Animate Dead Over Powered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animate Dead Over Powered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SlimisFast
03-16-05, 12:59 AM At level 5 I could animate up to 20hd useing Desecrate? What if my party fights a young dragon or a few trolls? Bam! I have 20hd of meat shield following me around. Im sure my DM would give me negatives if i tried to go into town, but since we're entering his remake of the Temple of Elemental Evil, I don't think we will be seeing many towns for a while. Am I overlooking something or is this a really powerful spell for my 5th level cleric?
green_yawgmoth
03-16-05, 02:07 AM Well, 20 HD of undead, assuming you use normal medium sized bodies, you've just set up 10 zombies of meat shield to be blasted by said dragon's breath in the first round. And if you have one 20HD zombie, it's just a slow ass cohort that follows simple orders.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
runestar
03-16-05, 02:59 AM How is it you are able to control more undead than your own HD?
PhaedrusXY
03-16-05, 03:38 AM How is it you are able to control more undead than your own HD?This is what I use as a guideline, but I don't remember seeing any actual limit stated on the max HD for an individual creature controlled via Animate Dead in the rules.

Also, zombies are usually not as good as skeletons, in my experience. The best things to animate are high HD creatures with alot of attacks, or very damaging attacks. Hydra skeletons are... really nasty. Zombie dragons are very good, if you Awaken them via Awaken Undead and give them all the feats to make them better at making "strafing" attacks (Flyby Attack, Wingover, etc).
Trask
03-16-05, 03:39 AM With Animate Dead (3.5), you can control 4 HD/caster level worth of undead. And you can only create undead with twice your caster level. So you could have two 10 HD zombies following you around.

So, basically, you could have two 10 HD skeletons (CR 5 each) undead your control or two 10 HD zombies (CR 3 each). Or mayve four 5 HD skeletons (CR ) or four 5 HD zombies (CR 1-2)

Also remember that you have to use a gem worth 25gp/hd of each creature you're raising each time you cast the spell. So 20 HD = 500gp each time you cast this sucker. And since these undead probably aren't going to last long, I guess this could add up quickly.

So Animate Dead has its uses (meat shields)... just don't expect them to last long vs. area attacks.

Edit: Duh, sorry...upon review, I guess it seems you can create a single 20 HD skeleton or zombie? A 20 HD skeleton is CR 8 and if created within this desecrated area (with the permanent deity fixture) has 175 HP? Or am I reading that wrong?

Of course, good luck finding a 20 HD creature to raise at 5th level. :) I guess the limiting factor is being able to find creatures of high enough level to raise.
PhaedrusXY
03-16-05, 03:41 AM And you can only create undead with twice your caster level. So you could have two 10 HD zombies following you around.He said he was animating them within a desecrated area... From Animate Dead: you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)
Lassar
03-16-05, 05:52 AM Hej everyone,

I would like to add (as a passionate necromancer) that what really sucks, is that you have to give orders to your undead, what counts as a standard action...that means loosing one opportunity to cast a spell, a choice I usually don't like to make...

It is getting more interesting with Create Undead and so one...working on a spectre at the moment... :D
IronGolem
03-16-05, 07:17 AM My Necromaner is working on Lichdom first, then I will be concentrating all my time on creating a Night Walker. These are excellent constructs for the above average Necromancer.

IronGolem
SlimisFast
03-16-05, 06:21 PM What are the other Spells, Feats, and Prestige Classes I can use to play around with this type of ability. My Cleric has the two turning feats, an open feat I haven't chosen yet, Air and Fire Domains, and a Charisma of 18 :D. I could have an army of Animated and Turned monsters follwing me. Also, commanding is not a free action? I was under the impression that speaking was a free action... I think that since my DM lets summons attack without wasteing the casters turn he would probably let me do the same. Am I able to take a necromantic Prestige Class without the Undead, Evil, or Death Domains?
Bloodtide_the_Red
03-17-05, 09:59 PM The big Animate Dead limit is the power of the undead. Skeletons and Zombies are just not that great. Basicaly they can just walk around and bash things. The Mindlessness is a huge draw back too.

BT
Lassar
03-22-05, 07:03 AM Also, commanding is not a free action? I was under the impression that speaking was a free action... I think that since my DM lets summons attack without wasteing the casters turn he would probably let me do the same. ?

Yeah, I really don't like it...but I am pretty sure, that I am right on this. Speaking is a free action but Commanding is not. It is a standard action.
I don't have my books with me to prove it, and you can be sure, I would be more than pleased if you prove me wrong on this!
D-Dus
03-22-05, 07:22 AM Yeah, I really don't like it...but I am pretty sure, that I am right on this. Speaking is a free action but Commanding is not. It is a standard action.
I don't have my books with me to prove it, and you can be sure, I would be more than pleased if you prove me wrong on this!
Directly from the PHB:
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Some DM's may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can't speak while flat-footed (and thus can't warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action: to communicate more information than that, your DM might require that you take a move action or even full-round action.
Nowhere does it say that commanding a creature is concidered to be different from this rule. And saying "Fido: Attack" doesn't seem to exceed the few sentences mentioned ;)
Also, the spell Animate Dead says:
....that follow your spoken command.
This indicates that indeed all you need to do is say "Fido: attack". I would say this is no different from speaking a few sentences. Therfore it is a free action.
Radagast
03-22-05, 12:23 PM The confusion may result from how using command words to activate an item is not a free action, such as using a wand, turning on a burning sword, etc. But, since this is not a command word, I guess it would be a free action.
tiercel
03-22-05, 05:22 PM Commanding is an interesting question. I can see why people would interpret it as a standard action; after all, if you command undead by virtue of having rebuked them, issuing them mental commands is a standard action. This does make it seem reasonable to ask, "why would it be easier to issue verbal commands than mental ones?" (Of course, we are dealing with magic here, so the rules of logic may not apply ;) )

Getting back to whether the spell is overpowered: as has been pointed out, good luck getting a 20HD corpse at 5th level. One could imagine making 10 HD skeletons though, which are fairly substantial. At 500gp each for something which is likely to bite it after several significant combats (unless you are at least as generous with your inflict spells on your skeles as would you be with cures for your presumably-less-dead party members), that's not an insignificant investment.

Still, undead are generally a bit powerful for their CR, due to the mitigating factor of clerics. In melee, they are typically nastier than other beasts of their CR because a single die roll and they can be cowering or fleeing (or even destroyed/commanded). If your DM feels it is a bit powerful, expect clerics to start popping up in the enemy ranks.

And, of course, you actually need that material component in black onyx - so you'll need to resupply at a major city, and unless you are going to a city the scale of Greyhawk or Waterdeep or something, they may not have arbitrarily large amounts of black onyx. (Even then, there may be controls about selling black onyx in bulk, since presumably the Powers that Be know that what black onyx in bulk is used for.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SlimisFast 03-16-05, 12:59 AM	At level 5 I could animate up to 20hd useing Desecrate? What if my party fights a young dragon or a few trolls? Bam! I have 20hd of meat shield following me around. Im sure my DM would give me negatives if i tried to go into town, but since we're entering his remake of the Temple of Elemental Evil, I don't think we will be seeing many towns for a while. Am I overlooking something or is this a really powerful spell for my 5th level cleric?
green_yawgmoth 03-16-05, 02:07 AM	Well, 20 HD of undead, assuming you use normal medium sized bodies, you've just set up 10 zombies of meat shield to be blasted by said dragon's breath in the first round. And if you have one 20HD zombie, it's just a slow ass cohort that follows simple orders. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
runestar 03-16-05, 02:59 AM	How is it you are able to control more undead than your own HD?
PhaedrusXY 03-16-05, 03:38 AM	How is it you are able to control more undead than your own HD?This is what I use as a guideline, but I don't remember seeing any actual limit stated on the max HD for an individual creature controlled via Animate Dead in the rules. Also, zombies are usually not as good as skeletons, in my experience. The best things to animate are high HD creatures with alot of attacks, or very damaging attacks. Hydra skeletons are... really nasty. Zombie dragons are very good, if you Awaken them via Awaken Undead and give them all the feats to make them better at making "strafing" attacks (Flyby Attack, Wingover, etc).
Trask 03-16-05, 03:39 AM	With Animate Dead (3.5), you can control 4 HD/caster level worth of undead. And you can only create undead with twice your caster level. So you could have two 10 HD zombies following you around. So, basically, you could have two 10 HD skeletons (CR 5 each) undead your control or two 10 HD zombies (CR 3 each). Or mayve four 5 HD skeletons (CR ) or four 5 HD zombies (CR 1-2) Also remember that you have to use a gem worth 25gp/hd of each creature you're raising each time you cast the spell. So 20 HD = 500gp each time you cast this sucker. And since these undead probably aren't going to last long, I guess this could add up quickly. So Animate Dead has its uses (meat shields)... just don't expect them to last long vs. area attacks. Edit: Duh, sorry...upon review, I guess it seems you can create a single 20 HD skeleton or zombie? A 20 HD skeleton is CR 8 and if created within this desecrated area (with the permanent deity fixture) has 175 HP? Or am I reading that wrong? Of course, good luck finding a 20 HD creature to raise at 5th level. :) I guess the limiting factor is being able to find creatures of high enough level to raise.
PhaedrusXY 03-16-05, 03:41 AM	And you can only create undead with twice your caster level. So you could have two 10 HD zombies following you around.He said he was animating them within a desecrated area... From Animate Dead: you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)
Lassar 03-16-05, 05:52 AM	Hej everyone, I would like to add (as a passionate necromancer) that what really sucks, is that you have to give orders to your undead, what counts as a standard action...that means loosing one opportunity to cast a spell, a choice I usually don't like to make... It is getting more interesting with Create Undead and so one...working on a spectre at the moment... :D
IronGolem 03-16-05, 07:17 AM	My Necromaner is working on Lichdom first, then I will be concentrating all my time on creating a Night Walker. These are excellent constructs for the above average Necromancer. IronGolem
SlimisFast 03-16-05, 06:21 PM	What are the other Spells, Feats, and Prestige Classes I can use to play around with this type of ability. My Cleric has the two turning feats, an open feat I haven't chosen yet, Air and Fire Domains, and a Charisma of 18 :D. I could have an army of Animated and Turned monsters follwing me. Also, commanding is not a free action? I was under the impression that speaking was a free action... I think that since my DM lets summons attack without wasteing the casters turn he would probably let me do the same. Am I able to take a necromantic Prestige Class without the Undead, Evil, or Death Domains?
Bloodtide_the_Red 03-17-05, 09:59 PM	The big Animate Dead limit is the power of the undead. Skeletons and Zombies are just not that great. Basicaly they can just walk around and bash things. The Mindlessness is a huge draw back too. BT
Lassar 03-22-05, 07:03 AM	Also, commanding is not a free action? I was under the impression that speaking was a free action... I think that since my DM lets summons attack without wasteing the casters turn he would probably let me do the same. ? Yeah, I really don't like it...but I am pretty sure, that I am right on this. Speaking is a free action but Commanding is not. It is a standard action. I don't have my books with me to prove it, and you can be sure, I would be more than pleased if you prove me wrong on this!
D-Dus 03-22-05, 07:22 AM	Yeah, I really don't like it...but I am pretty sure, that I am right on this. Speaking is a free action but Commanding is not. It is a standard action. I don't have my books with me to prove it, and you can be sure, I would be more than pleased if you prove me wrong on this! Directly from the PHB: In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Some DM's may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can't speak while flat-footed (and thus can't warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action: to communicate more information than that, your DM might require that you take a move action or even full-round action. Nowhere does it say that commanding a creature is concidered to be different from this rule. And saying "Fido: Attack" doesn't seem to exceed the few sentences mentioned ;) Also, the spell Animate Dead says: ....that follow your spoken command. This indicates that indeed all you need to do is say "Fido: attack". I would say this is no different from speaking a few sentences. Therfore it is a free action.
Radagast 03-22-05, 12:23 PM	The confusion may result from how using command words to activate an item is not a free action, such as using a wand, turning on a burning sword, etc. But, since this is not a command word, I guess it would be a free action.
tiercel 03-22-05, 05:22 PM	Commanding is an interesting question. I can see why people would interpret it as a standard action; after all, if you command undead by virtue of having rebuked them, issuing them mental commands is a standard action. This does make it seem reasonable to ask, "why would it be easier to issue verbal commands than mental ones?" (Of course, we are dealing with magic here, so the rules of logic may not apply ;) ) Getting back to whether the spell is overpowered: as has been pointed out, good luck getting a 20HD corpse at 5th level. One could imagine making 10 HD skeletons though, which are fairly substantial. At 500gp each for something which is likely to bite it after several significant combats (unless you are at least as generous with your inflict spells on your skeles as would you be with cures for your presumably-less-dead party members), that's not an insignificant investment. Still, undead are generally a bit powerful for their CR, due to the mitigating factor of clerics. In melee, they are typically nastier than other beasts of their CR because a single die roll and they can be cowering or fleeing (or even destroyed/commanded). If your DM feels it is a bit powerful, expect clerics to start popping up in the enemy ranks. And, of course, you actually need that material component in black onyx - so you'll need to resupply at a major city, and unless you are going to a city the scale of Greyhawk or Waterdeep or something, they may not have arbitrarily large amounts of black onyx. (Even then, there may be controls about selling black onyx in bulk, since presumably the Powers that Be know that what black onyx in bulk is used for.)