Antimagic Field Question.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Antimagic Field Question.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mregecko
10-01-07, 01:59 PM So here's the deal...

I'm intrigued by the concept of applying Extraordinary Spell Aim (complete adv) to an Antimagic Field.

Basically, the deciding factor for if I want to use this tactic is whether there is Line of Effect through an antimagic field.

So, is a caster -- in the center of an Extraordinary Spell Aim'd AMF -- able to be targeted by LoE spells (Magic Missile, Charm Monster, etc)?

My guess is that the answer is "yes", there is LoE, and furthermore, that effects like a Lighning Bolt will be surpressed in the AMF, but reappear momentarily in the center square that the caster occupies.

Thoughts or arguments either way?

On a separate note, any other cool uses for Extraordinary Spell Aim? I'm intrigued by the feat, and think it -sounds- powerful, but can't think of how to use it to best effect.

Thanks,
-- Gecko
Terraneaux
10-01-07, 02:34 PM The wording on AMF is wacky on whether or not it blocks line of effect. I'm tempted to say it does.

Keep in mind that even if it does, orb spells are still fair game.
mregecko
10-01-07, 02:54 PM The wording on AMF is wacky on whether or not it blocks line of effect. I'm tempted to say it does.

Keep in mind that even if it does, orb spells are still fair game.

Good point on the orb spells, but that's kind of why I was intrigued by the idea... If it blocks LoE, then you could throw up a Spell Aim'd AMF, and sling orbs all you want. Unless enemy casters have Orbs too (or a select few other spells), they're screwed.

Even if so, you could still have magic defenses up to defend against elemental attacks...

Of course, this is all moot if LoE isn't blocked.

-- Gecko
Rasmus Wagner
10-01-07, 03:20 PM I'm tempted to say AMF doesn't block line of effect. It's more like, the AMF supresses ALL other magic, on a very deep level, within it's area of effect. It very clearly doesn't dispel or otherwise harm magic - it just supresses it.

To use FR terms, and Lightning Bolt as my example. The spell instructs the Weave to create a lightning effect along this line. The AMF overrides Lightning Bolt with the "no effect here" instructions to the weave, but the weave plots along on the 60' line, ready to pump out the gigavolts as soon as the supression ends.
mvincent
10-01-07, 06:00 PM I'm tempted to say AMF doesn't block line of effect.While it's not in the spell description, it is in other clarifications.

From the 3.0 FAQ:
"Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field."

From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a):
"When a spell is aimed into an area of antimagic from somewhere outside the area, the antimagic blocks line of effect for the spell"
and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a)
"An antimagic effect also blocks line of effect (see Chapter 10 in the Player's Handbook) for any magical ability, though a creature always has line of effect to itself. So a creature with a spell-like ability could use the ability on itself, even in an antimagic field. The magic still would be suppressed while the creature remains inside the antimagic effect, and the creature would gain no benefit from the ability until it left the area of antimagic."
and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a)
"The rules don't tell you what to do when whatever blocks the spread's line of effect isn't a solid object (for example, an antimagic field). In this case, just the treat the antimagic field like a solid obstacle."
and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a)
"some things that you can see through can block line of effect, such as a wall of force or an antimagic field. "
mregecko
10-01-07, 06:07 PM mrvincent...

You are my new best friend.

You may have just saved my & my companion's collective lives. :-P

Yay.

-- Gecko
Sexy_ferret
10-01-07, 06:50 PM Ok sorry for stealing the thread. But I think it would save space so i dont end up wasting lots of peoples time. Its about anti magic field

Ok say a Creature that has a 15' Reach ( doesnt matter how he has it. Hes a large tall creature with a spiked chain, Maybe hes just huge. I dont care how its done it just is, Lets use the large creature with a spiked chain for this one)

Ok so said spiked chain has an enhancement on it. Now Person with long reach has now cast anti magic field. So now he has a 10' field that absorbs his magic or supresses it. Who cares what it does magic just does not exist in that 10' area.

Ok now said creature attacks another creature 15' away. Since his magical weapon is leaving the area of the anti magic. What happens? Does the whole weapon have to be outside of the anti magic field to work? If so Where does it say? Gm's call? What would you all say?
mvincent
10-01-07, 07:21 PM Ok now said creature attacks another creature 15' away. Since his magical weapon is leaving the area of the anti magic. What happens?From the 3.5 FAQ:
"If I attack from inside an antimagic field (PH 200) using
a magic weapon, do I gain the benefit of the weapon if the
target is outside the antimagic field? What about if I attack
from outside against a target inside?
In neither case does the weapon’s benefit apply. Both the
attacker and the target must be outside the antimagic field for
any magic of the weapon (or other effects) to apply. (If you
made a ranged attack across an antimagic field—that is, from
outside the area, across some part of the spell’s area, against
another target outside the area—the attack would resolve
normally.)"
Chardre
10-02-07, 12:04 AM The moral of this story being look in the faq beforehand.
Rasmus Wagner
10-02-07, 03:07 PM While it's not in the spell description, it is in other clarifications.

From the 3.0 FAQ:
"Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field."

But that's a 3.0 FAQ, and......ah, **** it. Nice bit of research and a perfectly sensible ruling.
mvincent
10-02-07, 03:11 PM But that's a 3.0 FAQEven without the 3.5 RotG references, 3.0 clarifications still apply until shown otherwise (look here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-758553) for a discussion on it)
Azuth
10-02-07, 05:39 PM I'd still say that Rasmus has a good point though.

The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target.

I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell.

-Azuth
mvincent
10-02-07, 05:53 PM The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target.Skip William's clarification covers casting a spell through an AMF (i.e. at someone on the other side that is also not in the field), which is a common enough situation with a regular AMF. A shell AMF would be no different.

I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell.An AMF shell (from Archmages Mastery of Shaping or somesuch) can provide excellent protection from being targeted by spells (that kinda it's whole pupose). However, allowing spells to pass through it could become cheesier than that (as a mage that has cast this on himself would have an excellent boon vs. melee opponents without the normal hindrance to his casting abilities).
mregecko
10-02-07, 10:05 PM I'd still say that Rasmus has a good point though.

The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target.

I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell.

-Azuth

As for the difference between a Shell and an Area, I think mrvincent addressed that as well as I could.

I don't know if I'd call this horrible cheese. You're basically making yourself useless for an encounter -- except for Orbs and teleportation, there's not much you can do without Line of Effect. I have no orbs, soooo.... It's basically to protect myself and still keep my buffs up in case of ranged attacks or grapples.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mregecko 10-01-07, 01:59 PM	So here's the deal... I'm intrigued by the concept of applying Extraordinary Spell Aim (complete adv) to an Antimagic Field. Basically, the deciding factor for if I want to use this tactic is whether there is Line of Effect through an antimagic field. So, is a caster -- in the center of an Extraordinary Spell Aim'd AMF -- able to be targeted by LoE spells (Magic Missile, Charm Monster, etc)? My guess is that the answer is "yes", there is LoE, and furthermore, that effects like a Lighning Bolt will be surpressed in the AMF, but reappear momentarily in the center square that the caster occupies. Thoughts or arguments either way? On a separate note, any other cool uses for Extraordinary Spell Aim? I'm intrigued by the feat, and think it -sounds- powerful, but can't think of how to use it to best effect. Thanks, -- Gecko
Terraneaux 10-01-07, 02:34 PM	The wording on AMF is wacky on whether or not it blocks line of effect. I'm tempted to say it does. Keep in mind that even if it does, orb spells are still fair game.
mregecko 10-01-07, 02:54 PM	The wording on AMF is wacky on whether or not it blocks line of effect. I'm tempted to say it does. Keep in mind that even if it does, orb spells are still fair game. Good point on the orb spells, but that's kind of why I was intrigued by the idea... If it blocks LoE, then you could throw up a Spell Aim'd AMF, and sling orbs all you want. Unless enemy casters have Orbs too (or a select few other spells), they're screwed. Even if so, you could still have magic defenses up to defend against elemental attacks... Of course, this is all moot if LoE isn't blocked. -- Gecko
Rasmus Wagner 10-01-07, 03:20 PM	I'm tempted to say AMF doesn't block line of effect. It's more like, the AMF supresses ALL other magic, on a very deep level, within it's area of effect. It very clearly doesn't dispel or otherwise harm magic - it just supresses it. To use FR terms, and Lightning Bolt as my example. The spell instructs the Weave to create a lightning effect along this line. The AMF overrides Lightning Bolt with the "no effect here" instructions to the weave, but the weave plots along on the 60' line, ready to pump out the gigavolts as soon as the supression ends.
mvincent 10-01-07, 06:00 PM	I'm tempted to say AMF doesn't block line of effect.While it's not in the spell description, it is in other clarifications. From the 3.0 FAQ: "Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field." From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a): "When a spell is aimed into an area of antimagic from somewhere outside the area, the antimagic blocks line of effect for the spell" and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a) "An antimagic effect also blocks line of effect (see Chapter 10 in the Player's Handbook) for any magical ability, though a creature always has line of effect to itself. So a creature with a spell-like ability could use the ability on itself, even in an antimagic field. The magic still would be suppressed while the creature remains inside the antimagic effect, and the creature would gain no benefit from the ability until it left the area of antimagic." and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a) "The rules don't tell you what to do when whatever blocks the spread's line of effect isn't a solid object (for example, an antimagic field). In this case, just the treat the antimagic field like a solid obstacle." and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a) "some things that you can see through can block line of effect, such as a wall of force or an antimagic field. "
mregecko 10-01-07, 06:07 PM	mrvincent... You are my new best friend. You may have just saved my & my companion's collective lives. :-P Yay. -- Gecko
Sexy_ferret 10-01-07, 06:50 PM	Ok sorry for stealing the thread. But I think it would save space so i dont end up wasting lots of peoples time. Its about anti magic field Ok say a Creature that has a 15' Reach ( doesnt matter how he has it. Hes a large tall creature with a spiked chain, Maybe hes just huge. I dont care how its done it just is, Lets use the large creature with a spiked chain for this one) Ok so said spiked chain has an enhancement on it. Now Person with long reach has now cast anti magic field. So now he has a 10' field that absorbs his magic or supresses it. Who cares what it does magic just does not exist in that 10' area. Ok now said creature attacks another creature 15' away. Since his magical weapon is leaving the area of the anti magic. What happens? Does the whole weapon have to be outside of the anti magic field to work? If so Where does it say? Gm's call? What would you all say?
mvincent 10-01-07, 07:21 PM	Ok now said creature attacks another creature 15' away. Since his magical weapon is leaving the area of the anti magic. What happens?From the 3.5 FAQ: "If I attack from inside an antimagic field (PH 200) using a magic weapon, do I gain the benefit of the weapon if the target is outside the antimagic field? What about if I attack from outside against a target inside? In neither case does the weapon’s benefit apply. Both the attacker and the target must be outside the antimagic field for any magic of the weapon (or other effects) to apply. (If you made a ranged attack across an antimagic field—that is, from outside the area, across some part of the spell’s area, against another target outside the area—the attack would resolve normally.)"
Chardre 10-02-07, 12:04 AM	The moral of this story being look in the faq beforehand.
Rasmus Wagner 10-02-07, 03:07 PM	While it's not in the spell description, it is in other clarifications. From the 3.0 FAQ: "Note that the antimagic field blocks line of effect, so an area cannot extend through the antimagic field." But that's a 3.0 FAQ, and......ah, **** it. Nice bit of research and a perfectly sensible ruling.
mvincent 10-02-07, 03:11 PM	But that's a 3.0 FAQEven without the 3.5 RotG references, 3.0 clarifications still apply until shown otherwise (look here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-758553) for a discussion on it)
Azuth 10-02-07, 05:39 PM	I'd still say that Rasmus has a good point though. The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target. I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell. -Azuth
mvincent 10-02-07, 05:53 PM	The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target.Skip William's clarification covers casting a spell through an AMF (i.e. at someone on the other side that is also not in the field), which is a common enough situation with a regular AMF. A shell AMF would be no different. I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell.An AMF shell (from Archmages Mastery of Shaping or somesuch) can provide excellent protection from being targeted by spells (that kinda it's whole pupose). However, allowing spells to pass through it could become cheesier than that (as a mage that has cast this on himself would have an excellent boon vs. melee opponents without the normal hindrance to his casting abilities).
mregecko 10-02-07, 10:05 PM	I'd still say that Rasmus has a good point though. The answers from the FAQ seems to assume that we're talking about a regular AMF, that covers the whole area - not an AMF that acts like a shell around the caster/target. I'd be inclined to rule that it wouldn't block line of effect in such a casting, simply to avoid the horrible cheese mregecko is planning with this use of the spell. -Azuth As for the difference between a Shell and an Area, I think mrvincent addressed that as well as I could. I don't know if I'd call this horrible cheese. You're basically making yourself useless for an encounter -- except for Orbs and teleportation, there's not much you can do without Line of Effect. I have no orbs, soooo.... It's basically to protect myself and still keep my buffs up in case of ranged attacks or grapples.