Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JooceBocks 01-20-08, 12:58 PM	This thread has apparently been resolved. The text mentioned here is not present in the newer releases of the 3.5 PHB. Evidence presented in this thread seems to indicate that the passage was intentionally removed, but not added to the errata. Unless you're just curious about the discussion that took place, you can go ahead and just stop reading here as the issue has been almost certainly resolved. It appears to me that every player I have come across (either online or in actual play) has a misinterpretation of the spell Animate Dead. The Core 3.5 MM provides us with 2 methods of creating a Skeleton/Zombie. These options include: A) Adding the respective template to an already existing creature. B) Using Chapter 5: Making Monsters (primarily Table 5-1: Creature Size, Ability Scores, and Damage), along with the respectively used template, to create the summoned undead based on size. -Edit: I'm not going to try to cover up my mistake in this but I actually used Chapter 4 (much more viable chapter for summoners, since they will want to know the benefits when enhancing their monsters) to make them, chapter 5 was in the end only used to compare to guidelines when completed. Animate Dead, on page 198-199 of the Core PHB, explicitly states that "The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size, not on what abilities the creature may have had while alive." It seems to me that players for some reason choose to ignore this sentence, despite being mentioned in the spell description TWICE (it is restated for zombies). This sentence clearly indicates the use of method B above, NOT the method A that everyone seems to be using. If you want to save the extra ten minutes required to create the undead yourself then I believe there is always the option of using the Skeleton/Zombie section from the 3rd Edition Core MM. I believe this book had a chart for Skeletons and Zombies based on size. I do not feel like obtaining this book, making the 3.5 undead, and then comparing, so they may be slightly weaker/stronger in the 3rd Edition MM. I would assume the difference, if any, would be negligible. If anyone feels like making and comparing, then please post the results. Now if there is an errata changing the use of this spell or removing that important sentence, then please point me in its direction as I would like to see it. Otherwise, discuss how widely used/misused this spell is. -Edit: I added the word used in front of the word misused. I forgot to when originally typed this passage. I like to leave things open for discussion and forgot to use both words.
Seeker95 01-20-08, 05:07 PM	What you have identified is the primary difference between players and grabbers. The grabber selectively ignores what is written, applies loopholes (written, implied, or imaginary), and otherwise takes benefits without risks or consequences. The player, on the other hand, reads what is there, applies the spirit and intent of the rules, and interprets the vague rule in a manner that could apply to both DM and PC equally.
Suspect_Unusual 01-20-08, 05:35 PM	It appears to me that every player I have come across (either online or in actual play) has a misinterpretation of the spell Animate Dead. The Core 3.5 MM provides us with 2 methods of creating a Skeleton/Zombie. These options include: A) Adding the respective template to an already existing creature. B) Using Chapter 5: Making Monsters (primarily Table 5-1: Creature Size, Ability Scores, and Damage), along with the respectively used template, to create the summoned undead based on size. This is true, though the second method isn't only not mentioned in the Skeleton and Zombie entry in the MM, it's also incomplete - said table gives a RANGE of scores for creatures in that category, not a single score on which you can apply the template. Animate Dead, on page 189-199 of the Core PHB, explicitly states that "The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size, not on what abilities the creature may have had while alive." It seems to me that players for some reason choose to ignore this sentence, despite being mentioned in the spell description TWICE (it is restated for zombies). This sentence clearly indicates the use of method B above, NOT the method A that everyone seems to be using. It's actually 198-9, but true, it does say that. It doesn't say that, interestingly enough, in the SRD - that line is excised entirely, and references to zombies and skeletons links to the zombie and skeleton entries. This, in and of itself, is not indicative that said text is merely flavor-text - I don't believe the SRD has all the Chapter 5 information, including the table you mentioned. If you want to save the extra ten minutes required to create the undead yourself then I believe there is always the option of using the Skeleton/Zombie section from the 3rd Edition Core MM. I believe this book had a chart for Skeletons and Zombies based on size. I do not feel like obtaining this book, making the 3.5 undead, and then comparing, so they may be slightly weaker/stronger in the 3rd Edition MM. I would assume the difference, if any, would be negligible. If anyone feels like making and comparing, then please post the results. Now it sounds like keeping that text in the 3.5 edition PHB is a mistake, an oversight - A core necromancy spell like Animate Dead shouldn't force either DM or Players to create their own table and their own statistics (since, like I said, the table you referenced doesn't have a single set of stats, but a RANGE of stats. In fact, in reference to the table, the MM text states "these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules." Now if there is an errata changing the use of this spell or removing that important sentence, then please point me in its direction as I would like to see it. Otherwise, discuss how widely misused this spell is. Eratta would make things a lot easier, in either the MM or the PHB - without it, we're left with confusion as to what the stats should actually be, whether one should trust the MM that zombies and skeletons are aquired templates, or whether we should trust the PHB in it's reference to a table that was excised in the 3.5 MM. What you have identified is the primary difference between players and grabbers. The grabber selectively ignores what is written, applies loopholes (written, implied, or imaginary), and otherwise takes benefits without risks or consequences. The player, on the other hand, reads what is there, applies the spirit and intent of the rules, and interprets the vague rule in a manner that could apply to both DM and PC equally. Except I don't think JooceBocks has applied the spirit and intent of the rules - if skeletons and zombies from Animate Dead were intended to have stats based on size and shape, not on their base creature, there really should be a table, either in the 3.5 MM or next to Animate Dead in the PHB, detailing those stats - it seems nonsensical to me that they'd ignore the needs of such a staple spell as Animate Dead in a section on creatures that are invariably (in the Core books, at least) created through that spell. I'm not saying his reading of the PHB is wrong - it certainly is a section of the spell I've glossed over before and forgotten, and that text was honestly new to me. I'm saying that the probability is that the text is a hold-over from the edition change they haven't noticed yet, or haven't felt the necessity to change through eratta yet. Intent is impossible to determine, especially by someone like me who hasn't researched much at all, but it seems to ME that the intent is mixed, and that the intent of the writers was never to force the DM to make up his own statistics for the effects of the spell.
JulesCARV 01-20-08, 06:07 PM	I'm looking at page 198-199 of the PHB, and my version does not contain any such text. I read Animate Dead about three times, and I couldn't find it.
Grod_The_Giant 01-20-08, 06:42 PM	There probably was an error somewhere, but in liu of official ruling, just have whoever uses the spell make up his own table.
Suspect_Unusual 01-20-08, 06:56 PM	I'm looking at page 198-199 of the PHB, and my version does not contain any such text. I read Animate Dead about three times, and I couldn't find it. It's at the end of the spell, where it has a small paragraph on Skeletons, then a small paragraph on Zombies. In the SRD, it says this: ...If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit. Skeletons A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. Zombies A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy. The text he refers too is in these sections.
JulesCARV 01-20-08, 07:52 PM	I looked, and my PHB still doesn't have any such text. The Skeletons paragraph reads "A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones, so creating a skeleton from a purple worm, for example, is not possible. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones." The Zombies paragraph reads "A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy, so a dead gelatinous cube, for example, cannot be animated as a zombie." My PHB has nothing about the creature being based on size rather than application of the template. Maybe it's a difference between the special printing of October 2004 and the original prinitng of July 2003? I'm not sure, but it definitely isn't there. Anyone else also have a PHB without the stipulation that animate dead is based on size rather than the previous creature?
JooceBocks 01-20-08, 08:09 PM	This is true, though the second method isn't only not mentioned in the Skeleton and Zombie entry in the MM, it's also incomplete - said table gives a RANGE of scores for creatures in that category, not a single score on which you can apply the template. "Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses."-SRD (Also page 290 of MM) It's actually 198-9, but true, it does say that. It doesn't say that,interestingly enough, in the SRD - that line is excised entirely, and references to zombies and skeletons links to the zombie and skeleton entries. My bad, typo on the page numbers. I do not trust the RSD ruling on the spell as much as the Core Rulebook. Most DMs would most likely also prefer to stick with the Core Rulebooks (unless indicated otherwise by Errata). A lot of text seems to have been removed to shorten and simplify the explanation of this spell, and this indicated text could have been overlooked there as well. This, in and of itself, is not indicative that said text is merely flavor-text - I don't believe the SRD has all the Chapter 5 information, including the table you mentioned. All of the information from Chapter 5 does not seem to be in the SRD. I'll start looking for comments concerning this from the SRD and maybe a few generic DnD rules then. "Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses."-SRD (Also page 290 of MM) "A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1."-SRD (or page 226 MM) Stats for Skeleton would then only vary to Str 10-11, Dex 12-13, Con 0, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 1. (Since Undead tend to naturally have higher Dex/Str for their size (page 297 MM; did not see in SRD), Str 11 and Dex 13 seems appropriate; not game breaking either way) Under Improving Monsters in the SRD (or table 4-2, page 291 of MM) page is a list how to change these statistics based on size increases/decreases.(Such as large would get +8 Str , -2 Dex (these bonuses/penalties to Str/Dex with each increase conveniently keeps the skeleton within the guidelines indicated on Table 5-1 of MM; coincidence?), +4 Con (listed but ignored since undead), +2 Natural Armor, and -1 AC.) Nothing appears to be stated about HD in the spell, so it is safe to assume it maintains base creatures number of HD (especially since the spell is so HD intensive). Since they always have D12 then DM can either have the player spend a few seconds on each casting of the spell to roll the HP or just use the DnD standard of averages for HP of 6.5/level. Now add the rest of the Skeleton information and you should be done. That took about as long to do as it would to add the template to an already existing monster (All of this information is listed in both the SRD AND MM). Same process is followed for zombies except inherent zombie bonuses applied in place of skeleton. Now it sounds like keeping that text in the 3.5 edition PHB is a mistake, an oversight - A core necromancy spell like Animate Dead shouldn't force either DM or Players to create their own table and their own statistics (since, like I said, the table you referenced doesn't have a single set of stats, but a RANGE of stats. In fact, in reference to the table, the MM text states "these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules." Either way the player is forced to make their own table, since they have to rewrite the monster with the added template. The creation of stats is not really an issue since almost all of them are indicated by the zombie/skeleton passage, and the rest of them are stated to be 10 or 11 (SRD or 290 of MM), which are then modified by race, template, and size modifiers. I may have jumped the gun on using chapter 5, since all of my current information in this response is from the SRD and Chapter 4 of the MM, not chapter 5. However, in regards to Table 5-1, it states that, "These numbers are typical values for a creature of the indicated size. The creature's type influences which end of the given range the monster falls into". It then lists different types and which end of the varying stats they are on (if none is listed regarding a stat then average is almost certainly safely assumed). It is in fact stated though that, "These are guidelines, not hard-and-fast requirements." However, even using straight-stated entries that are listed in both the SRD and MM, the skeletons I created perfectly adhere to the guidelines in Table 5-1 (Again, coincidence?). As a side not, this is a chapter about making monsters; of course they are going to inform the DM that they do not have to abide by the guidelines of the chart. Players, however, should adhere to guidelines (If the players own monsters are exceeding the guidelines of the MM then they are clearly overpowered for their indicated level). In comparison, if the DM creates creatures above these guidelines with no debuff instated, then these creatures would be overpowered for the indicated CR. While this is perfectly legal for the DM, the players would most likely notice a problem. Eratta would make things a lot easier, in either the MM or the PHB - without it, we're left with confusion as to what the stats should actually be, whether one should trust the MM that zombies and skeletons are aquired templates, or whether we should trust the PHB in it's reference to a table that was excised in the 3.5 MM. An Errata concerning this issue would be nice. However, with my stated interpretation and examples, you can clearly follow the PHB rules by using either the MM or RSD. Unless such an Errata is stated it seems to make more sense to follow the rules that can be instated in both. Except I don't think JooceBocks has applied the spirit and intent of the rules - if skeletons and zombies from Animate Dead were intended to have stats based on size and shape, not on their base creature, there really should be a table, either in the 3.5 MM or next to Animate Dead in the PHB, detailing those stats - it seems nonsensical to me that they'd ignore the needs of such a staple spell as Animate Dead in a section on creatures that are invariably (in the Core books, at least) created through that spell. I agree that a chart is most definitely in order; however, without the Skeleton/Zombie by size chart, using chapters 4 and 5 of the MM (or the RSD), I was able to create the skeletons following strict rulings (not just Table 5-1, which can be ruled as too variable; although I did compare to Table 5-1 and the creature adhered to every limitation on it (Again, coincidence?(Getting tired of seeing that yet?))), in maybe a tops of ten minutes. I'm not saying his reading of the PHB is wrong - it certainly is a section of the spell I've glossed over before and forgotten, and that text was honestly new to me. Not much discussion needed here, this is pretty much a response every player gives regarding this spell, and with good reason. I'm saying that the probability is that the text is a hold-over from the edition change they haven't noticed yet, or haven't felt the necessity to change through eratta yet. Intent is impossible to determine, especially by someone like me who hasn't researched much at all, but it seems to ME that the intent is mixed, and that the intent of the writers was never to force the DM to make up his own statistics for the effects of the spell. I'm not 100% sure, since I do not have a 3rd Edition MM, but it would seem odd for this to be a hold-over from 3rd Edition, seeing as how Skeletons and Zombies were determined ONLY by size. It was not a template yet and would have had the same effect with or without the text in question. In fact, it could be viewed as slightly more confusing if it was in there. However, either way the DM does not need to make up his own statistics; the statistics can be figured out with the RSD and/or Core MM (Should be responsibility of player though to figure out these statistics; DM should double-check the math and information the player used to prevent late noticed errors). I believe I have covered everything I needed to cover for now. Lets keep this discussion going.
JooceBocks 01-20-08, 08:14 PM	I looked, and my PHB still doesn't have any such text. The Skeletons paragraph reads "A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones, so creating a skeleton from a purple worm, for example, is not possible. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones." The Zombies paragraph reads "A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy, so a dead gelatinous cube, for example, cannot be animated as a zombie." My PHB has nothing about the creature being based on size rather than application of the template. Maybe it's a difference between the special printing of October 2004 and the original prinitng of July 2003? I'm not sure, but it definitely isn't there. Anyone else also have a PHB without the stipulation that animate dead is based on size rather than the previous creature? Are you sure you have a 3.5 PHB and not a 3rd Edition? (I am not sure on release dates so do not quote me on sounding stupid if 3rd Edition was prior to your indicated dates) It seems to me that Wizards would be asking for trouble to release same editions of a Core Rulebook with varying explanations. It also makes sense to me that the 3rd Edition PHB wouldn't have this passage, seeing as how Zombies/Skeletons were decided by size only, not existing as a Template.
Seeker95 01-20-08, 08:29 PM	Anyone else also have a PHB without the stipulation that animate dead is based on size rather than the previous creature?Mine is First Printing July 2003. It contains the text quoted in this thread, stated in both the skeletons paragraph and the zombies paragraph.
jaelis 01-20-08, 09:11 PM	Mine is also a first printing, and has the text. But it is a little confusing: it has the line in question and then says "The Monster Manual has game statistics for skeletons/zombies." That suggests to me that you should use the stats that the MM gives, which of course are obtained by applying the template to the original creature. If you were supposed to make up "new" creature stats using the monster creation guidelines, then I think they would have said it differently. Using the template rules also makes more sense. Otherwise, what would stop me from making a 10 HD zombie out of a human commoner? What kind of attacks would it have? Would it have the regular zombie qualities, like DR and single actions only? (Because if I'm not using the template rules, why should those abilities apply?) That's how it seems to me at least... YMMV. I guess I just disagree with the OPs assertion that option (B) is a valid way to create a skeleton or zombie. Anyway, if JulesCARV is right and the text was altered in later printings, then I think we can take that as an implicit errata. If not, then it's a DM call as usual. But I certainly wouldn't call someone a munchkin for applying the template to the creature type of the corpse.
JooceBocks 01-20-08, 09:12 PM	My PHB is also First Printing: July 2003 and has the text.
JooceBocks 01-20-08, 09:54 PM	Mine is also a first printing, and has the text. But it is a little confusing: it has the line in question and then says "The Monster Manual has game statistics for skeletons/zombies." That suggests to me that you should use the stats that the MM gives, which of course are obtained by applying the template to the original creature. If you were supposed to make up "new" creature stats using the monster creation guidelines, then I think they would have said it differently. Using the template rules also makes more sense. Otherwise, what would stop me from making a 10 HD zombie out of a human commoner? What kind of attacks would it have? Would it have the regular zombie qualities, like DR and single actions only? (Because if I'm not using the template rules, why should those abilities apply?) That's how it seems to me at least... YMMV. I guess I just disagree with the OPs assertion that option (B) is a valid way to create a skeleton or zombie. Since HD is not indicated by the spell description it becomes directly implied that you would use the base HD of the creature (which all become D12 as a result of being Undead). Also, creating a zombie/skeleton indicates adding the templates. Any creature with the skeleton template is a skeleton, anything with the zombie template is a zombie. There is no other way to make a zombie/skeleton without using the templates (unless a DM for some reason creates a house rule variation). In my third posting of this thread I indicate how to determine the strength of such a creature based on size. The only stats that can possibly vary while using direct instructions from the RAW rules from the SRD or MM is a Skeleton's 10-11 base STR/12-13 DEX and the Zombie's base 12-13 STR/8-9 DEX (Due to racial adjustments). Anyway, if JulesCARV is right and the text was altered in later printings, then I think we can take that as an implicit errata. If not, then it's a DM call as usual. But I certainly wouldn't call someone a munchkin for applying the template to the creature type of the corpse. It is very unlikely that Wizards would ever release 2 versions of one edition of Core Rulebooks without providing errata. We really need more feedback from people with different versions of this book to check for differentiations.
jaelis 01-20-08, 10:57 PM	So, just to be clear, if you cast animate dead on the corpse of a wyvern and created a zombie, what, in your opinion would you end up with? What would be it's ability scores? What would it's speed be, and would it have a fly speed? Would it have talon attacks? What would it's AC be?
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 09:06 AM	So, just to be clear, if you cast animate dead on the corpse of a wyvern and created a zombie, what, in your opinion would you end up with? What would be it's ability scores? What would it's speed be, and would it have a fly speed? Would it have talon attacks? What would it's AC be? Well, according to the PHB, Animate Dead summons a Skeleton/Zombie in accordance to the size and HD of the corpse, ignoring special abilities and statistics it had while alive. I made this Skeleton/Zombie (I made it both to show how easy it is) using the written rules that can be found in either the SRD or Core 3.5 MM. Skeleton Large Skeleton (Wyvern is a Large Corpse) Hit Dice: Skeleton 7d12 (45 hp) Zombie 14d12 (91) (Wyvern has 7 HD, HD are doubled for Zombie; all are D12 in accordance to Skeleton/Zombie attributes) Initiative: Skeleton +4 (Improved Initiative; +0 DEX); Zombie -2 (-2 DEX) Armor Class: Skeleton 14 (Base 10+2 Natural Skeleton Bonus+2 Large AC) Zombie 13 (Base 10+3 Natural Zombie Bonus+2 Large Bonus-2 DEX) You can equip armor onto Skeletons/Zombies to increase. Speed: Land 40 ft. (Base land speed for Large Biped) Fly None Base Attack: 3 Skeleton; 7 Zombie (Skeletons/Zombies have BAB of ˝ their HD) Attack: You should be able to calculate this Full Attack: You should be able to calculate this as well Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (Standards for large unless equipped weapon) Special Attacks: None are retained Natural Attacks: Claws (For Skeletons; 1d6 Large); Slam (Zombie; 1d8 Large) Saves: Skeleton Fort 2 (Base 1/3 HD), Ref 2 (Base 1/3 HD), Will 5 (Base1/2 HD+2) Zombie Fort 4 (Base 1/3 HD), Ref 2 (Base 1/3 HD, -2 DEX), Will 9 (Base 1/2 HD+2) Abilities: Skeleton STR 19 (11 base, +8 Large), DEX 11 (11 base, +2 Skeleton, -2 Large), CON -, INT -, WIS 10, CHA 1 Zombie STR 21 (11 base, +2 Zombie, +8 Large), DEX 7 (base 11, -2 Zombie, -2 Size), CON -, INT -, WIS 10, CHA 1 (CON, INT, WIS, CHA are indicated for Skeletons/Zombies as direct values) Skills: None Feats: Improved Initiative (Skeleton); Toughness (Zombie) Now add on the Single Actions Only quality of Zombies, or the Immunity to Cold and Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning quality of Skeletons, along with the Undead Type, and you’re done.
Nephlite 01-21-08, 09:21 AM	However, if cast on a Babou Skeleton: you keep sneak attaxk since it is a extraordinary special attack which is what monster manual says they keep. Drawback is Babou must be called or found on home plane since summon monsters don't leave bodies.
Keenath 01-21-08, 09:28 AM	Now it sounds like keeping that text in the 3.5 edition PHB is a mistake, an oversight That's my understanding -- that line was a copy/paste error from the 3rd edition book (where skels and zoms were indeed statted based only on size). Animate Dead is supposed to get you Zombie or Skeleton templated creatures.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 10:14 AM	However, if cast on a Babou Skeleton: you keep sneak attaxk since it is a extraordinary special attack which is what monster manual says they keep. Drawback is Babou must be called or found on home plane since summon monsters don't leave bodies. The MM does instruct that they maintain certain special abilities of the base creature; however, this is overwritten as the spell indicates otherwise in its spell description when it mentions, "they do not depend on what abilities the creature may have had while alive." (Yes, a spell is allowed to indicate exceptions in their descriptions that overrides the original standard).
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 10:30 AM	That's my understanding -- that line was a copy/paste error from the 3rd edition book (where skels and zoms were indeed statted based only on size). Animate Dead is supposed to get you Zombie or Skeleton templated creatures. I'd first like a confirmation that the 3rd Edition book even has this line of text in it as I do not have a 3rd Edition PHB. Seems like an unnecessary line of text since it had nothing to imply to since skeletons/zombies could only be indicated by size (since it offered no actual statistics for Skeleton/Zombie construction). Unless they release an Errata then it seems that players are just ignoring this sentence in order to obtain stronger undead. The MM does in fact have statistics for Skeletons and Zombies as indicated by the spell. The fact of the matter also remains that the ruling in the PHB CAN be followed using the statistics the MM offers, it just takes a few minutes ahead of time to write down the information (Assuming you want the convenience of it all being in front of you during gameplay). This would actually cause less in game time to be spent on everyone waiting for the caster to get the information of the monster (Which the DM shouldn't have to share anyway) and apply the template to it upon each casting. It also causes the spell to function exactly as it did in 3rd Edition (which was already good for its level) aside from the fact that the HD of the creatures can now vary. The way it is being played now simply seems like an overpowered method by writing that statement out (Especially for a 3rd Level Cleric spell).
CelineSSauve 01-21-08, 11:51 AM	I have to disagree with the build because if this is accurate Speed: Land 40 ft. (Base land speed for Large Biped) Fly None The SRD's states that skeletons which could magical fly when alive, and zombies which could fly when alive, retain those abilities. Why bother converting something with wings if they lose the ability to fly as your build stated? Abilities: Skeleton STR 19 (11 base, +8 Large), DEX 11 (11 base, +2 Skeleton, -2 Large), CON -, INT -, WIS 10, CHA 1 Zombie STR 21 (11 base, +2 Zombie, +8 Large), DEX 7 (base 11, -2 Zombie, -2 Size), CON -, INT -, WIS 10, CHA 1 (CON, INT, WIS, CHA are indicated for Skeletons/Zombies as direct values) I agree with the Con, Int, Wis and Cha interpretations, but think the Str and Dex do depend on the base creature. Otherwise, a skeletal wolf would be the same as a skeletal human. (Both medium skeletons.)
Derkylos 01-21-08, 12:17 PM	I'd first like a confirmation that the 3rd Edition book even has this line of text in it as I do not have a 3rd Edition PHB. Seems like an unnecessary line of text since it had nothing to imply to since skeletons/zombies could only be indicated by size (since it offered no actual statistics for Skeleton/Zombie construction). Reading my PHB V 3.0 right now (yes, I play 3rd ed. probably always will (if I can get away with it >.>)), and pg 174: "Skeletons:...The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size, not what abilities the creature may have had while alive. See the Monster Manual.", same for zombies. As noted, these passages are actually irrelevant...DMs I've played with have had to house-rule things like horse skeletons.
Someone 01-21-08, 01:15 PM	And therein lies the difference. 3.0 skellies/zombies came only in sizes. 3.5 skellies/zombies are a template applied to a base creature. One is a 3.0 "large zombie", the other is a 3.5 "zombie wyvern". In the 3.5 SRD, the zombie wyvern has Str 21 Dex 10, which is +2 -2, respectively, of its stats while alive.
JulesCARV 01-21-08, 03:14 PM	Are you sure you have a 3.5 PHB and not a 3rd Edition? Yes, I'm sure, although I do find it a bit disconcerting that my PHB seems to be different from the PHB of everyone else who's posted so far.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 03:54 PM	I have to disagree with the build because if this is accurate The SRD's states that skeletons which could magical fly when alive, and zombies which could fly when alive, retain those abilities. Why bother converting something with wings if they lose the ability to fly as your build stated? It is true that the template states that these abilities can transfer over, however, the spell description states that they cannot. I said this previously and will state it again. This would be a variaton indicated by the description of the spell, therefore would not be added when creating undead through use of this spell. I agree with the Con, Int, Wis and Cha interpretations, but think the Str and Dex do depend on the base creature. Otherwise, a skeletal wolf would be the same as a skeletal human. (Both medium skeletons.) It explicitly states that the statistics of the base creature do not matter for the use of this spell. The Monster Manual and SRD both state, "Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses."-SRD (Also page 290 of MM) So while you may disagree with the values I indicated, for STR and DEX, following the rules could only cause them to be 1 less than what I gave. I chose 11 instead of 10 because it is stated in the MM that Undead tend to have naturally higher DEX and STR (made it seem fair to give them that one more).
Nephlite 01-21-08, 04:03 PM	It is true that the template states that these abilities can transfer over, however, the spell description states that they cannot. I said this previously and will state it again. This would be a variaton indicated by the description of the spell, therefore would not be added when creating undead through use of this spell. It explicitly states that the statistics of the base creature do not matter for the use of this spell. The Monster Manual and SRD both state, "Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses."-SRD (Also page 290 of MM) So while you may disagree with the values I indicated, for STR and DEX, following the rules could only cause them to be 1 less than what I gave. I chose 11 instead of 10 because it is stated in the MM that Undead tend to have naturally higher DEX and STR (made it seem fair to give them that one more). The monster manual disagees. Evidence #1: Wolf Skeleton in MM has +4 Dex compared to human. Evidence #2: It says use monster manual for game statistics in Animate Dead Description. Thus, with 2 evidences pointing to MM. One should use it.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 04:08 PM	And therein lies the difference. 3.0 skellies/zombies came only in sizes. 3.5 skellies/zombies are a template applied to a base creature. One is a 3.0 "large zombie", the other is a 3.5 "zombie wyvern". In the 3.5 SRD, the zombie wyvern has Str 21 Dex 10, which is +2 -2, respectively, of its stats while alive. What I am stating is that it is possible, and incredibly easy (just as easy as adding the template to an existing creature), to create a generic Zombie/Skeleton based on size, instead of based on an existing creature. All of the information is provided, in both MM and RDS, on how to do so. Since the spell tells you that the skeleton/zombie is based on size (instead of the statistics/abilities the creature had while alive), this is clearly the method being indicated. It also seems to me that Wizards would have created an Errata removing the statement if it was to be otherwise. It seems to me that some people want to follow some of the instructions indicated in the MM, even though the ruling of the spell indicates the use of a different method (Such as maintaining fly speed with maneuverability dropped to Clumsy for zombies is indicated for zombies; however, the spell indicates ignoring this passage by adding its own rule (not maintaining abilities the creature had while alive)). If I used a spell that summoned a Beholder, but the spell stated it does not gain the Eye Rays or Antimagic Cone abilities of a Beholder, would you still use the MM passage and say that the Beholder has has these abilities because the MM says it does?
Vegepygmy 01-21-08, 05:05 PM	Yes, I'm sure, although I do find it a bit disconcerting that my PHB seems to be different from the PHB of everyone else who's posted so far.Can you tell us whether your copy is a First Printing or later?
Nephlite 01-21-08, 05:27 PM	It seems to me that some people want to follow some of the instructions indicated in the MM, even though the ruling of the spell indicates the use of a different method (Such as maintaining fly speed with maneuverability dropped to Clumsy for zombies is indicated for zombies; however, the spell indicates ignoring this passage by adding its own rule (not maintaining abilities the creature had while alive)). If I used a spell that summoned a Beholder, but the spell stated it does not gain the Eye Rays or Antimagic Cone abilities of a Beholder, would you still use the MM passage and say that the Beholder has has these abilities because the MM says it does? Nope, erronous reasoning. You are begging the question. What the spell would have to say for it to be the same situation is. Apply this template and take away eye beam/antimagic aura. So we see the template say he keeps them. That would be the same situation, but you example wasn't. You can't compare apples to oranges, oranges are just better.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 05:47 PM	The monster manual disagees. Evidence #1: Wolf Skeleton in MM has +4 Dex compared to human. True, but this creature was created based on the abilities/statistics of the base creature (wolf). It is specified by the spell description to NOT do this. Evidence #2: It says use monster manual for game statistics in Animate Dead Description. Thus, with 2 evidences pointing to MM. One should use it. I AM using the MM for statistics. You CAN create Zombies/Skeletons based on size. All of the information I used can be found inside of the MM. Aside from the few pages specifically concerning Skeletons/Zombies, all of the examples I provided are within like 10 consecutive pages INSIDE the MM.
Nephlite 01-21-08, 05:50 PM	True, but this creature was created based on the abilities/statistics of the base creature (wolf). It is specified by the spell description to NOT do this. I AM using the MM for statistics. You CAN create Zombies/Skeletons based on size. All of the information I used can be found inside of the MM. Aside from the few pages specifically concerning Skeletons/Zombies, all of the examples I provided are within like 10 consecutive pages INSIDE the MM. So what your original post is wrong. Your players and everyone else was using it correctly. What you are saying now is you think there are two ways to animate dead: Size or the MM/spell way which is what I am arguing about.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 06:09 PM	So what your original post is wrong. Your players and everyone else was using it correctly. What you are saying now is you think there are two ways to animate dead: Size or the MM/spell way which is what I am arguing about. I am saying, and have been saying, there are two ways to create Skeletons and Zombies in the Monster Manual. The problem is that people are not using the method that is indicated in Animate Dead.
JooceBocks 01-21-08, 06:10 PM	Nope, erronous reasoning. You are begging the question. What the spell would have to say for it to be the same situation is. Apply this template and take away eye beam/antimagic aura. So we see the template say he keeps them. That would be the same situation, but you example wasn't. You can't compare apples to oranges, oranges are just better. I will agree in one sense, oranges are better than apples (peeling is an annoyance though). However, I was using my example to simplify the situation that was happening. Your example wouldn't have been simplifying it at all, it is the EXACT problem people seem to be not comprehending. It was even mentioned earlier about Sneak Attack and I covered why it is not retained. Some people seem to have not understood that so I used an example simplifying it as much as possible. The nature of my example is what is being instated in this discussion. In my example I indicated that the spell stated that the Beholder does not retain the abilities of a Beholder. This is identical to the problem statement in Animate Dead. Everybody seems to be using what the Monster Manual says about which abilities are transferred, even though the spell indicates that the abilities (Antimagic Field and Eye Rays in my example) of the creature (in my example, the Beholder) before death are not retained. All of these matters were indicated in my example, it was merely simplified.
Istaran 01-21-08, 06:29 PM	"Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses."-SRD (Also page 290 of MM) "A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1."-SRD (or page 226 MM) Stats for Skeleton would then only vary to Str 10-11, Dex 12-13, Con 0, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 1. (Since Undead tend to naturally have higher Dex/Str for their size (page 297 MM; did not see in SRD), Str 11 and Dex 13 seems appropriate; not game breaking either way) Since Skeletons and Zombies are only listed as templates, not finished creatures, their racial str/dex modifiers are those from the original race plus those from the template. In the all too common cases where the creature does not explicitly list its racial modifiers (i.e. any case that does not have a "X as characters" secion), you can determine the racial modifiers by subtracting 10 or 11 from the listed attribute scores to get an even number, which is the racial modifier. This is the same process as explained under Lycanthropes. For example, if you make a skeleton of a kobold it has racial modifiers of -4 str and +4 dex (2 from kobold, 2 from skeleton) giving it a str of 6 or 7 and a dex of 14 or 15. This is true even if the particular kobold was str 9, dex 13 as per the example monster (which uses the non-elite array, as explained in the monster entry). The skeleton of a 20 str / 8 dex human fighter 8 has 10-11 str and 12-13 dex. The skeleton of a 8 str / 18 dex human wizard 8 has 10-11 str and 12-13 dex. The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size, not on what abilities the creature may have had while alive." Further, 'abilities' is a specific term in D&D. It means strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. Flight is not an ability. Number of available attacks in a full attack is not an ability. The above explaination explains how to satisfy both the template rules and the quote from the PHB. You ignore any individual variation in the creature when creating the undead version, and instead base the ability scores on the default for the creature in question. Chapter 5 - Creating monsters is an explaination of how to create your own custom monsters that do not otherwise appear in D&D and come up with a reasonably balanced creature for any given CR. They are intentionally vague, giving fairly wide ranges of attributes, etc. They are not valid rules for making existing creatures such as zombies and skeletons: those rules are more clearly defined in the zombie and skeleton templates. They are valid 'rules' for creating your own custom zombie-like and skeleton-like creatures for your campaign. They are valid rules only for use by the DM, mod writer (in case of published mods), and in rare cases for a player in a home game creating a custom spell that creates/summons/polymorphs something into a unique creature of their own invention (subject to exceedingly careful DM review). Nothing that a PC does should -ever- reference chapter 5 of the monster manual unless a custom spell is involved.
belewda 01-21-08, 06:38 PM	There were certainly differences between first printing and later printings of the PHB. My group specifically argued for an extended period about something before realizing that we had 2 different books and we were all correct, depending on the books we had. I can't remember the exact thing we were arguing over (it's been years), so take that for what it's worth. I don't have a newer printing of the book, so I don't know what it says in this case.
Istaran 01-21-08, 06:55 PM	However, if cast on a Babou Skeleton: you keep sneak attaxk since it is a extraordinary special attack which is what monster manual says they keep. Drawback is Babou must be called or found on home plane since summon monsters don't leave bodies. I don't have my books on me, but the SRD clearly says that both skeletons and zombies lose all special attacks, and only keep extraordinary special qualities that improve thier melee or ranged attacks. I do not know, off hand, of any extraordinary special qualities that improve attacks; those traits are almost always special attacks.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-21-08, 08:49 PM	Otherwise, discuss how widely misused this spell is. 1. Its not misused. 2. How widely is the SRD used? SRD says their doing it right. SRD = (Rules + Errata) - Flavor. PHB = Rules + Typos + Bad Examples + WotC's history of not cleaning spells/builds/tables/etc. when a rule is edited during book production. I have the urge to claim the PHB is wrong...
Suspect_Unusual 01-21-08, 08:58 PM	I'm waiting for the poster whose PHB did NOT have the text that's causing Joocebocks such difficulty in believing it might be a holdover. IF it is a more recent printing, then the lack of text in the later printing overrides the text in the older printing, as newer material overwrites older material. It would also be nice to know if the 3.0 PHB has the same text, so the possibility that it is an unwitting holdover from the edition change is more likely.
Someone 01-22-08, 12:57 AM	I agree, this looks to be a holdover problem, with too much (and in this case, contradicting) text cut and paste from the 3.0 version of animate dead, which differentiates skellies/zombies by size, into the 3.5 version of said spell, which differentiates skellies/zombies by creatures.
JooceBocks 01-22-08, 04:31 PM	I am probably going to miss a lot of things I want to state right now but I am in a hurry. About the comment on abilities; I admit I forgot the direct definition of abilities as stated in the PHB. I haven't heard them called that in so long (always stats or by their respective name, such as Strength or Dex). They kind of throw a curve ball at us by using the words "statistics" and "abilities" in that statement; many people apparently did not catch this curve either or I would have been corrected sooner. This, however, raises the question to me of whether or not we keep the racial modifiers on the STR and DEX (no other abilities matter concerning this spell) abilities (like the Kobold Skeleton example). It states that the statistics for the animated creature are based on the size of the creature, not on the statistics they had while alive. Wouldn't this -2 STR qualify as a statistic of its abilities that it had while alive? If it does, don't we need to somehow know how much STR and DEX this creature has based on size as a Skeleton/Zombie, rather than what its strength will be due to this -2? Same thing for a Half-Orc Skeleton/Zombie. Does it retain its +2 strength modifier from life? Technical reasoning: These are ability statistics the creature had from life based on racial traits, not size. Logical reasoning: As a Skeleton, a Half-Orc loses all muscle, which is where the creature reaches these higher strength values. As a Zombie, while it may retain its muscles, they will be dead and decomposing, not really capable of use (aside by the will of the magic animating it). As for the PHB, it would be nice to know if (and what) variations exist in separate releases. Also, regarding chapter 5 - I did mention that I jumped the gun by saying I used chapter 5 to make my skeletons. I used chapter 4, which seems like a chapter that is seemingly more viable for a summoner to want to read. I just assumed I was using chapter 5 when I saw Table 5-1. I then mentioned that I used chapter 5 ONLY for use of making sure that the skeletons were not skyrocketing, or floored, in comparison the the MM guidelines (which is something I believe the DM should try to keep maintained concerning a players creatures to maintain relative balance). Also, regarding SRD, I only used passages from it that could also be found in the MM as well (to be sure the information matched up using either source). That is possibly all I wanted to cover for now but I will try to read more thoroughly when I have the time.
aotrscommander 01-22-08, 04:57 PM	Okay folks, Lich to the rescue. (Or something!) I have checked my copy of the 3.5 PHB (2003) and my sister's (2004) and thus can absoultely confirm that the text in question (i.e the bit about statistics being based on size) was removed from the second printing of the 3.5. I also have my sister's copy of the 3.0 PHB and can thus also confirm that the relevant text is present in that version. 3.0 Core, of course, had no other way of dealing with Animate Dead, since it did not have skeletons or zombies as a template (the later 3.0 skeleton-as-template rules were from the later Monster Mayhem articles (skeletons here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20010126a) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011027a) for zombies), but merely had them listed by size. I was using a Pale Master through 3.0 to 3.5 and noted that instead of a stock Large Skeleton you instead got a vastly more effective Troll Skeleton. (I made a quick-reference sheet for Invagrion which has the default 3.0 Medium, Large and Huge skeletons (as well as Small to Huge zombies), which I still have though I got rid of my 3.0 MM unfortunatley for this question). I was particularly chuffed with this, seeing as during the course of our adventures, I had created a couple of Troll skeletons which we applied the 3.0 skeleton template too and they had been way more effective!) So it clearly was a hold over from 3.0, a copy/paste error from 3.0, removed from the later printings because all skeletons and zombies now came from adding the template to a base creature (which was a much better, if more involved, way of doing things to my mind.) I hope that helps clear things up.
Witch 01-22-08, 05:00 PM	I think JooceBocks is reading a clearly overtly literal interpretation of the spell, whereas the intent is perfectly clear: apply the template to the creature, and you're done. You can discuss this all you want, but that's what this boils down to. Side A isn't going to be able to convince Side B, except by argueing that Side B makes no sense. Point 1 is simple: there are no rules for creating skeletons or zombies based on size at all - they were there only in 3.0. Hence, this casts a dubious light on the sentence: it seems like it was solely conceived for the 3.0 version of the spell. You may verify this in the 3.0 SRD, where the line is found as well (it is not in the 3.5 SRD.) Point 2 is simple as well: what if you want to make a naga skeleton or zombie, without referencing its own characteristics? Are you still going to give it a claw attack - it doesn't even have claws! Where'd the attack come from?
JooceBocks 01-22-08, 05:17 PM	Okay folks, Lich to the rescue. (Or something!) I have checked my copy of the 3.5 PHB (2003) and my sister's (2004) and thus can absoultely confirm that the text in question (i.e the bit about statistics being based on size) was removed from the second printing of the 3.5. I also have my sister's copy of the 3.0 PHB and can thus also confirm that the relevant text is present in that version. 3.0 Core, of course, had no other way of dealing with Animate Dead, since it did not have skeletons or zombies as a template (the later 3.0 skeleton-as-template rules were from the later Monster Mayhem articles (skeletons here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20010126a) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011027a) for zombies), but merely had them listed by size. I was using a Pale Master through 3.0 to 3.5 and noted that instead of a stock Large Skeleton you instead got a vastly more effective Troll Skeleton. (I made a quick-reference sheet for Invagrion which has the default 3.0 Medium, Large and Huge skeletons (as well as Small to Huge zombies), which I still have though I got rid of my 3.0 MM unfortunatley for this question). I was particularly chuffed with this, seeing as during the course of our adventures, I had created a couple of Troll skeletons which we applied the 3.0 skeleton template too and they had been way more effective!) So it clearly was a hold over from 3.0, a copy/paste error from 3.0, removed from the later printings because all skeletons and zombies now came from adding the template to a base creature (which was a much better, if more involved, way of doing things to my mind.) I hope that helps clear things up. Well this evidence pretty much cleared things up. They really should put information like this into Errata. While it could still be debated which book truly is accurate (since even reprints are susceptible to mistakes), evidence produced does seem to clearly indicate the removal of this passage. I still do wonder about one thing if this passage was retained. I was corrected on the definition of abilities (they should calm down on using the words "statistics" and "abilities" in the same sentence in this game :P); not much debate left in that sense. If the passage was retained, however, do you suppose that the skeletons/zombies would retain the racial STR/DEX modifiers provided to the creature while alive or would the creature just retain the base 11, with size factored in (Larger creatures getting more STR than medium creatures and so forth)?
AnonymousInternets 01-22-08, 05:19 PM	Okay folks, Lich to the rescue. (Or something!) ... I was about to say all this. I have a revised 3.5 rulebook right here, and it never mentions the clause we've been discussing. Undead animated with Animate Dead simply applies the template to the dead creature. While size does matter in some of the monster entries (natural weapon damage, natural armor), it certainly does not completely generalize skeletons and zombies by their size alone.
JooceBocks 01-22-08, 05:37 PM	I think JooceBocks is reading a clearly overtly literal interpretation of the spell, whereas the intent is perfectly clear: apply the template to the creature, and you're done. Well I was reading literally into this spell because, with that statement, it appeared that the spell had a quite literal application. Also, summoning spells seem like the types of spells where common sense doesn't play as much as a role (since summoning spells may need to infer variances to monsters in accordance of balance). While I agree this is the use of the spell now, with the provided evidence in its favor, I kind of disagree in the balance of this 3rd/4th level spell (I am no longer disagreeing on the ruling). Point 2 is simple as well: what if you want to make a naga skeleton or zombie, without referencing its own characteristics? Are you still going to give it a claw attack - it doesn't even have claws! Where'd the attack come from? This just seemed like a fun statement to respond to, so I shall. Have you ever seen, or played, a Diablo II Summoning Necromancer? No matter what kind of corpse you use, Summon Skeleton ALWAYS provides a Humanoid Skeleton with set statistics. The rationale behind this lies in the fact that you are animating an Undead, not just controlling it. This is also how I rationalized it in third edition when we got them solely based on size(made the spell rather balanced). Since the monsters retained no trace of the base monster's statistics it made quite a bit of sense to me that the caster would want to use his/her magic to animate it into a humanoid form (Can effectively use weapons/armor easier and weapons/armor would be easier to obtain for them; plus opposable thumbs). Nowadays the spell just seems like the Diablo II Necromancer's Revive skill, minus the set time limit (Which would be overpowered in D2; I also find this spell at least a little overpowered in DnD). I got a little extra time seeing how I can't do what I need to do until tomorrow since the bank closed. I couldn't pass up responding to this post.
McPoyo 01-23-08, 09:33 AM	I couldn't be bothered to read through page two, so if someone has already placed a definitive, I apologize. 3.0 MM had skeletons and zombies with stats due to size, not base creature. Didn't matter what it came from, they were all the same. 3.5 MM does not, it has a template listing to be applied. The first printing of the PHB still had that erroneous "abilities based on size, refer to MM" paragraph cut and pasted over. I have not noticed that in the second printing a friend has (I don't know the publish date, but seeing as how the SRD says the same thing....) Secondly, regardless of what the first printing of the 3.5 PHB states, if you refer to the monster manual for zombie and skeleton stats, it says to apply the template to the base creature. Either way, you're templating the corpse, and all that entails. Second, if you wanna be really nitpicky, a lot of the abilities of both skeletons and zombies in the 3.5 MM are based on the original size of the creeature, so it's "technically" correct with the first printing of the 3.5 PHB on that one, if a bit vague. If you want to use Chapter 5 and make your own, feel free, but you're making more work for yourself. It allows a little bit more control as the DM, but it's way more work than should be necessary, and isn't actually necessary.
sblaxman 01-23-08, 12:05 PM	We're talking about the lvl 3 spell right? You guys are reading WAYYY too much power into that spell... it creates a skeleton or a zombie, you do it on a beholder, you have a zombie beholder, no eye beams or powers. If it was a 8th level spell maybe, but a lvl 3 spell would just doing what it is saying... "animating" the body
Vegepygmy 01-23-08, 12:14 PM	You guys are reading WAYYY too much power into that spell... it creates a skeleton or a zombie, you do it on a beholder, you have a zombie beholder, no eye beams or powers.You didn't even read the thread, did you?