animate dead onyx component [Archive] - Wizards Community

animate dead onyx component [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
belewda
07-25-05, 05:14 PM The animate dead and create undead spells require onyx of 25 or 50 gold per HD of the creature you intend to animate. Onyx is listed in the DMG as having an average value of 6 gold. How is it possible to ever cast animate dead or create undead if onyx is never worth the minimum amount to animate a 1 HD creature (I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that the best you can do with gemcutting is a 20% increase in value so 7-8 gold is the best your average onyx can get)?

So far, my True Necromancer has never been able to use his create undead power or cast animate dead since I can't find an onyx valuable enough to be useful. Is this a mistake in the spell description, the value of the stones in the DMG, or just plain cruelty on the part of the rules?
Starmage21
07-25-05, 05:23 PM gemstones can be cut and refined, increasing their value.

The worlds largest diamond was worth several million dollars, but when it was cut down into 2 peices, it was worth quite a bit more.
green_yawgmoth
07-25-05, 06:00 PM I would say the DMG prices are per karat of the gem, so you'd need about a 5 karat chunk of it to animate 1 HD of undead.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Starmage21
07-25-05, 06:06 PM I would say the DMG prices are per karat of the gem, so you'd need about a 5 karat chunk of it to animate 1 HD of undead.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

thats true too, the DMG assumes the size of the gem is fairly small.
belewda
07-25-05, 06:36 PM Even if the DMG is assuming that these are small stones, the value for an onyx is 2d4X10 gold (I was wrong in my initial post). If the most an onyx can go for is 80 gold, even if that is per karat, then we're talking about one massive gem to animate the critters that I'm currently fighting. This last game we were fighting 13HD giants. That's a 650 gold onyx. The need for such an abnormal gem is ludicrous. If I do manage to come across an onyx 8-9 times the size of other availble stones, there's not much chance the owner will part with it.

If I do manage to convince my DM that the DMG stones are small and I just need larger ones then it presents another problem. The spell descriptions require that the gems be placed into the eye socket or mouth of the creature. If the stone size has to go up in order to make it more valuable, then I'm going to be limited again in what I can animate just because I can't force the gem into the eye or mouth.

Also, I would assume that the randomness in the value reflects different sizes, different cuts or both. Given that, there could really only be improvements in whatever attribute of the gem isn't covered by that randomization.

At this point, I think my best bet is to convince my DM that the frustration of necromancers around the world has artificially inflated the value of onyx to crazy levels.
green_yawgmoth
07-25-05, 08:36 PM Do you know how big 8 carats is? 1.6 grams. Sure that'd be huge to wear on your finger or ears, but in actual size, I could jam an onyx of around 10 carats into your eye socket and have room left over. Not to mention that you don't need one big whopping onyx to animate something big; you can use smaller gems that add up to the needed total value.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mvincent
07-25-05, 09:05 PM you don't need one big whopping onyx to animate something big; you can use smaller gems that add up to the needed total value.Sounds like a good house-rule, but I don't think that's supported RAW-wise:
"You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse"

But most DM's let you purchase spell-components fairly freely (i.e. you can typically buy any mundane item up to 1000gp at most towns). I think the costs are just intended as monentary expenditures. If large pieces of onyx are all that rare, then their value should be higher (which oddly, might make expensive ones easier to find).
robinscw
07-25-05, 10:11 PM Dear God, not to start the endless debate between "roleplayers" and "rollplayers" but just ask to buy an onyx worth 25 or 50 gp. Suspend disbelief and assume that if you pay 50 gp for the onyx it satisfies the nature of the spell regardless of it's actual value. Does it really matter? The point of paying to cast the spell is to make it a little harder to overcast when it's first acquired. There's no reason to limit your spellcasting because a component doesn't really make sense. There are PLENTY of "free" spell components for various spells that would be far more pricey/unrealistic but we ignore them because we don't actually pay for them, or consider Augury's focus of sticks or bones worth 25 gp. Tell your DM that D&D is JUST A GAME and in the fantasy world where your game takes place it is easy to find onyx worth 25 gp and end the discussion, you're dangerously close to sounding like one of those LARP-ers from White Wolf.
robinscw
07-25-05, 10:14 PM Oh, and if you are a LARP-er, just buy a bunch of black balloons and attach tags stating "Onxy: 25 gp" then leave it on your gm's doorstep, he'll be obligated to sell it to you as the market is obviously flooded :cool:
lunitius
07-25-05, 11:14 PM Well I am asking to be flame bait for this but i am the dm for this particular game . We are just getting to the point were this is an issue and instead of / before creating a house rule we thought to see what everyone else had to say or if this had come up before. Our current game is not a very monentarily heavy one at all and the diff of a 50gp stone and a 500gp stone is very significant (everyone has played in games like this).

Also the idea of it just being a game never escapes any of us but the one of the reasons we are curious is that if you annimate a 13hd creature you are getting a very valuable tool to use as you see fit. If i allow this without some balance for it then i have a necromancer with an army of everything we have slain in the past (or at least the most nasty critters) following the party. This extra firepower from the PC side makes me overcompensate when i build encounters. If i am going to allow these powerful creatures to be used by the party (which is cool with me) then i need to fully understand how the rule was intended to work and barring that we as a group need to come up with a balancing house rule that does the rewards of the spell justice and not just lip service.

So any suggestions are welcome. I do like the carat idea though but want to hear more before deciding.

As for other components i don't normally care. We have a house rule in place that says most components under 1,000 gp are freely available in each town or by hunting/gathering or by using various skills that got a character to the point they are at (you don't just become a wizard you have to learn some skillls etc.....) with exception to certain named ingredients. For instance i make pearls for the identification spell a required ingredient.

....and for the record we aren't larpers....ugh i shudder every time i think of them. One game, one time was enough to Know.

-- Lunitius
robinscw
07-26-05, 02:34 AM Rock on, I like your style. As far as balancing goes, remember that create undead is not called "create infinite undead that obey your every command" it just creates undead. Your wizard is going to be spending spell slots everyday for control undead as well as 25 gp for every hit die of the monster. There's also a limit to how many hit die he can actually control. If you look, a wand of magic missiles or something similar would only cost your wizard 375 gp, which is the cost of a 15 hd creature. If your wizard wants to invest all his cash in an undead servant, it's not that big a deal, just dm that he feels the effects of not having better armor/wands/weapons etc. The system is set up to balance itself, and though we all know it's flawed, it's not like you should prevent a character from enjoying one of the coolest necromancy spells because you fear it might be broken. But that's just my two cents, the beauty of dm-ing is that you are GOD to your players and can kill them as you see fit. :cool:
green_yawgmoth
07-26-05, 02:40 AM the beauty of dm-ing is that you are GOD to your players and can kill them as you see fit. :cool:
I really hope this was meant in jest. Otherwise, I hope to never see you behind the screen. :nonono:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
MystErikEry
07-26-05, 03:49 AM It's been mentioned once, but I think it got lost in the shuffle.

You could use an ordinary gemstone, but have it cut and worked with (likely by someone with Craft(Stonecutting/Gemsmithing) or somesuch) until it was worth considerably more. I think that the "worth at least _" means that the person getting the gemstone has put considerable magical resources (serums, potions, hooby-dooby dust, and so on) into the preparation of the stone, just like how they are assumed to have necessary magical ingredients when making other kinds of items (be they alchemical or magical in nature).

So either:

a) you buy an ordinary gemstone, and then get someone to work it, and it just happens to come out to 50 gp per HD total when your character is satisfied with the number of facets or whatnot, which is what the spell's magic uses to tinker with or whatnot...

or

b) the wizard buys an already-worked gemstone from some wizardy shop from another wizard who made the gemstone earlier just in case someone needed it (and if they're a diviner, even better; they could have Forseen it or somesuch).

Either way, you've got your appropriately-costed gemstone, without having to buy an obnoxiously large gemstone or one that is more expensive without any fluff reason.
Sildatorak
07-26-05, 05:20 AM Also the idea of it just being a game never escapes any of us but the one of the reasons we are curious is that if you annimate a 13hd creature you are getting a very valuable tool to use as you see fit. If i allow this without some balance for it then i have a necromancer with an army of everything we have slain in the past (or at least the most nasty critters) following the party

The spell does have a limit of how many undead you can control at a time built in. If your PC's have an army of everything they've ever slain following them, they should be extremely frightened.

As for the balance aspect of the component, I don't think it is more important to focus on 25 gp per HD than onyx. Heck, by the DMG's guidelines, you can fish up an onyx of that value in just about any town. If you are being a bit more focused on the reasonability of acquiring particular components from particular locations, you might just want to make it gemstones in general instead of just onyx.
robinscw
07-26-05, 05:48 AM Of course it's a joke Yawg. DM's have a responsibility to their players and vice versa, it's what makes the world go round. Well, that and cheetos, but seriously, I'm just saying that DM's, while responsible to their players, can easily say that onyx worth 25 gp is always available and in the same game create a shortage if they see fit. So why fret about it? Obviously the dm can fix this problem without going into size, cut, clarity, etc. I really am sorry though, I see you posting awesome comments across these boards and wouldn't want to anger phyrexia.
green_yawgmoth
07-26-05, 01:43 PM Of course it's a joke Yawg. DM's have a responsibility to their players and vice versa, it's what makes the world go round. Well, that and cheetos, but seriously, I'm just saying that DM's, while responsible to their players, can easily say that onyx worth 25 gp is always available and in the same game create a shortage if they see fit. So why fret about it? Obviously the dm can fix this problem without going into size, cut, clarity, etc. I really am sorry though, I see you posting awesome comments across these boards and wouldn't want to anger phyrexia.
No harm done. :) I was hoping it's a joke, but given what I've read in "what's a player to do", I've seen worse.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
belewda 07-25-05, 05:14 PM	The animate dead and create undead spells require onyx of 25 or 50 gold per HD of the creature you intend to animate. Onyx is listed in the DMG as having an average value of 6 gold. How is it possible to ever cast animate dead or create undead if onyx is never worth the minimum amount to animate a 1 HD creature (I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that the best you can do with gemcutting is a 20% increase in value so 7-8 gold is the best your average onyx can get)? So far, my True Necromancer has never been able to use his create undead power or cast animate dead since I can't find an onyx valuable enough to be useful. Is this a mistake in the spell description, the value of the stones in the DMG, or just plain cruelty on the part of the rules?
Starmage21 07-25-05, 05:23 PM	gemstones can be cut and refined, increasing their value. The worlds largest diamond was worth several million dollars, but when it was cut down into 2 peices, it was worth quite a bit more.
green_yawgmoth 07-25-05, 06:00 PM	I would say the DMG prices are per karat of the gem, so you'd need about a 5 karat chunk of it to animate 1 HD of undead. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Starmage21 07-25-05, 06:06 PM	I would say the DMG prices are per karat of the gem, so you'd need about a 5 karat chunk of it to animate 1 HD of undead. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif thats true too, the DMG assumes the size of the gem is fairly small.
belewda 07-25-05, 06:36 PM	Even if the DMG is assuming that these are small stones, the value for an onyx is 2d4X10 gold (I was wrong in my initial post). If the most an onyx can go for is 80 gold, even if that is per karat, then we're talking about one massive gem to animate the critters that I'm currently fighting. This last game we were fighting 13HD giants. That's a 650 gold onyx. The need for such an abnormal gem is ludicrous. If I do manage to come across an onyx 8-9 times the size of other availble stones, there's not much chance the owner will part with it. If I do manage to convince my DM that the DMG stones are small and I just need larger ones then it presents another problem. The spell descriptions require that the gems be placed into the eye socket or mouth of the creature. If the stone size has to go up in order to make it more valuable, then I'm going to be limited again in what I can animate just because I can't force the gem into the eye or mouth. Also, I would assume that the randomness in the value reflects different sizes, different cuts or both. Given that, there could really only be improvements in whatever attribute of the gem isn't covered by that randomization. At this point, I think my best bet is to convince my DM that the frustration of necromancers around the world has artificially inflated the value of onyx to crazy levels.
green_yawgmoth 07-25-05, 08:36 PM	Do you know how big 8 carats is? 1.6 grams. Sure that'd be huge to wear on your finger or ears, but in actual size, I could jam an onyx of around 10 carats into your eye socket and have room left over. Not to mention that you don't need one big whopping onyx to animate something big; you can use smaller gems that add up to the needed total value. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
mvincent 07-25-05, 09:05 PM	you don't need one big whopping onyx to animate something big; you can use smaller gems that add up to the needed total value.Sounds like a good house-rule, but I don't think that's supported RAW-wise: "You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse" But most DM's let you purchase spell-components fairly freely (i.e. you can typically buy any mundane item up to 1000gp at most towns). I think the costs are just intended as monentary expenditures. If large pieces of onyx are all that rare, then their value should be higher (which oddly, might make expensive ones easier to find).
robinscw 07-25-05, 10:11 PM	Dear God, not to start the endless debate between "roleplayers" and "rollplayers" but just ask to buy an onyx worth 25 or 50 gp. Suspend disbelief and assume that if you pay 50 gp for the onyx it satisfies the nature of the spell regardless of it's actual value. Does it really matter? The point of paying to cast the spell is to make it a little harder to overcast when it's first acquired. There's no reason to limit your spellcasting because a component doesn't really make sense. There are PLENTY of "free" spell components for various spells that would be far more pricey/unrealistic but we ignore them because we don't actually pay for them, or consider Augury's focus of sticks or bones worth 25 gp. Tell your DM that D&D is JUST A GAME and in the fantasy world where your game takes place it is easy to find onyx worth 25 gp and end the discussion, you're dangerously close to sounding like one of those LARP-ers from White Wolf.
robinscw 07-25-05, 10:14 PM	Oh, and if you are a LARP-er, just buy a bunch of black balloons and attach tags stating "Onxy: 25 gp" then leave it on your gm's doorstep, he'll be obligated to sell it to you as the market is obviously flooded :cool:
lunitius 07-25-05, 11:14 PM	Well I am asking to be flame bait for this but i am the dm for this particular game . We are just getting to the point were this is an issue and instead of / before creating a house rule we thought to see what everyone else had to say or if this had come up before. Our current game is not a very monentarily heavy one at all and the diff of a 50gp stone and a 500gp stone is very significant (everyone has played in games like this). Also the idea of it just being a game never escapes any of us but the one of the reasons we are curious is that if you annimate a 13hd creature you are getting a very valuable tool to use as you see fit. If i allow this without some balance for it then i have a necromancer with an army of everything we have slain in the past (or at least the most nasty critters) following the party. This extra firepower from the PC side makes me overcompensate when i build encounters. If i am going to allow these powerful creatures to be used by the party (which is cool with me) then i need to fully understand how the rule was intended to work and barring that we as a group need to come up with a balancing house rule that does the rewards of the spell justice and not just lip service. So any suggestions are welcome. I do like the carat idea though but want to hear more before deciding. As for other components i don't normally care. We have a house rule in place that says most components under 1,000 gp are freely available in each town or by hunting/gathering or by using various skills that got a character to the point they are at (you don't just become a wizard you have to learn some skillls etc.....) with exception to certain named ingredients. For instance i make pearls for the identification spell a required ingredient. ....and for the record we aren't larpers....ugh i shudder every time i think of them. One game, one time was enough to Know. -- Lunitius
robinscw 07-26-05, 02:34 AM	Rock on, I like your style. As far as balancing goes, remember that create undead is not called "create infinite undead that obey your every command" it just creates undead. Your wizard is going to be spending spell slots everyday for control undead as well as 25 gp for every hit die of the monster. There's also a limit to how many hit die he can actually control. If you look, a wand of magic missiles or something similar would only cost your wizard 375 gp, which is the cost of a 15 hd creature. If your wizard wants to invest all his cash in an undead servant, it's not that big a deal, just dm that he feels the effects of not having better armor/wands/weapons etc. The system is set up to balance itself, and though we all know it's flawed, it's not like you should prevent a character from enjoying one of the coolest necromancy spells because you fear it might be broken. But that's just my two cents, the beauty of dm-ing is that you are GOD to your players and can kill them as you see fit. :cool:
green_yawgmoth 07-26-05, 02:40 AM	the beauty of dm-ing is that you are GOD to your players and can kill them as you see fit. :cool: I really hope this was meant in jest. Otherwise, I hope to never see you behind the screen. :nonono: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
MystErikEry 07-26-05, 03:49 AM	It's been mentioned once, but I think it got lost in the shuffle. You could use an ordinary gemstone, but have it cut and worked with (likely by someone with Craft(Stonecutting/Gemsmithing) or somesuch) until it was worth considerably more. I think that the "worth at least _" means that the person getting the gemstone has put considerable magical resources (serums, potions, hooby-dooby dust, and so on) into the preparation of the stone, just like how they are assumed to have necessary magical ingredients when making other kinds of items (be they alchemical or magical in nature). So either: a) you buy an ordinary gemstone, and then get someone to work it, and it just happens to come out to 50 gp per HD total when your character is satisfied with the number of facets or whatnot, which is what the spell's magic uses to tinker with or whatnot... or b) the wizard buys an already-worked gemstone from some wizardy shop from another wizard who made the gemstone earlier just in case someone needed it (and if they're a diviner, even better; they could have Forseen it or somesuch). Either way, you've got your appropriately-costed gemstone, without having to buy an obnoxiously large gemstone or one that is more expensive without any fluff reason.
Sildatorak 07-26-05, 05:20 AM	Also the idea of it just being a game never escapes any of us but the one of the reasons we are curious is that if you annimate a 13hd creature you are getting a very valuable tool to use as you see fit. If i allow this without some balance for it then i have a necromancer with an army of everything we have slain in the past (or at least the most nasty critters) following the party The spell does have a limit of how many undead you can control at a time built in. If your PC's have an army of everything they've ever slain following them, they should be extremely frightened. As for the balance aspect of the component, I don't think it is more important to focus on 25 gp per HD than onyx. Heck, by the DMG's guidelines, you can fish up an onyx of that value in just about any town. If you are being a bit more focused on the reasonability of acquiring particular components from particular locations, you might just want to make it gemstones in general instead of just onyx.
robinscw 07-26-05, 05:48 AM	Of course it's a joke Yawg. DM's have a responsibility to their players and vice versa, it's what makes the world go round. Well, that and cheetos, but seriously, I'm just saying that DM's, while responsible to their players, can easily say that onyx worth 25 gp is always available and in the same game create a shortage if they see fit. So why fret about it? Obviously the dm can fix this problem without going into size, cut, clarity, etc. I really am sorry though, I see you posting awesome comments across these boards and wouldn't want to anger phyrexia.
green_yawgmoth 07-26-05, 01:43 PM	Of course it's a joke Yawg. DM's have a responsibility to their players and vice versa, it's what makes the world go round. Well, that and cheetos, but seriously, I'm just saying that DM's, while responsible to their players, can easily say that onyx worth 25 gp is always available and in the same game create a shortage if they see fit. So why fret about it? Obviously the dm can fix this problem without going into size, cut, clarity, etc. I really am sorry though, I see you posting awesome comments across these boards and wouldn't want to anger phyrexia. No harm done. :) I was hoping it's a joke, but given what I've read in "what's a player to do", I've seen worse. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif