Post/Author/DateTime	Post
northern_bear 04-06-07, 09:15 AM	If the center of an area effect spell is brought inside an antimagic area, is the entire spell supressed, or only the portion of the spell that overlaps with the area of antimagic. Examples: A dagger with the darkness spell cast on it "radiates shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius". If the dagger is inside an antimagic field, does the darkness cease to radiate outwords, supressing the entire darkness effect? Or is it still dark beyond the area of the antimagic effect. Invisibility sphere affects an area of "10-ft.-radius emanation around the creature or object touched". If the creature or object in question enters an antimagic field, is the entire effect surpressed, or do things beyond the antimagic field, and still within 10 feet of the center of effect, remain invisible? Can a wizard who has an antimagic field around himself supress an entire zone of truth, dimensional lock area, repulsion effect, hallowed area, or similar spell affecting a radius of more than 10 feet, simply by moving to the center of the effect? A fireball has a 20 foot radius spread. If the detenation point is inside an antimagic field, is the entire spell supressed, or is the area inside the field protected while the area outside the field still gets blasted with fire.
tarkin 04-06-07, 12:04 PM	1. No magic exists inside the area. 2. Any magical source that enters the area is surpressed for the duration. So: When the dagger is NEXT to the field, the field area itself is not in magical darkness, but the darkness does exist outside the field. If the creature that is the center of the Invisibility sphere is just outside the anti-magic, his friends are visibile when they enter the anti-magic. If the fireball seed blows up next to the area, people inside are safe, but people outside are not. When the dagger enters the field, the entire area of darkness is surpressed. If the creature that is the center of the Invisibility Sphere enters the anti-magic, everyone becomes visibile, even his friends that never entered the anti-magic. If the fireball seed enters the area, everyone is safe, there is no fireball explosion.
northern_bear 04-06-07, 01:57 PM	Thanks Tarkin, this is what I feel should happen. But are you aware of anything official that clarifies this. I still feel as though the RAW are somewhat ambigous.
Kursk 04-06-07, 02:32 PM	Thanks Tarkin, this is what I feel should happen. But are you aware of anything official that clarifies this. I still feel as though the RAW are somewhat ambigous. What Tarkin wrote is based on the spell description. You can't list every spell within that spell description. But, it is obvious what the effects are based on the AM spell descrip.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 02:55 PM	What about an effect that has an area so large that it can stretch across the entire Antimagic Field? For example if someone casts Daylight right next to (but not inside) an Antimagic Field, does the globe light up the area directly on the other side of the Antimagic Field from it? (I'm considering the Daylight to be an Emanation here. If you don't think it is, just replace it with some Emanation spell with a large enough area.) I know the Sage ruled that AMF blocks Line of Effect. If you buy this, then it should block most spells, including the Daylight in the example. I don't think that is explicitly stated in the rules anywhere, though. What do other people think of this?
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:00 PM	What about an effect that has an area so large that it can stretch across the entire Antimagic Field? For example if someone casts Daylight right next to (but not inside) an Antimagic Field, does the globe light up the area directly on the other side of the Antimagic Field from it? (I'm considering the Daylight to be an Emanation here. If you don't think it is, just replace it with some Emanation spell with a large enough area.) I know the Sage ruled that AMF blocks Line of Effect. If you buy this, then it should block most spells, including the Daylight in the example. I don't think that is explicitly stated in the rules anywhere, though. What do other people think of this? The light that emanated from outside the AMF would be visible inside as it's light. It wouldn't emanate from within the AMF though.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:02 PM	The light that emanated from outside the AMF would be visible inside as it's light. It wouldn't emanate from within the AMF though.Ok... pick another spell as an example. I guess that was a terrible one... How about a Widened Antilife Shell, instead of Daylight?
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:04 PM	Ok... pick another spell as an example. I guess that was a terrible one... How about a Widened Antilife Shell, instead of Daylight? What about it? It's area of effect wouldn't include the area of the AMF. That's easy.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:11 PM	Let me try to be more specific.... Burst, Emanation, or Spread Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point. A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes. So, if you block the source of an emanation somehow, like with a solid object, you block its line of effect, and the area on the other side of the cover is not affected by it. So the specific question is: do you think Antimagic Field should block Line of Effect? If the point of origin of an Emanation spell is centered on one side of the Antimagic Field, and the Emanation is large enough that it's area would extend past the other side of the Antimagic Field, would it function on the other side, or be blocked? The Sage said AMF blocks line of effect, and so the spell would be blocked, but that leads to crazy possibilities, like an Archmage running around with a donut shaped Antimagic Field on him (via Master of Shaping) that lets his own personal spells function while blocking most spells cast at him.
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:17 PM	Let me try to be more specific.... So the specific question is: do you think Antimagic Field should block Line of Effect? Yes, that's how it works. The Sage said AMF blocks line of effect, and so the spell would be blocked, but that leads to crazy possibilities, like an Archmage running around with a donut shaped Antimagic Field on him (via Master of Shaping) that lets his own personal spells function while blocking most spells cast at him. "Master of shaping" I'm not familiar with so it's not CORE. It you wanted to violate CORE RAW I guess his personal effect spells (Bulls Strength) would be in operation. But, he wouldn't be able to cast through or out of the AMF.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:21 PM	Yes, that's how it works.That's how the "Sage" says it works. I don't think the rules actually say one way or the other. I'm just wondering what other people think of it. I know some don't like it."Master of shaping" I'm not familiar with so it's not CORE. It you wanted to violate CORE RAW I guess his personal effect spells (Bulls Strength) would be in operation. But, he wouldn't be able to cast through or out of the AMF.It is Core. It is part of the Archmage class, in the DMG.
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:27 PM	It is Core. It is part of the Archmage class, in the DMG. I thought you were referring to a PrC called Spell Shaper. Yes, if you want to burn a 6th level spell slot you could create a donut. The cost offsets the benefit though and as I stated your offensive ability is pretty crippled. That is, if your DM allows the Arch Mage optional PrC.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:36 PM	I thought you were referring to a PrC called Spell Shaper. Yes, if you want to burn a 6th level spell slot you could create a donut. The cost offsets the benefit though and as I stated your offensive ability is pretty crippled.Ha! Hahaha! HA! How about: Stoneskin + Tenser's Transformation + Polymorph on a Fighter1/Wiz6/Eldritch Knight 5/Archmage2? I don't think his offensive power is too crippled. This is entirely core only, and only at level 14. It gets alot worse once you throw in Shapechange. Even a straight wizard/archmage could beat most stuff down in melee like that, particularly other casters.
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:38 PM	Ha! Hahaha! HA! How about: Stoneskin + Tenser's Transformation + Polymorph on a Fighter1/Wiz6/Eldritch Knight 5/Archmage2? I don't think his offensive power is too crippled. This is entirely core only, and only at level 14. It gets alot worse once you throw in Shapechange. Even a straight wizard/archmage could beat most stuff down in melee like that, particularly other casters. So if the enemy stays in the AMF area of effect what are you going to do? :eek:
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:40 PM	So if the enemy stays in the AMF area of effect what are you going to do? :eek:That's the idea. You beat/stab them to death. You WANT them in the AMF area. If you use a reach weapon, you certainly should have no problem hitting them while staying inside the "donut" yourself, even if your DM is picky, and says you couldn't with a normal weapon.
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:43 PM	That's the idea. You beat/stab them to death. Without the aid of ANY magic items or effects. So, why cast AMF? All you've done is stripped down magic from both sides and taken your spellcasters out of the equation. The enemy just keeps out of reach. I think you need to work on your tactics a bit. ;)
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:46 PM	Without the aid of ANY magic items or effects. So, why cast AMF? All you've done is stripped down magic from both sides and taken your spellcasters out of the equation. The enemy just keeps out of reach. I think you need to work on your tactics a bit. ;)HOLY CRAP YOU'RE DENSE! Did we not just talk about the fact that the caster is in the "donut" in the center, and that all magical effects on him are in place? MY TACTICS? My god... Ok, I give up. Jesus H. Christ. I swear I could write C. A. T. in front of you, and you'd say it spelled DOG. Yeah, it would supress any magic powers on his actual weapon. Who gives a crap? With his enemy's magic items and spells nullified, and his own buffs STILL FULLY FUNCTIONAL he could stab them to death with a pointy stick!
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:51 PM	HOLY CRAP YOU'RE DENSE! Did we not just talk about the fact that the caster is in the "donut" in the center, and that all magical effects on him are in place? MY TACTICS? My god... Ok, I give up. Jesus H. Christ. I swear I could write C. A. T. in front of you, and you'd say it spelled DOG. IT DOESN"T MATTER if the caster has effects on him. The exclusion area is 5'. THE FIGHTER CAN"T OPERATE IN THE SAME 5' SPACE AS THE CASTER SO HE IS IN THE AMF! Learn to read spell descriptions. GOD.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 03:54 PM	Amazing... You still don't comprehend what I'm talking about. It is absolutely mind-boggling.
Kursk 04-06-07, 03:55 PM	Amazing... You still don't comprehend what I'm talking about. Have a nice life. I guess not. I can only go by the limits of the spell. You obviously are talking about s/g else.
mvincent 04-06-07, 03:57 PM	Here's what the 3.0 FAQ says: "Does an antimagic field suppress a spell effect at the point of origin or the area of effect? For instance, if I cast silence on myself and then cast antimagic field (assuming I have the Silent Spell feat), would the entire silence spell be suppressed (because it’s centered on me), or just the 10-foot radius surrounding me, leaving a 5-foot ring of silence around the outside of the antimagic field? It depends on the spell. Silence is an emanation, so the whole effect is suppressed if the point from which the effect emanates is inside the antimagic field. With an area spell, only the part of the area that is within the antimagic field is suppressed. Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field. For example, if you brought the antimagic field into a fog cloud effect, only the portion of the fog cloud that is within the antimagic field would be suppressed. On the other hand, if you cast antimagic field in a corridor 10 feet wide, the fog cloud effect could not spread past the antimagic field. Note that a spread effect will flow around an antimagic field if it has space to do so, just as it would spread around any other barrier."
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:05 PM	I guess not. I can only go by the limits of the spell. You obviously are talking about s/g else. Kursk, he's not talking about buffing his fighter, he's talking about buffing *himself*. You play a gish build that can achieve Archmage. You buff yourself with melee boosters. You cast a donut-shaped AMF so that you and only you are outside the AMF. Now you've got magical buffs and everyone who's attacking you is a mundane melee assailant. You wipe the floor with them. What's so hard to understand about this?
mvincent 04-06-07, 04:07 PM	IT DOESN"T MATTER if the caster has effects on him. The exclusion area is 5'. THE FIGHTER CAN"T OPERATE IN THE SAME 5' SPACE AS THE CASTER SO HE IS IN THE AMF! To clarify: the above mentioned scenario involves an archmage that is also a fighter (i.e. a fighter-mage 'gish' build), operating by himself against opponents that are possibly using magic. The doughnut tactic allows this fighter/mage to be buffed, while debuffing any opponents next to him (and also preventing hostile spells from targeting him), making him very powerful in melee.
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:08 PM	Although I'm not sure what the Mastery of Shaping ability's stuff about "minimum dimension" is. If it actually means it halves the possible volume of a spell (i.e. 5 ft/caster level instead of 10 ft/caster level) then it makes it impossible to use it with AMF, because AMF never has a radius greater than 10 ft, period (so if you tried to shape it, the now 5-ft radius of AMF coincides with the 5-ft radius of the hole). However, I'm not sure this is what it actually means. Someone enlighten me?
Kursk 04-06-07, 04:10 PM	Kursk, he's not talking about buffing his fighter, he's talking about buffing *himself*. You play a gish build that can achieve Archmage. You buff yourself with melee boosters. You cast a donut-shaped AMF so that you and only you are outside the AMF. Now you've got magical buffs and everyone who's attacking you is a mundane melee assailant. You wipe the floor with them. What's so hard to understand about this? And then you get surrounded at a 15' radius and they wait you out. I guess it works on suicidal attackers with no intelligence.
mvincent 04-06-07, 04:15 PM	And then you get surrounded at a 15' radius and they wait you out. [Yakov Smirnoff] In Russia, Gish-build comes to you [/Yakov Smirnoff]
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:19 PM	And then you get surrounded at a 15' radius and they wait you out. I guess it works on suicidal attackers with no intelligence. "Suicidal attackers with no intelligence" describes a lot of monsters in the MM. Also, AMF is an *emanation*, not an area, meaning it moves with you. Meaning you can, y'know, move and attack. "They can just refuse to close with you until it wears off" is a criticism that can be applied to *any* strategy that involves buffs. AMF has a duration of 10 min/lvl. It's not going to run out any time soon. If the gish can keep you pinned down inside a confined area, you're hamburger. Face it, Phaedrus found a good strategy that actually makes AMF *useful* but can only be used at high levels. Why go on a tear trying to nerf it?
ArcTan 04-06-07, 04:20 PM	[Yakov Smirnoff] In Russia, Gish-build comes to you [/Yakov Smirnoff] Heh, put it better than I did.
Kursk 04-06-07, 04:48 PM	"Suicidal attackers with no intelligence" describes a lot of monsters in the MM. Also, AMF is an *emanation*, not an area, meaning it moves with you. Meaning you can, y'know, move and attack. "They can just refuse to close with you until it wears off" is a criticism that can be applied to *any* strategy that involves buffs. AMF has a duration of 10 min/lvl. It's not going to run out any time soon. If the gish can keep you pinned down inside a confined area, you're hamburger. Face it, Phaedrus found a good strategy that actually makes AMF *useful* but can only be used at high levels. Why go on a tear trying to nerf it? Like I said. it IS useful when facing a stupid enemy. Against that I wouldn't "nerf it". Against intelligent opponents it just postpones the inevitable while wasting spells.
mvincent 04-06-07, 04:56 PM	Against intelligent opponents it just postpones the inevitable while wasting spells.It is a rare opponent indeed that can keep away from a wizard that is determined to get next to him. Are you really not getting this? And are you genuinely not getting that you are not getting this?
Kursk 04-06-07, 05:00 PM	It is a rare opponent indeed that can keep away from a wizard that is determined to get next to him. Are you really not getting this? And are you genuinely not getting that you are not getting this? I guess I play in a tougher campaign than you. A wizard trying to round around like a chicken with his head cut off and corral up a bunch of opponents into one small space just doesn't strike fear in my heart.
PhaedrusXY 04-06-07, 05:15 PM	I guess I play in a tougher campaign than you. A wizard trying to round around like a chicken with his head cut off and corral up a bunch of opponents into one small space just doesn't strike fear in my heart.He doesn't have to "corral" them. All he has to do is walk/fly up next to them, and hit them. The AMF moves with him.
Kursk 04-06-07, 05:19 PM	He doesn't have to "corral" them. All he has to do is walk/fly up next to them, and hit them. The AMF moves with him. So, he chases one guy down, if he can move faster, and hits him. And the other opponents patiently wait their turn. Too scary for me. I'm outa here. ;)
mvincent 04-06-07, 05:24 PM	I guess I play in a tougher campaign than you. No. You do not. Now you must be mocked: Perhaps your persistent misunderstandings just make it seem harder for everyone involved? I can testify that merely explaining something to you was pretty darn tough. Has your group been forced to "go all Epic on your AC" yet? Have they noted the irony of your Sig?
ArcTan 04-06-07, 05:28 PM	So, he chases one guy down, if he can move faster, and hits him. Well, yes. That is, in fact, how being a melee fighter works. And the other opponents patiently wait their turn. They can try to attack, if they like, but they have the AMF to contend with. Magic attacks fail -- their best bet is ranged weapons. Foes with reach can try to use it, but the AMF suppresses the magic on their weapon when they reach through it. (Yes, the AMF rules for reach are confusing, but this is the one most strongly implied by the text.) Too scary for me. I'm outa here. ;) I don't get it. What's the huge problem with this tactic? It makes the Wizard into a buffed meleer whose melee opponets will all be unbuffed. That's really damn good, if not optimized compared to spamming save-or-dies or area damage spells. It's a cool trick to play at high levels. I can see a lot of strategies that might work against it, but none that are crippling or make it useless. An intelligent Wizard using this tactic will be able to counter most intelligent ideas you can think of. It depends on how you rule teleportation works through AMFs, but a Wizard in this situation could conceivably use dimension door to deal with mobility issues, to say nothing of haste and fly. Someone who managed to figure out how to accomplish this while also gaining access to Tome of Battle's maneuvers, most of which are (Ex), could be truly scary.
ArcTan 04-06-07, 05:33 PM	No. You do not. Now you must be mocked: Perhaps your persistent misunderstandings just make it seem harder for everyone involved? I can testify that merely explaining something to you was pretty darn tough. Has your group been forced to "go all Epic on your AC" yet? Have they noted the irony of your Sig? ...Yeah, I like how Kursk kind of sidled past to talking about why this tactic was ineffective due to mobility issues without ever actually fessing up to how dense he was being, just parroting the standard "AMF sucks because it's centered on you" argument without realizing that the point of the Archmage spellshaping ability is to CHANGE THAT. (What the hell do you think the POINT of a "donut-shaped" emanation is if not to force other people to deal with the spell while you remain unaffected?)
northern_bear 04-10-07, 09:30 AM	. . .I know the Sage ruled that AMF blocks Line of Effect. . . OK, there was the actual official ruling that I was looking for. Thanks. (Do you have a link to that ruling? I couldn't find it in FAQ.) As for the Antimagic donut, a bit off topic, but interesting discusion.
northern_bear 04-10-07, 09:39 AM	As long as we are off topic though, let's continue. The Archmage's antimagic donut is awsomely powerful. Granted, you have to be high level to qualify for Archmage. But once you do, this is an extraordinarily good strategy. To clarify for Krusk: Archmage buffs himself, turning himself into an incredible melee combat machine. There's a huge number of useful buffing spells, but some of the most useful would include stuff like polymorph, haste, and improved invisibility. Then he casts his antimagic field, but uses his archmage class feature to leave a hole in the center of the AMF that is not affected by the anti magic field. Because the AMF is not active in the center, and because he happens to be in the center, he is not affected by the AMF, and all his personal buffs still work. Then he runs/flies over to beside the enemy fighter. Enemy fighter is now 5 feet away. Which means the enemy is in the area which is being affected by the wizards AMF. Enemy looses all benefits from buffing spells, magic armour, magic weapons, etc. Meanwhile, the wizard still has all his buffs working. The buffed up wizard proceeds to anialate the enemy fighter (or whoever) which has been stripped of its magical protections. And oh yes, the AMF is also simultaneously protecting the wizard from any other magical attacks from outside the AMF. = Awsome strategy.
northern_bear 04-10-07, 09:45 AM	An interesting side question, would an AMF donut equate to unbeatable invisibility? Wizard with an active AMF donut turns invisible. Opponents may have detect invisibility active, but the AMF blocks their line of sight to the invisible opponent. Or to put it more simply: Is an invisible creature detectable via the see invisibility spell, if there happens to be an AMF between the viewer and the invisible creature? (neither of them are actually in the AMF, it just happens to be between them, blocking line of effect)
PhaedrusXY 04-10-07, 10:13 AM	OK, there was the actual official ruling that I was looking for. Thanks. (Do you have a link to that ruling? I couldn't find it in FAQ.) As for the Antimagic donut, a bit off topic, but interesting discusion.It was in a Rules of the Game article, but he stated it as if it were fact, not a house rule. The actual rules are silent on this, I think. Anyway, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) is the link, and here is the relevant excerpt: Antimagic: A spell's magical effects become nonfunctional within an area of antimagic, such as an antimagic field. When a spell is aimed into an area of antimagic from somewhere outside the area, the antimagic blocks line of effect for the spell and the spell most likely fails. If the spell doesn't produce any sort of visible display or manifestation that the caster (or other witness to the event) can perceive, then there's no clue as to why the spell failed or even that it has failed. If the blocked spell has a target entry, however, the caster will not note any failed or successful saving throws in response to the spell (see Part Two) and that in itself might alert the caster to something amiss. If the spell's effects are visible (for example, a lightning bolt or magic missile spell -- at least when I'm the DM), the spell's visible effects stop where they meet the area of antimagic. Anyone who sees the spell being blocked can attempt a DC 26 Spellcraft check to realize that antimagic has blocked the spell. When a spellcaster is inside an antimagic area, any spells she casts are suppressed. Such spells don't actually fail unless their durations are instantaneous. Spells with longer durations are suppressed until the caster somehow leaves the antimagic area (though time spent within the antimagic area counts against the spell's duration). If the caster isn't aware she's in an antimagic area, handle the situation in the same way you'd handle it if the caster has aimed a spell into the antimagic area from outside.
mvincent 04-10-07, 12:24 PM	It was in a Rules of the Game articleYup. It was also in the 3.0 FAQ (still valid here): "Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field."
ArcTan 04-10-07, 03:07 PM	The main thing I'm interested in is that, technically, you could make the argument that if you surround an area completely with overlapping AMFs (you don't need spellcasters to stand there for there -- Stronghold Builder's Guide and Dungeonscape both include rules for building location-centered AMFs as traps or defenses) the area inside the AMF is immune to teleports, because no magic can "go through" the AMFs. This is a somewhat wonky ruling, true, but it has been used in official sources before -- Keith Baker's Eberron setting contains a prison described in Dragon Magazine that prevents magical teleportation by surrounding the prison with permanent AMFs. Personally I wouldn't mind this being a houserule, if only to frustrate high-level players addicted to the trick of scryporting.
mvincent 04-10-07, 03:46 PM	area inside the AMF is immune to teleports, because no magic can "go through" the AMFs.That appears to be incorrect. Teleports do not require line of site, and indeed do not technically even go 'through' the AMF's. Instead, teleportation instantly transports you to the astral plane, then back... in another location. Keith Baker's Eberron setting contains a prison described in Dragon Magazine that prevents magical teleportation by surrounding the prison with permanent AMFs.That goes against D&D 'physics'. Can anyone verify this? If not, I'll try to check that out later. Maybe it also has dimension barriers along with the AMF's?
PhaedrusXY 04-10-07, 10:16 PM	Teleport doesn't need Line of Effect. You go into another plane of existence (the Astral), move through that plane, and then come out into the material plane again at another point. Otherwise, you couldn't even teleport through a natural stone wall (Solid objects block Line of Effect).
northern_bear 04-11-07, 06:33 AM	I agree. You can't teleport into an antimagic area, but you can teleport to the other side of one, since to do so you don't actually have to move "through" it.