Animate dead, Does it use Negative energy? Does it bind souls to corpses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate dead, Does it use Negative energy? Does it bind souls to corpses? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElyasRavenwood
02-02-07, 09:08 PM I have a question about the animate dead spell. I know that the spell animates skeletons and zombies. How does it do this? Negative Energy? Does it bind the spirit of the deceased to its rotting body to animate it? I understand that the spell is Evil. Why?
I have tried to dig through my D&D books, and this is what I have found.
Animate dead has been with us for a while. I have a 1st edition player’s handbook- (6th printing 1980)

1st editon players handbook
The text there reads as follows:
3rd level cleric spell (I was directed here from the 5th level wizard spell description P. 47

“ Explanation/ Description: This spell creates the lowest of the undead monsters, skeletons or zombies, from the bones or bodies of dead humans. The effect is to cause these remains to become animated and obey the commands of the Cleric casting the spell. The skeletons or zombies will follow, remain in an area and attack and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature), entering the place, etc. The spell will animate the monsters until they are destroyed or until the magic is dispelled. (See dispel magic spell). The cleric is able to animate 1 skeleton or 1 zombie for each level of experience he or she has attained. Thus a 2nd level cleric can animate 2 of these monsters, a 3rd level 3 etc. The act of animating dead is not basically a good one, and it must be used with careful consideration and good reason by clerics of good alignment. It requires a drop of blood, a piece of human flesh, and a pinch of bone powder or a bone shard to complete this spell. “

Ah the days of brief spell descriptions.

The 2nd edition description is a little longer
I have the 11 printing 1994.

“This spell creates the lowest of the undead monsters- skeletons or zombies- usually from the bones or bodies of dead humans, demihumans, or humanoids. The spell causes existing remains to become animated and obey the simple verbal commands of the caster. The skeletons or zombies can follow the caster, remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature) entering the place, etc. the undead remain animated until they are destroyed in combat or are turned; the magic cannot be dispelled. The following types of dead creatures can be animated: A) Humans, Demihumand, and Humanoids with 1 hit die. The wizard can animate one skeleton for each experience level he has attained, or one zombie for every tow levels. The experience levels, if any of the slain are ignored; the body of a newly dead 9 level fighter is animated as a zombie with 2 hit dice, without special class or racial abilities.
B) Creatures with more than 1 hit die. The number of undead animated is determined by the monster hit dice (the total hit dice cannot exceed the wizard’s level). Skeletal forms have the hit dice of the original creature, while zombie forms have one more hit die. Thus a 12 level wizard could animate four zombie gnolls (4x[2+1 hit dice]=12), or s single fire giant skeleton. Such undead have none of the special abilities they had in life.
C) Creatures with less than 1 hit die. The caster can animate two skeletons per level or one zombie per level. The creatures have their normal hit dice as skeletons and an additional hit die as zombies. Clerics receive a +1 bonus when trying to turn these. This spell assumes that the bodies or bones are available and are reasonably intact (those of skeletons and zombies destroyed in combat wont be)
It requires a drop of blood and a pinch of bone powder or a bone shard to complete the spell. The casting of this spell is not a good act and only evil wizards use it frequently.”

I decided to turn to the Complete Necromancer’s handbook for further clarification about the Animate Dead spell. I understand what it does, I am curious to find out how. I am also looking for text which backs up Shaftiel mentioning that animate dead “a creature that has been animated (even as a skeleton or zombie) can't be raised or resurrected. You are binding their souls to their decaying corpses, delaying their journey to the afterlife so they can carry your luggage” So far I have found nothing
Interestingly in the Complete Necromancer’s handbook on page 46 and 47 the text refers to criminal or black necromancy, Grey or Neutral Necromancy, and Benign white Necromancy.
Interestingly Animate dead is placed in Grey necromancy.
“ Take Animate dead for instance, raising up a zombie to carry one’s luggage is not an evil act but animating the dead for the purpose of attacking a merchant caravan is another matter entirely”
I noticed the luggage connection. I do disagree with this text.

And now lets take a look at the text of the 3.5 spell.
(I know there is a 3.0 version, but I am too lazy to type it out)

“Necromancy [evil]
This spell turns the bones or bodes of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again).
Regardless of the kind of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit. See page 128)
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released). If you are a cleric, any undead you command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
Skeletons: a skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones, co creating a skeleton from a purple worm, for example, is not possible. If a skeleton is made from a corps its flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: a zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy, so a dead gelatinous cube, for example cannot be animated as a zombie.
Materiel components: you must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per hit die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless burned out shells. “
P198 player’s handbook

I have not found any information pertaining to the how and with what the skeletons are animated with. Just that the spell is “evil”

Page 174 of the player’s handbook
“ Necromancy- Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school. Representative spells include, cause fear, and animate dead and finger of death. “

Page 317 of the monster manual states that “ the undead type: undead are once living creatures animated by spiritual and supernatural forces”.

This begins to hint at what animated the undead, the how.

On page 7 of Liber Mortis it states, “ where does the energy for animation come from? Negative Energy”

Well that is all I have found. I am sure there is more stuff under my nose, and I have failed to see it.
The only evidence I have found that Animate dead is evil is the spell description- it states that the spell is evil. I like the idea of souls being bound to their corpses after death, however I have found no text coo berating this.
Well that is all I can think of now
What are your thoughts? Do you have any suggestions or answers?
Seeker95
02-02-07, 10:49 PM Thoughts? The spell works exactly as described. Nothing more is needed.
Suggestions? Just play the spell the way it is written.
Answers? There aren't really any questions.

If your game needs more flavor, add as much as you want. Just be careful not to let your flavor turn into additional mechanics. Or at least don't let your players try to manipulate the spell or your game beyond what the spell does.
Black Mantha
02-03-07, 08:03 AM If you want my opinion...

Normal life is powered by positive energy, unlife is powered by negative energy. Animating the dead is the process of bringing negative energy into a corpse and starting unlife powered by it. This usually involves altering the body.

Since not even a True Resurrection spell can bring back a creature that is still walking around as an undead, the process seems to involve trapping the deceased soul, but you can animate a corpse whose owner has been resurrected. Now here's my guess of how this goes: If you're killed there is still a link between your body and your soul; after all, you need the creature's real body to cast Raise Dead or Resurrect, not just any vessel will do. If your body is animated, something happens with that link to make your soul unable to answer raising attempts.

Unlife is an abomination to nature as well as good gods, and for that reason, creating undead is an evil act and in most places a crime. D&D has an absolute morality; evil and good don't depend on point of view, you can measure which it is. As to why animating the dead is an evil act can be mostly explained by how undead are. Being driven by negative energy almost always produces an evil alignment; even the non-intelligent undead are evil. The only exception I know are ghosts. Furthermore, from druid's point of view, something that doesn't reproduce or die and cannot be used for food but does kill disturbs the natural order. And of course, the what that does to the soul of the deceased would also be a good reason to consider it evil.

Like most crimes, though, breaking the law can be the right thing to do in some situations. But even if you destroy them right afterwards, it had better be absolutely vital. A cleric of a good deity should be very careful or risk losing his powers.
Decinious
02-03-07, 10:13 AM I disagree with animate dead binding the soul. I believe that they just didn't think how they wrote out Resurrection. Since there is no reference to the subject can't be undead in the clone spell, you can readily clone someone if their body has been animated. So, by that reasoning animate doesn't trap the soul, it just prevents resurrection because of all the negative energy coursing through the corpse. I would allow resurrection to work if the sample was acquired before corpse animation.
Templetroll
02-03-07, 09:36 PM I disagree with animate dead binding the soul. I believe that they just didn't think how they wrote out Resurrection. Since there is no reference to the subject can't be undead in the clone spell, you can readily clone someone if their body has been animated. So, by that reasoning animate doesn't trap the soul, it just prevents resurrection because of all the negative energy coursing through the corpse. I would allow resurrection to work if the sample was acquired before corpse animation.

Clone requires a piece of flesh from the owner's living body and the flesh must be prevented from rotting. The soul enters the clone as soon as the creature is dead. You cannot Animate Dead on a living creature so the Clone would have the soul before the corpse could be animated. Thus, your point about animation is not proven.

That also means that the point in Clone about it not taking effect if the soul is "not available' means you should consider what can cause a soul to become 'not available'. One suggestion is that Animate Dead prevents the soul from moving to its rest or to being restored to a living body. Resurrection requires that the undead be destroyed and Clone requires that a soul be free to move into the cloned body.

Another point - Cloning cause any other remains to become "inert".

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source
Main Entry: in·ert
Pronunciation: in-'&rt
Function: adjective
1 : lacking the power to move
2 : deficient in active properties; especially : lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action

"Unable to move" okay a dead body can't move but animation means allowing movement. Perhaps this inert state prevents animation? The second definition is "lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action" Perhaps this lack is what prevents the remains from being restored to life or animated?
ElyasRavenwood
02-03-07, 09:43 PM Thank you all for your thoughts.
Seeker 95. I like the flavor of souls being bound with an animate dead spell. I seem to remember that the animating was part of the soul being dragged back from the afterlife in order to make its corpse walk again. I understand the concept of Positive energy being the stuff of life, and negative energy being, well unlife- and having the two cancel each other out, or at a minimum exposure one way or the other being very harmful and disruptive. It all makes mechanical since in the game. And further more the concept of Turning undead, being the channeling of positive energy rather then divine power, which in my opinion, allows for a broader imagining of “Turning” and clerics, rather then the Knight Templar mold, from which the cleric originally sprung.
But I digress. Black Mantha I appreciate how you have laid things out, and that is generally my view of things. However Dicenous had a good point. Concerning the negative energy polluting a corps so the corpse cannot be resurrected.
I suppose the next step is to investigate what using a Raise dead a resurrection and a true resurrection would do if directly cast upon corporeal undead.
I guess I was just looking to see if there was any descriptive text in a TSR or Wizards of the coast book which described how an animate dead spell works. My best guess from my reading is that a corpse is animated by negative energy.
Thank you for your thoughts, I’m off to look up how healing spells effect undead, and specifically how spells that resurrect the dead work on undead.

Does anyone know of any descriptive text on how an animate dead spell works? where might this descriptive text be? Liber Mortis, Complete Necromancer?
again thank you for your thoughts.
joshuaeddy27
02-03-07, 10:28 PM The biggest problem with the entire idea was already said, that being absolute morality. i have an "evil" charachter which raises the dead to fight the evil. he is still seen as evil because of that clause, so regardless.

honestly, use common sense for a couple moments and suppose that as you work wherever it is that you work, a man who was rotting came in the door. beyodn evil, youd be horrified. horror caused by fear, probably offensive against it. outside of absolute morality, unless your a necromancer, a dead thing coming at you is going to freak you the hell out and thus "evil" can be looked at as mildly to horrifyingly alarming and a simple perversion of life considering it doesnt follow the standard laws of nature and doesnt involve divine intervention, and so its "evil" any way you look at it, weven if not truly evil.

thats how i figured it at least, and it was a rough discovery considering that partuicular charachter was soon killed my his undead masses after he failed a command check and the roughly 100 undead under that one induvidual killed him.
ElyasRavenwood
02-03-07, 11:28 PM Thank you for your thoughts Temple troll. I had not thought of the clone spell, but that ads another dimension to this discussion.
Joshuaeddy77, well that is pretty rough, beaten to death by your own zombies. Thank you. I understand that animating the dead is an evil repugnant repulsive act. I was just hoping to uncover some flavor text somewhere in the D and D books. I know that I can go ahead and make my own rulings so on and so forth.
green_yawgmoth
02-04-07, 12:18 AM Yes, it uses negative energy. No, it doesn't bind souls to anything. It's evil because desecrating graves is "evil' in most cultures, and it spills over into D&D.

My advice? drop all alignment descriptors from all spells, if not dropping alignment entirely.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
katarl
02-04-07, 09:12 AM Magic Jar states that mindless undead, such as skeletons and zombies have not got souls (and therefore are unsuitable for controlling). Obscure, but its RAWish.

I prefer to think that corporeal, mindless undead have not got souls, and when awakened (awaken undead) they still have only the slightest glimmer of a 'remembered' soul. Sentient corporeal undead like liches, ghouls and vampires have their original souls, while sentient incorporeal undead usually are their original souls. Creating undead is evil, and so is being undead, so souls bound to undead are made evil thus increasing the karmic distribution of good/evil, when the undead is destroyed and joins their god/power/plane.

The reasons I can think of for animate dead to be evil are- nature is innately good, and creating undead is unnatural; it brings in negative energy into the world and negative energy is evil; disgusting and unpleasant things are innately evil (don't like this one); its an arbitrary rule set down by the overgod to balance out good and evil; it wasn't originally evil, but became so when someone tainted the spell (?).

Its important to remember that good and evil are actually contractual forces in the fantasy world, not simple concepts like in this one, they can be arbitarily decided without any basis and still be coherent and non-contradictory.
Black Mantha
02-04-07, 12:58 PM I suppose the next step is to investigate what using a Raise dead a resurrection and a true resurrection would do if directly cast upon corporeal undead.
Raise Dead states it cannot raise someone who has been turned into an undead. Resurrection and True Resurrection state that they can "raise a creature that has been turned into an undead an destroyed", which implies that it still cannot raise someone who is still walking around as an undead.
maurezen
02-04-07, 01:37 PM Resurrection and True Resurrection state that they can "raise a creature that has been turned into an undead an destroyed", which implies that it still cannot raise someone who is still walking around as an undead.
Resurrection and True Resurrection descriptions state specifically that these spells cannot resurrect undead creatures.
Black Mantha
02-04-07, 01:42 PM Resurrection and True Resurrection descriptions state specifically that these spells cannot resurrect undead creatures.
That's what I said. :confused:
maurezen
02-04-07, 02:36 PM OOOPS, that's what we get if doing 4 things simultaneously... I'm terribly sorry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 02-02-07, 09:08 PM	I have a question about the animate dead spell. I know that the spell animates skeletons and zombies. How does it do this? Negative Energy? Does it bind the spirit of the deceased to its rotting body to animate it? I understand that the spell is Evil. Why? I have tried to dig through my D&D books, and this is what I have found. Animate dead has been with us for a while. I have a 1st edition player’s handbook- (6th printing 1980) 1st editon players handbook The text there reads as follows: 3rd level cleric spell (I was directed here from the 5th level wizard spell description P. 47 “ Explanation/ Description: This spell creates the lowest of the undead monsters, skeletons or zombies, from the bones or bodies of dead humans. The effect is to cause these remains to become animated and obey the commands of the Cleric casting the spell. The skeletons or zombies will follow, remain in an area and attack and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature), entering the place, etc. The spell will animate the monsters until they are destroyed or until the magic is dispelled. (See dispel magic spell). The cleric is able to animate 1 skeleton or 1 zombie for each level of experience he or she has attained. Thus a 2nd level cleric can animate 2 of these monsters, a 3rd level 3 etc. The act of animating dead is not basically a good one, and it must be used with careful consideration and good reason by clerics of good alignment. It requires a drop of blood, a piece of human flesh, and a pinch of bone powder or a bone shard to complete this spell. “ Ah the days of brief spell descriptions. The 2nd edition description is a little longer I have the 11 printing 1994. “This spell creates the lowest of the undead monsters- skeletons or zombies- usually from the bones or bodies of dead humans, demihumans, or humanoids. The spell causes existing remains to become animated and obey the simple verbal commands of the caster. The skeletons or zombies can follow the caster, remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature) entering the place, etc. the undead remain animated until they are destroyed in combat or are turned; the magic cannot be dispelled. The following types of dead creatures can be animated: A) Humans, Demihumand, and Humanoids with 1 hit die. The wizard can animate one skeleton for each experience level he has attained, or one zombie for every tow levels. The experience levels, if any of the slain are ignored; the body of a newly dead 9 level fighter is animated as a zombie with 2 hit dice, without special class or racial abilities. B) Creatures with more than 1 hit die. The number of undead animated is determined by the monster hit dice (the total hit dice cannot exceed the wizard’s level). Skeletal forms have the hit dice of the original creature, while zombie forms have one more hit die. Thus a 12 level wizard could animate four zombie gnolls (4x[2+1 hit dice]=12), or s single fire giant skeleton. Such undead have none of the special abilities they had in life. C) Creatures with less than 1 hit die. The caster can animate two skeletons per level or one zombie per level. The creatures have their normal hit dice as skeletons and an additional hit die as zombies. Clerics receive a +1 bonus when trying to turn these. This spell assumes that the bodies or bones are available and are reasonably intact (those of skeletons and zombies destroyed in combat wont be) It requires a drop of blood and a pinch of bone powder or a bone shard to complete the spell. The casting of this spell is not a good act and only evil wizards use it frequently.” I decided to turn to the Complete Necromancer’s handbook for further clarification about the Animate Dead spell. I understand what it does, I am curious to find out how. I am also looking for text which backs up Shaftiel mentioning that animate dead “a creature that has been animated (even as a skeleton or zombie) can't be raised or resurrected. You are binding their souls to their decaying corpses, delaying their journey to the afterlife so they can carry your luggage” So far I have found nothing Interestingly in the Complete Necromancer’s handbook on page 46 and 47 the text refers to criminal or black necromancy, Grey or Neutral Necromancy, and Benign white Necromancy. Interestingly Animate dead is placed in Grey necromancy. “ Take Animate dead for instance, raising up a zombie to carry one’s luggage is not an evil act but animating the dead for the purpose of attacking a merchant caravan is another matter entirely” I noticed the luggage connection. I do disagree with this text. And now lets take a look at the text of the 3.5 spell. (I know there is a 3.0 version, but I am too lazy to type it out) “Necromancy [evil] This spell turns the bones or bodes of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again). Regardless of the kind of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit. See page 128) The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released). If you are a cleric, any undead you command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit. Skeletons: a skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones, co creating a skeleton from a purple worm, for example, is not possible. If a skeleton is made from a corps its flesh falls off the bones. Zombies: a zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy, so a dead gelatinous cube, for example cannot be animated as a zombie. Materiel components: you must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per hit die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless burned out shells. “ P198 player’s handbook I have not found any information pertaining to the how and with what the skeletons are animated with. Just that the spell is “evil” Page 174 of the player’s handbook “ Necromancy- Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school. Representative spells include, cause fear, and animate dead and finger of death. “ Page 317 of the monster manual states that “ the undead type: undead are once living creatures animated by spiritual and supernatural forces”. This begins to hint at what animated the undead, the how. On page 7 of Liber Mortis it states, “ where does the energy for animation come from? Negative Energy” Well that is all I have found. I am sure there is more stuff under my nose, and I have failed to see it. The only evidence I have found that Animate dead is evil is the spell description- it states that the spell is evil. I like the idea of souls being bound to their corpses after death, however I have found no text coo berating this. Well that is all I can think of now What are your thoughts? Do you have any suggestions or answers?
Seeker95 02-02-07, 10:49 PM	Thoughts? The spell works exactly as described. Nothing more is needed. Suggestions? Just play the spell the way it is written. Answers? There aren't really any questions. If your game needs more flavor, add as much as you want. Just be careful not to let your flavor turn into additional mechanics. Or at least don't let your players try to manipulate the spell or your game beyond what the spell does.
Black Mantha 02-03-07, 08:03 AM	If you want my opinion... Normal life is powered by positive energy, unlife is powered by negative energy. Animating the dead is the process of bringing negative energy into a corpse and starting unlife powered by it. This usually involves altering the body. Since not even a True Resurrection spell can bring back a creature that is still walking around as an undead, the process seems to involve trapping the deceased soul, but you can animate a corpse whose owner has been resurrected. Now here's my guess of how this goes: If you're killed there is still a link between your body and your soul; after all, you need the creature's real body to cast Raise Dead or Resurrect, not just any vessel will do. If your body is animated, something happens with that link to make your soul unable to answer raising attempts. Unlife is an abomination to nature as well as good gods, and for that reason, creating undead is an evil act and in most places a crime. D&D has an absolute morality; evil and good don't depend on point of view, you can measure which it is. As to why animating the dead is an evil act can be mostly explained by how undead are. Being driven by negative energy almost always produces an evil alignment; even the non-intelligent undead are evil. The only exception I know are ghosts. Furthermore, from druid's point of view, something that doesn't reproduce or die and cannot be used for food but does kill disturbs the natural order. And of course, the what that does to the soul of the deceased would also be a good reason to consider it evil. Like most crimes, though, breaking the law can be the right thing to do in some situations. But even if you destroy them right afterwards, it had better be absolutely vital. A cleric of a good deity should be very careful or risk losing his powers.
Decinious 02-03-07, 10:13 AM	I disagree with animate dead binding the soul. I believe that they just didn't think how they wrote out Resurrection. Since there is no reference to the subject can't be undead in the clone spell, you can readily clone someone if their body has been animated. So, by that reasoning animate doesn't trap the soul, it just prevents resurrection because of all the negative energy coursing through the corpse. I would allow resurrection to work if the sample was acquired before corpse animation.
Templetroll 02-03-07, 09:36 PM	I disagree with animate dead binding the soul. I believe that they just didn't think how they wrote out Resurrection. Since there is no reference to the subject can't be undead in the clone spell, you can readily clone someone if their body has been animated. So, by that reasoning animate doesn't trap the soul, it just prevents resurrection because of all the negative energy coursing through the corpse. I would allow resurrection to work if the sample was acquired before corpse animation. Clone requires a piece of flesh from the owner's living body and the flesh must be prevented from rotting. The soul enters the clone as soon as the creature is dead. You cannot Animate Dead on a living creature so the Clone would have the soul before the corpse could be animated. Thus, your point about animation is not proven. That also means that the point in Clone about it not taking effect if the soul is "not available' means you should consider what can cause a soul to become 'not available'. One suggestion is that Animate Dead prevents the soul from moving to its rest or to being restored to a living body. Resurrection requires that the undead be destroyed and Clone requires that a soul be free to move into the cloned body. Another point - Cloning cause any other remains to become "inert". Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source Main Entry: in·ert Pronunciation: in-'&rt Function: adjective 1 : lacking the power to move 2 : deficient in active properties; especially : lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action "Unable to move" okay a dead body can't move but animation means allowing movement. Perhaps this inert state prevents animation? The second definition is "lacking a usual or anticipated chemical or biological action" Perhaps this lack is what prevents the remains from being restored to life or animated?
ElyasRavenwood 02-03-07, 09:43 PM	Thank you all for your thoughts. Seeker 95. I like the flavor of souls being bound with an animate dead spell. I seem to remember that the animating was part of the soul being dragged back from the afterlife in order to make its corpse walk again. I understand the concept of Positive energy being the stuff of life, and negative energy being, well unlife- and having the two cancel each other out, or at a minimum exposure one way or the other being very harmful and disruptive. It all makes mechanical since in the game. And further more the concept of Turning undead, being the channeling of positive energy rather then divine power, which in my opinion, allows for a broader imagining of “Turning” and clerics, rather then the Knight Templar mold, from which the cleric originally sprung. But I digress. Black Mantha I appreciate how you have laid things out, and that is generally my view of things. However Dicenous had a good point. Concerning the negative energy polluting a corps so the corpse cannot be resurrected. I suppose the next step is to investigate what using a Raise dead a resurrection and a true resurrection would do if directly cast upon corporeal undead. I guess I was just looking to see if there was any descriptive text in a TSR or Wizards of the coast book which described how an animate dead spell works. My best guess from my reading is that a corpse is animated by negative energy. Thank you for your thoughts, I’m off to look up how healing spells effect undead, and specifically how spells that resurrect the dead work on undead. Does anyone know of any descriptive text on how an animate dead spell works? where might this descriptive text be? Liber Mortis, Complete Necromancer? again thank you for your thoughts.
joshuaeddy27 02-03-07, 10:28 PM	The biggest problem with the entire idea was already said, that being absolute morality. i have an "evil" charachter which raises the dead to fight the evil. he is still seen as evil because of that clause, so regardless. honestly, use common sense for a couple moments and suppose that as you work wherever it is that you work, a man who was rotting came in the door. beyodn evil, youd be horrified. horror caused by fear, probably offensive against it. outside of absolute morality, unless your a necromancer, a dead thing coming at you is going to freak you the hell out and thus "evil" can be looked at as mildly to horrifyingly alarming and a simple perversion of life considering it doesnt follow the standard laws of nature and doesnt involve divine intervention, and so its "evil" any way you look at it, weven if not truly evil. thats how i figured it at least, and it was a rough discovery considering that partuicular charachter was soon killed my his undead masses after he failed a command check and the roughly 100 undead under that one induvidual killed him.
ElyasRavenwood 02-03-07, 11:28 PM	Thank you for your thoughts Temple troll. I had not thought of the clone spell, but that ads another dimension to this discussion. Joshuaeddy77, well that is pretty rough, beaten to death by your own zombies. Thank you. I understand that animating the dead is an evil repugnant repulsive act. I was just hoping to uncover some flavor text somewhere in the D and D books. I know that I can go ahead and make my own rulings so on and so forth.
green_yawgmoth 02-04-07, 12:18 AM	Yes, it uses negative energy. No, it doesn't bind souls to anything. It's evil because desecrating graves is "evil' in most cultures, and it spills over into D&D. My advice? drop all alignment descriptors from all spells, if not dropping alignment entirely. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
katarl 02-04-07, 09:12 AM	Magic Jar states that mindless undead, such as skeletons and zombies have not got souls (and therefore are unsuitable for controlling). Obscure, but its RAWish. I prefer to think that corporeal, mindless undead have not got souls, and when awakened (awaken undead) they still have only the slightest glimmer of a 'remembered' soul. Sentient corporeal undead like liches, ghouls and vampires have their original souls, while sentient incorporeal undead usually are their original souls. Creating undead is evil, and so is being undead, so souls bound to undead are made evil thus increasing the karmic distribution of good/evil, when the undead is destroyed and joins their god/power/plane. The reasons I can think of for animate dead to be evil are- nature is innately good, and creating undead is unnatural; it brings in negative energy into the world and negative energy is evil; disgusting and unpleasant things are innately evil (don't like this one); its an arbitrary rule set down by the overgod to balance out good and evil; it wasn't originally evil, but became so when someone tainted the spell (?). Its important to remember that good and evil are actually contractual forces in the fantasy world, not simple concepts like in this one, they can be arbitarily decided without any basis and still be coherent and non-contradictory.
Black Mantha 02-04-07, 12:58 PM	I suppose the next step is to investigate what using a Raise dead a resurrection and a true resurrection would do if directly cast upon corporeal undead. Raise Dead states it cannot raise someone who has been turned into an undead. Resurrection and True Resurrection state that they can "raise a creature that has been turned into an undead an destroyed", which implies that it still cannot raise someone who is still walking around as an undead.
maurezen 02-04-07, 01:37 PM	Resurrection and True Resurrection state that they can "raise a creature that has been turned into an undead an destroyed", which implies that it still cannot raise someone who is still walking around as an undead. Resurrection and True Resurrection descriptions state specifically that these spells cannot resurrect undead creatures.
Black Mantha 02-04-07, 01:42 PM	Resurrection and True Resurrection descriptions state specifically that these spells cannot resurrect undead creatures. That's what I said. :confused:
maurezen 02-04-07, 02:36 PM	OOOPS, that's what we get if doing 4 things simultaneously... I'm terribly sorry.