely necessary to write up stats for every minion so as to not annoy the other players constantly looking up in the monster manual. Echo that pains idea of taking average damage is a very good idea with large numbers of undead. Advice originally taken from Katarl from a past PM. If there is ever an undead player question/PEACH, he is the one to go to! :D