Animate Dead can it be dispelled ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead can it be dispelled ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JustSayNo
11-12-06, 12:05 AM Animate Dead can it be dispelled ? I was just looking at it and there is nothing that calls it to either you can or cannt dispell Animate Dead . So what do you think can it and if so it would be funny to watch a Necromancer watch all his undead drop .
I am just putting a idea out there for this .
runestar
11-12-06, 12:16 AM It has a duration of instantaneous, so no, it cannot be dispelled.:)
Kresalak
11-12-06, 12:19 AM Duration is instantaneous, so no.
JustSayNo
11-12-06, 01:15 AM so with that in mind you should always have a spell that is a equal and opposite power . A spell that might be called Un-animate Dead would be a 3rd level spell ? A touch and you go back to being undead maybe a Fort save .
Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

where does it say it cannt be dispelled ?
kab
11-12-06, 01:28 AM Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm
Underhill
11-12-06, 02:17 AM so with that in mind you should always have a spell that is a equal and opposite power . A spell that might be called Un-animate Dead would be a 3rd level spell ? A touch and you go back to being undead maybe a Fort save .

Undeath to Death is a level 6 Sor/Wiz/Clr. It un-animates dead rather nicely.

Of course, so will a fireball. It's third level.....
TheDarkLord
11-12-06, 03:12 AM Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

It's amazing you can't create magical items using instantaneous magic.
Thiez
11-12-06, 10:26 AM No it isn't. If the item is permanently magical, the magic from the spell is (quite obviously) permanent instead of instantaneous.
TheDarkLord
11-12-06, 07:11 PM No it isn't. If the item is permanently magical, the magic from the spell is (quite obviously) permanent instead of instantaneous.

Just like an Animated skeleton has a permenant magical effect around it keeping it moving huh?
Thiez
11-12-06, 07:30 PM Obviously not. They keep moving inside an Antimagic Field, so I declare your reply null and void. :P
TheDarkLord
11-12-06, 09:57 PM Hmm..

No need to get all high and mighty, I do know the rules just as well as you
.
You are arguing RAW, i am not. I was making the statement from a point of vew that a "permanent" magical effect is what it says it is "permanent" (not I am not using this word in the game sense of the word Permanent.

I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work?

Ex. The Evil cleric casts an AMF, 7 skeletons are sitting in the spells radius. They are obviously infused with some kind of magic so why are they still standing. Meanwhile I infuse my fighters sword with say, a flaming ability, it is sheathed in fire all the time, yet as soon as he steps into an AMF his sword goes out.

I have never liked this seperation of Permanent magical effects whatsoever, I find it retarded and contridictary. If one magical effect is countered then all should be, otherwise the spell should be called Selective AMF not just AMF.

So.. :P to you :D
Navigator
11-12-06, 11:47 PM I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work?

If what you're saying is true, then every single undead creature in the world can be undone with a dispel magic effect. I mean, what keeps vampires alive? If you say that negative energy is just another name for "magic", then vampires can be dispelled into a pile of dust.

Luckily, this is wrong.

By casting animate dead, you are infusing them with negative energy, which is what makes them go. After you have summoned the necessary amount of negative energy, you end your spell effect and they're undead.

Saying negative energy is just "magic", then so is positive energy, fire, electricity, acid, etc. Fire elementals are powered by the plane of fire, just as much as undead are powered by the plane of negative energy. So, why can't we dispel fire elementals? Hell, technically, living creatures are powered by positive energy.

Another analogy is fabricate. By your logic, you'd be able to dispel something that was crafted with fabricate.

There is a fine line between instantaneous and permanent. For example, why can't you dispel someone's healed HP? Because once it's done, it's done. Just because your wounds were healed with magic, doesn't mean that they can become "unhealed" with a dispel magic.
TheDarkLord
11-13-06, 12:20 AM If what you're saying is true, then every single undead creature in the world can be undone with a dispel magic effect. I mean, what keeps vampires alive? If you say that negative energy is just another name for "magic", then vampires can be dispelled into a pile of dust.

Luckily, this is wrong

By casting animate dead, you are infusing them with negative energy, which is what makes them go. After you have summoned the necessary amount of negative energy, you end your spell effect and they're undead.

RAW I agree, but I'm not arguing RAW. Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself?

Saying negative energy is just "magic", then so is positive energy, fire, electricity, acid, etc. Fire elementals are powered by the plane of fire, just as much as undead are powered by the plane of negative energy. So, why can't we dispel fire elementals? Hell, technically, living creatures are powered by positive energy.

The true elements of fire, water, electricity, sonic, and acid are naturally occurring elements outside the use of magic. But if they were infused into something say a flaming burst sword then I would argue that yes, somehow magic is chaining such elements into the weapon and could be subject to DM/AMF.

For the longest time though, I believe the use of fire, electricity, and sound to awe and inspire was considered magic

I just went through the core books and nowhere does it say we are composed of any kind of positive energy, any other book is pretty much houserules and advice so I will disagree and say with fair certainty that Life =/= positive energy.

Another analogy is fabricate. By your logic, you'd be able to dispel something that was crafted with fabricate.

At least I'm consistent when I say yes. If the effect was created by using magic, then it is a magical long lasting effect, even if it is a mundane piece of parchment.

There is a fine line between instantaneous and permanent. For example, why can't you dispel someone's healed HP? Because once it's done, it's done. Just because your wounds were healed with magic, doesn't mean that they can become "unhealed" with a dispel magic.

Very good.

I would argue that the magic speeds up the healing process that naturally occurs. The HP's you gain are ones you would already gain from resting and recuperating. While in this instance you couldn't dispel such a thing the positive energy does not remain in you the same was as Negative energy remains inside the undead and powers it.

As stated before, I am not arguing RAW, I'm arguing against a concept that I see as completely flawed. Instead of using negative energy as a source of undead power, why not use enslaved soul's and spirits to animate the bones. But then again that also has to be bound by magic or some form of energy.
Thiez
11-13-06, 05:23 AM Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D

Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic
Reinforcements
11-13-06, 11:12 AM Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D

Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic
Or lack thereof.
Navigator
11-13-06, 11:48 AM RAW I agree, but I'm not arguing RAW. Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself?

You would need a "dispel negative energy" spell, because magic isn't what holds undead together. Clerics have it. It's called "Turn Undead".

I'd reply more, but I'm running short on time.
CaoSlayer
11-13-06, 11:56 AM undeath works by conjuring an evil spirit from the negative energy plane to habit the corpse... that it is to give the body a new "brain".

Since the new "brain" isnt magic, cant be dispelled.
Sarig the Genie
11-13-06, 12:06 PM Hmm..

No need to get all high and mighty, I do know the rules just as well as you
.
You are arguing RAW, i am not. I was making the statement from a point of vew that a "permanent" magical effect is what it says it is "permanent" (not I am not using this word in the game sense of the word Permanent.

I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work?

Ex. The Evil cleric casts an AMF, 7 skeletons are sitting in the spells radius. They are obviously infused with some kind of magic so why are they still standing. Meanwhile I infuse my fighters sword with say, a flaming ability, it is sheathed in fire all the time, yet as soon as he steps into an AMF his sword goes out.

I have never liked this seperation of Permanent magical effects whatsoever, I find it retarded and contridictary. If one magical effect is countered then all should be, otherwise the spell should be called Selective AMF not just AMF.

So.. :P to you :D

In DnD all living beings are powered by positive energy, and you can't dispell them can you? Nor can you dispel a fire elementals fire? Or a water elementals wetness?

Nor an undeads 'life' force.

I see your point though, it's been up quite a few times on the boards.
green_yawgmoth
11-13-06, 04:52 PM Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D

Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic
Dispel that FoD that got cast on your buddy last round and he comes back to life, by DL's "logic". :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
runestar
11-13-06, 08:24 PM Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable?
Or for that matter, is the +5inherent stat bonus you get from a tome dispellable as well?;)

Now you see the floodgate being opened?:P
TheDarkLord
11-13-06, 08:44 PM Inherent bonus' can be Explained much the same way as I explained the Cure Light wounds.

I still See nothing in the Core rule books that says that Humans/Elves/Dwarves and whatever are powered by Positive Energy.

In my own PoV the Soul and body connection is a non-magical natural connection, think of it as an Extraordinary ability. True ressurection and ressurection only opens a path to a to a soul that chooses to enter back into the body. The healing that such a body recieves I attribute it the same way I attribute magic healing.

In all respects, if you are saying that Undead are not in their very essence and core a fantastical magical machination powered by a force that in it's very essence serves a magical purpose, I disagree, but I am entitled to such an opinion as are each of you.

In my own campains, I do not let undead enter the area of an AMF or the power that is holding the dark energy to a once lifeless body is severed. Just as Magic holds a summoned creature to the realm, I believe magic holds the negative energy to the bones/flesh of a once dead creature.
Navigator
11-15-06, 03:57 PM So, just out of curiosity, what would the scheme be to determine the DC to dispel undead?
Mirtek
11-15-06, 04:02 PM I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work?
No, the magic is only needed to call the animating force to the corpse. Once the force is there, the force stays without need for more magic.
Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself?
No, but the hole that allows the engery to trickle to the undead doesn't need the tool that caused it to stay open.

It's easier to create a hole in a barrel than it's to repair a hole in a barrel. It's a 3rd level spell to create the link between prime and negative energy plane, but a 6th level spell to sever it.
TheDarkLord
11-15-06, 07:07 PM So, just out of curiosity, what would the scheme be to determine the DC to dispel undead?

15+HD of the Undead as a CL check to dispel the forces holding the negative energy to the Dead creature should be fair enough.

It shouldn't be easy to dispel undead, I just think it should be possible.
green_yawgmoth
11-15-06, 07:34 PM 15+HD of the Undead as a CL check to dispel the forces holding the negative energy to the Dead creature should be fair enough.

It shouldn't be easy to dispel undead, I just think it should be possible.
Then by the same logic, so should True/Ressurection, as it does pretty much the same thing but with positive energy and minus control, and almost identically the same thing as Create (Greater) Undead. You're using a spell to give a corpse life. One does it with positive energy, one with negative.

And here's another quandry for you: How bout those "magical beasts"? Should they be dispellable too? I mean after all, they are by definition of their type magical; should dispel magic kill them?

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Kyuketsukiouji
11-15-06, 07:57 PM If I cast Dispel Magic on you, does every single healing spell you've ever received go away all at the same time?
TheDarkLord
11-15-06, 08:29 PM Then by the same logic, so should True/Ressurection, as it does pretty much the same thing but with positive energy and minus control, and almost identically the same thing as Create (Greater) Undead. You're using a spell to give a corpse life. One does it with positive energy, one with negative.

Obviously you didn't read one of my above posts. True ressurection merely opens a passage that allows a character to return if they want to. And I quote myself

In my own PoV the Soul and body connection is a non-magical natural connection, think of it as an Extraordinary ability. True ressurection and ressurection only opens a path to a to a soul that chooses to enter back into the body. The healing that such a body recieves I attribute it the same way I attribute magic healing.

And here's another quandry for you: How bout those "magical beasts"? Should they be dispellable too? I mean after all, they are by definition of their type magical; should dispel magic kill them?

A Magical beast while fantastic in nature in all respects is a creature with a soul. That soul in non-fantastical in nature. While dispel magic wouldn't kill the beast, it should suppress any and all magical effects about it for a few rounds. If it needs magical energy to survive then for those few rounds consider it dying.

If I cast Dispel Magic on you, does every single healing spell you've ever received go away all at the same time?

Read the above what I said about magical healing.

You don't have to agree with me, I believe my logic is sound. I have given reasonable explanations for my beliefs as such. I've explained magical healing, ressurection (which was easier than magical healing), and magical beasts.

In my view either make all "permanent" magical effects effected by AMF/DM spells or none of them.

And note, I'm not using the word permanent in a true game term sense.
EvilVegan
11-15-06, 08:30 PM In my campaigns living creatures are a balance of positive and negative energy. Undead are beings fueled by negative energy, in this way vampires and other leeching undead are balancing their life force by draining positive energy (in this case, as blood), which in turn creates newly imbalanced creatures (the reason people come back as undead). Positive energy damages them because they have lost their soul which is the part of the person that balances the opposing forces within them. Negative energy is very lingering and can power a creature much longer, even when entirely unbalanced, than positive energy. That's why liches and vampires can live forever, but their counterparts die out very quickly. I never named their counterparts, because they didn't really live long enough or communicate well enough to have a name.

Negative energy spells (inflict/harm/finger of death) overload the negative aspects of the body and cause damage, also they create undead-like symptoms (rot, festering, smelliness, etc in the location touched). Positive energy spells (cure/restoration) are tempered to restore damage (the spells are cast in such a way to encourage healing), but also create temporary blooms of bacteria, so wounds ooze and heal quickly as the body's immune system uses the positive energy to overcome the bacteria, even though the bacteria also received a boost from the energy, most of it was directed at the target and not the bacteria.

I also created a few creatures that were the opposite of undead. They were beings of short-lived positive energy (positive energy doesn't last very long, negative energy can be almost indefinite). They glowed brightly, bred, and died all within a very short time, like gnats, but bigger. Creatures that became overly "infested" with positive energy would become super powered (like undead) and could kill people to drain their negative energy, but due to the nature of positive energy they don't last more than a week or two at the most and eventually consume themselves in a very pretty burst of positive energy. But it was very uncommon for soulless beings to become positive energy undead.

Also raise dead and resurrection were not positive energy, but simply restored the soul to the body (bringing balance back), which better explains why the spell can cure undead.

Had a lot of balance issues (not mechanical ones, but flavor ones) in that campaign and no it wasn't oriental in flavor, despite heavy taoist influences on the cosmology.

But no, undead are not magical. They are powered by their connection to the negative energy plane in a nonmagical way (I'd say extraordinary). The animate spells simply restore semblance of life by opening a connection to the negative energy plane, much as your description of raise dead opens a portal for the soul. The same as non-summoned elementals are connected to their elements.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JustSayNo 11-12-06, 12:05 AM	Animate Dead can it be dispelled ? I was just looking at it and there is nothing that calls it to either you can or cannt dispell Animate Dead . So what do you think can it and if so it would be funny to watch a Necromancer watch all his undead drop . I am just putting a idea out there for this .
runestar 11-12-06, 12:16 AM	It has a duration of instantaneous, so no, it cannot be dispelled.:)
Kresalak 11-12-06, 12:19 AM	Duration is instantaneous, so no.
JustSayNo 11-12-06, 01:15 AM	so with that in mind you should always have a spell that is a equal and opposite power . A spell that might be called Un-animate Dead would be a 3rd level spell ? A touch and you go back to being undead maybe a Fort save . Instantaneous The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting. where does it say it cannt be dispelled ?
kab 11-12-06, 01:28 AM	Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm
Underhill 11-12-06, 02:17 AM	so with that in mind you should always have a spell that is a equal and opposite power . A spell that might be called Un-animate Dead would be a 3rd level spell ? A touch and you go back to being undead maybe a Fort save . Undeath to Death is a level 6 Sor/Wiz/Clr. It un-animates dead rather nicely. Of course, so will a fireball. It's third level.....
TheDarkLord 11-12-06, 03:12 AM	Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect. It's amazing you can't create magical items using instantaneous magic.
Thiez 11-12-06, 10:26 AM	No it isn't. If the item is permanently magical, the magic from the spell is (quite obviously) permanent instead of instantaneous.
TheDarkLord 11-12-06, 07:11 PM	No it isn't. If the item is permanently magical, the magic from the spell is (quite obviously) permanent instead of instantaneous. Just like an Animated skeleton has a permenant magical effect around it keeping it moving huh?
Thiez 11-12-06, 07:30 PM	Obviously not. They keep moving inside an Antimagic Field, so I declare your reply null and void. :P
TheDarkLord 11-12-06, 09:57 PM	Hmm.. No need to get all high and mighty, I do know the rules just as well as you . You are arguing RAW, i am not. I was making the statement from a point of vew that a "permanent" magical effect is what it says it is "permanent" (not I am not using this word in the game sense of the word Permanent. I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work? Ex. The Evil cleric casts an AMF, 7 skeletons are sitting in the spells radius. They are obviously infused with some kind of magic so why are they still standing. Meanwhile I infuse my fighters sword with say, a flaming ability, it is sheathed in fire all the time, yet as soon as he steps into an AMF his sword goes out. I have never liked this seperation of Permanent magical effects whatsoever, I find it retarded and contridictary. If one magical effect is countered then all should be, otherwise the spell should be called Selective AMF not just AMF. So.. :P to you :D
Navigator 11-12-06, 11:47 PM	I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work? If what you're saying is true, then every single undead creature in the world can be undone with a dispel magic effect. I mean, what keeps vampires alive? If you say that negative energy is just another name for "magic", then vampires can be dispelled into a pile of dust. Luckily, this is wrong. By casting animate dead, you are infusing them with negative energy, which is what makes them go. After you have summoned the necessary amount of negative energy, you end your spell effect and they're undead. Saying negative energy is just "magic", then so is positive energy, fire, electricity, acid, etc. Fire elementals are powered by the plane of fire, just as much as undead are powered by the plane of negative energy. So, why can't we dispel fire elementals? Hell, technically, living creatures are powered by positive energy. Another analogy is fabricate. By your logic, you'd be able to dispel something that was crafted with fabricate. There is a fine line between instantaneous and permanent. For example, why can't you dispel someone's healed HP? Because once it's done, it's done. Just because your wounds were healed with magic, doesn't mean that they can become "unhealed" with a dispel magic.
TheDarkLord 11-13-06, 12:20 AM	If what you're saying is true, then every single undead creature in the world can be undone with a dispel magic effect. I mean, what keeps vampires alive? If you say that negative energy is just another name for "magic", then vampires can be dispelled into a pile of dust. Luckily, this is wrong By casting animate dead, you are infusing them with negative energy, which is what makes them go. After you have summoned the necessary amount of negative energy, you end your spell effect and they're undead. RAW I agree, but I'm not arguing RAW. Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself? Saying negative energy is just "magic", then so is positive energy, fire, electricity, acid, etc. Fire elementals are powered by the plane of fire, just as much as undead are powered by the plane of negative energy. So, why can't we dispel fire elementals? Hell, technically, living creatures are powered by positive energy. The true elements of fire, water, electricity, sonic, and acid are naturally occurring elements outside the use of magic. But if they were infused into something say a flaming burst sword then I would argue that yes, somehow magic is chaining such elements into the weapon and could be subject to DM/AMF. For the longest time though, I believe the use of fire, electricity, and sound to awe and inspire was considered magic I just went through the core books and nowhere does it say we are composed of any kind of positive energy, any other book is pretty much houserules and advice so I will disagree and say with fair certainty that Life =/= positive energy. Another analogy is fabricate. By your logic, you'd be able to dispel something that was crafted with fabricate. At least I'm consistent when I say yes. If the effect was created by using magic, then it is a magical long lasting effect, even if it is a mundane piece of parchment. There is a fine line between instantaneous and permanent. For example, why can't you dispel someone's healed HP? Because once it's done, it's done. Just because your wounds were healed with magic, doesn't mean that they can become "unhealed" with a dispel magic. Very good. I would argue that the magic speeds up the healing process that naturally occurs. The HP's you gain are ones you would already gain from resting and recuperating. While in this instance you couldn't dispel such a thing the positive energy does not remain in you the same was as Negative energy remains inside the undead and powers it. As stated before, I am not arguing RAW, I'm arguing against a concept that I see as completely flawed. Instead of using negative energy as a source of undead power, why not use enslaved soul's and spirits to animate the bones. But then again that also has to be bound by magic or some form of energy.
Thiez 11-13-06, 05:23 AM	Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic
Reinforcements 11-13-06, 11:12 AM	Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic Or lack thereof.
Navigator 11-13-06, 11:48 AM	RAW I agree, but I'm not arguing RAW. Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself? You would need a "dispel negative energy" spell, because magic isn't what holds undead together. Clerics have it. It's called "Turn Undead". I'd reply more, but I'm running short on time.
CaoSlayer 11-13-06, 11:56 AM	undeath works by conjuring an evil spirit from the negative energy plane to habit the corpse... that it is to give the body a new "brain". Since the new "brain" isnt magic, cant be dispelled.
Sarig the Genie 11-13-06, 12:06 PM	Hmm.. No need to get all high and mighty, I do know the rules just as well as you . You are arguing RAW, i am not. I was making the statement from a point of vew that a "permanent" magical effect is what it says it is "permanent" (not I am not using this word in the game sense of the word Permanent. I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work? Ex. The Evil cleric casts an AMF, 7 skeletons are sitting in the spells radius. They are obviously infused with some kind of magic so why are they still standing. Meanwhile I infuse my fighters sword with say, a flaming ability, it is sheathed in fire all the time, yet as soon as he steps into an AMF his sword goes out. I have never liked this seperation of Permanent magical effects whatsoever, I find it retarded and contridictary. If one magical effect is countered then all should be, otherwise the spell should be called Selective AMF not just AMF. So.. :P to you :D In DnD all living beings are powered by positive energy, and you can't dispell them can you? Nor can you dispel a fire elementals fire? Or a water elementals wetness? Nor an undeads 'life' force. I see your point though, it's been up quite a few times on the boards.
green_yawgmoth 11-13-06, 04:52 PM	Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? :D Edit: Not by RAW, by TheDarkLord's logic Dispel that FoD that got cast on your buddy last round and he comes back to life, by DL's "logic". :D http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
runestar 11-13-06, 08:24 PM	Hehe, it just occured to me, is Ressurection / True Ressurection dispellable? Or for that matter, is the +5inherent stat bonus you get from a tome dispellable as well?;) Now you see the floodgate being opened?:P
TheDarkLord 11-13-06, 08:44 PM	Inherent bonus' can be Explained much the same way as I explained the Cure Light wounds. I still See nothing in the Core rule books that says that Humans/Elves/Dwarves and whatever are powered by Positive Energy. In my own PoV the Soul and body connection is a non-magical natural connection, think of it as an Extraordinary ability. True ressurection and ressurection only opens a path to a to a soul that chooses to enter back into the body. The healing that such a body recieves I attribute it the same way I attribute magic healing. In all respects, if you are saying that Undead are not in their very essence and core a fantastical magical machination powered by a force that in it's very essence serves a magical purpose, I disagree, but I am entitled to such an opinion as are each of you. In my own campains, I do not let undead enter the area of an AMF or the power that is holding the dark energy to a once lifeless body is severed. Just as Magic holds a summoned creature to the realm, I believe magic holds the negative energy to the bones/flesh of a once dead creature.
Navigator 11-15-06, 03:57 PM	So, just out of curiosity, what would the scheme be to determine the DC to dispel undead?
Mirtek 11-15-06, 04:02 PM	I animate a skeleton. The magic that animates him is still functioning inside the skeleton to keep it aliveand going, in actual game terms ALL undead have some sort of magic, whether or not you call it negative energy or arcane will, it's still magic. Why shouldn't DM/MDJ/AMF work? No, the magic is only needed to call the animating force to the corpse. Once the force is there, the force stays without need for more magic. Why can't you use dispel magic to send the negative energy back to the plane it came from per say, to dispel the chains of magic that are binding it to the undead creature, or is negative energy a sentient force that binds itself? No, but the hole that allows the engery to trickle to the undead doesn't need the tool that caused it to stay open. It's easier to create a hole in a barrel than it's to repair a hole in a barrel. It's a 3rd level spell to create the link between prime and negative energy plane, but a 6th level spell to sever it.
TheDarkLord 11-15-06, 07:07 PM	So, just out of curiosity, what would the scheme be to determine the DC to dispel undead? 15+HD of the Undead as a CL check to dispel the forces holding the negative energy to the Dead creature should be fair enough. It shouldn't be easy to dispel undead, I just think it should be possible.
green_yawgmoth 11-15-06, 07:34 PM	15+HD of the Undead as a CL check to dispel the forces holding the negative energy to the Dead creature should be fair enough. It shouldn't be easy to dispel undead, I just think it should be possible. Then by the same logic, so should True/Ressurection, as it does pretty much the same thing but with positive energy and minus control, and almost identically the same thing as Create (Greater) Undead. You're using a spell to give a corpse life. One does it with positive energy, one with negative. And here's another quandry for you: How bout those "magical beasts"? Should they be dispellable too? I mean after all, they are by definition of their type magical; should dispel magic kill them? http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Kyuketsukiouji 11-15-06, 07:57 PM	If I cast Dispel Magic on you, does every single healing spell you've ever received go away all at the same time?
TheDarkLord 11-15-06, 08:29 PM	Then by the same logic, so should True/Ressurection, as it does pretty much the same thing but with positive energy and minus control, and almost identically the same thing as Create (Greater) Undead. You're using a spell to give a corpse life. One does it with positive energy, one with negative. Obviously you didn't read one of my above posts. True ressurection merely opens a passage that allows a character to return if they want to. And I quote myself In my own PoV the Soul and body connection is a non-magical natural connection, think of it as an Extraordinary ability. True ressurection and ressurection only opens a path to a to a soul that chooses to enter back into the body. The healing that such a body recieves I attribute it the same way I attribute magic healing. And here's another quandry for you: How bout those "magical beasts"? Should they be dispellable too? I mean after all, they are by definition of their type magical; should dispel magic kill them? A Magical beast while fantastic in nature in all respects is a creature with a soul. That soul in non-fantastical in nature. While dispel magic wouldn't kill the beast, it should suppress any and all magical effects about it for a few rounds. If it needs magical energy to survive then for those few rounds consider it dying. If I cast Dispel Magic on you, does every single healing spell you've ever received go away all at the same time? Read the above what I said about magical healing. You don't have to agree with me, I believe my logic is sound. I have given reasonable explanations for my beliefs as such. I've explained magical healing, ressurection (which was easier than magical healing), and magical beasts. In my view either make all "permanent" magical effects effected by AMF/DM spells or none of them. And note, I'm not using the word permanent in a true game term sense.
EvilVegan 11-15-06, 08:30 PM	In my campaigns living creatures are a balance of positive and negative energy. Undead are beings fueled by negative energy, in this way vampires and other leeching undead are balancing their life force by draining positive energy (in this case, as blood), which in turn creates newly imbalanced creatures (the reason people come back as undead). Positive energy damages them because they have lost their soul which is the part of the person that balances the opposing forces within them. Negative energy is very lingering and can power a creature much longer, even when entirely unbalanced, than positive energy. That's why liches and vampires can live forever, but their counterparts die out very quickly. I never named their counterparts, because they didn't really live long enough or communicate well enough to have a name. Negative energy spells (inflict/harm/finger of death) overload the negative aspects of the body and cause damage, also they create undead-like symptoms (rot, festering, smelliness, etc in the location touched). Positive energy spells (cure/restoration) are tempered to restore damage (the spells are cast in such a way to encourage healing), but also create temporary blooms of bacteria, so wounds ooze and heal quickly as the body's immune system uses the positive energy to overcome the bacteria, even though the bacteria also received a boost from the energy, most of it was directed at the target and not the bacteria. I also created a few creatures that were the opposite of undead. They were beings of short-lived positive energy (positive energy doesn't last very long, negative energy can be almost indefinite). They glowed brightly, bred, and died all within a very short time, like gnats, but bigger. Creatures that became overly "infested" with positive energy would become super powered (like undead) and could kill people to drain their negative energy, but due to the nature of positive energy they don't last more than a week or two at the most and eventually consume themselves in a very pretty burst of positive energy. But it was very uncommon for soulless beings to become positive energy undead. Also raise dead and resurrection were not positive energy, but simply restored the soul to the body (bringing balance back), which better explains why the spell can cure undead. Had a lot of balance issues (not mechanical ones, but flavor ones) in that campaign and no it wasn't oriental in flavor, despite heavy taoist influences on the cosmology. But no, undead are not magical. They are powered by their connection to the negative energy plane in a nonmagical way (I'd say extraordinary). The animate spells simply restore semblance of life by opening a connection to the negative energy plane, much as your description of raise dead opens a portal for the soul. The same as non-summoned elementals are connected to their elements.