Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheCobra 04-10-08, 02:15 PM	When miracle or the like to duplicate non-instantaneous spells, what does the duplicated spell count as for dispel magic and the like? For example, if you duplicate elemental body, is it a 7th-level spell or a 9th-level spell? Similarly, how would the spell appear to greater arcane sight and company? How do duplicated spells interaction with spell immunity?
Mindolin 04-10-08, 02:36 PM	Whenever you cast a spell that duplicates another spell, it is used at the level of the spell you cast, not at the level of the spell that is duplicated.
Seeker95 04-10-08, 04:56 PM	I concur with Mindolin, in case you are seeking multiple sources for consensus determination.
TheCobra 04-10-08, 06:39 PM	Sounds good. How about under detect magic, greater arcane sight, or similar spells? Would the divinations only see evocation and miracle, or would they also detect the duplicated spell?
Mindolin 04-10-08, 06:54 PM	I would say that you see only the aura of the duplicating spell, because you never actually cast the other spell, just duplicate the effects. I may be wrong, but I don't know right now.
Vegepygmy 04-11-08, 12:56 AM	...because you never actually cast the other spell, just duplicate the effects.Bingo.
runestar 04-11-08, 02:05 AM	Whenever you cast a spell that duplicates another spell, it is used at the level of the spell you cast, not at the level of the spell that is duplicated. I agree. Say you use miracle to duplicate an orb of acid spell, it is treated as a 9th lv spell, not a 4th lv spell. This would allow it to work around spell immunity or globe of invulnerability, since it only blocks out 4th lv spells (as well as its greater spell immunity counterpart, which only works on up to 8th lv spells).
TheCobra 04-11-08, 01:27 PM	So you'd only see evocation auras on someone who used miracle to buff? And only see a bunch of miracles with greater arcane sight? That wouldn't be very helpful. How about the SDA Alter Reality? Would such duplicated spells even show up to divination spells? If so, what would they look like?
Seeker95 04-11-08, 05:10 PM	So you'd only see evocation auras on someone who used miracle to buff? And only see a bunch of miracles with greater arcane sight? That wouldn't be very helpful.That would VERY helpful to the divine caster seeking to hide what buffs s/he is wearing!
TheCobra 04-11-08, 06:12 PM	That'd be nuts with spell theft. You wouldn't know what you were trying to steal. You wouldn't even know if you could steal it. How about with other spells, such as energy immunity? Do you only see the spell or also which option the caster chose?
Seeker95 04-12-08, 08:46 AM	How about with other spells, such as energy immunity? Do you only see the spell or also which option the caster chose?For me the conversation seems to have moved to the same point as when a colleague or friend keeps asking you how to spell different words for the report or essay they are writing. At some point, you have to suggest that they grab a dictionary and start looking them up on their own. In parallel, I would suggest you try devising your own answers and see if they fit with your understanding of the game and the answers you have received from us on other similar questions in this thread. Feel free to share those thoughts with us, though.
TheCobra 04-12-08, 06:30 PM	For me the conversation seems to have moved to the same point as when a colleague or friend keeps asking you how to spell different words for the report or essay they are writing. At some point, you have to suggest that they grab a dictionary and start looking them up on their own. I don't appreciate your tone and implications. If you think such insults will dissuade me form posting, you're misguided. Few, if any, of the questions I ask on these boards have obvious answers. If you don't find these questions interesting or have nothing relevant to add, don't post my threads. For example, the text of greater arcane sight proves no guidance on whether it distinguishes between an energy immunity for fire and one for acid. This spell functions like arcane sight, except that you automatically know which spells or magical effects are active upon any individual or object you see. On the other hand, the text of spell theft gives us a hint. Upon casting this spell, you instantly discern all spells currently affecting the target (including their effects). This suggests you would learn which spell a miracle was duplicating. You could use the text to argue that because greater arcane sight lacks similar wording, it only see spell names and no further. On the other hand, you could assume greater arcane sight works the same way as spell theft. As far as I can tell, the rules give very few details on how to handle spells with multiple options. Any that exist are famously vague. There have been long debates on these forums about whether you can have multiple castings of energy immunity in effect at once. So, despite your claims, Seeker95, it's not merely a matter of looking up words in a dictionary. In the future, please refrain from making inaccurate and derogatory assertions.
groveborn 04-12-08, 06:58 PM	I don't appreciate your tone and implications. If you think such insults will dissuade me form posting, you're misguided. Few, if any, of the questions I ask on these boards have obvious answers. If you don't find these questions interesting or have nothing relevant to add, don't post my threads. For example, the text of greater arcane sight proves no guidance on whether it distinguishes between an energy immunity for fire and one for acid. On the other hand, the text of spell theft gives us a hint. This suggests you would learn which spell a miracle was duplicating. You could use the text to argue that because greater arcane sight lacks similar wording, it only see spell names and no further. On the other hand, you could assume greater arcane sight works the same way as spell theft. As far as I can tell, the rules give very few details on how to handle spells with multiple options. Any that exist are famously vague. There have been long debates on these forums about whether you can have multiple castings of energy immunity in effect at once. So, despite your claims, Seeker95, it's not merely a matter of looking up words in a dictionary. In the future, please refrain from making inaccurate and derogatory assertions. I'd agree with Seeker95 on this. You've gone around asking questions without bothering to seek your own answer first. You don't ask whether or not your opinion is right at all, but rather seek ours before you even bother to understand the spells in question. If you really want help, try understanding something on your own first, then ask. A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component. This single paragraph answers all of your questions, it is in the spell description. Just look up the definition for duplication. It is not the original source, you do not cast the spell you're duplicating, you duplicate it. You cast miracle.
TheCobra 04-12-08, 08:22 PM	I'd agree with Seeker95 on this. You're both wrong. If you really want help, try understanding something on your own first, then ask. If you merely want to insult me, start your own thread for that purpose. I don't come to this board for flames. This single paragraph answers all of your questions, it is in the spell description. No, it does not. In fact, it doesn't answer any of my questions. That's why I asked in the first place. I've read the spell description many times. The passage you quoted only implies that the duplicated spell is treated as 9th level. It does not specifically address the issue. It doesn't come close to answering my other questions. Just look up the definition for duplication. Where? The term doesn't appear in my PHB glossary.
Vegepygmy 04-12-08, 09:21 PM	Just look up the definition for duplication.Where? The term doesn't appear in my PHB glossary.Well, where do you usually look up words that don't appear in your PHB glossary?
TheCobra 04-12-08, 09:27 PM	Well, where do you usually look up words that don't appear in your PHB glossary? I know the definition of the word. So? How in the world would help me decide what greater arcane sight reveals? The rules are not clear here. It's not simply a matter of looking up words, no matter how much y'all might wish it were.
groveborn 04-13-08, 03:48 AM	I know the definition of the word. So? How in the world would help me decide what greater arcane sight reveals? The rules are not clear here. It's not simply a matter of looking up words, no matter how much y'all might wish it were. And there is no problem from anyone here with you asking for a little help. You just keep asking new questions that were previously answered by the posts here. You seem to want someone else to tell you everything about the game, without bothering to read and research. In fact, you appear to have not bothered to search the forums for your answer to begin with. It's likely been asked before. As for the original problem with Seeker95's comment, it wasn't flaming. Not even close. It was a suggestion and an opinion, within the rules of posting on these forums. You over reacted poorly. You continue to react poorly. Do you see further helpful comments since? Perhaps now is a good time to bow out gracefully.
Vegepygmy 04-13-08, 01:15 PM	The rules are not clear here.Correct. That's why Seeker95's advice was actually pretty good: I would suggest you try devising your own answers and see if they fit with your understanding of the game and the answers you have received from us on other similar questions in this thread. Feel free to share those thoughts with us, though. It's not simply a matter of looking up words, no matter how much y'all might wish it were.You are correct that it is not simply a matter of looking up words. That is, however, the right place to start. I can look up the definition of "duplicate" in a dictionary and combine that with my own knowledge and understanding of the rules to arrive at sensible answers to the questions you have posted. Others here appear to have done the same. It appears as if you are, for some reason, resisting doing so yourself. If that is not so, you have the power to correct that misperception.
TheCobra 04-13-08, 02:03 PM	You just keep asking new questions that were previously answered by the posts here. Please support this assertion. If you cannot, withdraw it. You seem to want someone else to tell you everything about the game, without bothering to read and research. I've done both research and reading. I play at least once a week. If you actually have answers, provide them. As for the original problem with Seeker95's comment, it wasn't flaming. At best, it was a thinly veiled and extremely condescending insult. You over reacted poorly. You continue to react poorly. Yes, I'm not a fan of being attacked for asking rules questions. That's the purpose of this forum. Perhaps now is a good time to bow out gracefully. That's not going to happen. Correct. That's why Seeker95's advice was actually pretty good: Perhaps the advice was decent. If only it hadn't been combined with insults. Besides, his implication was that these questions have obvious answers. That contradicts what you've expressed about the subject. I can look up the definition of "duplicate" in a dictionary and combine that with my own knowledge and understanding of the rules to arrive at sensible answers to the questions you have posted. If so, why not simply answer the questions? Wouldn't that be easier than attempting to convince me I should make up my own answers? As I noted earlier, the purpose of this forum is to discuss the rules on magic. Telling people to quietly determine their own interpretations undermines the entire medium. If wanted to merely do whatever I felt like, I'd do that. Instead, I want the most correct interpretation. Honestly, this is the strangest thread response I've ever gotten around these parts. If you don't feel like answering the questions because you believe they're too obvious (or for whatever reason), don't. Sometimes it isn't worth the effort. That's fine. That's standard. This, on the hand, is bizarre.
Seeker95 04-13-08, 05:42 PM	Cobra, I truly meant no offense in my post. Although you took offense, I do not believe I gave any. However, you have in at least two posts now accused me of insulting you. What did I offer that is an insult? If it is an insult, I will apologize for delivering it. If it is merely something you have taken as an insult, I will either explain myself more clearly or change the boundaries of language with which it would appear you will permit.
TheCobra 04-13-08, 07:22 PM	Apparently for the purpose for ending my questions, you described me as resembling an annoying, parasitic associate unable or unwilling to do their own work. That's insulting for obvious reasons. It's also inaccurate. In the situation you describe, the victim isn't interested in discussing spelling with essay writer. This forum is specifically for discussion on the magic rules. In any case, I'm more interested in analyzing the rules than sparring with you and your defenders. Forgetting the whole diversion would be ideal.
Seeker95 04-13-08, 10:10 PM	Apparently for the purpose for ending my questions, you described me as resembling an annoying, parasitic associate unable or unwilling to do their own work.I have read my post three times, and I cannot find the words annoying, parasitic, unable, or unwilling. If you insist on continuing to take offense, I am at a loss in how to otherwise convince you that such an interpretation is unnecessary.
TheCobra 04-13-08, 10:17 PM	As a board veteran, I'm sure you recognize how difficult it can be to convince a person to abandon their interpretation. Are any other posters willing to share original research about duplicated spells? I know it's a lot to ask, especially considering these boards are specifically for the purpose of discussing magic rules. I'd say spell theft would see both miracle and the spell it duplicates. I don't know about greater arcane sight.
groveborn 04-13-08, 10:40 PM	For me the conversation seems to have moved to the same point as when a colleague or friend keeps asking you how to spell different words for the report or essay they are writing. At some point, you have to suggest that they grab a dictionary and start looking them up on their own. It seems to me that this was an observation that you were asking too many questions without seeking your own answers by reading. It's advice. This may be the reason you are unable to figure these things out for yourself, you read more than is there, or fail to see what is. Read what is written, not what you think is meant. Written words do not convey intention.
TheCobra 04-13-08, 10:45 PM	I'm going to have to quote myself. As I noted earlier, the purpose of this forum is to discuss the rules on magic. Telling people to quietly determine their own interpretations undermines the entire medium. What's so offensive to you about asking these questions?