Another Grease question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Grease question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
farscapesg1
09-12-04, 11:48 PM Instead of hijacking the other thread, I wanted to ask the board's viewpoint on something that came up in a game this weekend.

If an opponent fails it's save in a Grease spell and falls prone, on their move are they allowed to stand back up? Standing from prone is a move-equivalent action, but not actually moving so we ruled that they could in fact stand back up, attack, and then would have to make the check to remain standing on my next initiative (I was the one who cast the spell).

Was this correct, or should the victim have to make a save when trying to stand back up?
Iver Gearsham
09-13-04, 04:58 AM Any time you move in the area you should make the check let alone swinging and dogeing in melee.
Have you seen people trying to stand up in a slippery area before? It is a classic slap stick comedy routine for a reason.
dorpond
09-13-04, 12:25 PM SRD:Grease:"This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area."

I would think that the save is done at the beginning of your round.

Knowing that, if you save and fail, then you didn't even get up. If you saved, then I would think you get up and then do whatever.

I guess the question then is: What happens if you save during the save check? Can you move normally (normal speed) through the grease or does saving just mean that you didn't fall during casting but when you try and walk through it you must do another save throw? Are you always half speed save or not?
Seeker95
09-13-04, 01:23 PM It is not "movement" that triggers the save requirement. It is the simple act of being in the area of effect. Standing up and not moving places you in the area of effect, so you must save again that round.

If you save in a round, you do not have to save again. No game mechanic requires you to save against the same effect twice in the same round (hit-damage effects notwithstanding). So if you successfully stand up (make the save) you can move freely for the remainder of that round (i.e. take your move).

I would rule that you can only move at half speed in the area of a grease spell, just as the description indicates. The spell simply does not allow for normal movement, and requires a balance check for half movement.

The offensive uses of this spell do open some interesting conundrums, but I think these are more related to the nature of turn-based rounds rather than to this spell.
dorpond
09-13-04, 01:34 PM What conundrums do you forsee? Being a DM, I want to be prepared for such so game time doesn't suffer.
Seeker95
09-13-04, 01:44 PM 1. The "prone" versus "crawling" identified in the other thread (the conundrum is that it "makes sense" either way you rule it).

2. You cannot fall until it is your turn in subsequent rounds. If my friend casts it, and then it is my turn, I cannot treat you as prone (fallen) until it is your turn -- even if you would have fallen on your turn. The irony is that while I can move faster than you can move ("I'm better than you"), I can't be better than you *and* take advantage of your falling in the same round that you fall.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I suspect there are more.
meabolex
09-13-04, 02:03 PM If an opponent fails it's save in a Grease spell and falls prone, on their move are they allowed to stand back up?
Yes, without a check of any kind. . . assuming the opponent is down in the first place.
Standing from prone is a move-equivalent action, but not actually moving so we ruled that they could in fact stand back up, attack, and then would have to make the check to remain standing on my next initiative (I was the one who cast the spell).
Being in a greased area is a big problem. If you stand up and attack, you're there until your next turn and have to make reflex save at the beginning of the caster's turn. Remember, being in an area that requires a balance check to move through has some special rules:
Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.
As long as you stay in one place, you only have to worry about the reflex save every round (and the balance check to fall when damaged). If you move, you have to worry about the balance issues.
Seeker95
09-13-04, 02:29 PM meabolex said it way better than I did. Use his reply. :D
meabolex
09-13-04, 02:38 PM meabolex said it way better than I did. Use his reply. :D
Well, that must be a first (:

That is, saying it way better than you did (:

My, aren't we complaisant today!
Seeker95
09-13-04, 04:59 PM I took my happy pills. (And am semi-employed again).
dorpond
09-13-04, 07:08 PM 2. You cannot fall until it is your turn in subsequent rounds.

Well that is interesting..

Like a fireball does damage on the casting of the spell and HP is lowered on the casting of the spell, why wouldn't a player fall during the moment of checking?

Do you have characters fall when it is there turn or am I not understanding you?

Why wouldn't they fall during the actual check?
dorpond
09-13-04, 07:16 PM (and the balance check to fall when damaged).

Meabolex, excuse me for asking but I just want to understand.

Where does it say you have to do a balance check when damaged? Am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks in advance
meabolex
09-13-04, 08:29 PM Where does it say you have to do a balance check when damaged? Am I understanding you correctly?
If you're in a situation where you have to make a balance check to move, if you get damaged, you have to make a balance check at the same DC as if you're moving. See my quote above ("Being Attacked While Balancing") from the balance skill.
dorpond
09-13-04, 08:39 PM So would that damage only be from those that are readying to attack?

I guess it's the rounds that screws me up.

If it is my turn and I am in grease trying to move and do a balance check, that balance check is happeneing during my round, correct? So then, the only way I could get damaged while balancing is if someone was readying the attack and got be while balancing, correct?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
farscapesg1 09-12-04, 11:48 PM	Instead of hijacking the other thread, I wanted to ask the board's viewpoint on something that came up in a game this weekend. If an opponent fails it's save in a Grease spell and falls prone, on their move are they allowed to stand back up? Standing from prone is a move-equivalent action, but not actually moving so we ruled that they could in fact stand back up, attack, and then would have to make the check to remain standing on my next initiative (I was the one who cast the spell). Was this correct, or should the victim have to make a save when trying to stand back up?
Iver Gearsham 09-13-04, 04:58 AM	Any time you move in the area you should make the check let alone swinging and dogeing in melee. Have you seen people trying to stand up in a slippery area before? It is a classic slap stick comedy routine for a reason.
dorpond 09-13-04, 12:25 PM	SRD:Grease:"This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area." I would think that the save is done at the beginning of your round. Knowing that, if you save and fail, then you didn't even get up. If you saved, then I would think you get up and then do whatever. I guess the question then is: What happens if you save during the save check? Can you move normally (normal speed) through the grease or does saving just mean that you didn't fall during casting but when you try and walk through it you must do another save throw? Are you always half speed save or not?
Seeker95 09-13-04, 01:23 PM	It is not "movement" that triggers the save requirement. It is the simple act of being in the area of effect. Standing up and not moving places you in the area of effect, so you must save again that round. If you save in a round, you do not have to save again. No game mechanic requires you to save against the same effect twice in the same round (hit-damage effects notwithstanding). So if you successfully stand up (make the save) you can move freely for the remainder of that round (i.e. take your move). I would rule that you can only move at half speed in the area of a grease spell, just as the description indicates. The spell simply does not allow for normal movement, and requires a balance check for half movement. The offensive uses of this spell do open some interesting conundrums, but I think these are more related to the nature of turn-based rounds rather than to this spell.
dorpond 09-13-04, 01:34 PM	What conundrums do you forsee? Being a DM, I want to be prepared for such so game time doesn't suffer.
Seeker95 09-13-04, 01:44 PM	1. The "prone" versus "crawling" identified in the other thread (the conundrum is that it "makes sense" either way you rule it). 2. You cannot fall until it is your turn in subsequent rounds. If my friend casts it, and then it is my turn, I cannot treat you as prone (fallen) until it is your turn -- even if you would have fallen on your turn. The irony is that while I can move faster than you can move ("I'm better than you"), I can't be better than you and take advantage of your falling in the same round that you fall. That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I suspect there are more.
meabolex 09-13-04, 02:03 PM	If an opponent fails it's save in a Grease spell and falls prone, on their move are they allowed to stand back up? Yes, without a check of any kind. . . assuming the opponent is down in the first place. Standing from prone is a move-equivalent action, but not actually moving so we ruled that they could in fact stand back up, attack, and then would have to make the check to remain standing on my next initiative (I was the one who cast the spell). Being in a greased area is a big problem. If you stand up and attack, you're there until your next turn and have to make reflex save at the beginning of the caster's turn. Remember, being in an area that requires a balance check to move through has some special rules: Being Attacked while Balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. As long as you stay in one place, you only have to worry about the reflex save every round (and the balance check to fall when damaged). If you move, you have to worry about the balance issues.
Seeker95 09-13-04, 02:29 PM	meabolex said it way better than I did. Use his reply. :D
meabolex 09-13-04, 02:38 PM	meabolex said it way better than I did. Use his reply. :D Well, that must be a first (: That is, saying it way better than you did (: My, aren't we complaisant today!
Seeker95 09-13-04, 04:59 PM	I took my happy pills. (And am semi-employed again).
dorpond 09-13-04, 07:08 PM	2. You cannot fall until it is your turn in subsequent rounds. Well that is interesting.. Like a fireball does damage on the casting of the spell and HP is lowered on the casting of the spell, why wouldn't a player fall during the moment of checking? Do you have characters fall when it is there turn or am I not understanding you? Why wouldn't they fall during the actual check?
dorpond 09-13-04, 07:16 PM	(and the balance check to fall when damaged). Meabolex, excuse me for asking but I just want to understand. Where does it say you have to do a balance check when damaged? Am I understanding you correctly? Thanks in advance
meabolex 09-13-04, 08:29 PM	Where does it say you have to do a balance check when damaged? Am I understanding you correctly? If you're in a situation where you have to make a balance check to move, if you get damaged, you have to make a balance check at the same DC as if you're moving. See my quote above ("Being Attacked While Balancing") from the balance skill.
dorpond 09-13-04, 08:39 PM	So would that damage only be from those that are readying to attack? I guess it's the rounds that screws me up. If it is my turn and I am in grease trying to move and do a balance check, that balance check is happeneing during my round, correct? So then, the only way I could get damaged while balancing is if someone was readying the attack and got be while balancing, correct? Am I understanding this correctly? Thanks