Post/Author/DateTime	Post
redraven 12-20-04, 08:58 PM	Complete Arcane recently came out with the significantly beefed-up Orb of Elements (Orb of Acid, ect) that are now instantaneous conjurations. The question then, is can you cast these into Antimagic Fields? This is somewhat of a subset of the Crystal Shard debate. My gut instinct is that the answer is "No," since not only do Antimagic Fields block Line of Effect, but non-magical Rays seem counter-intuitive. Opinions?
Starmage21 12-20-04, 09:07 PM	An acid arrow winks out of existance if it enters an AMF right? If so, then so do the orbs.
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-20-04, 09:20 PM	Well, they sure did it this time. Anti-Magic Feild has no effect on instantaneous conjurations, becaus ethe spell effect is over and all that is left is the result. This is in the second paragraph of Anti-Magic Feild. So the orbs work normaly, as would Acid Arrow....... This is what they get for messing around with the whole SR idea and not keeping all the attack/damage spells Evocations. BT
Bopple 12-20-04, 09:22 PM	Since Acid Arrow has duration, it's a different case. Acid Arrow doesn't work in AMF. Back to the main post... Many ruleslawyers here, claim that AMF cannot block instantaneous creation spells/powers. (BTW, to my eyes, the spirit of the phrase is, that instantaneous creations don't wink away, unlike summoned ones, not that it blocks every aspect of instantaneous creation) But I haven't seen any DM letting those spells/powers penetrate AMF. They regarded 'ray' as magical, in itself.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 12-21-04, 01:32 AM	Complete Arcane recently came out with the significantly beefed-up Orb of Elements (Orb of Acid, ect) that are now instantaneous conjurations. The question then, is can you cast these into Antimagic Fields? This is somewhat of a subset of the Crystal Shard debate. My gut instinct is that the answer is "No," since not only do Antimagic Fields block Line of Effect, but non-magical Rays seem counter-intuitive. Opinions? What says that Antimagic Fields block line of Effect? If something states that, then yeah, a spell can't be cast into that area. The wording for the spell is funking: Suppress? Nothing (maybe I missed something) clearly states that spells can't be cast into the area. It just says that spells are supressed. It specifically mentions that the Antimagic Field does not dispel magic. So, can I cast haste on someone in the Field? It would be suppressed, sure, but what prohibits targeting? Can I cast OUT of it? If not, what wording within the spell description states such? I almost always like to play by the rules as they appear in the book, but this spell is really messy. Consider these three pieces: "The space is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities." "it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines." "An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." A spell cast from the field with a point of origin outside of field would be... used within the field? Or used outside of the field (since the point of origin is outside the field)? And "impervious." To me, that means "untouched," which would seem to mean, "untargetable," yet there's nothing that specifically says that in nice, happy, rules terminology. I really think it's up the DM. That statement makes me flinch just writing it. -mike the amazing muskrat
digoraccoon 12-21-04, 08:35 AM	You could do what I did and simply rewrite all these new Orb spells as "Evocations" instead of "Conjurations". Considering they seem to fit the bill as evocation spells, none of my players have complained against the ruling.
redraven 12-21-04, 11:39 AM	What says that Antimagic Fields block line of Effect? If something states that, then yeah, a spell can't be cast into that area. Rules of the Game, Reading Spell Descriptions Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a): Line of Effect: A straight, unblocked line between two locations on the battlefield. Line of effect is just like line of sight, except that restrictions on vision don't apply. On the other hand, some things that you can see through can block line of effect, such as a wall of force or an antimagic field. Though the rules don't specifically say so, you always have line of effect to yourself. You could do what I did and simply rewrite all these new Orb spells as "Evocations" instead of "Conjurations". Considering they seem to fit the bill as evocation spells, none of my players have complained against the ruling. Well, they won't complain until you start calling for SR checks with the Orbs.
chonjurer 12-21-04, 06:57 PM	You can't cast this spell through an AMF or a tower shield - same thing. The reason that these are Chonjurations is that WOTC *LOVES* to make acid spells chonjuration (MAA, Mestil's Acid Breath, Acid fog, etc., etc., etc.), despite the fact that energy substitution allows you to make acidic fireballs or acidic versions of any other Evocation spell in the book. Why that is, I will never know. Chonjuration spells bring something that already exists whereas evocation creates from scratch, but it is just as easy to "chonjure" up some acid as it is to "chonjure" up some fire from the elemental plane of fire. Furthermore, you never see dimensional transportation barring spells stopping a Mestil's Acid Breath... but perhaps they should? All in all, it's better to just turn your head to the side and ignore the nut fudge cluster that is spell school designators.
taltamir 12-21-04, 07:29 PM	Well, think of what you are doing... conjuring acid or whatever, its instantanous, you conjured acid, now there is acid. Does normal acid disapear in AMF? does normal fire wink out of existance? To me it sounds as if those spells were DESIGNED to work in an AMF. As long as their level is higher then spells that do the same damage amount and type then its a reasonable deal. higher level to remove one limitation.
chonjurer 12-22-04, 01:24 AM	Well, think of what you are doing... conjuring acid or whatever, its instantanous, you conjured acid, now there is acid. What you forget is that the acid DISAPPEARS after the spell has done its damage. It does not stick around. The same with other chonjuration spells. So it still has some inate magical property that makes it disappear.
taltamir 12-22-04, 01:32 AM	ok, valid enough reason... but how does that work with instant spells? And which school/level/etc would you require such varients to be (ones that actually create real acid that isnt dispellable, and that stays when the spell ends)?
Bloodtide_the_Red 12-22-04, 02:00 AM	..............What you forget is that the acid DISAPPEARS after the spell has done its damage. It does not stick around. The same with other chonjuration spells. So it still has some inate magical property that............. --And I see this as the bigest problem. Acid spells are conjurations, that call some acid over to you(from the Plane of Acid, no doubt). This acid is normal nonmagical, but super strong. As it's 'just acid' it goes right though SR.....but it's not 'just acid', as it has a 'inate magical property' and fades away at the end of the spell duration. So the acid is nonmagical normal acid, with inate magic? Most people would not let this go with other spells, 'Cold Ice-covers some one in ice that does damage every round, but it's normal nonmagical ice, so so SR.' The fact that the spell result disappears at the end of the duration sure makes them sound evocation. BT