Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pippa 06-24-05, 06:03 PM	In part three of the Gaseous Form Series, we'll discuss the multiple uses of this arcane spell... once again. Today's topic is the following: What happens when a character that finds himself in water, casts Gaseous Form on himself? (While gaseous, you cannot enter water) Does the spell fail? Does he pop out of the water? Does this cause the elements to go bananas, and turn you into bubling foam? What do you think? Oh, and if any of you can think of other far-fetched uses of Gaseous Form, please go ahead, before I myself come to think of them them and post them here on the net.
RaspK FOG 06-24-05, 06:10 PM	I believe that the most obvious resolution would be to harmlessly come up in the liquid's surface (the reason you cannot enter liquids is because you are gaseous)...
Santrilla 06-24-05, 06:14 PM	Yeah, I'm pretty sure you'd just float up to the surface like a bubble.
Pippa 06-24-05, 06:33 PM	Funny: I thought everyone would go NOOO that's like creeping into a badger's hole and cast enlarge on you to let the hill burst open - doesn't work; but instead you find it completely plaudible. Given that this would be a life-saving tactic when you've fallen overboard, you don't think it's somewhat powerful, or anything?
Santrilla 06-24-05, 06:45 PM	Not particularly. Water breathing is the same level.
RaspK FOG 06-24-05, 07:04 PM	Funny: I thought everyone would go NOOO that's like creeping into a badger's hole and cast enlarge on you to let the hill burst open - doesn't work; but instead you find it completely plaudible. Given that this would be a life-saving tactic when you've fallen overboard, you don't think it's somewhat powerful, or anything? Apart from the very reasonable explanation given above by my colleague (I always wanted to say that :D), you have to realise that the reason you cannot enter a liquid while in Gaseous Form is because you are a rather cohesive kind of vapor cloud, and the only way you could enter way (obviously not by your own volition, unless you plan this), is by being forced to do so by a solid object that envelops you, but you would still not truly submerge as much as go down through the water (not to mention the possibility of the vessel within which you are contained tipping over and... spilling in the liquid); going up in the form of a rather large bubble is not upsetting the game balance. On the other hand, enlarging yourself while in a badger's hole leaves many more holes open, not to mention imbalances.
Santrilla 06-24-05, 08:18 PM	Apart from the very reasonable explanation given above by my colleague (I always wanted to say that :D) Aw, I'm flattered that you consider me your colleague. :embarrass
Pippa 06-25-05, 04:23 AM	Thank you very much! May the gods smile upon and sometimes wave at you...!
tarkin 06-25-05, 10:03 AM	I did this in a game and the DM ruled I bubbled up, which is what I expected. Please note that Gaseous Form does not have a Verbal component, which makes this tactic very plausible.
TheMagister 06-25-05, 11:20 AM	I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Roll with me: PHB pg. 171, "Spell Failure" If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell (range, area, or the like) cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted. For example, if you cast charm person on a dog, the spell fails because a dog is the wrong sort of target for the spell. Gaseous Form (snip)...The (gaseous) creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid...(snip) That seems pretty indicative of a characteristic of the spell (target currently in an environment prohibited to the creature in the spell description) that cannot be made to conform. Were *I* DMing, I'd rule that the spell failed for these reasons. Were I playing, I'd accept either ruling. TM
Santrilla 06-25-05, 12:26 PM	I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Roll with me: PHB pg. 171, "Spell Failure" If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell (range, area, or the like) cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted. For example, if you cast charm person on a dog, the spell fails because a dog is the wrong sort of target for the spell. Gaseous Form (snip)...The (gaseous) creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid...(snip) That seems pretty indicative of a characteristic of the spell (target currently in an environment prohibited to the creature in the spell description) that cannot be made to conform. Were *I* DMing, I'd rule that the spell failed for these reasons. Were I playing, I'd accept either ruling. TM That's a fair interpretation. Personally, I interpret the line you quoted as being a characteristic of the result of the spell, rather than the spell itself; the subject becomes gaseous, and as such doesn't have the physical strength to break the surface of water by themselves. If while underwater they are made gaseous, however, they float up to the top as a normal bubble of gas would.
TheMagister 06-25-05, 12:48 PM	That's a fair interpretation. Personally, I interpret the line you quoted as being a characteristic of the result of the spell, rather than the spell itself; the subject becomes gaseous, and as such doesn't have the physical strength to break the surface of water by themselves. If while underwater they are made gaseous, however, they float up to the top as a normal bubble of gas would. I started playing devil's advocate, so I'll keep on. What happens to the water that rushes in to fill the space where your (previously) solid body was when you instantly transmute into a gaseous form? Maybe that's where the whole "bubble" thing comes from. Anyways... This is TOTAL extrapolation, and not RAW, but...! It would seem to me to be likened to when your astral body (during a blink spell for example) becoming corporeal inside a solid object; you'd be shunted off toward the nearest open space and take 1d6 damage per 5ft. shunted. Now, the difference between blink and gaseous form is that for the one, a solid object is a legal environment for the spell. It has rules to cover what happens if you materialize in the same space as a solid object. For gaseous form, however, there aren't...except for the single sentence about a target in gaseous form not being able to enter a liquid. Whatcha think? TM
Santrilla 06-25-05, 12:51 PM	I started playing devil's advocate, so I'll keep on. What happens to the water that rushes in to fill the space where your (previously) solid body was when you instantly transmute into a gaseous form? Maybe that's where the whole "bubble" thing comes from. Anyways... This is TOTAL extrapolation, and not RAW, but...! It would seem to me to be likened to when your astral body (during a blink spell for example) becoming corporeal inside a solid object; you'd be shunted off toward the nearest open space and take 1d6 damage per 5ft. shunted. Now, the difference between blink and gaseous form is that for the one, a solid object is a legal environment for the spell. It has rules to cover what happens if you materialize in the same space as a solid object. For gaseous form, however, there aren't...except for the single sentence about a target in gaseous form not being able to enter a liquid. Whatcha think? TM Yup, and that's effectively what we're suggesting. Our shunt is just a lot gentler. :P
TheMagister 06-25-05, 01:42 PM	Gentler, hmmm. Have you ever been deep underwater (10+ ft.)? When you breathe out quickly, you can get some pretty big bubbles in the water that quickly race to the surface. Have you ever seen the big bubbles break apart into smaller bubbles because of the water's resistance to the upward motion? It happens. If it happened to a gaseous creature, what would the effect be? Gaseously cut in half? How much damage would that come out to? ... Truth, it seems easier to just rule the one way or the other. I personally am in favor of automatic failure. The bubble thing just doesn't sit right with me. TM
Santrilla 06-25-05, 01:59 PM	Gentler, hmmm. Have you ever been deep underwater (10+ ft.)? When you breathe out quickly, you can get some pretty big bubbles in the water that quickly race to the surface. Have you ever seen the big bubbles break apart into smaller bubbles because of the water's resistance to the upward motion? It happens. If it happened to a gaseous creature, what would the effect be? Gaseously cut in half? How much damage would that come out to? ... Truth, it seems easier to just rule the one way or the other. I personally am in favor of automatic failure. The bubble thing just doesn't sit right with me. TM Ah, I see your point. I hadn't thought about that. Still, I think the assumption with gaseous creatures is that they can be seperated, rejoined and shaped as much as... well, as gas. At least until the spell ends.
tarkin 06-25-05, 02:33 PM	That argument is false, because the core rules actually list how much damage pressure does. Even though you are gasious, you are still you and still have your own hitpoints. To break you in 1/2, they would at the very least have to do enough damage to bring you under 0. From the (Environmental issues page of the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html) : Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, it deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure. Therefore your arguement about there not being damage rules to represent the pressure's effect on the bubbles is false.
Pippa 06-25-05, 02:46 PM	Personally, I interpret the line you quoted as being a characteristic of the result of the spell, rather than the spell itself This is a very lucid expenation, I believe. I first thought I 'd go for the appear in nearest open space-thing (involving damage), but that would visually mean you "blink" to the surface of the water - not realistic at all. A combination of both was my second thought: you bubble up, but take damage. But then there was the nature of the spell itself: you becom very, VERY stretchable. Floating trough the opening of a mere needle wouldn't harm you. You might want to rule that when you're far enough below the surface, you take some damage because of the splitting up into tiny bubbles, but as I am reluctant about letting people cast spells with somatic (and/or verbal) components when they're completely underwater, I might rule that the spell works (when your head and arms are above the surface, the bubble probably won't be separated), lest you take that concentration check for casting in extreme conditions. What do you all think? Does this look sound?
TheMagister 06-25-05, 03:56 PM	The more I think about it, the more I'd just rather the spell fail because the environment is prohibited to the subject of the spell. It's far simpler, and lets water breathing be a good spell in its own right. Gaseous form is already so versatile. Why fill a slot with water breathing if you can memorize gaseous form instead? TM
tarkin 06-25-05, 03:57 PM	As this spell has no verbal requirement, I see no reason to require any part of there body be above water to cast the spell. I could however see a concentration check required due to unusual circumstances, such as being under water.
Santrilla 06-25-05, 06:20 PM	The more I think about it, the more I'd just rather the spell fail because the environment is prohibited to the subject of the spell. It's far simpler, and lets water breathing be a good spell in its own right. Gaseous form is already so versatile. Why fill a slot with water breathing if you can memorize gaseous form instead? TM Because there will be situations where you need to breathe water and stay underwater, whereas gaseous form will just make you float blissfully to the surface. I still think the ruling could go either way, and I'd accept either.
Pippa 06-26-05, 01:57 PM	As this spell has no verbal requirement, I see no reason to require any part of there body be above water to cast the spell. Haven't you got any problems with somatic components being cast underwater? Because even simple armours cause spells to fail sometimes, and I believe that water might restrain your movements perhaps even more, I would either rule that you need to hold your arms above the water when casting, or deal with a realistic arcane spell failiure percent (which I would make rather high). I don't seem to find any rules about casting underwater in the SRD, but Neely once started a thread about casting underwater, and I believe one of you might have posted in that thread. Is there an official rule that deals with components or spell failiure underwater? Furtheron, I think I feel the most like joining Santrilla's opinion. Still this is true; that for such a multi-functional spell as Gaseous Form, it has a rather skinny description.
Santrilla 06-26-05, 02:04 PM	As far as I'm aware there's no specific ruling on casting underwater. For most creatures, though, staying upright underwater requires a Swim check (DC 10 in still water if I remember correctly), and subsequently might require a Concentration check too.
RaspK FOG 06-27-05, 04:42 AM	Let me illuminate you: first of all, Water Breathing (apart from affecting multiple creatures) does not push you to the surface of the water mass you are currently in; that's what Water Walk does (a cleric and ranger spell). The two fit very different bills. As for the reasons I see why this should be done so, reread my earlier statements (as to not being able to enter liquids).
CaoSlayer 06-27-05, 06:49 AM	acording to my experiments in the bath tub after eating "gaseous" food, the gas will go up and exit the liquid fast doing funny noises and bubbles.
Santrilla 06-27-05, 06:57 AM	Let me illuminate you: first of all, Water Breathing (apart from affecting multiple creatures) does not push you to the surface of the water mass you are currently in; that's what Water Walk does (a cleric and ranger spell). The two fit very different bills. As for the reasons I see why this should be done so, reread my earlier statements (as to not being able to enter liquids). Uh, that's exactly what I was saying. Water breathing means you can walk around on the ocean floor, gaseous form pushes you to the surface.
Pippa 07-13-05, 05:17 PM	I can add something entirely new to this: In our latest game-session, my sorcerer wanted to aid a person who had fallen overboard in a storm, and used Spectral Hand to cast Gaseous Form on the poor, poor man. He bubbled up, and mili-seconds later was blown away at massive speed. I probably killed him. About the time the duration of the spell expired, he must have been miles above the surface, if the thrill of the ride itself hadn't already killed him instantly. Let that another use of Gaseous Form: instant kill in stormy wheather.
tarkin 07-13-05, 05:38 PM	That is an instant kill in any stormy area, not just underwater.
Pippa 07-15-05, 07:31 AM	Given that I would want to kill an ally. I just remembered that the target must be willing. That'll be Charm Person first, I guess.