Antilife Shell oddities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Antilife Shell oddities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Himjana
06-30-06, 06:01 AM Hi :)

Since i recently started to use the antilife shell spell on my favored soul our group has encountered some oddities in the rulings regarding that spell. We looked through the dmg and erratas but couldnt find anything that solves the problem.

Since antilife shell is a 10ft radius emanation spell (phb 199) and all area spells must have its origin at a grid intersection (phb 175) and the antilife shell's area of effect emanates from a point centered on the caster a medium sized character who casts antilife shell whould have to select one of the four grid intersections closest to him.

If that is correct, lets make an example where the caster selects the square intersection left in front of him.

_ .. square not effected by antilife shell
# .. square effected by antilife shell
C .. caster
E .. enemy

______
__##__
_####_
_##C#_
__##E_
______

Ok so you see where this is going right?

Now we could argue that the sword-arm of the enemy is part of his 5ft reach and therefore he cant attack the caster.
But how about a 10ft. reach weapon like with a longspear? And would the enemy have to be on the "right side" of the caster to attack him with the longspear so he doesnt need to penetrate the antilife shell with his arms?

Is a "10ft. emanation centered on you" a point in space inside the character from where it emanates or does the character itself emanate the spell reaching out 10ft. from him?

And still with a 10ft. reach area being rectangular and a 10ft. emanation being circular there still is the possibility to hit the caster if positioned correctly.

If the emanation is at a point in space within the character the spell would become completely useless for bigger sized creatures if they are bigger than the emanation.

Edit:

How is the spell intended to work? Which rules do apply and which do not?
Where would be the right place to ask to get an official reply?
tarkin
06-30-06, 11:16 AM When the spell says "centered on you", that negates the rule on page 175 about area spells centered on an intersection.

You are correct, that this will make the spell unuseable by extremely large creatures.

Similarly, spells such such as Enlarge Person are useless for a Dragon because they are not humanoids so don't qualify for them.
Himjana
06-30-06, 11:45 AM If the center of the emanation isnt a grid intersection, how would this look on the battle grid then?

_ .. square not effected by antilife shell
# .. square effected by antilife shell
C .. caster
E .. enemy
F .. enemy2

_______
__###__
_#####_
_##C##F
_#####_
__###E_
_______

Wouldnt this be a 12.5ft. radius emanation then?
Is there any reference if squares can be half-occupied by spell-effects?
Could E still attack C with a 10ft. reach weapon and vice versa?
In my eyes it doesnt make sense if he could because F cant and it would be strange if you could do it if only you stand on the right square ;)
TheGogmagog
06-30-06, 12:03 PM No, it eminates from you, all sides of you (which on a combat grid is a 5'x5' square. So it's more like a donut starting at the edge of your square, without the wole.

Also think of 10' emination as anywhere you can move with 10' of movement.

That's also a quick easy way of determining who is in an area of effect. Select the target, radius, and if you can move to them (or move to envelop them in the case of spells centered on intersections) then they are hit. It saves sketching out the areas of all your spells on the combat grid.
Himjana
06-30-06, 12:11 PM If it would start at the edge of the caster this would bring us the the question with bigger sized characters?

Would a large size caster emanate like this?

______
__##__
_#CC#_
_#CC#_
__##E_
______

or rather like this?

________
__####__
_######_
_##CC##_
_##CC##_
_######_
__####E_
________
kjenks
06-30-06, 12:25 PM Apparently, spell areas are always corner-to-corner calculations, like this:

SRD
===
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
===
Antilife Shell
Abjuration
Level: Animal 6, Clr 6, Drd 6
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
===

But how about a 10ft. reach weapon like with a longspear? And would the enemy have to be on the "right side" of the caster to attack him with the longspear so he doesnt need to penetrate the antilife shell with his arms?

Yes, as you can see from your diagram, an enemy with 10 ft. reach could attack you from many different squares. Not only can the enemy attack you from your square labeled E, but also from other squares I've labeled with a lower-case e.

__##e_
_####e
_##C#e
_e##Ee
__eeee

Reach weapons are not subject to the 5 ft.-10 ft.-5 ft. rule, so they actually have a slightly longer reach than the 10 ft. emanation.

But if a size medium enemy has a regular old reach weapon, he can't actually attack C from E since C is adjacent to E. He'd need a whip, spiked chain or natural reach.

Natural reach is a little problematic for Antilife Shell. It's really clear that living creatures can't enter the squares affected by the spell, but it's less clear if they can reach in with a natural or manufactured weapon. I think most reasonable DMs would prevent living creatures from reaching into the area of the spell, but the spell actually says, "You bring into being a mobile, hemispherical energy field that prevents the entrance of most types of living creatures." Entering the field is different from reaching into the field.
Witchblade
06-30-06, 07:22 PM Read Tarkin's post Kjenks. The spell overrules that.

Common sense says the same. It would be needlessly complicated to use Kjenk's ruling.
kjenks
07-01-06, 08:54 AM When the spell says "centered on you", that negates the rule on page 175 about area spells centered on an intersection.

What rule says that "centered on you" has this effect? I can't find it.
Himjana
07-03-06, 11:20 AM What rule says that "centered on you" has this effect? I can't find it.

Thats exactly why i posted it here. I had hoped that someone could tell me where to get an official answer.

But to continue with the opinions: i've checked the spell "Zone of Silence". It has an "Area: 5-ft.-radius emanation centered on you" and its text reads: "... This effect is centered on you and moves with you. Anyone who enters the zone immediately becomes subject to its effects, but those who leave are no longer affected. ..."

If the emanation would emanate from a point in space and not from the whole caster this spell would only affect four squares (which is perfectly possible).

Edit:

If the emanation emanates from a point in space and not from the creature itself this spell could be fun on a huge sized creature.
"tap --- tap --- tap --- tap ..."
player: shhh .. *listens* .. its a one-legged giant. we can take him!
kjenks
07-04-06, 09:13 AM Thats exactly why i posted it here. I had hoped that someone could tell me where to get an official answer.

Since this isn't covered in the FAQ or errata, the only official answer is what we can read in the PH: emanation spells are centered on grid intersections. Tarkin says that rule is negated in this situation, but I can't find any support in the rules for his opinion (and he hasn't replied yet).

Talk to your DM about it, show him this thread and let him decide. That's as official an answer as you really need.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Himjana 06-30-06, 06:01 AM	Hi :) Since i recently started to use the antilife shell spell on my favored soul our group has encountered some oddities in the rulings regarding that spell. We looked through the dmg and erratas but couldnt find anything that solves the problem. Since antilife shell is a 10ft radius emanation spell (phb 199) and all area spells must have its origin at a grid intersection (phb 175) and the antilife shell's area of effect emanates from a point centered on the caster a medium sized character who casts antilife shell whould have to select one of the four grid intersections closest to him. If that is correct, lets make an example where the caster selects the square intersection left in front of him. _ .. square not effected by antilife shell # .. square effected by antilife shell C .. caster E .. enemy ______ __##__ _####_ _##C#_ __##E_ ______ Ok so you see where this is going right? Now we could argue that the sword-arm of the enemy is part of his 5ft reach and therefore he cant attack the caster. But how about a 10ft. reach weapon like with a longspear? And would the enemy have to be on the "right side" of the caster to attack him with the longspear so he doesnt need to penetrate the antilife shell with his arms? Is a "10ft. emanation centered on you" a point in space inside the character from where it emanates or does the character itself emanate the spell reaching out 10ft. from him? And still with a 10ft. reach area being rectangular and a 10ft. emanation being circular there still is the possibility to hit the caster if positioned correctly. If the emanation is at a point in space within the character the spell would become completely useless for bigger sized creatures if they are bigger than the emanation. Edit: How is the spell intended to work? Which rules do apply and which do not? Where would be the right place to ask to get an official reply?
tarkin 06-30-06, 11:16 AM	When the spell says "centered on you", that negates the rule on page 175 about area spells centered on an intersection. You are correct, that this will make the spell unuseable by extremely large creatures. Similarly, spells such such as Enlarge Person are useless for a Dragon because they are not humanoids so don't qualify for them.
Himjana 06-30-06, 11:45 AM	If the center of the emanation isnt a grid intersection, how would this look on the battle grid then? _ .. square not effected by antilife shell # .. square effected by antilife shell C .. caster E .. enemy F .. enemy2 _______ __###__ _#####_ _##C##F _#####_ __###E_ _______ Wouldnt this be a 12.5ft. radius emanation then? Is there any reference if squares can be half-occupied by spell-effects? Could E still attack C with a 10ft. reach weapon and vice versa? In my eyes it doesnt make sense if he could because F cant and it would be strange if you could do it if only you stand on the right square ;)
TheGogmagog 06-30-06, 12:03 PM	No, it eminates from you, all sides of you (which on a combat grid is a 5'x5' square. So it's more like a donut starting at the edge of your square, without the wole. Also think of 10' emination as anywhere you can move with 10' of movement. That's also a quick easy way of determining who is in an area of effect. Select the target, radius, and if you can move to them (or move to envelop them in the case of spells centered on intersections) then they are hit. It saves sketching out the areas of all your spells on the combat grid.
Himjana 06-30-06, 12:11 PM	If it would start at the edge of the caster this would bring us the the question with bigger sized characters? Would a large size caster emanate like this? ______ __##__ _#CC#_ _#CC#_ __##E_ ______ or rather like this? ________ __####__ _######_ _##CC##_ _##CC##_ _######_ __####E_ ________
kjenks 06-30-06, 12:25 PM	Apparently, spell areas are always corner-to-corner calculations, like this: SRD === Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point. A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes. === Antilife Shell Abjuration Level: Animal 6, Clr 6, Drd 6 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 round Range: 10 ft. Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you === But how about a 10ft. reach weapon like with a longspear? And would the enemy have to be on the "right side" of the caster to attack him with the longspear so he doesnt need to penetrate the antilife shell with his arms? Yes, as you can see from your diagram, an enemy with 10 ft. reach could attack you from many different squares. Not only can the enemy attack you from your square labeled E, but also from other squares I've labeled with a lower-case e. __##e_ _####e _##C#e _e##Ee __eeee Reach weapons are not subject to the 5 ft.-10 ft.-5 ft. rule, so they actually have a slightly longer reach than the 10 ft. emanation. But if a size medium enemy has a regular old reach weapon, he can't actually attack C from E since C is adjacent to E. He'd need a whip, spiked chain or natural reach. Natural reach is a little problematic for Antilife Shell. It's really clear that living creatures can't enter the squares affected by the spell, but it's less clear if they can reach in with a natural or manufactured weapon. I think most reasonable DMs would prevent living creatures from reaching into the area of the spell, but the spell actually says, "You bring into being a mobile, hemispherical energy field that prevents the entrance of most types of living creatures." Entering the field is different from reaching into the field.
Witchblade 06-30-06, 07:22 PM	Read Tarkin's post Kjenks. The spell overrules that. Common sense says the same. It would be needlessly complicated to use Kjenk's ruling.
kjenks 07-01-06, 08:54 AM	When the spell says "centered on you", that negates the rule on page 175 about area spells centered on an intersection. What rule says that "centered on you" has this effect? I can't find it.
Himjana 07-03-06, 11:20 AM	What rule says that "centered on you" has this effect? I can't find it. Thats exactly why i posted it here. I had hoped that someone could tell me where to get an official answer. But to continue with the opinions: i've checked the spell "Zone of Silence". It has an "Area: 5-ft.-radius emanation centered on you" and its text reads: "... This effect is centered on you and moves with you. Anyone who enters the zone immediately becomes subject to its effects, but those who leave are no longer affected. ..." If the emanation would emanate from a point in space and not from the whole caster this spell would only affect four squares (which is perfectly possible). Edit: If the emanation emanates from a point in space and not from the creature itself this spell could be fun on a huge sized creature. "tap --- tap --- tap --- tap ..." player: shhh .. listens .. its a one-legged giant. we can take him!
kjenks 07-04-06, 09:13 AM	Thats exactly why i posted it here. I had hoped that someone could tell me where to get an official answer. Since this isn't covered in the FAQ or errata, the only official answer is what we can read in the PH: emanation spells are centered on grid intersections. Tarkin says that rule is negated in this situation, but I can't find any support in the rules for his opinion (and he hasn't replied yet). Talk to your DM about it, show him this thread and let him decide. That's as official an answer as you really need.