another polymorph question [Archive] - Wizards Community

another polymorph question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
deathbane
04-30-06, 03:58 PM Can a spellcaster cast spells while polymorphed? I could not find a yes or no answer.
Esponer
04-30-06, 04:13 PM Can a spellcaster cast spells while polymorphed? I could not find a yes or no answer.

By the Player's Handbook: yes, providing they meet all normal conditions (such as the ability to talk, or the ability to eschew the need to talk).

By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also.
Seeker95
04-30-06, 11:33 PM I really really like the PHBII version!!!
(I should. It's how I've run it for over two years.)
Grievemere
05-01-06, 08:20 AM I thin kyou've just put me off PHBII.
Seeker95
05-01-06, 01:11 PM I think you've just put me off PHBII.If that's all it takes, you should probably avoid any D&D supplement. :D
Grievemere
05-01-06, 01:31 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
If that's all it takes, you should probably avoid any D&D supplement.

Ouch :surrender
I was probably asking for that, but I do wish we could stop with the constant chip and change of game mechanics.
MrkGrismer
05-01-06, 02:53 PM By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also.

That depends on whether the posted polymorph school actually applies to the PHB Polymorph change or not. I am not sure at this point if it does or not.
Seeker95
05-01-06, 03:51 PM It applies if you are using the book and the rule. Otherwise it does not.
Just like every other rule, core or not.
MrkGrismer
05-01-06, 10:55 PM True enough, but I haven't heard that PHb2 actually says to remove the polymorph series or if it is like the errata deal where it is something like "if the DM wishes to remove the spells this makes it easier" type thing.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-02-06, 11:46 AM That's the one good change in the whole thing.

Unfortunately, they saw fit to break everything else about the spell, ignoring the type and subtype change and now allowing Su and SLA's.

Overall, they made it impressively more broken, then tried to cover thier tracks by splitting it into monomorph spells.
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 02:56 PM By the Player's Handbook: yes, providing they meet all normal conditions (such as the ability to talk, or the ability to eschew the need to talk).

By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also.

This is not true.

Spells That Have Come Before
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).

You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

Alter Self's exisiting rules text takes priority over the polymorph subschool. Polymorph and Shapechange are "as Alter Self" in this regard.
Seeker95
05-02-06, 03:22 PM This is not true.

Alter Self's exisiting rules text takes priority over the polymorph subschool. Polymorph and Shapechange are "as Alter Self" in this regard.For now.

RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells.
Nephlite
05-02-06, 03:58 PM For now.

RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells.
I'll never understand why Alter Self is so talked about: natural armor is good, but not broken.

I can see how Polymorph and Shapechange can be:
1. Hydras are a sick person to turn into with polymorph
2. Shapechange makes it even better.
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 04:04 PM For now.

RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells.

RPGA has nothing to do with Official D&D Rules. What they ban or don't ban has little to do with anything outside of http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=457

Until there is a statement saying that the spells are removed from the game itself or official errata is published changing the spells themselves those spells are there in the rules and not allowing a 17th+ wizard to Shapechange is a house rule that must be stated along with all the other house rules.

Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years have probably already created their own house rules to deal with it.

The bottom line is that Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange remain effectively unchanged.
Seeker95
05-02-06, 04:37 PM The bottom line is that Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange remain effectively unchanged.Effectively? Depends on your definition of the word.
Officially? Changed.

Whether it affects your game or not is immaterial. Once the covnersation is about what, why, and how, the "big picture" impact doesn't matter.
The_Blob
05-02-06, 04:47 PM I don't have the PHB...yet :D ! But from reading the teaser excerpt on the D&D main page, it seems like "extreme brokenation" (to quote someone's sig.). All I can say is...War Troll anyone?
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 05:19 PM Effectively? Depends on your definition of the word.
Officially? Changed.

Whether it affects your game or not is immaterial. Once the covnersation is about what, why, and how, the "big picture" impact doesn't matter.

Effectively as in there is not a single functional change to the spells. The only thing I can see is a clarification that with shapechange parts seperated stay the same until the spell ends, and that could be argued since the text of shapechange overrides the Polymorph subschool.

Officially? UNCHANGED

Spells That Have Come Before
For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
tiercel
05-02-06, 05:35 PM Officially, from what I've seen from the excerpt on the Wizards site, it looks like the new [Polymorph] rules are an alternative to the existing polymorph line of spells.

People who hate, hate, HATE the existing polymorph will now be able to simply ban it, since an alternative exists. People who like polymorph the way it is for whatever reason, or who have already house-ruled it to their liking, can keep it.

Theoretically, the errata might ban polymorph altogether. While I, personally, would not think this absolutely terrible if the alternatives are well developed and thought out, I think it is unlikely to happen since the polymorph seems to be a polarizing one (at least on the threads you see on these boards).
Raven Dark
05-02-06, 05:35 PM Effectively as in there is not a single functional change to the spells. The only thing I can see is a clarification that with shapechange parts seperated stay the same until the spell ends, and that could be argued since the text of shapechange overrides the Polymorph subschool.

Officially? UNCHANGED

You seem to be in denial. Polypormph will be changed if it hasn't been already. It has been in the works for months now. Everybody knows this but you it seems.
MrkGrismer
05-02-06, 10:37 PM You seem to be in denial. Polypormph will be changed if it hasn't been already. It has been in the works for months now. Everybody knows this but you it seems.

I mean it in the nicest possible way, but you are living in fantasy land. Unless you have an inside source or a working crystal ball. It has not already been changed otherwise you would be able to post where it has already been changed. If and when it actually is changed then we can discuss how it has been changed. But it is mostly pointless to speculate on how it might be changed at some possible time in the future.

Tell you what. If it ever actually gets changed then you can laugh at me all you want, say that you were right and I was wrong. But right here, right now, It has not been changed.
jaelis
05-02-06, 11:38 PM Why would they bother to issue an errata banning the old polymorph? Who would that serve? People who don't like it now have an alternative, so they can just ban it for themselves. People who do like it will keep it anyway. Just like the RPGA rules reflect the choice made for that particular campaign.

People who are just starting and don't have an opinion yet probably won't read the errata anyway. Even if they do, I don't see how banning the old polymorph would make their gaming experience better. Once they start playing with the spells, they will develop an opinion and decide from there.

So I'd be very surpised if they errata'd it away. Now, come 4th ed, I suspect it will be gone, but that's another story.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deathbane 04-30-06, 03:58 PM	Can a spellcaster cast spells while polymorphed? I could not find a yes or no answer.
Esponer 04-30-06, 04:13 PM	Can a spellcaster cast spells while polymorphed? I could not find a yes or no answer. By the Player's Handbook: yes, providing they meet all normal conditions (such as the ability to talk, or the ability to eschew the need to talk). By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also.
Seeker95 04-30-06, 11:33 PM	I really really like the PHBII version!!! (I should. It's how I've run it for over two years.)
Grievemere 05-01-06, 08:20 AM	I thin kyou've just put me off PHBII.
Seeker95 05-01-06, 01:11 PM	I think you've just put me off PHBII.If that's all it takes, you should probably avoid any D&D supplement. :D
Grievemere 05-01-06, 01:31 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 If that's all it takes, you should probably avoid any D&D supplement. Ouch :surrender I was probably asking for that, but I do wish we could stop with the constant chip and change of game mechanics.
MrkGrismer 05-01-06, 02:53 PM	By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also. That depends on whether the posted polymorph school actually applies to the PHB Polymorph change or not. I am not sure at this point if it does or not.
Seeker95 05-01-06, 03:51 PM	It applies if you are using the book and the rule. Otherwise it does not. Just like every other rule, core or not.
MrkGrismer 05-01-06, 10:55 PM	True enough, but I haven't heard that PHb2 actually says to remove the polymorph series or if it is like the errata deal where it is something like "if the DM wishes to remove the spells this makes it easier" type thing.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-02-06, 11:46 AM	That's the one good change in the whole thing. Unfortunately, they saw fit to break everything else about the spell, ignoring the type and subtype change and now allowing Su and SLA's. Overall, they made it impressively more broken, then tried to cover thier tracks by splitting it into monomorph spells.
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 02:56 PM	By the Player's Handbook: yes, providing they meet all normal conditions (such as the ability to talk, or the ability to eschew the need to talk). By the Player's Handbook 2: no, you lose access to all class features, and spellcasting is a class feature. If you have spellcasting through a racial ability, you lose this also. This is not true. Spells That Have Come Before For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool). You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. Alter Self's exisiting rules text takes priority over the polymorph subschool. Polymorph and Shapechange are "as Alter Self" in this regard.
Seeker95 05-02-06, 03:22 PM	This is not true. Alter Self's exisiting rules text takes priority over the polymorph subschool. Polymorph and Shapechange are "as Alter Self" in this regard.For now. RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells.
Nephlite 05-02-06, 03:58 PM	For now. RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells. I'll never understand why Alter Self is so talked about: natural armor is good, but not broken. I can see how Polymorph and Shapechange can be: 1. Hydras are a sick person to turn into with polymorph 2. Shapechange makes it even better.
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 04:04 PM	For now. RPGA has already banned polymorph and shapechange in sanctioned games (Mark of Heroes campaign). It won't take long for the errata to catch up. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years are likely to follow suit, and use the PHBII content instead of, rather than in addition to, the PHB versions of these spells. RPGA has nothing to do with Official D&D Rules. What they ban or don't ban has little to do with anything outside of http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=457 Until there is a statement saying that the spells are removed from the game itself or official errata is published changing the spells themselves those spells are there in the rules and not allowing a 17th+ wizard to Shapechange is a house rule that must be stated along with all the other house rules. Further, DMs who have complained about polymorph for the past six years have probably already created their own house rules to deal with it. The bottom line is that Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange remain effectively unchanged.
Seeker95 05-02-06, 04:37 PM	The bottom line is that Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange remain effectively unchanged.Effectively? Depends on your definition of the word. Officially? Changed. Whether it affects your game or not is immaterial. Once the covnersation is about what, why, and how, the "big picture" impact doesn't matter.
The_Blob 05-02-06, 04:47 PM	I don't have the PHB...yet :D ! But from reading the teaser excerpt on the D&D main page, it seems like "extreme brokenation" (to quote someone's sig.). All I can say is...War Troll anyone?
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 05:19 PM	Effectively? Depends on your definition of the word. Officially? Changed. Whether it affects your game or not is immaterial. Once the covnersation is about what, why, and how, the "big picture" impact doesn't matter. Effectively as in there is not a single functional change to the spells. The only thing I can see is a clarification that with shapechange parts seperated stay the same until the spell ends, and that could be argued since the text of shapechange overrides the Polymorph subschool. Officially? UNCHANGED Spells That Have Come Before For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance, does not change the target's ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool).
tiercel 05-02-06, 05:35 PM	Officially, from what I've seen from the excerpt on the Wizards site, it looks like the new [Polymorph] rules are an alternative to the existing polymorph line of spells. People who hate, hate, HATE the existing polymorph will now be able to simply ban it, since an alternative exists. People who like polymorph the way it is for whatever reason, or who have already house-ruled it to their liking, can keep it. Theoretically, the errata might ban polymorph altogether. While I, personally, would not think this absolutely terrible if the alternatives are well developed and thought out, I think it is unlikely to happen since the polymorph seems to be a polarizing one (at least on the threads you see on these boards).
Raven Dark 05-02-06, 05:35 PM	Effectively as in there is not a single functional change to the spells. The only thing I can see is a clarification that with shapechange parts seperated stay the same until the spell ends, and that could be argued since the text of shapechange overrides the Polymorph subschool. Officially? UNCHANGED You seem to be in denial. Polypormph will be changed if it hasn't been already. It has been in the works for months now. Everybody knows this but you it seems.
MrkGrismer 05-02-06, 10:37 PM	You seem to be in denial. Polypormph will be changed if it hasn't been already. It has been in the works for months now. Everybody knows this but you it seems. I mean it in the nicest possible way, but you are living in fantasy land. Unless you have an inside source or a working crystal ball. It has not already been changed otherwise you would be able to post where it has already been changed. If and when it actually is changed then we can discuss how it has been changed. But it is mostly pointless to speculate on how it might be changed at some possible time in the future. Tell you what. If it ever actually gets changed then you can laugh at me all you want, say that you were right and I was wrong. But right here, right now, It has not been changed.
jaelis 05-02-06, 11:38 PM	Why would they bother to issue an errata banning the old polymorph? Who would that serve? People who don't like it now have an alternative, so they can just ban it for themselves. People who do like it will keep it anyway. Just like the RPGA rules reflect the choice made for that particular campaign. People who are just starting and don't have an opinion yet probably won't read the errata anyway. Even if they do, I don't see how banning the old polymorph would make their gaming experience better. Once they start playing with the spells, they will develop an opinion and decide from there. So I'd be very surpised if they errata'd it away. Now, come 4th ed, I suspect it will be gone, but that's another story.