Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goawayugh 01-26-06, 03:36 PM	if i cast antimagic on myself and then a dragon breaths fire on me would the fire go around the antimagic (since it is a supernatural ability) or would it hit (since it originated outside the field)? basiclly what i'm asking is if the fire itself is supernatural or just the act of creating it.
Mirtek 01-26-06, 03:41 PM	The breath weapon would be unable to affect the area of the AMF, but would anything not covered by the AMF. If the dragon were within the AMF, he couldn't use his breath weapon at all. (Su) effects ignore spell resistance, they are affected by antimagic just like spells.
Wilds 01-26-06, 04:06 PM	Even though thats the rules. It makes no sense to me how fire can be stopped by an anti-magic field
cwslyclgh 01-26-06, 04:08 PM	the same could be said of the fireball spell... but few would argue that that should not be blocked.
Esponer 01-26-06, 04:09 PM	Even though thats the rules. It makes no sense to me how fire can be stopped by an anti-magic field Think of it not as fire, but as magical unstable ectoplasm being held together (and held in the Material plane) by magical force and propelled outwards by magical force. If magic cannot function, the unstable ectoplasm winks out, as it returns to the unreality from whence it came. ...Works for me. Bear in mind that a fireball-type spell really isn't throwing fire as we know it. It can't be.
Seeker95 01-26-06, 05:29 PM	Even though thats the rules. It makes no sense to me how fire can be stopped by an anti-magic fieldIt makes no sense to me how an anti-magic field can exist. Or how dragons can breathe fire. Or that there are dragons. Or that there is fire. Once you suspend disbelief in the first place, the rest of the rules are easy!
Moon-Lancer 01-26-06, 06:03 PM	I fully agree. Its all about the imagination.
Wilds 01-26-06, 06:04 PM	there is nothign to beleive, all is possible with will i was always under the presumtion that they threw fire or acid, not unstable magical energy that just happened to be like fire or acid
Esponer 01-26-06, 06:25 PM	there is nothign to beleive, all is possible with will i was always under the presumtion that they threw fire or acid, not unstable magical energy that just happened to be like fire or acid So what holds it together? What propels it? What happens underwater, in a vacuum? Where's the fuel? What happens in an environment low on oxygen, or high on oxygen? Does it change the damage? What exactly is burning? Why is it not immediately raising, due to differences in air pressure? To create a magical fireball, as far as I can tell, this is your bare minimum magical influence: • Magically influencing the particles in the air to heat up rapidly. At this point, you do not have fire, just intense heat (quite possibly a plasma). • Magically influencing the particles not to fly upwards immediately by sealing them (insert nonsensical stuff here explaining how). • Propelling this ball of heat towards the target by creating and maintaining a magical force. • Probably removing the binding which keeps the ball of heat in the shape of a ball once it reaches its target. • Tying an illusion onto the whole thing to make it look like the fireball you actually wanted in the first place. The idea of "unstable ectoplasm" as fire seems to exist in D&D, so perhaps instead the pyromancer is drawing extremely hot plasma from some other plane, rather than heating up the air directly. Linguistically speaking, it's not fire if it doesn't involve the oxidation of a combustible fuel.
Lady Maedhros 01-26-06, 08:19 PM	It's not all that out there to make a houserule that direct damage elemental spells are not subject to spell resistance. I've heard of people doing this (discourages save-or-dies, for one thing), and it makes sense, and it would solve your dragon problem handily, because it basically says that once the fire is created it's no longer magical. However, such things do have quite the impact on game balance. The whole idea of an antimagic field is to provide protection from the otherwise rather overwhelming power of magical effects, particuarly for classes without evasion or spell resistance. Of course AMF is a whole pile of problems already - ask any three DMs what happens when you swing a +1 halberd at someone outside the field while you're within it, and you'll get five answers - so really, there's no actual answer to your problem here. Sorry. :(
Seeker95 01-26-06, 10:18 PM	It's not all that out there to make a houseruleIt's never all that out there to make a houserule about anything. It's just that a lot of people mistake "house rule" and "common sense" for "the rules". The first step in making an effective house rule is to acknowledge "the rule" -- apply common sense if needed, and then clearly identify the house rule. If a DM wants to rule that elemental damage from supernatural abilities is not suppressed in an AMF, great. Just don't be surprised when this house rule is not recognized at the next DM's table.
Lady Maedhros 01-27-06, 12:25 AM	t's never all that out there to make a houserule about anything. Heh. I dunno, i've seen some pretty out there house rules. But of course, it should go without saying that if something is a "reasonable house rule" that it therefore is clearly not RAW. To be sure, magic ignoring Spell Resistance is clearly not RAW. It is, however, the only way i know of to definitively solve goaway's problem. Because the RAW itself is profoundly vague with respect to antimagic fields and how they affect things that cross the border. If you give a [i]fireball a point of origin within an antimagic field, it won't go off. If you stand in an antimagic field and try to cast fireball, it won't go off. That's the only thing the RAW can tell you, with certianty, about fireball and antimagic fields. It's a lot worse when you have a Colossal dragon with one toe in trying to cast a spell at someone elsewhere, but at a very basic level, without some kind of broad houserule about the magical nature of elemental damage, there is simply no RAW answer for the original question as asked.
Ghostwheel 01-27-06, 01:17 AM	if i cast antimagic on myself and then a dragon breaths fire on me would the fire go around the antimagic (since it is a supernatural ability) or would it hit (since it originated outside the field)? basiclly what i'm asking is if the fire itself is supernatural or just the act of creating it. If I were DM: The effect would fail in the area of effect, but would have normal effect outside of the shell. The origin of the spell is a Supernatural ability, and there is nothing that I can find that says that the fire thus produced is of a different nature.
terrainmonkey 01-27-06, 11:15 AM	if you take the RAW train of thought, in answer to this question is yes, the dragon breath would go through the AMF and hit you. the AMF description says, spell like abilites are hampered, not supernatural. so a spell like ability from a dragon would be stopped, but not the dragon breath. a dragon's breath weapon is part of his normal make up and part of his general anatomy. It is part of his core biology, not a spell like effect, like a camel's spit, or a cat's claw. there's no magic about it, it just IS. besides, IMC and probably a lot of other dms out there, a dragon is a powerful creature beyond the abilities of most mortals, even spell casting ones. they are probably one of the most powerful creatures in the game, hell the game is named after them, so it's not totally unreasonable that they would be able to negate most spells a caster had on him anyway. now all this is my opinion, and not really in the rules, so don't go attacking me on this point, please. i just make my dragons a lot more powerful because that's the way i feel about them. IMC if you meet a dragon pucker up because you are probably going to get smoked. they are all ancient and there' sonly about 4 or 5 anyway so my players only have ever met one or 2 at the long end of a career at about 20th level. even then it was a fight for survival. anyway, i've rambled enough. that's my 2 francs.
Esponer 01-27-06, 11:40 AM	Terrainmonkey, Breath Weapon (Su): Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Once a dragon breathes, it can’t breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds. A blast from a breath weapon always starts at any intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon’s choice, with an area as noted on the table below. If the breath weapon deals damage, creatures caught in the area can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage; the DC depends on the dragon’s age and variety, and is given in each individual entry. Saves against nondamaging breath weapons use the same DC; the kind of saving throw is noted in the variety descriptions. The save DC against a breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD + dragon’s Con modifier Supernatural Abilities These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic, and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersDrtoDw.html#true-dragon http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAbilities.html http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsAtoB.html#antimagic-field
terrainmonkey 01-27-06, 12:14 PM	okay, ya got me there. RAW trumps personal opinion. however, that is not how i play my dragon breath weapons. so IMC, what i said still exists. everyone is entitled to play differently.
tarkin 01-27-06, 01:28 PM	It should be noted, that basically you are having dragons produce non-magical fire then, not magical fire. It has some implications for other things. If Dragon Flame is non-magical, then anything that effects non-magical fire should stop it. For example, a Frostbrand sword would extinguish their breath if it was stuck into the fire. I personally think that the RAW view makes a lot more sense than that.
terrainmonkey 01-27-06, 02:04 PM	It should be noted, that basically you are having dragons produce non-magical fire then, not magical fire. It has some implications for other things. If Dragon Flame is non-magical, then anything that effects non-magical fire should stop it. For example, a Frostbrand sword would extinguish their breath if it was stuck into the fire. I personally think that the RAW view makes a lot more sense than that. And i agree totally to the above statement. now, having said that, the RAW is correct in all cases oncerning the question that was raised initially and all of the other arguments that followed. what i am saying, is that in my campaign world, there are only a few "Dragons" and these are mythical beasts that are almost god like, and one could say they have divine ranks. I only use the monster manual dragons as a base line and then advance them to almost divine status, and make the breath weapon a divine supernatural ability that trancends Mortal magic. I do have a race of smaller dragons that i call "wyrms" that are a blend of mega raptors and other dinosaurs that have the half dragon template over them. these do have mundane breath weapons and anything that affects non magical breath weapon types, like your frost brand sword, would affect that as well. call this cheesy, or whatever, my players tend to like the idea, it doesn't come in to play much, and everyone is happy with the rules i have laid down so that's all that counts. my 2 francs
Kursk 01-27-06, 10:54 PM	It makes no sense to me how an anti-magic field can exist. Or how dragons can breathe fire. Or that there are dragons. Or that there is fire. Once you suspend disbelief in the first place, the rest of the rules are easy! Sounds like you are an FRP gamer! :tiphat: