Post/Author/DateTime	Post
11d7 12-31-04, 04:21 PM	In 3.5 the Planar Ally spell it says: A task taking up 1 minute per caster level requires payment 100 GP per HD of the creature to be called. For a task taking up to 1 hour per caster level requires a payment of 500 GP per HD and for a task taking up to one day per caster level it costs 1000 GP per HD. This is way to exspensive to be useful in all but the most most most specific and specialized situations. In 3.5 the Animate Dead spell says: Skeletons and Zombies cost 25 GP woth of Black Onyx Gems per HD of undead to be created. Worth it for creating things like Skeleton Ogres and other large creatures but not for creating humanoids for perpose of an army or even a Nercomancers or Evil Clerics minions. This is becuase the level required to make them as well as limited number that can be controled and the ability to turn/rebuke undead making them very vulnerable. You can Hire 20 Level 1 Merc warriors for 4 GP per day In addition you can hire 10 level 1 Mounted Merc warriors for 4 GP per day In addition you can hire 5 Level 3 Merc Warriors for 4.5 GP per day And to finish it off you can hire 1 Level 6 Merc Warrior for 1.8 GP per day This is far more effective than creating undead or summoning Planar Allies in most situations and has no level restrictions. Its not like you have to pay to feed the Mercs becuase when hiring on this level its assumed to be a Merc company so they have there own equipment (like always) but wagons and horses and such. If your in town and going to travel out to an ememy stronghold or into the wilderness for say 2 weeks with the Lesser Planar Ally spell to call a 6 HD Outsider to help you it will cost 6000 GP per day and it will only be able to stay with you until a number of days per caster level however it will only cost you 14.3 GP per day to bring these Mercs and they can stay with you for sometime after this mission as well, its also more effective than creating undead if you plan on entering building becuase that only gets worth it once you start creating large Ogre, Dire Wolf and other such undead and they cant fit into most buildings like towers but in some caste they will be worth it, but still would you rather have 500 level 1 warriors or 1 4HD Ogre Skeleton? I know it would be rather hard to find 100 level 1 warriors all for hire in one place short of a metroplace but even say 10 of them is far more effective. If such spells are going to be more useful than just hiring what you need then they have to be more powerful, less costly and be at lower levels.
MystErikEry 12-31-04, 04:28 PM	You can't hire people if you're out in the middle of nowhere, nor can you when there aren't many people in supply. You could possibly hire a few mercenaries, but you wouldn't be able to get as much as you might need. In addition, the planar allies can do more things than any hired mercenary can. No? Plus, they follow your commands. Mercenaries don't have to, and they might turn on you if your opponent decides to pay them more.
11d7 12-31-04, 04:44 PM	In my experince playing D&D I have not been playing advantures geared towards wilderness exploration or long deration treks into the unknown so needing to calling something up becuase your in the middle of nowhere has never been a problem for me. Most of the main story arcs I have played have been artifact gathering or cult taking out and we always stocked up on extra supplies and hirelings before leaveing larger settalments. You cant say Waterdeep doesnt have 10 level 3 mercenary warriors and a level 5 Wizard and a level 5 Cleric we can hire before leaving town are you? I would rather forfit my share of treasure and hire Cleric of Tyr of equal level to go with us on a mission that we would fight evil on. On the same note I would rather Hire 10 Lv. 1 Warrior Archers and Longspear and have a few less Gold when going to deal with a goblin nest. PS: The abilites that Outsiders have is why i said "to a lesser degree Planar Ally" and in specialized situations but its still way to costly in my opionion.
Steelwill 12-31-04, 05:13 PM	My opinion: I believe Planar Ally is made so costly so that player's aren't likely to have Balor servants or other major outsiders. This spell is optimally used for a quick service such as combat or a spell like ability usage, than for anything long term. But if you want such a contract, you are gonna have to pay for it. As for skeletons and zombies, the really good ones are going to be pricy, and the not so many HD ones are still pretty good depending on what you are fighting, since they have DR. If you were going into that goblin nest, and the gobs are armed primarily with spears and daggers or something, skeletons will really give them fits. Or predominantly with clubs, flails, and arrows, then the zombies will be a problem. I don't know if they will be offesively super, but they can provide defense, flanking, and distraction. So in certain circumstances yes, I agree these spells might seem useless, but the same can be said of all spells given the circumstances, as well as the reverse; In some instances certain spells are unbelievably powerful. My 2 cents.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-31-04, 05:20 PM	Animate Dead is better than hiring mercenaries for the following funfun reasons: 1- Undead last forever. Mercenaries are paid by the day. 2- Undead need no provisioning, ever. So you can stick some zombies at the bottom of a mineshaft, go "mine all the gold you can", seal the shaft up, and come back in 6 months, and the zombies are still mining away. Mercenaries would have starved. 3- Undead are mindless and obey all commands. Mercenaries would object to "Keep the dragon busy while I steal some of his treasure and Word of Recal home". Probably object quite fatally. 4- Undead don't spread the word to other mercenaries after you implement plan 3 for the 5th time. 5- Undead make more undead faster than mercenaries make more mercenaries.
11d7 12-31-04, 05:32 PM	"1- Undead last forever. Mercenaries are paid by the day." I would not pay a merc out of my pocket everyday, part in advance, most when finished. Undead dont last forever when Good Aligned Clerics will always be bugging you and you cant bring them into town. "2- Undead need no provisioning, ever. So you can stick some zombies at the bottom of a mineshaft, go "mine all the gold you can", seal the shaft up, and come back in 6 months, and the zombies are still mining away. Mercenaries would have starved." Yes if they are Intellegent undead but I'm not talking about Create Undead, I'm talking about Animate Dead, Zombies and Skeletons cant mine. "3- Undead are mindless and obey all commands. Mercenaries would object to "Keep the dragon busy while I steal some of his treasure and Word of Recal home". Probably object quite fatally." The mindless one arn't usualy as good and the Intellegent ones, the ones that are however will be just as likly to be "fatally obgective". "4- Undead don't spread the word to other mercenaries after you implement plan 3 for the 5th time." This is one of there good points "5- Undead make more undead faster than mercenaries make more mercenaries." This is another good point but still, every good aligned and most nutreal church in the world will be after you if you have an army of Wrights.
was_fired 12-31-04, 06:49 PM	Undead make really nice horses. You just wait until it is fullgrown kill it and raise it as a skeleton. You now have a mount which never needs rest or food.
11d7 12-31-04, 06:53 PM	Thats a good trick I've seen people use before, DMs doing like it though cause you can have it run forever as well.
Shard of Suzail 12-31-04, 07:27 PM	I once used a literal skeleton crew after we had our crew killed by pirates and were drifting at sea. The tireless nature of undead is a real boon. Larger zombies can be useful. I made a zombie wyvern to push some rafts back and forth so as to get us across a tricky flowing river. Mercenaries are all very well, but when you are miles from anywhere or trecking through the deserts of kalimshan, then undead are the way to go. After paying out 3000 gold and doing a great deal of in game research, my gm let me take on some spells from the d20 Diablo D and D supplements. This means that I can summon a selection of more useful skeletons, with varying immunities and resistances, inclusive of skeletal magi who have ranged touch attacks (though at no attack bonus). I particularly enjoy the fear factor of burning dead, who are somewhat like undead fire elementals. When we turn up with a few of those following along, the local villains know we mean business. The mining idea is a strange one and i dont feel it would work, since undead need too much supervision to be left unnatended. A much more practical use is to leave them standing over the party loot chest while the group goes away on business. I managed to freak out a few players, even, when i parked a skeleton on our loot pile with the orders "If anyone comes near you, kill them". My skels weigh in at 6 hit dice each, so the loot pile was undisturbed that night, meaning we could examine the days finds the next morning, without thieving pc`s having nabbed the good stuff as we slept. Planar ally lesser i`m not keen on. The greater one is a better deal, really. I`m toying with getting the thaumaturgist Prc and like the idea of getting a planar cohort. When push comes to shove, though it may cost xp, sometimes you really need a big fire resistant ally to wade on into the situation and dispense justice. At high levels, the loot rewards should compensate you well enough.
Nanashi 01-01-05, 07:49 AM	Oh ho ho! Mercenaries are more likely to renegotiate or refuse a contract, so beware of them! If you wish to use planar allies, call them for tasks that best reflect your deity's nature and you are likely to get a discount, maybe even complimentary service. Unless your DM is very stingy with discretion, there are times the spell is very good indeed.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-01-05, 08:23 AM	I would not pay a merc out of my pocket everyday, part in advance, most when finished. Undead dont last forever when Good Aligned Clerics will always be bugging you and you cant bring them into town. The fact you're contemplating using undead for various labour purposes means you're already willing to kill people who get in your path. Animating the dead is already an evil act. The point I was trying to make is that undead can serve you forever. Not just one day, or one week, or one job, but 1, 10, or 100 years. You can't buy loyalty like that.
Shard of Suzail 01-01-05, 08:40 AM	It is true that undead rarely last that long. I`m none too concerned about good aligned clerics, its usually just basic combat that sees them getting smashed to bits. We do have to be careful with our exalted monk, who has some sort of anti undead aura that he can use, but we came to a compromise with regards to that and exist quite harmoniously now. As a neutral cleric, i have to be careful how i use my undead and long term service is one of the trade offs i had to make. Thus, i tend to destroy my undead after they have served whatever the purpose of the day was. It's expensive, so i only make them when necessary. The zombie wyvern above, for instance, was destroyed after he pushed our rafts across the river. Considering that my god, Chronepsis, was his god of death, it was quite appropriate that he helped us out in this way and it probably did him a lot of good in karmic terms. These days though i do tend to use summoned creatures a lot more. No cost, much more powerful and with a host of special powers. Skellies are good for the long haul scenarios, but you just cant beat a hound archon as a close combat chunk of divine intervention for five or so rounds. It's a shame that so few classes let you keep the turning and rebuking advancment. While i can summon mummies and larger undead soon, i`ll just not be able to control them. Still, i plan to be flying around on a dragon cohort in a level or two, so it`s not that much of an inconvenience.
Bloodtide_the_Red 01-02-05, 02:51 PM	.............If your in town and going to travel out to an ememy stronghold or into the wilderness for say 2 weeks with the Lesser Planar Ally spell to call a 6 HD Outsider to help you it will cost 6000 GP per day and it will only be able to stay with you until a number of days per caster level ................... ---Or you could just summon him up right outside the castle. He can do something simple, but helpful, like open the main gates..taking a whole 10 minutes and 600GP. If you realy need too, a couple hours for 3000Gp is not that bad. Animate Dead just makes arrow and axe stoppers. That's all skeketons and zombies can realy do....though there are tricks to bost them a bit. It's a weak low level spell, remember. BT
Jaimas 01-02-05, 04:20 PM	The animated dead make superior soldiers. They never lack numbers in a time of war, they never disobey orders, they never surrender, and keep fighting even when in the process of being dismembered. Try that with a Mercenary and they'll be rambling about Health Plans or hazard pay faster than Blainetog hordes Prestidigitation scrolls. The undead are free (aside from the casting cost, and this can be circumvented by use of PrCs, or Ignore Components at Epic level). They need no food or drink, need neither sleep nor air, nor weapons, nor rest, and in the hands of an experienced necromancer, make superior fighters. On the other hand, the Mercs are capable of tactics, as well as using missile weapons and such. So there's some advantage in using Mercenaries. Most will flee the second combat turns against them - and let's be fair, the problem with people whose loyalties can be bought is that someone with more money could make things problematic. As for the Planar Ally, Yes, it's much more expensive than a hireling. However, you're getting a powerful ally in the form of a fiend or celestials (or other, for our Pseudonatural friends!), which is guaranteed to have much better stats and abilities than a mundane PP-a-dozen soldier. Plus, a fireball or - hell, even a flame sphere - isn't going to make mincemeat of the planar ally. I'd long to see the Mercs make the same boast. Monstrous Mercs, and Veterans, of course, are better - but you get what you pay for in the case of hiring directly. http://forums.hisrighteousmod.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/cool2.gif
chonjurer 01-05-05, 06:45 PM	Undead: - never disobey commands unless some other rebuking cleric steals them from you (which can be likened to someone paying off your mecenaries ;), although it is less likely) - need no upkeep, and are eternally vigilant - are great for fighting in a Cloudkill, poison gas traps, underwater, in a vacuum, etc. by forcing the enemy at a great disadvantage. although the HD vs CR advancement for ud does make them expensive - are perpetual motion machines. Stick them on a treadmill and you have an exhaustless source of energy (Exxon - beware). 25 gp for eternal energy isn't a bad deal, now is it? Planar Allies: - vary in usefullness depending on the DM. If you have a crackpot DM who takes pleasure in making PCs lives miserable, then avoid the spell. - can have any ability listed in the MM, including the abillity to teleport all your gold treasure from the dragon horde/party members across the world in about a minute - are NOT for emergency combat use - that is what summon monster is for (plus the casting time makes it useless in most combats). You plan ahead of time what you need them for and they should only be needed for a short time. Any extended usage is probably a quest for your party instead of a job for a planar ally. - allow you access to almost any special ability in the book at the drop of a hat. You don't need to lug a 20th level wizard with you everywhere and pay him for the whole trip. Just call the appropriate creature when you need it and pay it once.
cwslyclgh 01-05-05, 07:42 PM	Zombies and Skeletons cant mine. I would dissagree with this to an extent... skeletons and zombies most assurdly CAN mine... whether or not they can do so effectivly with out supervison is another story entirly.
mercurial67 01-05-05, 08:11 PM	You can Hire 20 Level 1 Merc warriors for 4 GP per day In addition you can hire 10 level 1 Mounted Merc warriors for 4 GP per day In addition you can hire 5 Level 3 Merc Warriors for 4.5 GP per day And to finish it off you can hire 1 Level 6 Merc Warrior for 1.8 GP per day This is far more effective than creating undead or summoning Planar Allies in most situations and has no level restrictions. Its not like you have to pay to feed the Mercs becuase when hiring on this level its assumed to be a Merc company so they have there own equipment (like always) but wagons and horses and such.This is not the case, you ALWAYS have to pay to feed & equip mercs you hire. If they are part of a merc company & come with their own equipment, you have to pay them more because they already have their own equipment. You also either have to feed them or you have to pay them MORE because they are providing the food. I don't have the books with me, but I do remember something about either having to buy their equipment (which they get to keep) or you pay them an additional amount on a pro-rated basis (yearly I think) for equipment maintanence. So your 2sp/day merc who comes with a longsword, chain mail, and large wooden shiled suddenly costs 14gp retainer to hire for a month (equipment mantanence) plus 3sp/day for common food (you could scrimp and give them poor food, but their morale would suffer) for a total cost to hire for a month of 29gp each.
Bonzai 01-06-05, 01:43 AM	Story Time My True Necromancer and party was trapped in a town that was being under siege by a rather large orcish hord. Being Neutral and evil characters, we offered to hire ourselves out as mercenaries. Desprate, the town council accepted. While the militia was able to hold off the hord during the day, some of the other party members were busy securing corpses. During the night, and while the militia got to rest, my Necromancer would lead night time raids with as many re-animated orcs as possible (with the town supplying the onyx). Now this had several positive effects. First, the militia was secure and well rested during the night as the orcs were too busy to launch a night attack. Second, there was a severe moral issue, as they were forced to fight and kill their comrads, the whole time seeing what will happen when to them if they too died. Third, since they were constantly attacked at night, they never got a chance to rest, and were fatigued the next day. Lastly, I happened to have the feat that makes them explode upon death, killing or badly wounding any orc nearby, and healing other skeletons in the area as well. This proved to be very effective. The horde was broken with no small thanks to my True Necromancer. Mercenaries would have been less effective. Skeletons/zombies have their uses
Centauri 01-06-05, 12:29 PM	You can make a scroll, staff, or wand that can cast Animate Dead at any time, whereas you can't always hire mercenaries. I'm not clear whether or not you can use the onyx in the item creation, or if you have to place a gem in the corpse's mouth when you use the item. If you're trying to get through a heavily guarded area, it might be easier to create your attack force once you get past the guards, rather than try to sneak past with a bunch of mercenaries. And finally, there's good reason to use mercenaries AND have access to Animate Dead. Simply give each mercenary an onyx pendant when they join up, and when they kick off you can reanimate them!
green_yawgmoth 01-06-05, 01:45 PM	"1- Undead last forever. Mercenaries are paid by the day." I would not pay a merc out of my pocket everyday, part in advance, most when finished. Undead dont last forever when Good Aligned Clerics will always be bugging you and you cant bring them into town.If you have good aligned clerics "always bugging you", then why not take a few feats from LM? Your skeletons will have turn resistance, more str/hp, and explode if/when they die, or other good things. A good cleric will have to have brass ones to go against 20 skeletons that will explode when they die and count as having +4 HD. "2- Undead need no provisioning, ever. So you can stick some zombies at the bottom of a mineshaft, go "mine all the gold you can", seal the shaft up, and come back in 6 months, and the zombies are still mining away. Mercenaries would have starved." Yes if they are Intellegent undead but I'm not talking about Create Undead, I'm talking about Animate Dead, Zombies and Skeletons cant mine.Of course they can. You can give them simple orders not longer than a couple sentences. I think holding up a gold coin and saying "dig out all of this metal from this area" is more than adaquate. "3- Undead are mindless and obey all commands. Mercenaries would object to "Keep the dragon busy while I steal some of his treasure and Word of Recal home". Probably object quite fatally." The mindless one arn't usualy as good and the Intellegent ones, the ones that are however will be just as likly to be "fatally obgective".The mindless ones are just as good, if not better, than your first level thugs, and are 100% obedient. "5- Undead make more undead faster than mercenaries make more mercenaries." This is another good point but still, every good aligned and most nutreal church in the world will be after you if you have an army of Wrights.That's just dumb. You might have one church or two after you if you stay in one spot for a very long time and don't hide/disguise them in any way, but if "every church in the world" came after every necromancer who had a few undead in thier control, there wouldn't be any necromancy school. They also wouldn't have any time to do what their deity wants them to do as clerics, which almost never includes "destroy all undead and anyone who controls even one of them." Pelor and Heironeous wouldn't mind their churches going after someone with a ginormous army if they had a similar/greater amount of power, but that's about it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Bane 01-06-05, 03:41 PM	The best thing to do is become an undead yourself, probably a Lich. Then you can do fun things like marching your army of zombies and skeletons across the desert with no worries about food or water. Also, you can give rings to every single one of your creations. One ring is the phylactery, a couple rings are beneficial to the wearer, and the rest of the rings are these (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3699270&postcount=5) . Wait till the army that destroys you starts looting the battlefield, and all you need are some control undead spells to deal with the resultant ghouls.