Post/Author/DateTime	Post
olodrin 05-31-07, 01:16 PM	First, the basic question: if an area Dispel Magic is cast on a group of undead, will it UN-animate them, assuming that Animate Dead is the highest level spell effect in place and that they fail their saves? Second, can Command Undead (spell) be momentarily nullified through rebuking? Third, is there ANY limitation on Command Undead? The use of a 2nd level spell by a 5th level character to completely control a CR8 T-Rex skeleton seems a little silly... Clearly, I have Necromancer in my party. Thanks, Olodrin
green_yawgmoth 05-31-07, 01:21 PM	In order: No, Yes, No. AD is an instantaneous spell; the magic does its thing, then is gone, leaving whatever it leaves (in this case, undead). It would be like trying to dispel the damage a fireball just did to you. As for control undead, the limitation is that it's a 2nd level spell, and thus has a painfully easy save to make. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Gentlemanic 05-31-07, 01:22 PM	No animate dead creates the undead. Once created no more magic lingers around them, how strange that may sound. They are creatures and thus can't be dispelled. Also, he must rebuke it to command it. He must make a pretty turning check to be able to effect a creature with that many hit die. Command undead seems to work on any undead that fails it's save.
olodrin 05-31-07, 02:05 PM	Thanks very much for the answers. Command Undead does have a pathetically low save, but unintelligent undead (such as skeletons) have NO save, and there is NO HD limit on the spell. This bothers me b/c, though there is a scaling mechanism in place for turning Undead, there is nothing for Command Undead. Thanks
green_yawgmoth 05-31-07, 05:28 PM	Unintelligent undead also have no abilities beyond natural attacks, and with that 1/2 BAB, they aren't hitting much. So sure, you could have a huge (and temporary) army of undead, but what happens when that fighter with great cleave and full plate comes charging up? Or the cleric with the sun domain uses his greater turning? You are now the proud owner of a large pile of dust. ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Sarlax 06-01-07, 11:17 AM	The problem for the GM is that undead encounters no longer work for very well. I never favor nerfing the PCs to make my job simpler. The player is just using his abilities to good effect. To keep rewarding the player and still use undead - use a LOT of undead. Put really big undead in areas from which it would be hard to remove them so the players don't get a bunch of minions and use less powerful undead in other areas. If the players are going to encounter dozens and dozens of undead, Command Undead and Rebuking won't save them completely, but they will help.
ArcTan 06-01-07, 02:47 PM	Thanks very much for the answers. Command Undead does have a pathetically low save, but unintelligent undead (such as skeletons) have NO save, and there is NO HD limit on the spell. This bothers me b/c, though there is a scaling mechanism in place for turning Undead, there is nothing for Command Undead. Thanks The scaling mechanism is simple. You can only use command undead as many times as you have it prepared per day; it only works on one Undead creature at a time. It only lasts one day per caster level. You can get plenty of Skeletons this way, sure. It's still kind of a waste of 2nd-level spell slots to prepare it and cast it that many times. Especially since these are creatures that can easily be nullified through turning or turned against you through rebuking. And rebuking doesn't take away the creature "for a time" -- if he succeeds on a Command Undead check he has them until he chooses to relinquish them.
ArcTan 06-01-07, 02:48 PM	The spell command undead, by the way, *can* be dispelled and removed by dispel magic, unlike when you Command Undead by making a Rebuke check.
mvincent 06-01-07, 03:04 PM	can Command Undead (spell) be momentarily nullified through rebuking?I would treat that situation with this rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects): "Multiple Mental Control Effects Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys." The use of a 2nd level spell by a 5th level character to completely control a CR8 T-Rex skeleton seems a little sillyThat's more a limitation of T-Rex skeletons. Note that in 2 levels, that same character can create a T-Rex skeleton of his own.
Thiez 06-01-07, 03:12 PM	Unintelligent undead also have no abilities beyond natural attacks, and with that 1/2 BAB, they aren't hitting much. So sure, you could have a huge (and temporary) army of undead, but what happens when that fighter with great cleave and full plate comes charging up? Or the cleric with the sun domain uses his greater turning? You are now the proud owner of a large pile of dust. ;) Undead ain't that bad. You can advance them: 4 HD means +1 CR. That kind of advancement is great. Think of it: For every increase in CR, your undead gains: +2 BaB +1 Ability Score Increase +1(1/3) feat +26 hp + (16 + 4*int mod) skill points +2 to the DCs of special abilities +2 Will save, +1(1/3) fort and refl save Now I'll admit, those feats and skillpoints ain't that useful for unintelligent undead. Just try to give them an int score somehow (I once applied the fiendish template to an assassin vine, int 3 and 60ft. darkvision is great).
green_yawgmoth 06-01-07, 04:06 PM	Undead ain't that bad. You can advance them: 4 HD means +1 CR. That kind of advancement is great. Think of it: For every increase in CR, your undead gains: +2 BaB +1 Ability Score Increase +1(1/3) feat +26 hp +2 Will save, +1(1/3) fort and refl save Now I'll admit, those feats and skillpoints ain't that useful for unintelligent undead. Just try to give them an int score somehow (I once applied the fiendish template to an assassin vine, int 3 and 60ft. darkvision is great).Fixed. Unintelligent undead have no skill points and (iirc) no special abilities. They make nice trap checkers, and they can hold off enemies that are smaller and/or dumber, but they aren't going to be showing off any amazing combat prowess, especially into mid/higher levels. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
captianhowdy 06-01-07, 05:35 PM	They would be alot more powerful, however, once you awakended them, and they then gained all of those feats and skills, as well as some old features it had in life
ArcTan 06-01-07, 05:37 PM	They would be alot more powerful, however, once you awakended them, and they then gained all of those feats and skills, as well as some old features it had in life Awakened Undead are no longer perfectly obedient to a command undead spell.
Sarlax 06-01-07, 08:07 PM	Awakened Undead are no longer perfectly obedient to a command undead spell. They are, however, almost perfectly obedient on their own. They still have Charisma 1, which means they have almost no self-identity, drive, and probably very little desire to protect themselves. They're susceptible to Diplomacy checks but will probably never succeed on a Dip check of their own, so they will never find a leader among themselves who could organize a rebellion of any kind. A good necromancer awakens his horde of skeletons and uses some controlled, charismatic undead lieutenant to keep the troops in line, such as a ghoul, wraith, or spectre.