Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llathos 02-19-04, 02:37 PM	The most typical thug with a big weapon archtype will often carry a two-handed weapon (greatsword, greataxe, etc) and get that extra power attack dmg and 2-H str dmg bonus. With that said, why isn't every one of these guys who has any money running around with an animated tower shield in front of them? I don't see any drawback to it, the price isn't high, and it can easily add 5+ to the AC. Animated is only a +2 ability for shields. Hence, getting a +2 Animated Tower Shield is a measly 16000gp, and increases the AC by 6. Here's the SRD description of the effect: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. Since it's a shield armor type, it will of course also still stack with armor, natural armor, deflection, dodge, etc. It seems like this should be a +3 or 4 ability, at least...
adiaven 02-19-04, 02:50 PM	the only drawback is you have to "waste" a round to use it. move equivilent to equip a shield standard action to activate the animate magic. so yea, every THF and TWF should have one....
The Hanged Man 02-19-04, 02:56 PM	Why wouldn't you just always have it animated?
adiaven 02-19-04, 02:58 PM	Heh, they wanted to move quietly and didn't want the armor check penalty? There really is no reason not too. I hope they errata it to make it minutes per day or something.
The Hanged Man 02-19-04, 03:00 PM	Mithral . . . IMC, there are no animated shields. Gets too wonky.
adiaven 02-19-04, 03:05 PM	IMC, mithral requires an adventure to go find enough of it to make enough for breastplate or a large shield. Want mithral fullplate? hope you can travel to the ends of the planet searching for this stuff. Adamantium? Get your planar travelling shoes on or followup leads on where a meteorite hit to gather enough to make a dagger.
FlyingCowKing 02-19-04, 03:13 PM	Well most big thugs aren't proficient with tower shields, except for a few fighter thugs! All the classes, except fighter, aren't proficient with a tower shield, and most monster types aren't proficient either (if your reffering to NPC's as well) Under the animated description you put "A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency" Pg 122 of the PHB states in the Armor Check Penalty paragraph "a character who wears armor and/or a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) check penalty on attack rolls. A tower shield's check penalty is -10!! Ouch! +4ac ....-10 attack. I'd say that's why any thug with some cash wouldn't take an animated tower shield with them! (Unless by "thug" you didn't mean NPC, you meant PC fighters, then I totally agree with ya!!!) :)
Tony Vargas 02-19-04, 03:39 PM	About the only reason not to go with the animated Tower Shield is the armor check penalty and the -2 to all your attacks. That and, of course, the need for proficiency. Can't think of any reason at all not to go with an animated 'Heavy' Shield, though - +2 +enhancement AC, little or no armor check or other penalties (depending on what it's made out of). .... Related question - how do you 'turtle up' (go to full cover) when using an animated shield? Do you need to command it (usually a standard action to activate a command-word item)? Does it just 'know' that if you hunker down behind it, it's supposed to switch from blocking attacks to providing cover?
coofpsychycic 02-19-04, 04:19 PM	the styles of fighting that are removed as extra attack or damage should be every,which if the book is saying this and that it may mean every to a normal 'dm' sense of style,and to characters in real trouble maybe 1 or 2 has a feat etc that allows the attack etc extra while the shield is in use furthermore excessive exchanging of armour class with item like uses rather than magic cast extra's may appeal to iether traite damage or dm choice for harsher advesaries
The Hanged Man 02-19-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas Related question - how do you 'turtle up' (go to full cover) when using an animated shield? Do you need to command it (usually a standard action to activate a command-word item)? Does it just 'know' that if you hunker down behind it, it's supposed to switch from blocking attacks to providing cover? As I understand it, unfortunately, it depends on if you follow the Sage or not. Per the core rules, there is no facing. So, the sheild's location is kind of irrelevant - you just decide to "hunker down" and you get full cover, from everywhere. Whether it's animated or not doesn't matter, b/c it's the person wielding it who does the hiding. If you follow the Sage, you have to choose a front, and then you make the decision, b/c Tower Shields do have facing. If that's the case, and you're being attacked from the wrong side, I would guess you need to take a move action to change facing (just guessing here), then take the standard action to hunker down.
Hypersmurf 02-19-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Adamantium? "Adamantine" in D&D :) -Hyp.
Tony Vargas 02-19-04, 06:00 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man As I understand it, unfortunately, it depends on if you follow the Sage or not. Per the core rules, there is no facing. ... If you follow the Sage, you have to choose a front, and then you make the decision, b/c Tower Shields do have facing. I thought we went through this in 3.0, and that's why Tower Shield was changed? :confused: Anyway, what I was actually trying to figure out was how you'd do it with an Animated Shield - one that is, presumably, moving around you of it's own volition to provide a +4 Shield bonus. That seems incompatible with 'turtling up.' I take it the Animated enchantment doesn't address the issue.... maybe simply re-commanding it?
The Hanged Man 02-19-04, 06:24 PM	Well, I think more accurately the Animated enhancement doesn't address the situation any better than the normal Tower Shield rules do. Neither explains how a slab of wood/steel/whatever gives you total cover from everywhere.
TheGogmagog 02-19-04, 10:22 PM	"Related question - how do you 'turtle up' (go to full cover) when using an animated shield? Do you need to command it (usually a standard action to activate a command-word item)? Does it just 'know' that if you hunker down behind it, it's supposed to switch from blocking attacks to providing cover?" Well, with a small or large shield there would be no significant change. It provieds an Shield AC bonus, you just change your tacktics to fighting defensively or full round defensive action. For the tower shield, I believe a animated tower shield behaves the same way a non-animated tower shield behaves. I haven't seen anything more recent than the last 6 months on it, but IIRC. Tower shields dont provide armor, they are a portable wall that provides cover, which is directional, and is a free action to re-position once per round. Full cover would be provided from the straight line in the direction the tower shield faces. That's they way I run it, the player wielding the tower shield to declare how much cover they want from one target, then the battle map resolves how much cover they have from any other location.
Tony Vargas 02-19-04, 10:29 PM	I guess it's just a fire-and-forget shield. You decide you'd rather have cover than AC, and it just magically knows to comply. It is magic, afterall. ;)
Capn Charlie 02-19-04, 10:35 PM	In my game I removed some of the "wonk"iness by making animated the same equivelant bonus as dancing. It makes sense afterall...
da chicken 02-19-04, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas I thought we went through this in 3.0, and that's why Tower Shield was changed? Latest Dragon he basically wrote up word-for-word exactly what the 3.0 PH said on using them. :rolleyes: I'll never use them that way. Stupid facing! Die! DIE!!!
Tony Vargas 02-19-04, 11:57 PM	Originally posted by da chicken Latest Dragon he basically wrote up word-for-word exactly what the 3.0 PH said on using them. :rolleyes: I'll never use them that way. Stupid facing! Die! DIE!!! That's funny, the PH didn't have the facing rules in 3.0, either, it just said you used the tower shield to get cover based on how much you wanted to come out from behind it - no mention of facing. I quite liked the facing version of the Tower Shield spell, it allowed some amusing tactics, without being over-powered (well, occassionally useless, but not over-powered). I only ever came up with two characters that actually used one, and never saw anyone else do it... so I guess it was probably just me. :embarrass Even so, I have no problem with the 3.5 version, it's just simpler - even if it does technically allow you to disapear behind the thing from every concievable angle at once.
adiaven 02-20-04, 01:55 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf "Adamantine" in D&D :) -Hyp. D&D stole it from Marvel, who spells it Adamantium. We should respect the original creator of the idea, and spell it the way it was meant to be spelled :)
da chicken 02-20-04, 02:31 AM	Originally posted by Tony Vargas That's funny, the PH didn't have the facing rules in 3.0, either, it just said you used the tower shield to get cover based on how much you wanted to come out from behind it - no mention of facing. Huh. I guess I always just assumed it worked like the shield spell. Shows what I know! I quite liked the facing version of the Tower Shield spell, it allowed some amusing tactics, without being over-powered (well, occassionally useless, but not over-powered). I only ever came up with two characters that actually used one, and never saw anyone else do it... so I guess it was probably just me. :embarrass Even so, I have no problem with the 3.5 version, it's just simpler - even if it does technically allow you to disapear behind the thing from every concievable angle at once. I really like the 3.5 version. It means a tower shield +1 is not a nonsensical item anymore.
da chicken 02-20-04, 02:33 AM	Originally posted by adiaven D&D stole it from Marvel, who spells it Adamantium. We should respect the original creator of the idea, and spell it the way it was meant to be spelled :) Stan Lee is not the original creator. "Adamas" is the Greek word for diamond.
Capn Charlie 02-20-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by adiaven D&D stole it from Marvel, who spells it Adamantium. We should respect the original creator of the idea, and spell it the way it was meant to be spelled :) Please let that be a joke. If it isn't a joke I just may have to track down and stertilize this guy to protect the hiuman genome. You ARE joking right?
adiaven 02-20-04, 03:40 AM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie Please let that be a joke. If it isn't a joke I just may have to track down and stertilize this guy to protect the hiuman genome. You ARE joking right? I would hope the savior of the "hiuman genome" would at least be able to spell or type correctly. And, no I am not joking. Adamantium is a made up word created by Marvel (I don't think Stan Lee created wolverine where it first appeared) adamantine is a real word and boring. I prefer the pseudo sci-fi word :) edit to be perfectly clear: There is no metal adamantine. It's fictional, made up, make believe. No such thing as a metal with the hardness of a diamond. adamantine is carbon crystalized, non metallic.
Hypersmurf 02-20-04, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by adiaven D&D stole it from Marvel, who spells it Adamantium. We should respect the original creator of the idea, and spell it the way it was meant to be spelled :) Hmm? So should we refer to "mithril" instead of "mithral", and "hobbits" instead of "halflings", and "alfar" instead of "elves"? -Hyp.
Capn Charlie 02-20-04, 04:59 AM	Bah, typo's happen. "i" and "u" are right together, as are "r" and "t". Let's see you eat a chilidog and type at the same time. It's a trick! Adamantine is an adjective, describing an object of adamantite. i.e. "Joe has adamantine full plate, it is made of adamantite." Adamant, that is an adjective as well. It describes an extremely hard substance. i.e. "His will is adamant." or "His blade is adamant." Your armor may be adamantine, it may be adamant, but it is made of adamantite. Besides, "adamantine" is not "carbon crystalized, non metallic" it is indeed a metal. It is just an incredibly hard metal. Maybe the term has a different meaning and connotation in Greece, or Marvel Comics, but here in DnD it has it's own meaning. I for one prefer to keep my sci-fi out of my fantasy. Wolverine is all well and good, as is Captain America, but they better stay out of my game.
Hypersmurf 02-20-04, 05:12 AM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie Adamantine is an adjective, describing an object of adamantite. i.e. "Joe has adamantine full plate, it is made of adamantite." Your armor may be adamantine, it may be adamant, but it is made of adamantite. Not in D&D. In D&D, Adamantine describes an object made of Adamantine. In the 3E Core rules, the term "Adamantite" occurs twice - on the table of Hardness and Hit points in the PHB, and in the cut'n'paste instance of that table in the Tables section at the back of the DMG. The term "Adamantine", on the other hand, used as both an adjective and a noun, occurs at least 16 times. "This shield is made of adamantine"; "a weapon made of adamantine"; etc. In 3.5, the table has been corrected; "Adamantite" has been removed from D&D. (Incidentally, "Adamantine" occurs even more often in 3.5, now that certain creatures have DR X/Adamantine... See for yourself. (http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/specialMaterials.html) -Hyp.
adiaven 02-20-04, 12:47 PM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie Besides, "adamantine" is not "carbon crystalized, non metallic" it is indeed a metal. It is just an incredibly hard metal. Ok, I'll call you on this one. Please show me a source and a picture of real life adamantine. It has to have all the properties of metal (malleable, conducts electricity, etc)
Hypersmurf 02-20-04, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Ok, I'll call you on this one. Please show me a source and a picture of real life adamantine. It has to have all the properties of metal (malleable, conducts electricity, etc) What's real life got to do with anything? Please show me a source and a picture of a real life Tojanida, Ravid, and Xill. In D&D, Adamantine is a metal. It's not hard to demonstrate: "Adamantine: This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/– if it’s light armor, 2/– if it’s medium armor, and 3/– if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below..." Adamantine. Ultrahard metal. Weapons and armor made from adamantine. In D&D, Adamantine is a noun, and it's a metal. -Hyp.
The Hanged Man 02-20-04, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by da chicken Latest Dragon he basically wrote up word-for-word exactly what the 3.0 PH said on using them. :rolleyes: I'll never use them that way. Stupid facing! Die! DIE!!! It's alive! ALIVE!
adiaven 02-20-04, 04:41 PM	Because in real life, adamantine is just crystalized carbon (aka black diamond). He said that it is metal. In Marvel, Adamantium is a super hard metal. (came first) In DnD, Adamantine is a super hard metal. In real life, Adamantine is not a metal. So I prefer to call it Adamantium, because it sounds cooler :) Hypersmurf, because I feel sorry for you, I am going to tell you that I am just trolling you guys. You fell for it completely, and I can't believe you are quoting the SRD to tell me what adamantine is. Anyway, thanks for the laugh.
Hypersmurf 02-20-04, 05:24 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Hypersmurf, because I feel sorry for you, I am going to tell you that I am just trolling you guys. You fell for it completely, and I can't believe you are quoting the SRD to tell me what adamantine is. Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." I find it's preferable to assume someone is ignorant, and thus capable of enlightenment, rather than feigning ignorance for perverse pleasure, and thus irredeemable. -Hyp.
Llathos 02-23-04, 12:36 PM	Great quote Hyp....heard that one at work recently when I flipped out on someone for being a jackass, when it turned out they were just retarded. Experienced employee quoted that one for me:) Back on topic.....I guess the answer is: you would. Any fighter (tank style....armor check doesn't mean squat when you're already in full plate) with a 2-H weapon and a reasonable amount of money has NO reason to not want an animated tower shield. You get no additional penalties. Isn't that one of the definitions of "broken"? Hmmm...food for thought.
Stoned Golem 02-23-04, 01:15 PM	I feel sorry for you adiaven. Being a troll is several orders of magnitude worse than falling for one.
Banes 03-21-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by Capn Charlie In my game I removed some of the "wonk"iness by making animated the same equivelant bonus as dancing. It makes sense afterall... This seems to have alot of merit. E.g.: the Dancing ability is a +4 while the animated is only a +2 enhancement. -A dancing weapon can attack - shield cannot. -A dancing weapon only lasts 4 rounds - shield indefinite So, game mechanic wise, a person with Dancing may: - equip a shield (1 rnd) and benifit from it for 3 additional rounds, or - Use a weapon 2-H while dancing weapon attacks (4 rnds). - Equip a 3rd weapon (usually free action) and get 3 attacks (4 rnds). With the animated shield, the person may: - Use a weapon 2-H with the benifit of a shield (unlimited) - Equip a 2nd weapon (usually free action) and get 2 attacks (unlimited). So we can see the Dancing is slightly more versitile, but with the 4 round limit, it seems to be very restricted. I cannot see any reason why there would be a +2 difference between these two enchantments! Minimum cost for the dancing weapon = 50,000gp Minimum cost for the animated shield = 9,000gp NO WAY this is ballenced! My opinion: either increase the enchantment to +3 (normal shields) and +4 (tower shields), or Limit animated shield to 4 rounds duration (like dancing).